63.3 and 64.4

[ginnie]

What's the difference between 63.3 and 64.4?

63.3 > 3
The high ancestor attacks the Demon Country.
Three years go round, and he overcomes it.
Don't use small people.

The implication seems to be that he might have saved himself the time and trouble and not bothered with this at all.

Maybe the implication is that the high ancestor could have done something better with those three years and all those resources?

I think hex 63 applies in general to activities that recur. That is, you finish it, whatever it is, and that was good. And then that work starts again. It's referring to something cyclical.

64.4 > 4
Constancy, good fortune, regrets vanish.
The Thunderer uses this to attack the Demon Country.
Three years go round, and there are rewards in the great city.

The implication here is that one must take action this on immediately. The same barbarian tribe is mentioned. Hilary's I Ching notes that those darned barbarians never gave up causing trouble. In 64.4, the text implies it's definitely okay to act now as the Thunderer, the fierce warrior.

Often we are our own worst enemies, and our own bad habits ought to impel us to take action immediately. I'm not sure a military-type struggle is the actual suggestion here but rather what we now call a 'pro-active approach.'

But to struggle against a bad habit ... Isn't that now known to be a rather ineffective way to succeed? The latest research says the most effective way to rid ourselves of bad habits is to acquire new good habits: learn something entirely new.

Oh, that's the hexagram 4 !!! Hex 4 is about teaching and learning. I feel like I've just discovered something

My feeling upon getting 64.4 the other day was that I didn't want to start all over again, though.

Please share your experiences with either 63 or 64.

 

[chingching]

There is something about these hexagrams that syas this is a big/bigger situation than you think and out of all of the hexes I tend to ask sunsequent questions for these two.

Constancy, good fortune, regrets vanish.
The Thunderer uses this to attack the Demon Country.

Doesnt say constantly struggling against a bad habit. My impression was that constancy alone, comitment of some sort , perhaps commiting to new habit like running every day, brings good fortune etc. And this can be used as a weapon against the little demon on my shoulder whispering '...chocolate...' ... I mean metaphorically speaking of course...

And this make sense in 64 because you are crossing an unknown river. If you ran every day for 10 minutes for three years you would have improved fitness, probably would lose weight and would have better looking legs anyway, I'm sure much more in depth things can be said about your question, out of the two 63 confuses me more. 64 was the answer to the first yi reading i ever did.

 

[bradford]

Whoever translated missed the point in 63.3 by using the present tense.
This is about lessons learned from actions past, already complete, just as the other
line is about gearing up for actions still to be done.

 

[sooo]

of the two 63 confuses me more.

warning: The following finds little support or agreement here. Consider at your own risk of ridicule and correction.

I've stopped seeing 63 as already across, and now see it as already crossing. I'm not qualified to argue the point grammatically, but I can sure testify to black and white examples of 63 referring to something which obviously was not already completed nor across, but where I had committed to, and was already in the process of completing.

I've sited one example here, of reinstalling/replacing electric guitar pickups. It was a bit more complicated than an average guitar, and required a few fine solders. My eyes not being what they once were, I wasn't sure if I could complete it, but I went ahead and cut the wires. Then I asked Yi the best way to proceed, and received 63. I had already cut the wires, though I was far from reaching the other side. The advice in 63 helped my mind to find a way to complete it.

I appreciate Wilhelm's description of 63.3 too. It is a case where the crossing has already been made, physically, but now is when things usually become rebellious and chaotic; people are land, money or power grabbing from the new found or conquered territory. Want to see chaos erupt? Give a million dollars to a family getting by on average worker's pay. Ordinary people can turn into selfish demonic brats instantly. Line 3 is the time when that element of completing something has to be reckoned with.

 

[sooo]

64.4 is the part of the planning stage where such things are anticipated and solutions are developed. "What if it rains on our camping trip? Is there an alternative plan, or should we just bring lots of rain gear? Last year, that devil of a wind came up and nearly spoiled it."

 

[ginnie]

Whoever translated missed the point in 63.3 by using the present tense....already complete ...

That battle was already waged and won. Yes, I see that now. It's great to have this totally clarified, Brad.

I want to add to the ideas around 63 that this activity might be cyclical or recurring. For example, as soon as one closes out the year in the accounting system or files the tax forms, then the arduous activity of settling those things is done. But the bookkeeping must begin again. Maybe not tomorrow, but one is definitely going to have to re-visit this later on.

63 does not point to death, in other words. At least, I don't think it does. I might be wrong about that.

There are certain types of issues that once they are settled, will have to be re-opened at a later date, because they either tend to recur, or they definitely will recur. That's the best way I can say this right at the moment ...

 

[ginnie]

people are land, money or power grabbing from the new found or conquered territory. ... Ordinary people can turn into selfish demonic brats instantly.

I love your avatar, sooo. It is sooo cooool.

Is that the meaning of 63.3? The ones causing the disorder have already been rendered helpless, or you have already gotten them under control, so don't fight that same battle over again?

I mean, they are acting up and maybe asking for more and causing you a lot of trouble probably. But basically, there's nothing here you have to do with this. That is, it's not your problem.

Is that what you would say, Brad?

I think it's not my problem in 63.3 because I don't have the energy or inclination to deal with troublemakers all the time. Although sometimes I am tempted to set disorderly people right.

Hex 63 unchanging is interpreted by me not as the end but rather as a suggestion to keep the kettle on the boil: As in the picture of the hexagram, the fire below, and the water (which I see contained in a kettle), above. "Watch this. Keeping attending to it."

 

[ginnie]

64.4 ... the planning stage

I'm so glad you said "planning stage," soooo.

That fits in nicely with The Thunderer uses this ...

That concept of using something as an issue is seen elsewhere in the I Ching and I find it spotlighted (in my own mind) by your comment, sooo.

This issue, the question we were asking Yi about, can be the rallying point for other people, because they can understand this issue and throw their full support behind it.

It can become the issue around which people unite.

 

[sooo]

It can become the issue around which people unite.

Let me get to the last thing you said in a moment, because I think it's key to 63. Actually I think everything you said is relative to 63! And please let me be clear, I did not mean to say that 63 never refers to something already crossed or completed or won, but I do bring into question the necessity of it being in past tense only. I believe that is a perpetuated misunderstanding. I'm quite sure Brad disagrees with me there, and that's fine.

You raise a good point about the recirculation of things past, which come around again like the seasons. Every month I complete paying my due bills. Every month they come again .

But about being something around which people unite, I see as akin to Wilhelm 63.3, because all kinds of people will be expecting some private gain from that which has been completed, but not all are to be supported. 'It must not become an alms house for those lacking initiative to make their own way' (paraphrase of Wilhelm), nor a place for thieves who steal power and wealth. Maintaining order in a civilization, great or small, once that civilization's laws are written in stone (63), they need to be upheld, and occasionally amended. So it's never really finished. Is anything? Even things we thought we've put well behind us, they're still there, still requiring to be dealt with now and then.

Thanks on your compliment. I figure mint green goes with all the dark chocolate that gets eaten around here.

 

[bradford]

By the time the Zhouyi was written that battle was already slipping into legend, probably still intense only in the mythologizing and singing of songs. Easy, then to forget what a pain in the ass it was. Next time we'll remember? But it still explains that puzzling rule we added about not employing inferior people in the next effort.

 

[chingching]

warning: The following finds little support or agreement here. Consider at your own risk of ridicule and correction.

ridicule is my dao, so I have no problem agreeing with you... and that makes so much more sense in terms what I have been asking about when I cast 63.

 

[sooo]

ridicule is my dao, so I have no problem agreeing with you... and that makes so much more sense in terms what I have been asking about when I cast 63.

Thanks, Chingching. I think if people were to just pay particular attention the next few times they receive 63, and ask themselves, is this really finished, completed, won or crossed, or, rather have I committed mentally or physically to completing something, and is it too late to turn back now? they would find at least a good percent of the time, they have not finished crossing what their question is about. In fact, sometimes it's like saying 'stop making excuses, get off your butt and get it done!'

I seem to vaguely recall one of Hilary's blogs which asked and discussed this same question.

Anyway, nice to know I'm not the only for whom this makes sense.

 

[ginnie]

64 was the answer to the first yi reading i ever did.

Was it 64 unchanging? You needed to learn how to make finer distinctions before jumping into action?

 

[ginnie]

But about being something around which people unite, I see as akin to Wilhelm 63.3, because all kinds of people will be expecting some private gain from that which has been completed, but not all are to be supported. 'It must not become an alms house for those lacking initiative to make their own way' (paraphrase of Wilhelm), nor a place for thieves who steal power and wealth. Maintaining order in a civilization, great or small, once that civilization's laws are written in stone (63), they need to be upheld, and occasionally amended.

Thanks very much, sooo. Seeing your quote from Wilhelm was very helpful to me.

 

[chingching]

Was it 64 unchanging? You needed to learn how to make finer distinctions before jumping into action?

umm... yes and yes, it was about passing the driving test, which I still have not been able to pass...sigh...I have been on my learners licence for 15 years.... thats one year shy of half my life

 

[charly]

Was it 64 unchanging? You needed to learn how to make finer distinctions before jumping into action?

Hi, Ginnie:

I don't remember when or how I got H.64, but the fact that a FOX appears in it suggests that there is something hidden maybe not much reputable.

Even little foxes are astute animals looking for personal profit and not always honest (1). To address somebody as LITTLE FOX migh be like to say that he is not much dishonest, but I'm not sure.

Here the chinese received text:

未 wei4: not yet / did not / have not / not /
濟 ji4: to cross / to ferry / (2)
亨 heng1: feast / celebration / sacrifice /

小 xiao3: small / litle / young /
狐 hu2: fox /
汔 qi4: near /almost /
濟 ji4: to cross / to ferry /

濡 ru2: to wet / to moisten /
其 qi2: his / her / its / theirs / that / such / it /
尾 wei3: tail /

无 wu2: without / not / no / avoid /
攸 you1: distant / far / adverbial prefix /
利 li4: advantag / benefit / profit / profitable /

NOT YET CROSSING
Still at the begining.

LITTLE FOX NEAR CROSSING
Astute Little Guy being almost for crossisng...

WETS ITS TAIL
Wets its rear (3)
Doesn't discourage himself.

NO FAR PROFITABLE
Not very profitable... but a little.
Initial attitude is not all, but helps.
Even maybe a ritual gesture.

​

About the disjunctive of pass, present or even future, nothing is written, chinese verbs lack of time.


Little foxes make me remember the Bible and its vineyards, but that's another story.

From: http://sewing.craftgossip.com/free-pattern-pippa-and-rascal-fox-and-raccoon-softies/2011/06/28/

Yours,


Charly

______________________________
(1) Of course, almost like everybody.
(2) 濟 ji is a compound of the radical water 氵 and 齊 zi lower edge of a garnment, wetting the lower edge of a garnment [maybe a robe or a skirt]. Maybe a fecondity ritual?
(3) Wetting one's rear means to do the necessary, to do an effort, to pay the cost. Not to wrinkle, not to discourage oneself because the hardness of the project. To wet the tail also means to f_ck.
Ch.

 

[charly]

... they would find at least a good percent of the time, they have not finished crossing ...

... nice to know I'm not the only for whom this makes sense.

Hi, Bruce:

You're not alone. Our own lives begin much before ourselves be born, nothing in our lives will end until our last day. Our own lives are such things, said in the Changes, without begining but that will have end. Say, one end. Crossing the stream never ends, but the last time.

Episodes can begin and end, but episodes are not truth. From where you cut the stream of a live, here ends episode number x, here begins episode numbre x+1 is only magic of story telling.

Much sense in your words. Even more, you hve all the riht to translate in present, past, future or whatever verbal tense you wanted and have all the right to pass from one tense to another in different readings.

At least, I believe so.

all the best,

Charly

 

[water 0n earth]

There are 64 Gua, and Hexagram 63 is ready to finish or already finish, why put it at 63; then 64 is for not yet finish or not ready to finish...? I Ching is the book of changes, and the words "Same, but different" is the most important meaning in the Book Of Changes. Only 64 Gua but can be use for millions of things in life.

Let's ask our self this: If we think that Hexagram 63 is only for the past, then 6 billion people cast the Hexagram asking about the future, will never get 63 and vice versa for Hexagram 64???

I always told my students that, "a parrot speaks like us but don't understand our meaning. Do not study I Ching like a parrot".

 

[sooo]

By the time the Zhouyi was written that battle was already slipping into legend, probably still intense only in the mythologizing and singing of songs. Easy, then to forget what a pain in the ass it was. Next time we'll remember? But it still explains that puzzling rule we added about not employing inferior people in the next effort.

This is true, and it makes me laugh when I refer back to that 'guitar experiment', because, though I got some appliance guy to do the work, he did it like it was a freakin' refrigerator, rather than small and delicate electrical components in small space. It was a real Frankenstein inside when he was done, but since it worked, I just left the ridiculous overkill go unseen, until I traded it for another kind of guitar. For sure, as you said, I'd do it differently next time.

 

[chingching]

so in terms of already crossing what does 63 uc say?

 

[anemos]

so in terms of already crossing what does 63 uc say?

to me says "here we are! Now what?!?"
iow, "it ain't over till is over"

 

[chingching]

... and it could all turn to dust at any moment so keep going...?

 

[sooo]

so in terms of already crossing what does 63 uc say?

There are several bits of advice given for one who is already crossing or committed to crossing, most are precautionary - which in itself gives rise to the idea that this can be a present process rather than a past experience only. We are cautioned to take thought of misfortune and arm or prepare ourselves in advance. We prepare ourselves to cross successfully. That could relate to technical matters or matters pertaining to our state of mind. We must be prepared to deal with the details, not only to bask in the glory of our imagined blueprint (64). And we need to know when enough is enough, for now. Sometimes it's best to stop everything in the middle of wrestling with something, which has become exhausting or frustrating to complete, and just walk away or camp out there for the night. When returning to it, the solution often seems so simple, and you easily move on toward completion.

Water over fire - cooking something. Both Wilhelm and Bradford focus on the precarious nature of that arrangement. Have you ever absolutely ruined an otherwise fine meal by adding something near its completion, that you just wanted to try?

 

[anemos]

... and it could all turn to dust at any moment so keep going...?

yes. "The finest clothes turn to rags"

keep going could mean many things ,including wait ( 63.2)

 

[chingching]

Have you ever absolutely ruined an otherwise fine meal by adding something near its completion, that you just wanted to try?

most of the time I get busy doing something else, forgetting the meal I started cooking and my dinner burns in the pot.

 

[anemos]

was thinking "already across" as things we can't undo. This might be a way to read the 'past" tense of 63.(?) It reminds me a line from a movie "this is not a rehearsal , this is it !" so that "it" requires full attention and caution. Be there 100%.

I'm practicing sumi-e painting. Unlike other techniques I used to practice , here you just CAN'T undo ! Period !. there is no option to correct anything. You have to be on an certain state of mind, there is no other way to work and every time I ruin a piece is mostly when I lose this state of mind , mostly because I relax and *believe* its over , so I become careless. As a result, my painting goes straight to the pile of practice papers. sigh!

maybe H64 , in that example, is the preparation stage , the time I try to learn how to use the brush, how to make the right strokes etc and hex 63 is the time a take a sheet of paper and make the composition.

 

[anemos]

most of the time I get busy doing something else, forgetting the meal I started cooking and my dinner burns in the pot.

... and sometimes the pot too

 

[sooo]

Y'all probably already know the metaphor that Wilhelm uses, regarding the importance of applying the right amount of heat to a cooking pot.

When water in a kettle hangs over fire, the two elements stand in relation and thus generate energy (cf. the production of steam). But the resulting tension demands caution. If the water boils over, the fire is extinguished and its energy is lost. If the heat is too great, the water evaporates into the air (and burns the pot). These elements here brought in to relation and thus generating energy are by nature hostile to each other.

The use of contrary forces to produce energy, is a whole other aspect of 63 - didn't someone say synergy in this thread? Reversed in 64. The fox who is quite sure of himself, with his fiery tail waving victoriously, may at the very least get soaked. Fire above water: I can't yet see that. It must be coming, further down the road or river.

 

[sooo]

There is an image that a friend sent fairly recently, the sun or moon's reflection off the surface of calm waters. Very 64.

 

[rodaki]

hi people . . back from my sailing trip and here is the photo Bruce mentioned:

this was taken very early in the morning, in a calm, lake-like cove . . I like the idea of 64 for a day that is not yet across but just showing . . hadn't actually thought of it like that but it makes a lot of sense