55. Feng / Abundance [Fullness]

[rodaki]

not easy though . . humanity and excellence have a flawed relation

 

[rosada]

The image for 55 reads, "The superior man decides lawsuits and carries out punishments." I would have thought this meant at this time something important would be decided. But now I see it as meaning now is the time when something important SHOULD be decided, but that if you don't work things out now, the opportunity will have passed. We've been having discussions over on Open Space about how to deal with postings we find offensive. I would have thought by now there would have been some final resolution, but after pages and pages of discussion, everything out in the open like the midday sun, there is still no agreement... and what I find happening is my own interest has evaporated.
Maybe 55.6 is saying if you can't decide, if you can't come to an agreement, if you hold on too long waiting for a better offer, the moment passes and nobody cares anymore...

The fan yao is interesting..

30.6
The king uses him to march forth and chastise.
Then it is best to kill the leaders
And take captive the followers. No blame.

Asceticism that is too strict, like sentences of undue severity, fails in its purpose.
-Wilhelm

Maybe at 55.6 it's impossible to come to a final decision, that would be too strict, instead you just let it go..for three years?

 

[rodaki]

is it too late for sth more?

been re-reading the thread and thought again about the discriminating devices necessary for times of 55 and their worth in this last line

so if the line is to turn out on the positive side, one then will see clearly what needs to be done and proceed with no fuss to shed light to their own house

the other side of the line is probably someone clinging to discriminating devices even past their times. Holding onto uncalled for weapons and suspicious moods beyond their use seems to produce self-injury

p.s.: sense discrimination is a term also used in lexicography, to refer to the act of distinguishing different meanings of the same word . .

rodaki

 

[meng]

Quote:
Originally Posted by maremaria:
The ruler in that case, is the father, isn't it ?

If you insist.

Thought an addendum might be in order to clarify my meaning.

If someone insists, their ruler is the father, they view the world judmentally. 55

55 is about judging, the heaven/sun executes his judgment. So, is that the ruler one chooses? If so, they can expect lots of insisting and judging.

On the other hand, within the mother is protection and nourishment: the dark path. No judgment. (a core of taoism)

The idea that the father is always the one to run to is where we get the image of a holy God "up there", while we mere pee ons are down here. It is a master/slave relationship. And that is the cause of judgment upon ourselves and others. It is the way of all wars.

Course not saying 55 is bad. There's time when severity is called for.

 

[rosada]

Interesting how the image of 55. compares to 56.

55. Image
Thus the superior man decides lawsuits
And carries out punishments.

56. Image
Thus the superior man
Is clear-minded and cautious
Ii imposing penalties,
And protracts no lawsuits.

As if to say, after the experience of having to decide all those lawsuits, the superior man figures out how to avoid them in the first place.
rosada

 

[meng]

Nice segue.

 

[maremaria]

Thought an addendum might be in order to clarify my meaning.


.

Yes, it did ! Reading your example I made another association.

Now its clearer what is behind the “father” and “mother” of your example? Line 4 is about choices and decisions , among other things, so choosing the “father” as a ruler with the attributes you describe doesn’t fit to the “likeminded”

Thanks

 

[meng]

so choosing the “father” as a ruler with the attributes you describe doesn’t fit to the “likeminded”

Well, it might. I think it's a choice each time who to follow and which is like-minded. But it's always seemed to me that 55 especially presents this choice in a diametric way.

Certainly there's times to rise big and bold and bright like the sun at midday, and to let your judgments be known. Then there's times when our brightness is so overshadowed that it's impossible to be seen or heard at all, though we may be burning inside. Then it's an important to seek a ruler in that darkness, who is of like mind.

 

[maremaria]

( I put the question mark in the wrong place in the other post… Not wise to write after 3 mojitos in a XL glass )

Seems like the rulers in that line are more than one. You meet them and choose with whom you bond and with whom you disengage

 

[rodaki]

Seems like the rulers in that line are more than one. You meet them and choose with whom you bond and with whom you disengage

hi Maria,

if I may, I'd like to make a comment here . .
Your last post seems to be headed again towards the idea of a sovereign will at work. I still believe there is no room for that in line 4 (the minister line), without that implying a state of helplessness. To my eyes the line describes a process of adaptation/following rather than choice.
In line 3 the arm is broken, I see that as the will of the self being out of the equation
In line 5 you just let things take their course
Between the broken arm and the recovery you put your arm in plaster (i.e. you meet and accept the exigency of the situation, that is what guides you)
In other words, you go to sleep, in sleep you don't decide what to do or see, you let the undercurrents show you.
Or else, the sprout does not choose which way to grow, it just grows where the surrounding landscape allows it
You're saying there are more than one rulers, I insist there is no active rulership at work;
by multiplying rulers you are creating more tension, more tears in the fabric, more dichotomies
Not saying there are none in line 4 but where they exist they are caused precisely by inserting the will in this context. According to the story of 55, the young prince wants to mourn, but he is not allowed, even if he is a ruler-in-the-making there is still no room for making decisions, for imposing a will.
In the nuclear 28, line 4 of 55 becomes either line 3 (beam is weak) or line 5 (a natural evolution, no blame no praise: there is no prize here to be won, no badge of honour)
just to finish this off, I understand that in the line we still cannot see things clearly, we are just groping and trusting the hunch -kinda like the blind leading the blind (no certainties at work). .
how does it sound to you??

 

[meng]

I'm not seeing the idea of sovereign will at work in line 4, nor in what Maria (or I) have said. My own take is more of a territorial lord, a ruler of that particular domain.

 

[rodaki]

I think that choices always imply the imposition of a will . . make categories and then choose what to take . . 'category' actually means 'accusation' so we're back in the court
I dunno, is the wind a lord? it is the outcome of a vastly chaotic process . .

 

[meng]

And, what I think is more important is that ones lord is with you no matter where you go. Meeting him/her is recognizing ones bigger reality and greater facility.

 

[meng]

I dunno, is the wind a lord? it is the outcome of a vastly chaotic process . .

Figuratively, and in the spirit of what we're talking about, yes, I would consider the wind a lord or ruler. Sure, a result of chaotic process, as is everything!

 

[rodaki]

 

[meng]

Btw, it's probably relevant to mention, on Maria's 14.6 thread, I wrote "Heaven's Way". I distinctly did not write "Heaven's Will". There's a huge difference.

 

[maremaria]

how does it sound to you??

Hmm, not sure if I understand you. To adapt or to follow isn’t a choice ?

rodaki : According to the story of 55, the young prince wants to mourn, but he is not allowed, even if he is a ruler-in-the-making there is still no room for making decisions, for imposing a will.

From Lise’s site

Before he could finally attack the Shang he died, and his son, Wu, had to start the time of mourning: staying away from daily life for three years. This is described in the top line of hex.55.
At that moment, at noon, an eclipse took place. Wu asked the oracle about mourning, and the oracle said: pitfall. He asked about not mourning, and the oracle said: no mourning, an Yi sacrifice at noon.

I see a choice here too. He had or wanted to mourn but external factors asked for something else. In that case , the prince was not a “ruler” meaning that something else was more powerful at that moment. But he choose, I think.

 

[rodaki]

Wu asked the oracle

but that's the thing! when we trust the oracle we are not taking matters into our own hands, we are letting go . .
just like when we fall asleep, or let the doctors do their job, or like a sprout finds its way to light ..
if you still want to see it as if it is an I that decides to sleep, get the plaster or grow, then so be it . . I just think it is not a decision/choice but the giving up of such conscious, willful acts . .

 

[fkegan]

Hex 55 as the process of timing

Hi All,

Hex 55 is the fifth hexagram of the decad beginning with hex 51 which is the power of the Divine to affect the human heart, like a thunderclap shaking one up, unless one is very focused with the ceremonial spoon and chalice. It has Yang lines only in the first and fourth place, the transition from the prior and the heart, so the heart being thunderstruck is what the whole decad is about.

Hex 55 is the middle of process or how one becomes thunderstruck in the heart--by exquisite timing having an intense subjective impact. The sun at high noon or the total solar eclipse are events of this kind.

Now a question for us all. The Yi Oracle of 55.3,5 >> 17. Not as the answer to any specific question, but as an existential example of the inner workings of this hexagram.

Line 3 refers to personal passion in this exquisite timing which tends to lead one into the thick underbrush where you can see stars at the special timing of High Noon. Such passion without clarity of vision can lead one into difficulties where you could break your arm.

Line 5 refers to the overall organization and clear insight of the good King. This exquisite timing of the total solar eclipse brings forth blessing, fame and good fortune.

So, both together means?

Frank

 

[maremaria]

but that's the thing! when we trust the oracle we are not taking matters into our own hands, we are letting go . .
just like when we fall asleep, or let the doctors do their job, or like a sprout finds its way to light ..
if you still want to see it as if it is an I that decides to sleep, get the plaster or grow, then so be it . . I just think it is not a decision/choice but the giving up of such conscious, willful acts . .

I believe Yi gives advises ( among other things). The decision is mine to accept the advice or not. At least this is the relationship I prefer. Even if there are situations that seems we don't have a choice, I believe that there is somewhere hidden.

I still see a choice in line 55.4 , but this is just my point of view.

Maria

 

[maremaria]

its the difference between 'heaven's will" and "heaven's way", Meng said earlier. ( I think)
In my 14.6 situation, I felt like a way opened in front of me , but I had to say some "yes" and some "no".

 

[meng]

its the difference between 'heaven's will" and "heaven's way", Meng said earlier. ( I think)
In my 14.6 situation, I felt like a way opened in front of me , but I had to say some "yes" and some "no".

I like that. Discerning heaven's way.

One way of discerning is using 63 and 64 illustrations. 63 is the law, 64 is the way. So what we establish as fixed and finished in our lives (our moral and physical limits, etc) is 63, our law. What is still negotiable and malleable is 64, our way. Whether "my way" or "heaven's way", or "my law" or "heaven's law", that's worth discerning also; ie, how much that we attribute to being heaven's way or law is really our own way or law, or vice verse. That entire thought process could be seen as heaven's way - a way that isn't always neat, clean and easy.

 

[rodaki]

In my 14.6 situation, I felt like a way opened in front of me , but I had to say some "yes" and some "no".

that's ok, we don't have to agree -my experience of 55.4 was one were reins had to be loose enough for whatever 'meeting' to occur and actually it wasn't out of choice, but mostly out of an urgent need since my rational arm was 'broken' . . and the following induced might not always agree with my personal yes/nos -ego often resists following

meng: One way of discerning is using 63 and 64 illustrations. 63 is the law, 64 is the way. So what we establish as fixed and finished in our lives (our moral and physical limits, etc) is 63, our law. What is still negotiable and malleable is 64, our way. Whether "my way" or "heaven's way", or "my law" or "heaven's law", that's worth discerning also; ie, how much that we attribute to being heaven's way or law is really our own way or law, or vice verse. That entire thought process could be seen as heaven's way - a way that isn't always neat, clean and easy.

. . I think I have to let that simmer for awhile

 

[maremaria]

that's ok, we don't have to agree

 

[maremaria]

Meng, I can understand 63 as fixed and finished and 64 as negotiable and malleable.

But the following is difficult to grasp.

One way of discerning is using 63 and 64 illustrations. 63 is the law, 64 is the way. .

How you associate 63 with law and 64 the way ?. Is it because law is fixed and the way is kind of more open ?

 

[meng]

How does this work for you...

a river is 64

a picture of a river is 63

a song is 64

the recording of a song is 63

hm, this helps me understand a 63 reading, I had posted here. It had to do with modifying a guitar. I interpreted 63 as meaning to take to someone qualified.. someone who has crossed over the education river and now knows what they're doing: a professional. But in this light I can also see 63 as the schematic of the guitar. hmh..

 

[meng]

Is it because law is fixed and the way is kind of more open ?

Yes. The way is cooperative, spontaneous, unpredictable, unfathomable.

 

[rodaki]

a river is 64

a picture of a river is 63

a song is 64

the recording of a song is 63

ah yes . . undone done

 

[maremaria]

How does this work for you...

a river is 64

a picture of a river is 63

a song is 64

the recording of a song is 63

..

Perfect !!! Nice visual

hm, this helps me understand a 63 reading, I had posted here. It had to do with modifying a guitar. I interpreted 63 as meaning to take to someone qualified.. someone who has crossed over the education river and now knows what they're doing: a professional. But in this light I can also see 63 as the schematic of the guitar. hmh..

So, in a 64 phase of your 63 reading...
It never stops, lol. We believe that we have grasp it and then something comes up and 64, 63, 64, 63...

 

[meng]

yup :bag: