44.4

[RindaR]

Might the dark side of this one refer to an incestuous relationship?

 

[Trojina]

I think theres just no fish

 

[bruce_g]

A nice take on 44,like that one. But it's also the relation between the father and the eldest daughter.
On trigram is metal and the other is wood. The inside the daughter and the outside the father. Feelings on the outside and the continuaty of growht on the inside.
And a changing line on the 4 the line of the heart.
Like the father who is giving the fertility to the daughter. As being the idea that the daughter is the dream of the father and especially the eldest one as being the only daughter who is female on earth and in heaven.

I didn't use the father/daughter symbolism because, as Rinda said, it implies incest. I think the father/eldest daughter image can apply, such as in your example, but not in a sexual context. Same with 31, where the youngest son and daughter get it on, and same for 32, where the eldest son and daughter marry. These can as easily reflect relationships between man and woman, without the family ties shown elsewhere, as in 37.

 

[bruce_g]

I think theres just no fish

lol.. nope, just no fish. Frank and I are just playing in the pond.

 

[maremaria]

lol.. nope, just no fish. Frank and I are just playing in the pond.

Hi,
Can you, Frank, or everyone "play" a little more on the father-daughter aspect of 44.4 ?

maria

 

[bruce_g]

Hi,
Can you, Frank, or everyone "play" a little more on the father-daughter aspect of 44.4 ?

maria

There is (said to be) a hierarchy within the trigrams which can be contextually linked to members of the Family. Bear in mind, this is later development stuff, as are many things we now associate with the Yijing. Anyway, the order looks like this:

heaven/father
earth/mother
thunder/eldest son
water/middle son
mountain/youngest son
wind/eldest daughter
fire/middle daughter
lake/youngest daughter

Is this what you mean, or do you mean only regard heaven/wind?

 

[maremaria]

Is this what you mean, or do you mean only regard heaven/wind?

Only heaven/wind . I took a quick look on what you and Frank said about this relationships and I'ld like, if you can, to elaborate it.

 

[bruce_g]

Not sure what you're looking for here, Maria. I don't see the Yi as spelling a single story in a literal and fixed way. If you examine the nature of hexagram 1 (both positive and negative sides), and then do the same with hex. 57,then position heaven trigram above wind trigram, you have the elements which are at play in 44. How this applies specifically depends on what specifically you are applying it to: the question.

 

[bruce_g]

Basically, Maria, I constructed/paralleled a story, using the trigrams to give dynamics to the characters, and adding a plot, which was the Garden of Eden, fall of man, etc. I think it applies very well. All myth is based on idiosyncratic features of the characters; in this case heaven/wind or father/eldest daughter.

 

[bruce_g]

Here's another parallel story, just off the top of my head: The Sound of Music. The Captain is an archetype of the hex 1 father: stern, forceful, directing force, overseer, etc. The eldest daughter (don't recall her name) fell in love with a handsome young man. The father did not approve, which created tension between them. It took a special 54 maiden (Maria, played by Julie Andrews) to act as the buffing influence.

Yi gives us the characters, we write the stories.

 

[bruce_g]

What if the story had an awful father, who subjected his oldest daughter to abuse, like the story which Rinda wrote?

 

[frank_r]

Hi,
Can you, Frank, or everyone "play" a little more on the father-daughter aspect of 44.4 ?

maria

Hello Maria,

bao / wrapping is a term they also use in acupuncture it´s like enveloping something.
So a text writen by Claude Larre and elisabeth Rochat De La Vallee is saying " The vital protection which is bao, is here like the inner mechanisme of the storage of the original, authentic essence of life" .

So bao can be related to the uterus, as the envelop of the foetos, but also the bao of the heart, the envelop, the protection of the heart. Protection of the void.

In the text of line 4 there is written that the envelop has no fish, no yin so there is no protection of the deepest yin,.
Line 4 the line of the heart has no protection of the deepest yin, the female fertility is not protected.

44 is also the hexagram in the chinese clock of the heart itself, the void where the spirits have there dwelling.
44 as being the instincts give the woman not enough protection so the heart can be damaged and the result can be infertility.

From the father the daughter can learn how to use her instincts which man can be trusted or not. So she can learn how to open her heart and to whom be fertile.

Wu Jing Nuan is writing at line 4.

" A bag without a fish, the beginning of misfortune. The bag without a fish is a sign of infertility.

 

[maremaria]

Bruce & Frank,
thank you for your replies. Give me some time to think about and I'll be back.

maria

 

[maremaria]

What if the story had an awful father, who subjected his oldest daughter to abuse, like the story which Rinda wrote?

I'm moved by the gentle way you posted that question. And I'm really touched from the thoughtful, watchful, full of concern (imo) manners of yours. No, this is not a story like the one Rinda wrote, But it has a lot of 18.

You said "Not sure what you're looking for here, Maria." I don't know or I know perfectly what I am looking. Both can be true.
- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Some thoughts ......

It is amazing how this thread began wondering what stands for the "fish" and how it turned. And this "game" of Bruce and Frank opened a window and ligth make vissible a issue I wasn't expteced to see at 44.4 .
I had a feeling that the fish is not the impotrant issue here but the tank. Why we don't open the bag and let the fish enter. To protect ourselfs from the damage the fish can do ?
If you love me, don't love me. I have a tank but sorry "fish" I can let you come in.
"be fertile or not" is the desicion should be taken.
To eat the apple or not? To loss "paradise" or not ?

Btw , Fish was the nichname of my ex. This is how I call him when I couldn't tell his name(as you migth recall was kind of a secret relationship ).
The question wasn't about him but about a "horse"

 

[bruce_g]

Maria, it is you who are kind. Thank you.

For about the last 3-4 years, my view of 44 has gone from foreboding to potentially creatively fulfilling. Not everyone agrees, and that's fine. It's a dangerous time, yes, but what is worth venturing that doesn't include elements of risk and danger?

Just look at the understandings of yourself which comes to the surface though this hexagram. Is this not a work of creation? "If you love me, don't love me." A beautiful interpretation of no fish in the tank.

Now comes the real work and question: What will you do with this yet unborn colt?

 

[charly]

... I had a feeling that the fish is not the impotrant issue here but the tank. Why we don't open the bag and let the fish enter. To protect ourselfs from the damage the fish can do ?
If you love me, don't love me. I have a tank but sorry "fish" I can let you come in.
"be fertile or not" is the desicion should be taken.
To eat the apple or not? To loss "paradise" or not ? ...

Hi, María:

I undesrtand that the sort of fish you speak of fits pretty well, but I believe that, for translation purposes, the baby option fits best. also believe that 包bao, as Harmen says, is an action, maybe it could be translated as embracing (with all the sort of meanings that you could imagine).

44.4 (temporary):
包 bao1 embracing
无 wu2 without
魚 yu2 «fish»
起 qi3 begining
凶 xiong1 unlucky

I believe with Wu Jing-Nuan that the line speaks of infertility.

But also believe that all the 44 hexagram had suffered a sort of censorship because it speaks about most earlier marriage customs than that of the elites wich rites survive until our days: the peasant marriage customs.

The peasant marriage took place only when the girl was pregnant. If no pregnancy, no future for the couple as family.

The sexual act, as a hard proof for girls and boys becoming adults having descendants was turned in a sort of deshonest encounter in the later confucian morality. The ancient rite was demonized, but remains active at certain ethnic minorities.

I believe that if a meaning is not too clear it is a proof that is not consistent with dominant ideology. ZhouYi surely didn't want to speak about later morality but about earlier hidden facts much more meaningful for people.

44.2:
包 bao1 embracing
有 you3 having
魚 yu2 fish
无 wu2 no
咎 jiu4 wrong
不 bu4 [but] no
利 li4 profitable
賓 bin1 [for the] guest (1)

If the girl is already pregnant no profit added for the boy, but it's no wrong.

The «fish» is the baby, the character ZI is like a little Sweepea(2):

Do you think so?

Yours,

Charly

------------------------------------------------
(1) Sears says: «one who comes into the house...»
http://www.chineseetymology.org/Cha...aspx?characterInput=賓&submitButton1=Etymology
(2) Cocoliso in spanish, could very well remind us another little boy.

 

[maremaria]

........tomorrow we will run faster, stretch out our arms farther. . . . And then one fine morning—



...So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past.

(Great Gasby, F.S.Fitzgerland)

 

[maremaria]

Thank you all for your ideas and insigths.
Maria

 

[dragona]

Hello, I realise this is an old thread, but it is interesting as well as confusing to me, so I feel i should add my bit to this.
I got 44.4 as an answer how to act in order to fix/restart an halted communication..It looks as "there is just no fish" - person in question is an Piscies, but it says I should meet half way and to me it seams the other way arround...also LiSe speaks of lack of creativity and re-examining the potentials of things.
It was said in the discussion here that it is about action, not an fixed situation.

All of that made me ask: What kind of action is described in hex 44.4? 21 unchanged
Biting through is an hex speaking of action, solving the issue-one way or another, as soon as possible. Perhaps YI was refering to my problem particularily-lots of talk of resolving and clearing the air I got on this situation, but if we are to go after explanation as hex 21 (the way I see it), it is not an hopelesly dragging situation then?
Anyway, a woid asks to be fulfilled...it is in its nature.

 

[miakoda]

I just read this thread. It's a little late to jump in, I suppose, but I'm curious about the practical experiences others have had with these lines. I've always had a sense of these two lines in the context of food:

44.4: When there's no fish in the wrapping, there's nothing here that will feed you

but...

57.4 In the fields you will find three kinds of game.

So, it's advantageous to look beyond your immediate situation and have an expectation of sustenance from other sources.

Has anyone had any experiences with these lines?

Miakoda

 

[ianek]

If you read line two of 44 in the commentary of Wilhelm he states 'the fish likewise belongs to the yin principle.'

It’s very strange. According to Freud fish is a phallic symbol as a snake, so it, must be yang not yin.

 

[Tohpol]

It’s very strange. According to Freud fish is a phallic symbol as a snake, so it, must be yang not yin.

Then again, I wouldn't place too much importance on Freud. If he could find something phallic in a pair of slippers, he would.

 

[sooo]

Then again, I wouldn't place too much importance on Freud. If he could find something phallic in a pair of slippers, he would.

There are usually five little phallic piggies in a slipper, ten in a pair. A little phallic can be found in women too - the little yang in the yin. Freud was such a perv, or maybe I'm just projecting.

 

[ianek]

Then again, I wouldn't place too much importance on Freud. If he could find something phallic in a pair of slippers, he would.

If you read his “Introduction to Psychoanalysis” you know how logical he was deriving conclusions. I think widespread neglecting of Freud comes from simplification and distortion of his ideas. The simple fact is that a few read his books and most people just reproduce cliché. Of course, from 1900 many aspects of collective unconscious have changed but it was Freud who discovered for us that the unconscious exists.

 

[Tohpol]

If you read his “Introduction to Psychoanalysis” you know how logical he was deriving conclusions. I think widespread neglecting of Freud comes from simplification and distortion of his ideas. The simple fact is that a few read his books and most people just reproduce cliché. Of course, from 1900 many aspects of collective unconscious have changed but it was Freud who discovered for us that the unconscious exists.

Well, understand what you're saying here but I think it's more complex than that. However logical one's conclusions are they can be riven with emotion and subjective bias after all no? Psychoanalysis is no different and the very basis fundamentally flawed, in my view. I happen to think almost everything he perceived as meaningful was seriously distorted not by those who came after him (though many have used his pathology to promote similar distortions) but from his own psychology.

I was never drawn to psychoanalysis and wanted to know why it didn't feel right to me so I researched it extensively.(I know that he is still revered in countries like France especially). To explain a little the reasons for my thinking, at least in part, I'd recommend three books: (one in French - Are you French?)

Induced delusions: The psychopathy of Freudism

The Psychoanalytic Movement: The Cunning of Unreason

Michel Onfray Le crépuscule d'une idole-l'affabulation freudienne

Oops. Hijacking 44 thread. Sorry....

 

[kestrelw1ngs]

44 as being the instincts give the woman not enough protection so the heart can be damaged and the result can be infertility.

From the father the daughter can learn how to use her instincts which man can be trusted or not. So she can learn how to open her heart and to whom be fertile.

I know this is an old thread but recently got 44.4 when asking "how do I deal with my anger appropriately?"

this father-daughter connection is very illuminating as the query involved sexual infidelity/trusting non-committal partners.

not asking for help interpreting or I'd start a thread, just found the themes here very helpful as my initial interpretation was off base and this clarified it. originally thought that 44.4 was implying my anger somehow drove off the 'fish' or creative loving spirit of the relationship, in retrospect makes much more sense that Yi could be saying not to underestimate the creative power of rage, pointing to some deeper goings-on.
the image of an irritant or 'worthless' seed such as carbon or sand, with the potential to become a diamond or a pearl, but it is not protected and is lost...

44.4 could have not having enough protective instinct to choose wisely, heart damage.

 

[kestrelw1ngs]

I just read this thread. It's a little late to jump in, I suppose, but I'm curious about the practical experiences others have had with these lines. I've always had a sense of these two lines in the context of food:

44.4: When there's no fish in the wrapping, there's nothing here that will feed you

but...

57.4 In the fields you will find three kinds of game.

So, it's advantageous to look beyond your immediate situation and have an expectation of sustenance from other sources.

Has anyone had any experiences with these lines?

Miakoda

I have received both lines in separate readings recently. for 57.4 line 6 was also involved, leading to 28 (too much)
I interpreted as there was an opportunity to choose better, but overthinking (57.6) and digging too deep obscured the simple, modest action of choosing between the three types of game available.

With your interpretation of 44.4 it could have also meant the anger in my question held nothing nourishing.

the practical situation is embarrassing. involved my hurt & anger at a partner seeking other sexual partners, feeling stuck in the relationship and allowing this unpleasant scenario to keep the peace. after an opportunity to end the relationship came and passed.
i ended up getting so exhausted by processing my feelings with a friend and myself, i gave up on communicating them.

both lines were relating to this situation.

 

[The Hermit]

Loved this thread, Thanks. My two cents,

IMHO, hex 44´s essence is really about the meeting of two parties. One is a wild undomesticated cunning yin line, empowered and in command of her sexuality, unlike her more docile sisters. This "temptation" made flesh, will meet with every single yang line above, until she manages to stripped away all masculinity when she becomes hex 2, after kicking the last yang line, position 6 (the sage) of hex 23 out of his position, replacing him with the newborn royal heir. She begins postrating herself very humbly before the 5 yang lines, and here comes the cunning part, she has no intention to keep still as a yin line should, because of her position 1, masculine, which compels her to move.

We have a natural tendency to focus on her, but the name of the hex is very precise. Its a meeting and its about the relationship she creates with yang lines 2 to 6. The second line, 44.2 as it changes to yin, will lead to hex 33, Retreat. In 44.2, the young querent has sex with her and tries to keep it on the hush. But he gets her pregnant. He tries to flee from his responsibilites but can´t and becomes yin. The other 4 yang lines (the guests) are waiting anxious for their turn.

When she arrives to the next yang line 3, who is unable to restrain his lust, and will try to take her by force with no success, things are looking grimm for maledom. To the point that line 3 feels deeply ashamed for not being the one who got her pregnant. He also turns into yin. From here, hex 12, things will get worse for yang. Yin has taken over the trigram below, turning the unmovable macho dominant tradition (mountain) into something feminine and fertile, like earth.

She will now move to engage with line 4, but as she checks him out, she can see that he has no intention to honor her, treating her as inferior, through indiference. Her response will be hex 20, no more sex, she is already pregnant, and her belly is showing off. After subduing him and turning line 4 into yin, she will now try to topple the King, the alpha male on pos 5, by asking him to accept her as bride, as she is bringing to life a possible heir. The King will accept her and after line 5 changes to yin, her status becomes close to hex 44.5 and her influence is now very powerful, she becomes a Queen.

When she intents to get to the top of the hexgram 23, which will turn into hex 2, she encounters the sage, who will also fall into her hands, but will also educate her, so she has manners and can dignify her post as Queen. A good example would be the movie "My fair lady". The end of pregnancy is seen in line 6 of hexagram 23, where the superior man rides over evil (temptation or untamed yin), turning our once wild undomesticated female into a queen, and she has now transport and a comfortable place to nourish her child. The strongwilled female becomes a mare, following the laws of Hex 1. From there, in hex 24, masculinity recovers its poise and returns to the correct path.

So, in a nutshell. 44.2 is pleasant sex, where the young male intent is to hide the female from other males, trying to keep her for himself. But he has neither the experience nor the skills to tame her or respect her power, less to confront stronger males. She on the other hand, has sex as tool for seduction and gaining influence, and pregnancy to establish her position in high society. 44.4 is an older man, with power, but full of contempt for her freedom in sexuality. He won´t get any and she will offer herself to the highest of them all (line 5) to bring her child to safety.

I am sure, many will disagree with my story, but thats ok, its fiction, don't worry, you can make what you want from it. But maybe you can also shift your view of hex 44 from this dangerous femme fatale into something more organic, less dogmatic and more human. It is my opinion that SHE lives in each and every woman on Earth, ready to wield her power to counteract excessive masculinity and to secure her children´s safety from uncontrolled male or female violence against infancy. She is the beautiful and fearless peasant girl, able to manipulate and use men´s vicious lust and her reward is becoming a Queen on her own right.

 

[Sara369]

Loved this thread, Thanks. My two cents,

IMHO, hex 44´s essence is really about the meeting of two parties. One is a wild undomesticated cunning yin line, empowered and in command of her sexuality, unlike her more docile sisters. This "temptation" made flesh, will meet with every single yang line above, until she manages to stripped away all masculinity when she becomes hex 2, after kicking the last yang line, position 6 (the sage) of hex 23 out of his position, replacing him with the newborn royal heir. She begins postrating herself very humbly before the 5 yang lines, and here comes the cunning part, she has no intention to keep still as a yin line should, because of her position 1, masculine, which compels her to move.

We have a natural tendency to focus on her, but the name of the hex is very precise. Its a meeting and its about the relationship she creates with yang lines 2 to 6. The second line, 44.2 as it changes to yin, will lead to hex 33, Retreat. In 44.2, the young querent has sex with her and tries to keep it on the hush. But he gets her pregnant. He tries to flee from his responsibilites but can´t and becomes yin. The other 4 yang lines (the guests) are waiting anxious for their turn.

When she arrives to the next yang line 3, who is unable to restrain his lust, and will try to take her by force with no success, things are looking grimm for maledom. To the point that line 3 feels deeply ashamed for not being the one who got her pregnant. He also turns into yin. From here, hex 12, things will get worse for yang. Yin has taken over the trigram below, turning the unmovable macho dominant tradition (mountain) into something feminine and fertile, like earth.

She will now move to engage with line 4, but as she checks him out, she can see that he has no intention to honor her, treating her as inferior, through indiference. Her response will be hex 20, no more sex, she is already pregnant, and her belly is showing off. After subduing him and turning line 4 into yin, she will now try to topple the King, the alpha male on pos 5, by asking him to accept her as bride, as she is bringing to life a possible heir. The King will accept her and after line 5 changes to yin, her status becomes close to hex 44.5 and her influence is now very powerful, she becomes a Queen.

When she intents to get to the top of the hexgram 23, which will turn into hex 2, she encounters the sage, who will also fall into her hands, but will also educate her, so she has manners and can dignify her post as Queen. A good example would be the movie "My fair lady". The end of pregnancy is seen in line 6 of hexagram 23, where the superior man rides over evil (temptation or untamed yin), turning our once wild undomesticated female into a queen, and she has now transport and a comfortable place to nourish her child. The strongwilled female becomes a mare, following the laws of Hex 1. From there, in hex 24, masculinity recovers its poise and returns to the correct path.

So, in a nutshell. 44.2 is pleasant sex, where the young male intent is to hide the female from other males, trying to keep her for himself. But he has neither the experience nor the skills to tame her or respect her power, less to confront stronger males. She on the other hand, has sex as tool for seduction and gaining influence, and pregnancy to establish her position in high society. 44.4 is an older man, with power, but full of contempt for her freedom in sexuality. He won´t get any and she will offer herself to the highest of them all (line 5) to bring her child to safety.

I am sure, many will disagree with my story, but thats ok, its fiction, don't worry, you can make what you want from it. But maybe you can also shift your view of hex 44 from this dangerous femme fatale into something more organic, less dogmatic and more human. It is my opinion that SHE lives in each and every woman on Earth, ready to wield her power to counteract excessive masculinity and to secure her children´s safety from uncontrolled male or female violence against infancy. She is the beautiful and fearless peasant girl, able to manipulate and use men´s vicious lust and her reward is becoming a Queen on her own right.

I know you wrote this a few months ago, but I recently posted a reading where I got this hexagram and I’ve been trying to understand it better. Just wanted to say that this was such a treat to read, so well written and insightful, thank you.

 

[my_key]

It is my opinion that SHE lives in each and every woman on Earth, ready to wield her power to counteract excessive masculinity and to secure her children´s safety from uncontrolled male or female violence against infancy.

I would hazard a guess that she resides deep in every man on earth too.