4UC The Yi and covid vaccines

[flashlight]

Hi all,
Hope you are well and staying safe.
One has to see the humor in this......
I'm an at-risk person re Covid 19 and had been thinking about getting vaccinated (well, if there is a vaccine to be had, which is another story!) Had a long chat with my doctor, who is as divided as I am. He knows the grave risks if I catch the virus and at the same time points out we have zero hindsight on the possible short, med and long term consequences of the RNA messenger vaccines. I cannot have a traditional vaccine unless the virus is deactivated. Which excludes AstraZeneca, and J&J which isn't even available yet.
So -- I ask Yi: what would be the effect of having the Pfizer vaccine?
4UC.
What is Yi trying to tell me? "Heck if I know?", "Don't be an idiot"?
I'm really struggling with this "to be or not to be" vaccinated issue..
Thanks for your insights

 

[Trojina]

The one thing not to do when you get 40uc is dither and I think that's the main message to you here.

It isn't exactly telling you what to do but it is telling you to make your mind up fast which way you want to go. My overall sense, given there's a sense of 'c'mon get on with it/get off the fence' is Yi wouldn't be saying that if there were lots of time to ponder. And so my feeling is you are already decided to have it actually you just need to move on it. I think this has to be so otherwise you would have gotten quite a different answer. In a sense I think you're spot on with this

What is Yi trying to tell me? "Heck if I know?", "Don't be an idiot"?

Well yes, you're in a 'at risk' group and so what are you waiting for....

That's not just my opinion BTW. 40uc asks you move one way or the other without delay. I just don't think the 'don't delay' aspect would be part of the answer if this were a strong message not to have it.

 

[flashlight]

Thank you Trojina.
Usually, when I get 4 (UC or not), I interpret it as the Yi telling me either 1) stop mental masturbating (sorry, but it fits ) there is no right answer and even I, Yi, don't have one or 2)you are even nuts to think about it.
Your spin on the reading fits too!
I'm normally pretty good at objective benefit/risk analyses, but this one lands me 50/50. Also, I've not had "good luck" with vaccines in the past couple of decades. But covid would do me in too.
I'll heed the warning. if I can even get vaccinated. No more supplies where I am, not the right age group for the current set of allowed people, and the list of "at risk pathologies" that give you an age-free ticket in don't fit mine. Not sure even my doctor's insistant prescription would do the trick, the administration here does not always make sense (ex: lots of people in the current vaccination age group are healthy and at no risk while younger ones are not). I'll call monday and see what can be done. It wouldn't be for at least a month or so from what I can see from the planning calendar (if I can get in). Cross everything...

 

[Trojina]

Damn, sorry I read it as 40uc not 4uc so ignore me or take it as a meaningful mistake.

 

[flashlight]

yeah, it's been that kind of day. Imagine starting it by plugging the ash vacuum's hose into the wrong hole and ending up with a ground floor disappearing in a nuclear cloud of fine ash (that will take weeks to fully get rid of...!)

OK, tossing it back at ya' -- what's your take with a 4UC answer to my question?? :=)

 

[Trojina]

Um I don't know really.

Had a long chat with my doctor, who is as divided as I am.

To me there doesn't seem much choice. If you have a chance of the vaccine get it. I don't really know what the reasons not to are and the reasons get less the older one is. I can see a 25 year old might think twice given they aren't likely to get Covid badly anyway and they don't know the long term effects of vaccine and they have a lot of life left. If 65 however, well I mean why not ? I don't know how old you are but for me that's a factor. You can't be in the UK as I can't imagine any Dr here discouraging a person from the vaccine whatever kind, I think they'd be out of a job.

I cannot have a traditional vaccine unless the virus is deactivated.

I don't understand what that means.

Well you got 4 and someone who doesn't know what you mean answered you...

 

[Trojina]

I have met someone though who was very ill as a response to the Pfizer though I understand that's rare. She was off work for a week but not hospitalised. Googling I read that those who had already had Covid were more likely to react badly to the vaccine. I have no idea if that's true, I don't know much about it.

 

[Trojina]

He knows the grave risks if I catch the virus and at the same time points out we have zero hindsight on the possible short, med and long term consequences of the RNA messenger vaccines.

Maybe that's the 4, this isn't knowable at this time, we are in the dark, we aren't in a position to know more. If it isn't known then Yi can't tell you. Of course that begs the question surely Yi does 'know' but all I can say is there's no clarity to be had any time soon. Generally I think 4 advises you can't force knowledge, you have to be in the dark and honour the not knowing.


This doesn't really help you in your decision though.

 

[flashlight]

Thanks for giving it a shot (no pun intended) Trojina. Either way, I feel like I'm playing Russian roulette.
Indeed, I'm not in the UK, though I do know of some UK doctors who are not keen on the vaccines either because there is no knowledge yet of potential long term effects (as with other vaccines that seemed great and a few years later were pulled from the market...)
I'll take some zzz's and perhaps ask Yi another type of question tomorrow.

 

[Skywatcher]

Hi!

I believe that hexagram 4 asks you not to increase the proportion of problems and to wait for a better understanding of the situation before making a decision. It's as if you are 'speculating' on something that you are not yet fully oriented.
And at the right time, you'll know what to do and will be successful in your decision, as you will no longer be a student, an apprentice, but someone with experience and knowledge about the issue

 

[diamanda]

what would be the effect of having the Pfizer vaccine? 04 unchanging
The effect is an unknown at the time of the question. It's not a good time to have it.

 

[flashlight]

Thank you, Skywatcher & Diamanda. Yeah, the situation is opaque and arguments pro and con quite conflicting. Scary times... Stay safe all

 

[Trojina]

It doesn't seem very opaque to me, I mean no one around me is even hesitating, why would one ?

There is no better time to have it than now surely.

That's what I think not the reading but I don't think this is a thing to rely on readings for given not having it can kill you.

Possibly the 4 could have meant 'of course, don't be silly' though I think there's other answers that say that better.

 

[flashlight]

Vaccines are not benign and historically there have been enough cases of concern (and recalls). No doctor, scientist or government health agency can assert at this time that there are no medium or long term consequences to these vaccines because there just hasn't been enough time to assess. They are barely starting to collect data on side effects. So no, it's not something I would jump into with glee and without apprehension. Thus continuing to be careful and pondering.

 

[Trojina]

What country are you in as a matter of interest ? It's just there seems to be a big difference in attitudes to the vaccines according to country. Here in the UK 15 million people have had it, my whole family has had it, I will be getting it on Friday, the Queen and the prime minister have had it. None of that has any impact whatsoever on you, that's not why I am saying it, it's just I don't think people are pondering it very much here so I think the information being put out about it must be different in different countries.

 

[Trojina]

Hi!

I believe that hexagram 4 asks you not to increase the proportion of problems and to wait for a better understanding of the situation before making a decision. It's as if you are 'speculating' on something that you are not yet fully oriented.
And at the right time, you'll know what to do and will be successful in your decision, as you will no longer be a student, an apprentice, but someone with experience and knowledge about the issue

How is anyone ever going to be someone experienced and have knowledge about Covid ? How are they going to do that ? You can't wait 20 years to see what will happen meantime exposing yourself and others to Covid. It's just not feasible.

 

[Skywatcher]

How is anyone ever going to be someone experienced and have knowledge about Covid ? How are they going to do that ? You can't wait 20 years to see what will happen meantime exposing yourself and others to Covid. It's just not feasible.

Hi Trojina!
I'm afraid this become a political topic. The question was specifically about the interpretation of the Hexagram 4 taking into consideration the health condition of who asked the question and we all put the emphasis on impersonal interpretation. People can take different approaches to the same Hexagram.
The important thing is that we all stay safe, following hygiene rules for now. That's all we know and can do right now.

 

[flashlight]

I assure you Trojina, as a multicultural person who has lived all over the world, my concern about vaccines has nothing to do with any government discourse. Also, I'm not an anti-vaxxer and this is not a political issue for me in the least.

 

[Trojina]

I don't know where the idea I said anything about politics comes from as it certainly wasn't in my mind ! I didn't even use the word it's just different countries have different attitudes to it. That can be a cultural thing or just a difference not political !

It's a fact that some ethnic groups here aren't coming forward for the vaccine so clearly that's not a political thing but a cultural thing. Denying that would be denying the recorded facts.


Anyway I'll leave it here as I've been misunderstood.

 

[Liselle]

(By the end of this ridiculous post, I think I've decided if it was me, I'd do what you said and ask another question! Not what hexagram 4 usually advises, but...

Maybe even wait until you actually could get a vaccine, and then ask again? You can't do anything now anyway, so there's no need to decide now.

I understand wanting to have it settled, but - Skywatcher's point - maybe that's what 4's telling you? You're in a state of "Not Knowing," you're asking questions to try to settle it, maybe Yi's saying to stop, that will only muddle things. Maybe you and doctors and the world at large will know more, by that time?)

(later) Which might beg the question why Yi didn't give you 5, Waiting - I have no idea.

-----

'Not knowing, creating success.
I do not seek the young ignoramus, the young ignoramus seeks me.
The first consultation speaks clearly.
The second and third pollute the waters,
Polluted, and hence not speaking.
Constancy bears fruit.' (Hilary)

I wonder whose voice 4 is, who is the "I" in it? And who is the ignoramus?

It talks about "seeking" - you are the one seeking a vaccine, so does that imply the "I" is the vaccine? You're seeking it, it's not seeking you? No idea what to do with that, if it's true.

(Can we assume this is your first reading about this, not your 6th, just to cross that off the list of possibilities? )

Wonder if the next part could be about all the multi-dose uncertainty?

There are single-dose vs. multi-dose vaccines - and if you start with a multi-dose one, isn't there uncertainty over how much more immunity the second dose gives you, how long it's safe to wait to get it, whether second doses will be available when you need it, etc.? Or have they straightened that out? (I haven't been following it since I'm nowhere close to getting any vaccine.)

Hilary wrote an interesting blog post a few years ago, where she talked about how the name of hexagram 4, Meng, apparently means "dodder," a parasitic "covering" plant.
Dodder


The way she describes it, it sounds a lot like a virus, and/or a virus pandemic:

It’s a wholly parasitic plant: as soon as it germinates, the seedling senses the nearest green plant and grows towards it. (If it doesn’t reach a suitable host plant within a few days, it will die.) It twines around the host plant and sinks rootlets into its stem.

Its own root now dies off, and it grows no leaves of its own – most species of dodder actually produce no chlorophyll – but grows fast, spreading from one host plant to the next. Soon, it forms a tangled mass of fine, twisting stems that covers the host plants. It flowers and sets seed. The seeds aren’t wind-borne, but carried between plants by animals and humans. (Modern farmers are warned of the dangers of carrying dodder seed between fields on their tools and boots.)

She also mentions that dodder had medicinal uses in ancient China, and might have been seen as sacred. As she put it, "thinking of dodder [in readings] can still colour our sense of what it means to be ignorant: without roots of our own, parasitic, perhaps destructively so – but also growing, potent and maybe magical."

That sounds a lot like a vaccine, doesn't it? A vaccine takes a deadly thing and makes preventive medicine out of it.




I can see how all of that makes your reading sound relevant. But so far I can't see with any comfort how to apply it to answer your question.

"What would be the effect of having the Pfizer vaccine?"

Yi gives an image of a parasitic plant with possible medicinal uses

or

Yi gives an image of a vaccine, and talks about you seeking it, not it seeking you.



I even wonder whether the "seeking" part could mean herd immunity? If, that is - I have no idea - it could be taken as instructions: "Do not seek immunity, let immunity seek you."

After all, what are you really seeking? Not even a vaccine, per se - you're seeking immunity. Hexagram 4 = Meng = dodder = dangerous-turned-medicinal plant = vaccine = immunity?

But that would make your reading an indirect answer. That can happen, but Hilary usually says we shouldn't jump to that too fast.

 

[flashlight]

Wow Liselle, I've read your post twice and I think I'll have to read it again a few more times, it is so dense and rich, thank you for your time and care

Yes, it was the first time I asked Yi about vaccines and I haven't asked another yet, not in the right state.
For me, one or two shots matter not (the only one-shot coming soon is J&J's, and I can't have it because the virus it uses is not deactivated -- so far, only the Chinese vaccine does).

I like the image of the dodder, it speaks to me, but in a different way from what you wrote. Whether it is the virus (which goes an attack all your organs and makes your blood thick and sticky) or the vaccine (which does not really kill off disease, but makes it unable to take root -- the thing with vaccines is that they can do other damage that is unintended (and about which we learn only with enough hindsight).

I have no idea who the "I" is.
Nor, in this context, what "constancy bears fruit" might imply. The only constancy I can think of that makes sense is to be constant in being careful to not catch this thing. Going for a vaccine would be a brief action with long consequences, so I don't see where "constancy" would come in here.

Ah sigh, a real mind-bender reading huh?

 

[Liselle]

Oh good, I'm glad you got something out of that. I'd been kicking myself for babbling.

I wonder if "constancy bears fruit" might merely mean you can't get a vaccine for a while anyway, therefore there's no need to make up your mind or check with Yi about it right now. In the meantime, maybe they'll get a better idea how the vaccine affects people with your condition(s). Or something.

(The other thing that we know keeps changing is the virus itself, it keeps mutating. I haven't been keeping up with how that's affecting vaccines.)


At the risk of more yeeky babbling that I can't even entirely explain - this might also support the idea that Trojina's error was meaningful.

Turns out 40 is what's called the encounter nuclear of 4, one of three nuclear hexagrams in 4's nuclear family. (For people in Change Circle, Hilary wrote an article about it here.) (Please note I have almost no experience with these or feel for them, so take it all with lots of salt. But I guess there's no point ignoring it when it appears before you...)


Hexagram 4


Encounter nuclear 40 - where you first meet the hexagram/situation
(lines 1-2-3-2-3-4 of hexagram 4)


True nuclear 24 - the seed or potential
(lines 2-3-4-3-4-5)


Higher nuclear or "Telos," 23 - the goal or lesson to be learned
(lines 3-4-5-4-5-6)

It's pretty easy to see that you encountered this, cast the reading, in an attempt to make a decision, settle the matter, pick a path (hexagram 40).

But the true nuclear, the potential, 24. isn't in a hurry to do that. It waits until the snow melts and the light returns. (See both the Judgement and the Image text.) When you Don't Know, don't force anything. Don't rush to decide.

I don't know what to make of the Telos. 23's about erosion, layers stripped away. Maybe like planting a garden on a hillside that will wash away in the next rainstorm. You don't want to make a decision in an environment of Not Knowing. Anything "settled" might be stripped away.

 

[Liselle]

Maybe the Telos as a positive goal (not to mention the nuclear story as a story) could be...

If you can get past a desire to have this settled right now (encounter nuclear 40) -
and instead wait for some sort of turning point, renewal, or other "re-" thing to occur (true nuclear 24) -
maybe some sort of stripping-away will happen, in a good way (Telos 23's Image)?

Here's the Image text - Images are often said to be idealized forms of the hexagram. Hilary also says in that article that the Telos can be a higher potential.

'Mountain rests on the earth. Stripping Away.
The heights are generous, and there are tranquil homes below.'


We can wait and see. You're good about updating your threads, which is really helpful.

 

[flashlight]

Ohhhhh interesting... at least to me, how I reacted to the reading.
Asked a follow up question: What is the issue with me and getting vaccinated? (OK, so the phrasing sucked)
54.2.4 to 24
I understand it to mean -- keep being careful and socially isolating (ugh), delay decision until the time is right and then I'll be able to return to my own path (my life??)
Anyone have deeper/more insights?

 

[Liselle]

There's 24 again! And "constancy," in line 2.

I agree with what you said, and this reading sounds like it's reinforcing the first one. It's saying the "issue" is that you're a Marrying Maiden. Your health conditions and the uncertainty of how a vaccine might interact with them mean you're in a strange situation where you don't have power of choice and you're at the behest of things you can't control. You can't just decide to go and get a vaccine and have it over and done with, like most people can.

'With one eye, can see.
A hermit’s constancy bears fruit.'

'Marrying maiden overruns the set time.
Delays and marries at the right time.'

The lines make it sound like there might be a postive, active purpose for the isolation and waiting: bearing fruit, and marrying. Of course you don't know what the fruit is, nor what you might marry - you'll have to wait and see.

 

[flashlight]

Yup. Your interpretation is in harmony with what my tummy has to say about this reading!
Gawd, I love "hurry up and wait!"

 

[Yasmin]

Hi flashlight, I hear your dilemma! I am a pharmacist and actually worked in vaccine development for 10 years, so I keep an active interest. For what it’s worth, I think that 4UC does say “it is not known at this time”. Perhaps hit pause over this matter, and wait for things to evolve.

Now for non IChing but vaccine feedback- perhaps that by the time you become eligible for vaccination, something will have changed. Of the possibilities that come to mind:
1) the original clinical trial data will have close to a year of follow up, so they should start to see how long immunity lasts, and what happens when it drops, which is the main concern with mRNA vaccines.
2) several millions of people will have received Pfizer vaccine. So short term safety issues should become clearer
3) There could be new vaccine options- Sanofi GSK could get their act together to become available by next Fall, and that’s a super safe, well established platform.
4) The virus could have mutated into some other variant which is not receptive to the current vaccine,
5) the virus could mutate to a common cold or there could be herd immunity and no longer worth vaccinating

If you still do not have the answers by the time you get called in for vaccination, it becomes a pure risk/benefit exercise. The risk to you IF you were to catch it is high. But what is your risk of exposure? It’s not THAT easy to get Covid, if you observe the barrier measures... most infections happen within the home, usually students bring it home to parents etc... Can you keep isolating for as long as it takes? Conversely the risk of a nasty side effect with the mRNA vaccine is unknown, but in all likelihood not very high. I am sure you will have considered all that already I wish you all the best!

 

[Liselle]

What fabulous luck, having an expert here! Thanks, Yasmin!

 

[flashlight]

Thank you Yasmine! Wise words indeed!