44. Kou / Coming to Meet

[em ching]

Yes it is a shame that human beings are so needy but maybe if we weren't nothing would be said, created, learnt - life may not spring forth!
Could Coming to Meet just mean that this person or force will teach you things and propell you on the road to personal development - so encouraging you to make contact and experiment - but that the inlfluence could be temporary and should not be relied upon as a permanent, reliable fixture? If you prepare yourself that that person or element may not wholly satisfy your desires and needs forever you will however benefit in the short term? Wheras say, 53 Gradual Development speaks of lasting influence, loyaly, equality and so love?

 

[meng]

Nothing new from me here to anyone whose been around this board awhile. I'm one of the conspirators, plotting to bend this wicked, evil hex 44 into some kind of positive spin of my own wishes.

be that as it may...

Maria, loved your example, and interesting to see who played what part in the play.

Even with no one else involved, those same dynamics can play out internally. We get to play out both parts, as in a dream.

I think by nature (and I don't think I'm being cynical here), we humans are tenfold more aware of doing wrong than doing right, ten times more likely to criticize ourselves rather than complement ourselves. We're more likely to pray for something we want or need than to acknowledge blessings we've received. I think this is why people get into perceiving this or that hexagram as being negative. If they would try catching the hexagram in the act of doing something positive, or even better, catch themselves in the act of doing something positive with that hexagram, their perception of the hexagram would change. It's self conditioning to perceive a natural phenomenon as a negative. Is wind negative? It can destroy life, but it's also responsible for renewing it. Life needs to be stirred by the wind or it decays.

To me it's so silly to heap big negative coats over any hexagram, and positive ones likewise. This one good, that one bad. Can't learn from it or make sense of it that way, much less issue commands from it, and it's simply not a realistic view of nature.

I view all 64 hexagrams as personal friends, even ones that aren't easy or comfy to be around, such as 10, 23, 28, 33, 36, 38, 39, 41 or 44. The difficult ones have the most to teach, I've found.

 

[rosada]

Looking at the sequence of the hexagrams, it seems to me that 43 is about negotiating, speaking up and being straight forward. 44 then seems to describe situations where the influences are not so above board, or maybe where the ideas are so foreign that it's not possible to have a straight forward negotiation. If you asked "Should I rent a room to this person?" and received 43 I think you'd feel you could negotiate a rental agreement that both of you could agree to. But if you received 44 I think you're being told that much as you both might like to have a clear contract, you would find there were hidden adgendas perhaps neither one of you are aware of.
It seems to me 44 is all about resisting new ideas and then finally, if the resistance is overcome, finding the new idea isn't such a bad thing after all.
So at the beginning 44.1 seems to advise not letting the new idea in. Or perhaps it's not letting fear or negativity in.

 

[mudpie]

In terms of a man approachng a woman, 44 would have to advise caution .

I agree with what Trojan said in previous thread ...

And true to the nature of 44 we have got sucked in by over sexualising its message. 44 is about all sorts of things in life that are pushy, intrusive, demanding of our energy, which will ultimately drain us if we give it too much space in our life.

BUt applying this to a creative project is a different ballgame. No pun intended. Any kind of art is a jealous mistress, as someone once said. If you are a creative, an artist, you get horny for your creativity. And when the impulse comes, well, you better know you are getting near the spider web...it's gonna take you in and spin you around and you're certainly not gonna have room for guests...you might well become a crazed person with one end in mind. BUt without this 44 kind of activity, and the willingness to be taken alive, there'd be no Beethoven symphonies, no Jackson Pollack paintings, etc etc, etc ...in which case while it may drain you, it produces "the child," creates new life

 

[rosada]

Oh well said, Listener (and trojan!).

This hexagram inspires thoughts in so many directions...

Thinking about how 44 saying the maiden is powerful. Why is the maiden powerful? The only "power" the yin force has is to not resist. Thus it seems we're dealing with the power of non-resistance. So does this mean we're in a situation where we're being warned that any idea we give attention to will manifest - and that this may not be a good thing, because not all ideas are good?

Thinking about 44.1 and it's caution to perseveringly check the intrusive influence. As this line leads to The Creative, it seems to me we are being advised at this point we can still keep on our course, we can still not let in any idea that would keep us from fulfilling the advice of the hex. 1 image, to make ourselves "strong and untiring." At line one, we are still outside the influence, we can still simply choose to not eat the apple.

 

[getojack]

蹢 zhi2 [???]
躅 zhu2 [???]

The LEAN PIGS CATCH the «ZHI-ZHU»
Who are the Len-Pigs? Len Pigs are WE, the needy human beings, mainly the needy men. What ZHI-ZHU means? UNKNOWN.
The needy men (or needy human beings) catch the unknown!

Hi Charly,

There's another zhi-zhu, pronounced the same, but with a slightly different first character here... which means "walk to and fro; loiter around", written 踯躅

The lines of 44.1 substitute 蹢, or "hoof" in place of 踯, or "waver; hesitate" getting a meaning for 蹢躅 along the lines of "scampering around"... a phrase used more frequently in English in the context of small animals and children, which seems appropriate for the skinny pig on the hoof in 44.1

 

[martin]

It seems to me 44 is all about resisting new ideas and then finally, if the resistance is overcome, finding the new idea isn't such a bad thing after all.
So at the beginning 44.1 seems to advise not letting the new idea in. Or perhaps it's not letting fear or negativity in.

"new ideas" fits well with my astrological translation of this hexagram: Mercury (wind) aspected or transited by Uranus (heaven). Unconventional, original, excentric, oddball, inspired, brilliant or just plain insane.
Mercury also covers traffic, communication, trade, travel, and so on, so 44 could also refer to something new, unconventional, crazy, etcetera, in those areas.

44.1: Are you nuts?! This is an insane idea! Get a hold of yourself!

 

[meng]

Rosada and Martin, that seems right to me, although not an "idea" by itself; more often I experience it/her as feeling. Or, a big feeling from an idea, or an idea from a big feeling. Which really makes sense, if one considers the interplay of wind and heaven. The way the interplay is conducted is what makes it so potentially dangerous, in that wind presumes and imposes her will upon heaven. But the commands we're told to issue (as far as I understand it) come from the ruler, not from the maiden. It's a really power-trippy hexagram.

 

[maremaria]

"new ideas" fits well with my astrological translation of this hexagram: Mercury (wind) aspected or transited by Uranus (heaven). Unconventional, original, excentric, oddball, inspired, brilliant or just plain insane.
Mercury also covers traffic, communication, trade, travel, and so on, so 44 could also refer to something new, unconventional, crazy, etcetera, in those areas.

Simply irresistable !!!

 

[meng]

The ruler issues commands to the four winds. This indicates clearly who needs to be calling the shots. But I think it's pretty doubtful heaven would subject her to all the stone throwing she gets down here.

 

[martin]

Simply irresistable !!!

Yesss! Very 44!

 

[charly]

Yes it is a shame that human beings are so needy but ... that person or element may not wholly satisfy your desires and needs forever ...

Of course, nobody can do it. But H.44 promise us that when the opportunity arrives the heaven will send us a signal, we can profit it or not, we are free:

From 43.5:

含han2 : to keep / to contain / to hide
章zhang1: chapter / seal / signal

有you3 : to have
隕yun3 : to fall (like a meteor) / meteorite /
自zi4 : from / self / oneself / since /
天tian1 : day / sky / heaven /
​

a HIDDEN SIGNAL
HAS TO FALL FROM the SKY
​

In many cultures a falling star give us the opportunity of making a desire true.

But to fullfill a desire is not the same that to get desires and needs forever satisfied.

Sometimes fillfilled desires turns in bad results, «answered prayers» (2) become worse than the ones that were not heard, sometimes, not always.

The promise of 44.5: pay attention, sometimes a signal will get to you, read it, say your desire in time (3), it will be fullfilled.

Needy guys used to want only one thing all the time, but this is another story.

Yours,

Charly

______________________
(1) 含han2 character has two components, the upper a mouth speaking from above, maybe issuing orders, or mandate from the high, the lower another standard mouth. The whole means to keep, to contain, to guard.
It looks like that the upper mouth is facing down and touching the lower mouth with his tongue, maybe a lover's kiss?

(2) Truman Capote wrote about that.

(3) = fullfill the attached duties.

 

[maremaria]

But the commands we're told to issue (as far as I understand it) come from the ruler, not from the maiden.

Meng, do you mean that the maiden here is just a “messenger ” . Wind’s power is that it can reach anywhere. Does the ruler use this power to make known his will ?

 

[martin]

Would 'Muse' be a good name for hexagram 44? Covers many meanings ..

"In Greek mythology, the Muses (Ancient Greek αἱ μοῦσαι, hai moũsai [1]: perhaps from the Proto-Indo-European root *men- "think"[2]) are a sisterhood of goddesses or spirits, their number set at nine by Classical times, who embody the arts and inspire the creation process with their graces .. " (Wikipedia)

 

[maremaria]

Would 'Muse' be a good name for hexagram 44? Covers many meanings ..

"In Greek mythology, the Muses (Ancient Greek αἱ μοῦσαι, hai moũsai [1]: perhaps from the Proto-Indo-European root *men- "think"[2]) are a sisterhood of goddesses or spirits, their number set at nine by Classical times, who embody the arts and inspire the creation process with their graces .. " (Wikipedia)

You won't believe what I was doing now !!! Yes... google Muse !!!!

WORD HISTORY The Muse has inspired English poetry since Chaucer invoked her in 1374. Muse comes from Latin Mūsa, from Greek Mousa. There are Greek dialect forms mōsa and moisa, and all three come from an original *montya. As to the further origins of this form, a clue is provided by the name of Mnemosyne, the goddess of memory and mother of the Muses. Her name is the Greek noun mnēmosunē “memory,” which comes from *mnā–, an extended form of the Greek and Indo-European root *men–, “to think.” This is the root from which we derive amnesia (from Greek), mental (from Latin), and mind (from Germanic). The reconstructed form *montya that is the ancestor of Greek Mousa could then mean something like “having mental power.”

from here

 

[charly]

Hi Charly,

There's another zhi-zhu, pronounced the same, but with a slightly different first character here... which means "walk to and fro; loiter around", written 踯躅

The lines of 44.1 substitute 蹢, or "hoof" in place of 踯, or "waver; hesitate" getting a meaning for 蹢躅 along the lines of "scampering around"... a phrase used more frequently in English in the context of small animals and children, which seems appropriate for the skinny pig on the hoof in 44.1

Thanks, Getojack:

Another reading based on Rutt and Shaughnessy (1):

The SCRAWNY PIG is CAUGHT HELTER-SKELTER.
Maybe the scrawny pig is caught in a hurry. (2)
The Pig is not always tall, strong and decided.

Another possibility is to read ZHI-ZHU as an onomatopoeia:

The SCRAWNY PIG CATCHES the ZHI-ZHU.
Maybe ZHI-ZHOU is a thing or may be is a way as in «to take the middle path», the pig takes the ZHI-ZOU WAY.

Yours,

Charly

__________________
(1) Scrawny (Rutt), helter-skelter (Shaughnessy)
(2) Here I read fu as a verb «to capture» but in a wide sense, plainly «to catch».

 

[martin]

You won't believe what I was doing now !!! Yes... google Muse !!!!

!

Well, perhaps some would prefer the name 'Siren' because that emphasizes how dangerous 44 can be.

"In Greek mythology, the Sirens (Greek singular: Σειρήν Seirḗn; Greek plural: Σειρῆνες Seirênes) were three dangerous bird-women, portrayed as seductresses, who lived on an island called Sirenum scopuli. In some later, rationalized traditions the literal geography of the "flowery" island of Anthemoessa, or Anthemusa,[1] is fixed: sometimes on Cape Pelorum and at others in the Sirenusian islands near Paestum, or in Capreae.[2] All locations were surrounded by cliffs and rocks. Seamen who sailed near were decoyed by the Sirens' enchanting music and voices to shipwreck on the rocky coast." (Wikipedia)

 

[charly]

Meng, do you mean that the maiden here is just a “messenger ” . Wind’s power is that it can reach anywhere. Does the ruler use this power to make known his will ?

María:

Women are angels and «angel» means messenger. Some times is the messenger of God as in Heaven and Wind, father and daughter, but here I believe that is a messenger of the GODDESS, the Ancestral Lady.

The girl is powerful not because of his father but because of his grandmother, the power flows from woman to woman, matrilinear.

Yours,

Charly

 

[martin]

There is a Siren (sort of) in German folklore, called Lorelei. She is associated with a rock on the bank of the river Rhine that has the same name.
Wikipedia again: "The name comes from the old German words "lureln" (Rhine dialect for "murmuring") and "ley" (rock). The translation of the name would therefore be: "murmur rock" or "murmuring rock". The heavy currents, and a small waterfall in the area (still visible in the early 19th century) created a murmuring sound, and this combined with the special echo the rock produces which acted as a sort of amplifier, then gave name to the rock itself.[1] The murmuring is hard to hear today due to the urbanization of the area."

As the legend goes, this murmuring lured navigators of the river to their dooms.

 

[Trojina]

María:

Women are angels and «angel» means messenger. Some times is the messenger of God as in Heaven and Wind, father and daughter, but here I believe that is a messenger of the GODDESS, the Ancestral Lady.

The girl is powerful not because of his father but because of his grandmother, the power flows from woman to woman, matrilinear.

Yours,

Charly

Where do you get the idea angels are women/women are angels ? Archangel Michael is male so is Angel Gabriel and numerous others. Well at least they are thought of as male though how gender works in angels i don't know but it certainly isn't the case women are angels ?? If you are talking in terms of popular terminology, ie 'be an angel' etc then how can that modern phraseology relate to what is in ancient Chinese ?

 

[em ching]

María:

The girl is powerful not because of his father but because of his grandmother, the power flows from woman to woman, matrilinear.

Yes maybe that's me a bit - it's funny I've also just been reading about the Mitochondrial Eve - "Recent genetic studies indicate that the ancestry of all currently living human beings can be traced back to a single woman, dubbed Mitochondrial Eve (who) suposedly lived in Africa 200,000 years ago..." (Yasminboland.com)

I do have a habit sometimes of taking the lead with too much with guys/ people - perhaps I get it from my grandmother who is strong (which is good) but perhaps a little 'pushy' - I also have a Aries moon and ascendant which I think my Libra Sun has a hard time balancing so I'm either very impulsive or I deliberate to stagantion!

Anyway, I did contact someone recently, and it was interesting to share things - people learn from each other and can inspire each other to creating things - sometimes you should make contact if you feel it!
But perhaps 44 has also been saying to me recently to temper myself and allow the other to come forwards too - for an equal interaction rather than pushing ahead blindly and forcing contact or expecting more from something, to satisfy your own needs... also perhaps that the person in question needs more from that person, than they do from you, hence the approaching line, making the relationship unequal..

I liked the message of 44.1 too - don't be silly basically be strong and mindful of your defects! Don't allow your needs to cloud the development of your Self and thus marr your potential, perhaps by hiding behind or succumbing to insecurities...

 

[maremaria]

!

Well, perhaps some would prefer the name 'Siren' because that emphasizes how dangerous 44 can be.

Martin, I have posted this link to the other 44 thread about sirens or mermaids. Don sure if every informationis correct but it looks like an interesting article.

María:

Women are angels ......
Charly

I know Charly !! I'm a woman. I know that !!!
And we keep telling you that but you guys don't believe that ...



Seriously, from the article ( see link above) here is something like what you said about :

charly :but here I believe that is a messenger of the GODDESS, the Ancestral Lady

Scarlett deMason notes that the mermaid's "abundant, flowing hair, symbolizing an abundant love potential, was also an attribute of Venus in her role as fertility goddess. Her comb . . . carried sexual connotations for the Greeks, as their words for comb, kteis and pecten, also signified the female vulva. Thus the mermaid is the surviving aspect of the old goddesses . . . ." Regardless of where we begin our interpretation of the mermaid, or which analytic path we take, we are brought back, again and again, to the ancient Great Goddess, the archetype behind the figure of Mary, who in Christian culture is usually split into the virginal Madonna and the holy prostitute. The mermaid ultimately signifies the fundamental mystery of female sexuality, particularly for men who, because they cannot comprehend it, are simultaneously drawn to it and terrified by it. That is why the mermaid becomes so easily conflated with the siren and her irresistible call that leads men to their doom.

 

[charly]

... If you are talking in terms of popular terminology, ie 'be an angel' etc then how can that modern phraseology relate to what is in ancient Chinese ?

Trojan:

If we understand «angel» as a totally good person, somebody exempt of evil, of course, neither women nor men are angels.

If we understand «angel» as messengers of divinity, folk wisdom says that women are so. This is for here and now and for China and then, 2000 years BC or more.

Once more, see the Great Image [Da Xiang] in W/B version:

The image of COMING TO MEET.
Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands
And proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven.

First, trust me, W/B says «prince» but the word «hou» means PRINCESS, and the tilte «Gou» emphatized the genre. W/B translates «Gou», only one word, as «coming to meet»

coming to meet → the job of a messenger

• 
  «Gou» → The Sender

thus does the prince → comes to meet

• from where? who sends him?
• We know that «Hou» is a Princess, «Gou» is sending her.

... disseminating his commands → reporting orders

• If he/she is a ruler, why to disseminate his own orders in person?
• The commands are issued by «Gou», «Hou» is only reporting it.

... proclaming them ... → the task of a messenger indeed.

• Rulers don't use to proclamate their own commands.

... to the four quarters → in the four directions, covering all the country

• W/B adds «of heaven» that there is not in the chinese text.
• She is not proclaming commands in the heavens, but here, to us, in the earth.
• Like all messengers do, included angels, they speak to us, people.

Why do we say that «Gou» is a Goddess and not a mistress?

The firts words that the Great Image says are:

天tian1: heaven / sky
下xia4: below
有you3: there is
風feng1: wind...

HEAVEN BELOW THERE IS WIND.

Whay did it not say BELOW HEAVEN IS WIND or WIND IS BELOW HEAVEN?
Because 天下 tiān xià means «land under heaven / the whole world / the whole of China», say, all the things that exists.

ALL WHAT EXIST IS WIND: GOU

Yours,

Charly

 

[martin]

Martin, I have posted this link to the other 44 thread about sirens or mermaids.

Ah, thank you. It's interesting and funny too.

 

[Trojina]

Trojan:

If we understand «angel» as a totally good person, somebody exempt of evil, of course, neither women nor men are angels.

If we understand «angel» as messengers of divinity, folk wisdom says that women are so. This is for here and now and for China and then, 2000 years BC or more.




Charly

Well I'm pretty off topic arguing the point i guess but how can you say 'folk wisdom' says ? Whose folk wisdom ? Every Angel i can think of is male ie Michael, Uriel, Raphael, Gabriel, Raziel.. is that enough evidence that angels aren't always thought of as female ? Not sure what point you're making but if its based on the notion that angels as messengers of God are always female then I think you're on flimsy ground.

Hmm actually anyway an angel is not a 'totally good person' or indeed a 'person' at all ...totally good yes, a person as in a human no... though perhaps we should not get too hung up on the gender of angels in relation to 44 seeing as i don't think, and you can correct me if I'm wrong, that the word for 'angel' exists anywhere in the original Chinese text for 44.

 

[charly]

... I know Charly !! I'm a woman. I know that !!! And we keep telling you that but you guys don't believe that ...

Hi, María:

I know. And I know that you know it!

Scarlett deMason notes that the mermaid's "abundant, flowing hair, symbolizing an abundant love potential, was also an attribute of Venus in her role as fertility goddess. Her comb . . . carried sexual connotations for the Greeks, as their words for comb, kteis and pecten, also signified the female vulva ... [/I].

I believe that the comparition between greek and chinese peoples must be fructiferous, homeric poems, like the Yi, speak of bronze age people, maybe without a great cultural gap in between. Both closer than us from old matrilinear customs, old agrarian rites, and old healthy taste in matter of female beauty.

Turning to H.44:

All the hexagram has plenty of sexual connotations, both from plants (the willow tree, the gourd) and from animals (the scrawny pig, wrapped fish). It has in itself a whole repertory of poetic sexual anatomy paired with omens and allusions to ancient sacre rites.

First of all the gourd or the womb:

瓜 gua1, the old character depicts a sprout with a berry hanging from it, held by a woden tutor (the willow or the poplar tutor), it have many meanings, one of them (gourd) could bear female and male connotations:

• melon → breasts
• pumpkin / calabash → womb / head (1)
• cucumber → phallus

杞 qi3 willow / poplar related to

• the spirit of the dead people, the eternal,
• also the rebirding.

→ Symbolize mainly the phallus but also has female senses. But qi3 not used only for willows and poplars.

枸杞 gǒuqǐ is the Wolfberry (3), both character Dog and Willow could mean phallus, the first is similar to bao(womb), the second is applied not only to willows and poplars but a wide range of berries, an open Wolfberry means vagina.

Gouqui designates:

• Wolfberry (like a little tomatoe) → vagina
• Some sorts of Orange / Citron → lemmons → breasts

包 bao1, mainly bag or purse, also to cover / to wrap / to hold / to include / to take charge of / package / wrapper / container / bag / to hold or embrace / bundle / packet → pregnancy → womb

魚 yu2, fish → fertility

取 qu3, mainly take by force, like a booty, also to take / to get / to fetch / to marry !!! → related to the bride kidnapping (real or ritual)

As a curiosity:

含 han2, composed by two components, the upper a mouth issuing orders from above, the second another mouth (standard version) meaning to keep / to contain and maybe to hide (4) → Oral interchange.

Too much for now.

Yours,

Charly

___________________
(1) the HEAD is a sexual organ, of course:
«a los álamos verdes los mueve el viento / y a los enamorados el pensamiento» (Leda & María) → Green poplars are moved by the wind and lovers by the mind. Do you remember the willow / poplar ?
In my country (ask Luis) a sort of pumpkin with a klong neck used to sip «mate» infussion is called «porongo» (male) it coul mean «Great Chief» and «poronga» (female, very rude, don't use it!) mean «Phallus». This calabash is obtained by the procedure described by Rutt, tutoring the bery with a wooden stalk.

(2)... and the uneven mariages: willow issuing a sprout = elder husband with young woman, willow issuing flower = elder woman with young man. The stem is male, the foliage female. Something close to chinese bedchamber arts.

(3) from the greek Lycos, Fructus Licii , looks like a little tomatoe, in chinese is not the Wolf but the Dog berry. Gou sounds like the name of H.44, here has the tree compenent and the dog component (the same dog as the Mawangdui name of H.44). Dog means phallus while berry means vagina.

(4) the standard character looks like a mouth facing down and touching with its tongue another mouth → lovers' kiss? ritual 69 sex, like among the hindus? If the upper mouth is commanding, why not ear above? You know what the ear means.

 

[meng]

Beautiful article on the mermaid. I missed it the first time.

 

[charly]

... Hmm actually anyway an angel is not a 'totally good person' or indeed a 'person' at all ...totally good yes, a person as in a human no... though perhaps we should not get too hung up on the gender of angels in relation to 44

Topal, please,

... read the remarks about the Great Image, there are the reason for wich I believe that the HOU / PRINCESS is the MESSENGER / ANGEL of the GOU / GODDESS, thus, if acting in name of the GODDESS must be a FEMALE ANGEL (MESSENGER).

I'm speaking of this sort of angels, the messengers, not of angels enfeofed by the secular power of the church that borders polyteism.

Also in the sense when the lover says «you're an angel». You promise me the paradise!

Don't you believe?

Yours,

Charly

 

[Sparhawk]

I've read somewhere that angels are asexual... I'll see if I can find it.

 

[martin]

Catholic angels are nearly always male, as far as I know, but Charly was apparently not talking about those angels.
He did confuse Trojan with Topal though, so I wouldn't trust him too much when it's about gender.