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56.5 - help!

dobro p

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yi yu ming - what's it mean lol?

Does it arise out of the successful shooting of the pheasant, or does the successful shooting of the pheasant arise out of it?
 

dobro p

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Shooting the bird comes first, right?

As a result which comes praise and some sort of appointment or mandate, right?
 

hilary

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Right. Balkin says, 'Shooting a pheasant and presenting it as a gift demonstrates both accomplishment and liberality' and wins the traveller a position. In other words, he's arrived.

There's plenty more to dig into, of course. 'Ming' is a loaded sort of a word.
 

fkegan

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Cause and effect or two images simultaneously

There are two options:
1) that you shoot the pheasant and then use that inducement to buy yourself an office and great honor eventually--like becoming a celebrity by winning a reality show and then being hired for some good job due to your celebrity.

2) They are two parallel images. You have your mojo working, shoot a single arrow and it brings down a pheasant. The Wilhelm notes the Chinese could also mean you lose the arrow. That is, you know bringing down the flying pheasant is way, way about your established abilities, shooting the arrow must be weighed as just losing an arrow shooting at the sky. However, you see that things are going your way, you now have confidence that you can accomplish great things. You now go after success in terms of getting a government job with a good rep.

Basically, these are the Confucian and Taoist perspectives upon the text. May be helpful to note the process of the hexagram. It is the image (to my mind based upon seeing it happen) of the disc of the sun rising behind a big, impressive mountain. It is already light since the sun has come up over the horizon a while ago, but just not ascended the extra mound of Earth which is the mountain. By the fifth line, the top of the disc of the sun has just barely poked up over the mountain, making the mountain look like it is on fire and the whole mountain looks very dark with the sparkling diamond of this celestial fire crowning its summit. Then in the next line, the whole of the disc of the sun has passed, all the awesome majesty of the fifth line is gone, and it is just a normal, sunny day with the sun in the sky and the mountain firmly upon the Earth.

So, I assume literally there is first a bird shot, then success. But it also describes the two independent lines of development. One is the sense of shooting the bird with one arrow--ancient Chinese equivalent of a golfer's hole in one on a par 5 hole. The next independent line is the exact congruence of timing that will make for the sun as diamond set in the mountain top. The office and fame are marks of great timing. It is a matter of do you feel magic or see simple politics in the situation.

Frank
 

mudpie

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omg, I have nothing to wear, and tomrrow night is the ball, oy yi, yu ming I gotta find something right away? oy yi! what am i gonna do? 56.5. take a trip to the mall, you find the right dress in the first place you look, you buy it, you wear it, you look mahvelous dahling
 

dobro p

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Very good stuff in this thread, and very useful to me. (I should ask more questions here, I think.) Thanks you guys.

ps Hilary - yes, ming is loaded. It works on different levels, and in different dimensions, I think. It can be a physical, mental, or spiritual mandate.
 

Trojina

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I've seen rather different interpretations of 56.5 - somewhere here, (maybe Brads )- that this is a line of mediocrity. The arrow being tethered and the prey being in the cave theres hardly any big skill in shooting it. That this is about being pretty limited in your scope and efforts. Your not exactly aiming high so you can't expect much. Pretty humdrum.

I think I'd put more store in this angle on it - never known the line mean to bag anything of import (in my experience anyway)

I also recall a fairly long discussion somehwere over this being a chicken in the cave, lol
 

hilary

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That'd be 62.5, not 56.5. Arrows everywhere.

On reflection, I probably shouldn't say 'he's arrived.' He's found a secure place that offers him important work. Not necessarily the ultimate expression of who he is... though given the following line, that might be just as well.
 

Trojina

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That'd be 62.5, not 56.5. Arrows everywhere.

On reflection, I probably shouldn't say 'he's arrived.' He's found a secure place that offers him important work. Not necessarily the ultimate expression of who he is... though given the following line, that might be just as well.

:eek: :eek: :confused: Oh dear these two lines have been inseperable in my mind, I must have been reading them as each other for years - good job you pointed it out lol
 

charly

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yi yu ming - what's it mean lol?

Does it arise out of the successful shooting of the pheasant, or does the successful shooting of the pheasant arise out of it?
Dobro:

I believe that this is a story on the dexterity of the traveller, but not about the dexterity in archery.

W/B says that the pheasant falls at the first arrow, but the comments are about people established in a strange country and looking for friends.

See the chinese text:

射she4: shoot /
雉zhi4: pheasant /
一yi1: one / single / a /
矢shi3: arrow /
亡wang2: to die / to perish / to lose / lost / to disappear /
終zhong1: end / finish /
以yi3: to use / according to / so as to / in order to / by / thereby / with / because /
譽yu4: reputation / reputable /
命ming4: life / fate /
[When] shooting [a] pheasant one arrow [is] lost.
Ending thereby [in a] reputable life.


The chinese text don't say that the pheasant was reached by the arrow :eek:, BUT THAT THE AROW WAS LOST.

An arrow isn't a bullet, isn't a cartridge, if you get the target you don't miss the arrow, you recover it.

The only way to miss an arrow is shooting it far from you, were you cann't recover it.

The wanderer failed the shot with the true purpose of getting a friend, the grateful pheasant. And everybody knows that a grateful animal grants luck, wealth and love.

Wilhelm knows it but he concealed the meaning of the story. Who should want to be at the service of anybody (although a prince) when he could be lucky, rich and loved ? :rolleyes:

SAVE THE PHEASANTS !

Charly
 

fkegan

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pheasant revolution?

Dobro:

I believe that this is a story on the dexterity of the traveller, but not about the dexterity in archery.

W/B says that the pheasant falls at the first arrow, but the comments are about people established in a strange country and looking for friends.

See the chinese text:

射she4: shoot /
雉zhi4: pheasant /
一yi1: one / single / a /
矢shi3: arrow /
亡wang2: to die / to perish / to lose / lost / to disappear /
終zhong1: end / finish /
以yi3: to use / according to / so as to / in order to / by / thereby / with / because /
譽yu4: reputation / reputable /
命ming4: life / fate /
[When] shooting [a] pheasant one arrow [is] lost.
Ending thereby [in a] reputable life.


The chinese text don't say that the pheasant was reached by the arrow :eek:, BUT THAT THE AROW WAS LOST.

An arrow isn't a bullet, isn't a cartridge, if you get the target you don't miss the arrow, you recover it.

The only way to miss an arrow is shooting it far from you, were you cann't recover it.

The wanderer failed the shot with the true purpose of getting a friend, the grateful pheasant. And everybody knows that a grateful animal grants luck, wealth and love.

Wilhelm knows it but he concealed the meaning of the story. Who should want to be at the service of anybody (although a prince) when he could be lucky, rich and loved ? :rolleyes:

SAVE THE PHEASANTS !

Charly

Wilhelm does note in Section III that Chu Hsi uses the interpretation that the arrow is lost. I don't quite get your cover up allegation: "Wilhelm knows it but he concealed the meaning of the story."

I included that in my post #4 in the 2) paragraph "shooting the arrow must be weighed as just losing an arrow shooting at the sky" an alternative that allows for the arrow to be lost when it left the bow, but to have struck the pheasant, an ancient Chinese 'hail Mary' pass. A modern CSI would certainly take the time and high technology to recover the spent arrows, but it was obvious to the ancient hunters, and if there were trees or rocks in the area, it could be damaged even if available to recover.

I am unaware of anything in Chinese or pheasant thinking where a pheasant would be grateful to be shot at and missed at all, and especially to shower riches upon the shooter. Do pheasants really control jobs and social reputations? :confused: Overall these pheasants would have been dead in any event, shot or not, millennia ago.

There is a long and venerated (at least amongst its ilk) tradition of focusing upon the words to the exclusion of the meaning. Clinging to the one interpretation of the ancient Chinese term as "lost" to the exclusion of other viable translations, and then constructing the meaning of the entire text to highlight that special possibility is a great example of textual analysis of that ilk.

Fortunately, in the Yi we have the oracle meaning of the hexagram moving line to guide interpretation. The Crown of Just Passing (hex 56.5) >> Flight or as others have noted this line in an oracle is felt in practice to be the magically good timing that enables the sense of "take off" or getting to a higher level.

Or as the Taoist translation types would say, "different strokes for different folks." ;)

Frank
 

hilary

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I'm absolutely all in favour of saving pheasants (though they're such stupid birds it'd be hard work), but there's nothing to stop one parsing the line as 'with one arrow, it perishes' as far as I can see. Also, you don't get wealth and luck in response, but praise and a job. Sorry, I think this is a dead pheasant.
 
M

meng

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A wanderer is not necessarily a beggar. I think the idea expressed is that he's able to feed and fend for himself, and this wins respect.
 

Sparhawk

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but there's nothing to stop one parsing the line as 'with one arrow, it perishes' as far as I can see.

Ahem..., Dobro..., er..., I mean Clyde...; I think we found Bonnie... :D
 
M

meng

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It's easier to find a good job when you have a good job. If not a good job then a good resume. If not a good resume at least an impressive degree. If not a degree then fire in your eyes. You'll need some sort of pheasant to present.
 

martin

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yi yu ming - what's it mean lol?

Does it arise out of the successful shooting of the pheasant, or does the successful shooting of the pheasant arise out of it?

Neither of the two? I think there is no causal relationship. The pheasant symbolizes the king and the line means something like "As a stranger in this country, you cannot expect to become (or even come near) the king, but a good position is still possible".
This assuming that the "arrow" indeed misses the target, i.e. that it doesn't hit the king or comes anywhere near him.

(I'm a bit late because there was a problem with Bella and Luis' dragon. But Bella is safe now and Luis' house burnt down. 56.3! :mischief:)
 

Sparhawk

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(I'm a bit late because there was a problem with Bella and Luis' dragon. But Bella is safe now and Luis' house burnt down. 56.3! :mischief:)


Hey! Are you with the Cow Liberation Army? That is my own cow!! I was expecting something like this from you. That's why I gave your other cow, Dorothy, to Frank... :D
 
M

meng

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The king or emperor is symbolized by the dragon, not the pheasant. The dragon/pheasant motif symbolized the natural world. Therefore, presenting a pheasant to the emperor would have been a perfect compliment and complement.
 

charly

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I'm absolutely all in favour of saving pheasants (though they're such stupid birds it'd be hard work), but there's nothing to stop one parsing the line as 'with one arrow, it perishes' as far as I can see. Also, you don't get wealth and luck in response, but praise and a job. Sorry, I think this is a dead pheasant.
Hilary:

I'm affraid that I didn't get to be understood. Maybe pheasants are stupid birds but Princes generally are not. I don't believe that anybody could get praise and Job with only making a gif of a pheasant.

I only pointed that whe Wilhelm says «It drops with the first arrow» he is not translated the plain text, but making an interpretation based in the custom that he describes later:

Traveling statesman were in the habit of introducing themselves to local princes with the gift of a pheasant, killing it at the first shot. Thus he finds friends who praise and recommend him, and in the end the prince accepts him and confers an office upon him.
W/B

But the original text doesn't speak of KILLING the pheasant, I have neither altered the parsing nor the meaning of the words.

射she4 雉zhi4 。
一yi1 矢shi3 亡wang2 。
終zhong1以yi3 譽yu4 命ming4 。
parsing from Harvard Yenching

As by the standard parsing it is clear that WANG applies to the arrow, not to the pheasant, tha's the reason why Wilhelm needed to add extra words that are not in the text (It drops with...).

I quote another translations:

  • While pheasan shooting he loses an arrow. (Blofeld)
  • He shot a pheasant with one arrow. It disappeared. (Rick Kunst)
  • He shots a pheasant losing an arrow.(K.Huang)
  • Shoots a pheasant. One arrow vanishes. (Wu Jing-Nuan)
  • This one has but an arrowto shot at a pheasant. Although it is lost in the end, because of his reputation, he is given an appointment. (R.Lynn)

Only Kunst an Wu respected the parsing but all of them translated WANG in the same sense. Even Wilhelm used to translate WANG as to disappear.

I don't remember to have seen WANG translated as TO KILL, but as TO DIE.

Maybe it is hard to stop killing pheasants in fact, as it is not easy to stop killing persons.

But it is easy to stop killing pheasants when reading the YI.

Yours,

Charly
 
M

meng

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Oops, just found where the pheasant also was a symbol of authority, so maybe Martin's right about the king.
 
M

meng

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The pheasant represented the empress, as one of twelve symbols. Huh, that would fit with the dragon/pheasant complement.
 

charly

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Wilhelm does note in Section III that Chu Hsi uses the interpretation that the arrow is lost...

Thus Wilhelm knew it.

... A modern CSI would certainly take the time and high technology to recover the spent arrows, but it was obvious to the ancient hunters, and if there were trees or rocks in the area, it could be damaged even if available to recover.

If you can take the pheasant, why you cann't recover the arrow? Ancient chinese had arrow recovery technology indeed. They attach a string to the arrow, mainly when shooting birds.

...I am unaware of anything in Chinese or pheasant thinking where a pheasant would be grateful to be shot at and missed at all, and especially to shower riches upon the shooter. Do pheasants really control jobs and social reputations? :confused: Overall these pheasants would have been dead in any event, shot or not, millennia ago.

... There is a long and venerated (at least amongst its ilk) tradition of focusing upon the words to the exclusion of the meaning. Clinging to the one interpretation of the ancient Chinese term as "lost" to the exclusion of other viable translations, and then constructing the meaning of the entire text to highlight that special possibility is a great example of textual analysis of that ilk.

I'm not alone in translating WANG as TO LOSE, Wilhelm used to translate it as TO DISAPPEAR, allmost all recognized translators do the same. I post to Hilary about this.

I'm not excluding any «viable translation», even more, I believe that all of it are true because of the polisemy of the chinese language.

... the magically good timing that enables the sense of "take off" or getting to a higher level.

I agree with you. I feel that the interpretation of getting praise and job by means of the gift of a pheasant lacks of magic atmosphere.

But if you give the pheasant the grace of his life you will gain the grace of friendship, you have more long-term goals instead of the inmediate satisfaction of killing or the poor satisfaction of submit yourself to the powerful.

This in the ancient tradition of folk wiseness that invented the grateful animals, maybe more ancient than learned and written philosophical traditions.

I believe.

Yours,

Charly
 

martin

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Oops, just found where the pheasant also was a symbol of authority, so maybe Martin's right about the king.

I don't know really, it just seems to make sense to me to interpret the line in this way. In line 5, the "royal" position, the traveler might very well start to play with the idea of becoming king and the line says "no, that's not possible for a foreigner".
Even if the pheasant doesn't stand for the king it makes sense. Perhaps the pheasant symbolizes the dream of being a king then? :)
 

martin

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Hey! Are you with the Cow Liberation Army? That is my own cow!! I was expecting something like this from you. That's why I gave your other cow, Dorothy, to Frank... :D

Holy cow! You have a cow too? And you still didn't eat her? :D
 
M

meng

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I don't know really, it just seems to make sense to me to interpret the line in this way. In line 5, the "royal" position, the traveler might very well start to play with the idea of becoming king and the line says "no, that's not possible for a foreigner".
Even if the pheasant doesn't stand for the king it makes sense. Perhaps the pheasant symbolizes the dream of being a king then? :)

Could be.

What sits right with me, though, is that it's better to show up in a foreign land with the skill to take care of yourself, rather than signing up for welfare.
 

charly

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It's easier to find a good job when you have a good job. If not a good job then a good resume. If not a good resume at least an impressive degree. If not a degree then fire in your eyes. You'll need some sort of pheasant to present.
Meng:

You say some sort of pheasant, maybe only a pheasant is not enough to get a good Job.

I believe that it's more easy to get social recognition and high rank jobs by means of a «magic bird» than giving cheap gifts to Very Important Persons.

Kings and Nobles had all the pheasants they want, even more, they owned all the hunting rights, pheasants included.

Maybe common people shooting pheasants goes to jail no matter how skilled they could be.

Maybe some technology could help:

2005apr_amazingturkey1-JNA.jpg
From: http://www.strictlybowhunting.com/Anov01issue/2005apr_amazingturkey-JNA.htm

Yours,

Charly
 

charly

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The pheasant represented the empress, as one of twelve symbols. Huh, that would fit with the dragon/pheasant complement.
Meng:

雉zhi4 = pheasant has two components: ARROW and BIRD, meaning, maybe:

  • armed bird
  • bird born to be shot

Say,
you have a PHEASANT = a Royal Bird
you take off the ARROW, the weapon
it remains only a modest BIRD

Yours,

Charly
 

fkegan

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Luis,
I checked out Web Images of Argentine asado, and they are indeed naked and looking like torture victims---delicious though. Not quite what I would expect Dorothy to taste like much.

Charly,
I checked on Gia-Fu Feng's translation for the line and he agrees with you the word is "lost", specifically: "SHOOTING A PHEASANT. FIRST SHOT LOST. IN THE END, FAME AND REWARD. Perseverance brings friends and success." Gia-Fu used Zest to translate what Wilhelm rendered as Perseverance, so this use means the traveler is moving along at a good clip, takes a single shot at the pheasant, it doesn't connect and the traveler just keeps going, trying other opportunities that eventually bring him his friends, fame, and success. Not magically but just "if at first you don't succeed, try, try again." And if you have a bus to catch, you will have to keep going till your success is right in your path.

In my correspondence with the Sabian Symbols--this line becomes: "A magnificent jewelry shop is revealed, containing every conceivable article of value or beauty." And my commentary connecting the two: "Value captured while kept in motion. This is excellence to be appreciated. It is the dynamic which is truly important, the tangible objects only symbolic trappings whose continued appearance depends upon their free flow." Or turnover is the key to retail success whether or not you make a profit upon any particular sale.

As an oracle line, this one is all about great timing that works out great. What shooting at a pheasant and losing the arrow has to say about that seems to depend upon fine details of the thoughts added to the words. Wilhelm seems to have preferred a simple, logical, linear (Germanic) conclusion. Gia-Fu preferred the notion of a fast moving traveler who made his success by his ongoing series of activities. Overall, I would say of this line in text and oracle use--Long shot at shooting a pheasant for the standard presentation gift. Doesn't bother noticing what happened to his arrow, just keeps trucking along and looking for available opportunities, finds them in due course for great success.

Frank

Gia-Fu Feng and Taoist translation of I Ching: http://www.stars-n-dice.com/gia-futext.html
 
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hilary

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Thanks for the translations and thought-food, Charly :)

Have to run... pheasants to catch before tomorrow's class...
 
M

meng

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Charly, what practical and usable meaning do you give this line? since magic pheasants aren't easy to find, much less to shoot.
 

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