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45 unchanging

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Hi everyone. I was reading another post on here that asked "How does he perceive me?" and I thought it was a well worded and interesting question that I also personally desired the answer to.

I asked How does X perceive me? and got 45 unchanging.

I am actually not too sure how to interprete 45 in this situation and would love some advice.

I used vitual yarrow from http://http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/index.html to acheive my answer as well as read the commentary/transation from that page. (I like to sometimes choose and refine my source of translation before asking the question. This allows the symbols USUALLY to speak to me with a bit more confidence). This time not too much. I chose Lise's and have not looked at any other translations. I will take insight from other translations but it was my intention to just use her's.

I always like Lise's descriptions of each hexagram. I am just this time finding it too easy to read this the wrong way. I keep thinking the I Ching is describing how I percieve him. I am having a hard time flipping it and applying 45 to a perception from someone else.

Please help. Thanks :hug:
 
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nebu

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Hello answeredquestions

I don't think the 'how does so-and-so perceive me?' is where the emphasis needs to lie and if it was I wouldn't have responded in the other thread, and in that thread you're referring to if you look at the history of that question from the author's previous threads you'll see that the intention was to ask 'how am I coming across?', which has - or at least can have - a very different emphasis to 'let me get behind this other person's eyes'.

IMO the emphasis needs to be on self-awareness, about how you're contributing to the interaction, what you're bringing to it that you might not currently be aware of, that you might have a blind spot about but which the Yi can cast light on and help you integrate, thus growing as a person.

If the intention is to ask 'how is this person seeing me?' it's an attempt to mind read and bypass the normal human level of talking together, which understandably doesn't sit well with a lot of people, but if you ask about aspects of you which you're putting out there but you don't realise you're putting out there but which the other person is fully aware of and thus responding to, then you stand a chance of building awareness of yourself where there currently might be diminished oversight.

There's a subtle but very important difference in the locus of 'how am I being perceived?' (attempting to mind-read) compared to 'how am I coming across here, in this situation?' so that you can make your self-perception fuller and more accurate, taking in aspects that are normally beyond your vision, rather than trying to see through another person's eyes.

Regards

Nebu
 

ace

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"I keep thinking the I Ching is describing how I percieve him."

Is it possible that he perceives you in the same manner?

45 for me has been a quite a social hexagram, with collectedness, gathering amongst people. Or, I become connected to the larger social body. Like rain drops that find unity by falling into a lake. Perhaps, he sees you as someone he can gather with, someone he can find unity with.
 

patro

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i think like Ace about 45.
the only difference is that the he see you as the ruler.
the ruler to join and to follow so to can reach the target.
so if you want to see some progress you need to be resolute and clear in your acting.

one of the possible advices of this hexagram is to marry! but it's a border-line advice, all is depending from your interest about him ;)
 
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one of the possible advices of this hexagram is to marry! but it's a border-line advice, all is depending from your interest about him ;)


....Ohh.. I'm interested! But I am not into traditional marriage. Despite that, I would like to build something with this man. I think we have something different and special. We have this common ground that we are on, that is based in finding truths and progressing from them. Yet also we are completely different. I'm a Cancer, he's an Aquarius. He was the sports star, I was the Art student. (Lot's more) I think it makes it an interesting combo and it also makes me think our souls have done this before.

Well, thanks for everyone that has chimed in.

nebu - I see what you are saying, in that you are not actually anaylizing hexagram 45 and giving me advice, instead you are analyzing my approach at divination. It always helps to get advice in that realm. There is something I picked up somewhere in my journey of reading. It might have been from a couple different sources. The concept is called "The Witness". Without getting too detailed, it is about observing yourself from outside of yourself. It can be calming and also very enlightening. I usually say to myself, WHAT am I doing?! and I try to reach some self betterment thru the process.

I suppose no one can ever really know how another person is perceiving them or maybe it does not matter in the end anyway. I do feel this extreme connection with Him and I cannot help but have a desire to know his perception of me.

nebu - "the intention was to ask 'how am I coming across?" ... nebu, I would say that is sort of my intention, but I also wanted, in the back of my mind, to get an archetypical view of how I am coming across to him. (Am I a mothering figure, am I a fun factor, am I a sex goddess to him) Do you see what I mean? Is this the wrong approach?

ace - "45 for me has been a quite a social hexagram"
I can see this being of importance. I am a very social person. I like to go out, mingle with friends (and new faces). I also do not mind controlling the conversation or at least having a large part in keeping it going. I have a lot of friends from all around, although I don't see a lot of them enough. Maybe he see's me as a social outlet. But like you said, maybe he sees me as someone to unite with. I do LIKE that thought! :rolleyes:

When I think about him and I "Uniting" it seems like a super human god-like thing to me. I am not trying to be arrogant. I feel like right where I am lacking (and working on bettering myself), he is already accomplished or is naturally sound. And vice versa. Like two pieces of a puzzle that could never be that strong unless together.

patro - You bring up something very interesting. Who is the ruler? He likes to follow. He likes to be submissive. He likes for me to take charge. We have talked about this. So, you are saying, to progress I need to be clear about who rules. He has complimented me on my ability to have a good time/socialize and interact. I think he likes to be around such a person. It seems to bring that out in him aswell.

-------------
I actually feel like I am getting somewhere with understanding the answer. 45 is complex (Aren't they all?). I was studying the Wilhelm translation to branch off. I need to get thorough with this so I changed my mind about just using Lise's translation...

I would say, also, there are some family dynamics at work. I hang out with his family whom is really close. I also hang out with his children (2 girls). I truely enjoy these interactions. Maybe there is something to that aswell because there is definitely some talk about family aspects in Wilhelm.

I'd like to understand the symbols presented in the Lake over the Earth.
(hopefully I can type some more later)

..thanks everyone.
 

patro

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patro - You bring up something very interesting. Who is the ruler? He likes to follow. He likes to be submissive. He likes for me to take charge.
this answer the questions. you are the ruler... to who one looks and join to progress in the same direction with the same ideas.

read all possible boocks about 45... there is an advice contained in it, an advice to take care about.
if you do want not marry in a traditional way it's ok... but at last you'll need something similar... because some one can robber him.
 
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Thanks patro. I did read that about robbing as well. I was thinking from the original question about how he perceives me... and it would seem he might be concerned I would be robbed. Not sure tho.
 

patro

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Thanks patro. I did read that about robbing as well. I was thinking from the original question about how he perceives me... and it would seem he might be concerned I would be robbed. Not sure tho.
nope ;)
he percive you as the ruler. the one to follow...
the robber thing is an advice... to mantain the status.
 

patro

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How would you take robber? As someone else snatching him up?
yes
"snatching him up" i learned something new about the way to express in English ;)

"snatching him up" is an and only an advice
the advice is to take care when you have a lot of goods... some one want this goods and robber them.
or where a lot of people come together can rise to disputes.
in your case it's more a "snatching him up"
 
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Shoot. I am not clear on this.

Do you mean I need to guard against someone taking something physically from him that he owns?
or
Do you think that I need to guard against another girl taking him from me?

Sorry. THANK YOU FOR ALL OF THIS! :)
 

patro

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or
Do you think that I need to guard against another girl taking him from me?

Sorry. THANK YOU FOR ALL OF THIS! :)
it's this one.
but it's an advice... you need to understand this.
it's not what will happen.... it's something that can be happen if you don't care to much about.
 
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Ok, thanks... and I care and am taking care. So I am thinking this will not happen.
thanks petro
 
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nebu - On a side note and I am not even sure if this ever did fit with the topic. It just keeps coming to my mind.. I wanted to share a music video that goes with the idea of The Witness.

I am at work and cannot view video. So I cannot get you the direct link.
But if you Youtube - "Queen Bee by Puscifer" it will be right there.

(Also, Momma Sed by Puscifer - the song and video are based around the I Ching)
 

ace

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Thanks for your response to my posting. Glad that you could identify with parts of it. Only one little addition as I would not want to mislead ... I discussed unity, not necessarily uniting. I intuit these as quite different. You might be perceived, because of your well developed social skills and connections, as someone to gather with, to collect with. To me, 45 has not spoken to a social exclusivity, but more inclusivity. This is not to say down the road that the perception couldn't become more couple-like, but at this point of the evolution in this context his perception might be more socially-based or group-like. Not sure ...
 
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Thanks ace. Unity and uniting are surely different.

Thoughts about exclusivity - I think he might see me as not exclusively whom he wants to be with yet. But we are together and have been for a little under a year. He gets protective of me etc. But I believe he is not SET that I am the one because he believes that there can be no ONE.

Thoughts on inclusivity - We connect on ways that often times make it seem as though people are rejecting us or classifying us as seperate. We talk about how people in general do not care for abnormal or creative individualist people. (Like at the grocery store, people seem to run away rather than welcome differences).
 
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ace

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ahh ... he sees you as **his people**. 45, I think, could point to this perception ...
 

Trojina

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Geez I think you could definately over think this.

45 unchanging doesn't tell you a heck of alot IMO whilst simultaneously you could also take it anywhere you want

the most obvious meaning to me if I take the answer as actually answering the question put, and theres no way of knowing if it does, is well if 45 is gathering together weapons or resources to make ready for the unforseen he may see you as part of his social 'crew' or team. Sometimes we might say we have a bank of friends or associates we can call on, our group. It doesn't say whether he sees you as an intimate or special part of that or not. Since its 45 unchanging it could just be showing you 'how it is' he is a part of your group, he sees you as that ....so.....?


Apart from that it isn't particulary telling you much more that you could glean from plain speculation about how he might see you.

In your shoes I think I'd ask another question about where its headed or something since I don't see the answer as really giving anything specific. To figure his perceptions you have to filter them through your own perceptions like you say earlier 'does he see me a sexy, or just a friend' etc etc but maybe his way of perceiving is so different to yours you can't imagine how it would be to be him perceiving you because he may perceive you outside the bounds of your perceptions of how you might appear. Its quite a complex request 'i want to see me like he sees me' but as you aren't him you can only see as you with what you imagine about you to put in his mind via the answer.


Anyway regardless of all that I think this is almost a 'blank' answer where you fill in the details because they aren't there...but then if you fill them in you are just getting your own possible self perceptions back at you


I'm glad you think its a clear straight forward question lol
 
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pocossin

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I asked How does X perceive me? and got 45 unchanging.

The Yi is flattering you. Hexagram 45 is the picture of a temple gate, like a torii. A temple gate gives access to the spiritual, so X perceives you as a spiritual person. Does X know about your Yi Jing interest?
 

Trojina

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....


I suppose no one can ever really know how another person is perceiving them
or maybe it does not matter in the end anyway. I do feel this extreme connection with Him and I cannot help but have a desire to know his perception of me.

nebu - "the intention was to ask 'how am I coming across?" ... nebu, I would say that is sort of my intention, but I also wanted, in the back of my mind, to get an archetypical view of how I am coming across to him. (Am I a mothering figure, am I a fun factor, am I a sex goddess to him) Do you see what I mean? Is this the wrong approach?

ace - "45 for me has been a quite a social hexagram"
I can see this being of importance. I am a very social person. I like to go out, mingle with friends (and new faces). I also do not mind controlling the conversation or at least having a large part in keeping it going. I have a lot of friends from all around, although I don't see a lot of them enough. Maybe he see's me as a social outlet. But like you said, maybe he sees me as someone to unite with. I do LIKE that thought! :rolleyes:

When I think about him and I "Uniting" it seems like a super human god-like thing to me. I am not trying to be arrogant. I feel like right where I am lacking (and working on bettering myself), he is already accomplished or is naturally sound. And vice versa. Like two pieces of a puzzle that could never be that strong unless together.



..thanks everyone.

re first underline I see you say more or less the same thing as i did yourself


re second underline.......red alert. If you see him and you getting together as a god like thing with him so far above you you have of course projected your idealised inner parental figure on him, its probably not quite real. Fortunately the cure is simple. You just need to get to know him much better then he'll appear less god like plus you will probably know whats hes thinking and how he perceives you with no trouble


Seems really like what you are saying is you aren't clear about the status of the relationship ? hes made no moves to you as a potential lover and you wonder if he might ? Hence thats why you want to know how he perceives you.
 
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nebu

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Hello Answeredquestions

Sorry I haven't been able to get back to this thread until now.

I think there are two separate things here. One is building self-awareness, another is knowing where you stand with another person.

When you say this part "Am I a mothering figure, am I a fun factor, am I a sex goddess to him) Do you see what I mean? Is this the wrong approach?" then I agree with Trojan and others that the only way to know is to talk to him about it and see what response you get and go from there. It's definitely not the approach I was describing, because your intent isn't to increase your self-awareness or improve the accuracy of your self-perception, or strengthen your own growth process.

In a relationship of any type - work, friendship, family, romance - it's natural to think about how the other person is viewing things, because how they view things is relevant to their behaviour. But the closer we get to someone, the more we need to retain ourselves, not lose ourselves in them, and not lose ourselves in our own thoughts and mental processes. It's very difficult to do, and takes eternal vigilance. But if we want to have a relationship then we need to have that relationship with the other flesh-and-blood person, not with our ideas about the other person (the latter would keep us trapped inside our own heads, going round in circles).

I agree 100% with Trojan's latest comments about the red alert. Whilst it can be a simple fact that two people complement each other's weak areas with their own strong areas, the 'superhuman godlike' description suggests that something is overgrown and needs to be reduced back to ordinary size. As Trojan recommends, reality is the cure, and in life it's useful to become good at bursting one's own bubbles.

You're not two halves making a whole. You're two separate wholes, who will choose to be together with each other, or not.

Hexagram 45 unchanging asks you to consider what you're investing your energy in, where you're placing the focus of your energy. It's about gathering various elements into an organised whole. My take on this is that that whole is you, and it's talking about you uniting with yourself, i.e. building yourself into a unity, a whole unit.

Regards

Nebu
 
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Thanks trojan for your help. 45 unchanging to me said VERY little at first. That was why I decided to post this one. As people have been giving me ideas, I am not sure that they are truely adhering to hexagram 45 or not, but they do seem to be shedding some sort of light in my brain. I might be over validating things to fit. Not sure.

trojan quote - "45 is gathering together weapons or resources to make ready for the unforseen he may see you as part of his social 'crew' or team."

This right here makes SO much sense it gives me chills. A little over a month ago, I said something to X about how times on this earth are changing. Things are going to have to get bad and we are going to have to rely much more on our survival skills. We talked about financial crisis etc. and we were really resonating about what we believed. After that we started purchasing survival books online. How to prepare for different things. How to make water drinkable, identify plants etc. His family is in on this idea as well (Dad, 2 brothers and 1 sister). Together we are devising a plan for if something were to happen. We are creating a meeting point as well as honing in on different skills. His dad is excellent at directions, so he is the map man/directional guide. I am the weapon maker. I am really good with working with my hands and crafting things. Plus I work with wood. I have just started to look into weapon making (bow and arrow, nets, spears). X is going to use them and I am going to make them. We are going to go camping and put them to the test. We talk about this almost everyday. It seems to get us going. We figured that even if the world doesn't get to this point, survival knowledge of this kind only makes us more secure and understand the way things work. I wouldn't even mind living off of the land regardless of the surrounding world's status.

He does see me as a lover. We are together. He asked me to be his girlfriend sometime in the middle of winter and we had been seeing each other since last summer sometime but not as seriously. I talk with him everyday and I know his intentions as far as if he wants to be friends or more than friends. I was just wanting to see if the I Ching would send me a sign about what TYPE of person he perceives me as. (Archetype)

I need to make my questions clearer!! :duh:(you are right - why did I say it was a straighforward question?! :footinmouth:)

I could only understand how he sees me thru the limitations of my own perception.
We have extremely different ways of getting at the same conclusion. I work mainly emotionally to arrive at the same conclusion he has logically. His way of seeing things is, and always will be, coming from the opposite side of the spectrum. What is cool is we seem to be looking/interested in the same point.

It's just like if 2 artists are drawing the same object. They come out differently. I want to see his drawing of me. I am being overly curious and selfish.

Thanks trojan.
 
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The Yi is flattering you. Hexagram 45 is the picture of a temple gate, like a torii. A temple gate gives access to the spiritual, so X perceives you as a spiritual person. Does X know about your Yi Jing interest?

hi pocossin. thanks for the response.

He does know my interest in the Yi. I have other spiritual interests as well that he is aware of. He is on the same path yet he says the Yi is too complex for him at the moment. :)
 

patro

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about the discussion here and there "how XXX percive me?" and other questions like these and the opinion that the yi isn't able to answer to such a question..... these are pure speculations IMO.

the yi can answer to any questions and it also do.... we are the problem. we are the one that need to understand how and to which the answer is referring.
i read the post from Hillary but to me there are some things that have not much sense... like questioning with if.... there are more simple and efficent ways to ask the yi. i'm sure Hillary is able to ask using "if" and to get the context of the answer... but most of us isn't able. personally i never use "if", because i read at the beginning the book from R.L.Wing.
again "how XXX percive me?" the questions isn't incorrect... there are more than a type of person:

one categories represented by the decided, certain and safe... it seams that Mr.X here is one of them.

one categories represented by the undecided, handsome, voluble etc. and the yi has many ways to refer to such persons... like line 3 of hex 24.

one categories represented by the one that are still and almost on a inner evolutions path.

imo the yi is always be able to answer to any questions.... we need to learn and to understand more deeply how the yi interact with us. the yi interact in a special way with each one of us.
:bows:
 
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I think there are two separate things here. One is building self-awareness, another is knowing where you stand with another person.


..Right. And the question I presented to the Yi, it's nature is closer to the latter. I do however work on self-awareness and progression. I have been doing readings based on the self for a good chunk of time, and most of the time I do not post them on here. They speak to me well enough. I also have many other various ways of progressing. It is a constant and endless journey. ;) This question was suppose to be a glimmer or a sign about how X views me not how I perceive myself. I saw it as a question where the Yi would give me a sign about his archetypical view of me. And actually, from the other member's post's, I am seeing what the Yi ment.

When you say this part "Am I a mothering figure, am I a fun factor, am I a sex goddess to him) Do you see what I mean? Is this the wrong approach?" then I agree with Trojan and others that the only way to know is to talk to him about it and see what response you get and go from there. It's definitely not the approach I was describing, because your intent isn't to increase your self-awareness or improve the accuracy of your self-perception, or strengthen your own growth process.


per underline - Not in this question. No. But it is a consistant goal of mine.

In a relationship of any type - work, friendship, family, romance - it's natural to think about how the other person is viewing things, because how they view things is relevant to their behaviour.


Yes. It is something everyone thinks of, and I went ahead and asked the question. To me, it seems you are assuming something untrue about my personality based on 1 question. I could be wrong. Either way, I understand your advice and thank you.


You're not two halves making a whole. You're two separate wholes, who will choose to be together with each other, or not.

Agreed. I am well aware of this. My view on this is VERY complex and I feel I need to explain it a little better. The relationship of 2 things is very complex which makes my view proportionate to the matter. I believe that you must always work on yourself first and formost. There, to me, is a small speck of light that is within. No one else shares this small speck (This viewpoint). It is something I think that needs cultivated and expressed. It could be the very reason for life, to cultivate this speck.

BUT we are not alone. We come from the same source. We are connected. When you join hands with someone, there is a power that can only exist from that joining. There are things that cannot be done without coming together. Heavy things cannot be lifted. This can also be a metaphor. In this action of coming together, you create a larger whole.

The super human god thing - That was coming from a funny part of my personality yet I did not express that I was being jokie. I forget sometimes that thru text, the tone of things can be completely lost. I do however think that we, X and I, have something important. As if we were supposed to meet to teach and learn from each other.

Hexagram 45 unchanging asks you to consider what you're investing your energy in, where you're placing the focus of your energy. It's about gathering various elements into an organised whole. My take on this is that that whole is you, and it's talking about you uniting with yourself, i.e. building yourself into a unity, a whole unit.

I would have to disagree. I am going with my gut here. I don't think it is saying that the "whole" is me. I don't think that Q: How X perceives me - is - A: him seeing me uniting/working on myself. I think that is a little off, but an interesting view. Thanks nebu.

BTW - I like saying "nebu". It has a fun ring to it. Thanks for everything.
 
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imo the yi is always be able to answer to any questions.... we need to learn and to understand more deeply how the yi interact with us. the yi interact in a special way with each one of us.
:bows:

YES!!!!

It is the way that we look at the answer that could prohibit us from seeing what it is trying to say. I believe the Yi knows who is looking, how they are looking at it, when they are looking at it, and it gives you a devine answer based on that.

I see what the Yi is saying now for my Question thru 45 unchanging.
 
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How does X perceive me? Hexagram 45 unchanging.

The Yi is saying something in a very bold way to me. I usually get a changing line here or there. This seems to be straight to the point that I now understand thanks to everyone's help.

The Yi is telling me that X perceives me as a counterpart. Someone to come together with and become stronger. I believe this to be based around three things. One is with the survival studies we are going through, and another is of a spiritual nature, and last is of a social nature.

On the survival side, he sees me as someone to collaberate with. He once said he thinks we are on the same page about this, and that he "feels like we can do it together". Maybe he, like me, is thinking a lot about this and his perception of me is based around these survival ideas. He sees me in the forest with him.

On the spiritual side, I think we are learning from each other. His perception is that I am someone who he can grow with spiritually together. He is open to the light and we both can shine it on one another. I know he likes that I am thoughtful about things of this nature. I see this as a big part of his perception of me. Someone to collaberate with spiritually. He sees me in the light with him. Searching for the Truth.

On the social side, we are both learning from eachother just like the other two 'S''s. :rolleyes: But for this question and his perception, I think this pertains to an example I am going to throw out: That he wants to make a t-shirt that says "I don't get out much". He wants to make this because he believes it will help the people around understand his awkwardness (While being funny. He's really funny.. and awkward but I think it is cute and I will help him to not be). We went to a friend of the families to have a wine tasting and it was him and I, his Dad and girlfriend, and the couple who's house it was. It was a blast and everyone was chiming in and playing good ping pong (my way of saying volleying with words). He complimented me after we left saying that he likes how I interact with people in a social setting even if I did not previously know them. He sees me in the sound vibrations with him and it helps him to interact better himself.

So, all of these things have a theme. An interaction with me being a helping force.
Counterpart.
Collaborator.
Helper.
Leader.

Just throwing some ideas out there...
 

nebu

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I would have to disagree. I am going with my gut here. I don't think it is saying that the "whole" is me. I don't think that Q: How X perceives me - is - A: him seeing me uniting/working on myself. I think that is a little off, but an interesting view. Thanks nebu.

Hello Answeredquestions

I agree that it's a little off, because it's not at all what I said :)

I'll quote myself, although I really shouldn't take it out of context because the context is very important:

"Hexagram 45 unchanging asks you to consider what you're investing your energy in, where you're placing the focus of your energy. It's about gathering various elements into an organised whole. My take on this is that that whole is you, and it's talking about you uniting with yourself, i.e. building yourself into a unity, a whole unit."

One of the key words is 'asks', because it's an unchanging hexagram.

In other words, you asked about how he perceives you, and the Yi asked you a question in return.

If you have Hilary's book I recommend reading her section on it, because there's a warning about overloading something with emotional energy, and the need to be watchful about the dangers of overinvestment.

The hexagram may also be a good metaphor for how he sees you. But in that case you'd still need to include the potential negatives and caveats that the hexagram points to.

Regards

Nebu
 

Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

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