63.3 and 64.4

[chingching]

Fire above water: I can't yet see that.

cooking an omlette under the grill?


...steam rising from the road on a burning hot day

 

[sooo]

chuckles, no... I meant 64: I can't yet see that.

 

[charly]

...
I always told my students that, "a parrot speaks like us but don't understand our meaning. Do not study I Ching like a parrot".

Hi, Water:

I agree with you, but may I give you an advice? Don´t underestimate parrots. They speak languages for their own use and for reasons that only they know.

If they study the Changes it ought to be from some oral tradition and with parrot masters.

Parrots are not too different from us from the point of view of motivation but, good for the human pride, they don´t read. I believe.

Yours,


Charly

P.D.
From Yellowbridge:
鹦鹉学舌 yīngwǔxuéshé: to parrot; to repeat uncritically what somebody says
Even the chinese have the same prejudice agaist parrots.
Ch.

 

[charly]

so in terms of already crossing what does 63 uc say?

Hi, Chingching:

Months ago Hilary posted a thread ALREADY CROSSING instead of already accross:

http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=12276

There I posted a temporary literal translation
(now revised, but still temporary)

既濟亨
ji4 ji4 heng1
ALREADY CROSSING FEAST (1)
Yet wet, SPLASH celebration.
Enjoy that now comes the good.


小利貞
xiao3 li4 zhen1
LITTLE PROFITABLE OMEN
Not previsible if the profit be great, but no matters.


初吉
chu1 ji2
[AT THE] BEGINING LUCKY
Lucky to begin.
If not now, when?

終亂
zhong1 luan4
[AT THE] END CRAZY (2)
We shall end CRAZY OF LOVE.
Maybe not too profitable, BUT JOYFUL.
Maybe the future is uncertain, enjoy now and here.
​

We only have the present and always we are yet in it.

Yours,


Charly

________________________
(1) I don't like SACRIFICE, I believe that FEAST or CELEBRATION have the double meaning of JOY and PERFORMING A RITUAL and less sense of SUFFERING.

(2) OF COURSE, THE CROSSING OF THE STREAM speaks of the old customs of peasant mariage, based on the free mating of the youngs not on the interested contract between noble families.

Ch.

 

[chingching]

I meant 64

whoops although i belive thinking about cooking omlettes has given me wisdom.

Thanks Charly, I like the thought of ending crazy in love, even if its just being in love with yourself, your own life. I actually have read that blog post but forgot all about it.

Although all the hexagrams contain rich images and concepts there is something bigger about 1, 2, 63 and 64.

 

[water 0n earth]

Hi, Water:

I agree with you, but may I give you an advice? Don´t underestimate parrots. They speak languages for their own use and for reasons that only they know.

If they study the Changes it ought to be from some oral tradition and with parrot masters.

Parrots are not too different from us from the point of view of motivation but, good for the human pride, they don´t read. I believe.

Yours,


Charly

P.D.
From Yellowbridge:
鹦鹉学舌 yīngwǔxuéshé: to parrot; to repeat uncritically what somebody says
Even the chinese have the same prejudice agaist parrots.
Ch.

Charly,

That is exactly what I meant. Study I Ching should not have any prejudice nor prejudgment. However, seem like you understand it in an opposite way.

Water 0n Earth

 

[charly]

Charly,

That is exactly what I meant. Study I Ching should not have any prejudice nor prejudgment. However, seem like you understand it in an opposite way.

Water 0n Earth

Of course, I agree with you. Only that I like parrots. And that prejudice always permeate in some degree our own sight. One of the things, I believe, that diviners need is to remain connected with their animal beings, if you prefer the «unconscious».

All the best,

Charly

P.D.:
Not the parrots that speak with little sense but ourselves.
Ch.

 

[sooo]

Not the parots that speak with little sense but ourselves.

:bows:

I wrote a pretty lengthy post before but didn't post it. You summed it up well in few words.

My parrots play a vital role in living with a sense of balance and order. But when they start telling me what to do, I get annoyed. Parrots, like good dogs, can become very spoiled. Give Mojo meat in his meals for a couple of days, he turns his nose up at his own dry food the next day. It once concerned me, until I inquired another Clarity native, whose household kept several German Shepards. She simply said "If he doesn't eat his food, he is not hungry. If you give him something he can't resist, of course he will eat it." That settled it for me, and to this day, that is what I (the parrot) tell myself, on those spoiled doggy days.

 

[charly]

The Secret Message

From: The Secret Message by Mina Javaherbin. Illustrated by Bruce Whatley. (2010).
At: http://marilyncarpenter.wordpress.com/page/2/

Based on an ancient poem by Rumi, the 13th century poet. about how FREEDOM is better than GOLDEN CAGES.

The Oriental Outpost brings some art and story about don't telling secrets to a parrot, but I didn't find the source.

From: Don't Tell Secrets to a Parrot. Chinese Story Art.
At: http://www.orientaloutpost.com/dont-tell-secrets-to-a-parrot-chinese-story-art.php

Charly

 

[sooo]

Don't Tell Secrets to a Parrot, that's funny wisdom!

 

[charly]

...
63.3 > 3
The high ancestor attacks the Demon Country.
Three years go round, and he overcomes it.
Don't use small people.

The implication seems to be that he might have saved himself the time and trouble and not bothered with this at all.

Maybe the implication is that the high ancestor could have done something better with those three years and all those resources?

I think hex 63 applies in general to activities that recur. That is, you finish it, whatever it is, and that was good. And then that work starts again. It's referring to something cyclical.
...

Hi, Ginnie:

I'm wondering what happened to you, your first post is very suggestive. I will post 63.3 as soon as possible.

all the best,

Charly

 

[ginnie]

... and it could all turn to dust at any moment so keep going...?

Chingching, I think you're giving too much importance to Hex 63.

When you receive 63.5, you can assume you've done the best job you could and no further efforts are needed. The episode has satisfactorily been brought to its conclusion.

Your hex 64 uc example of never having passed the driving test is interesting.

 

[ginnie]

there is something bigger about 1, 2, 63 and 64.

I've been thinking lately that the big ones are 1, 2, 11, and 12.

I regard 63 and 64 as doorways we walk through quickly and often when thinking about doing mundane things or activities in the world.

I have found that hex 63 uc is never THE answer, for example. Even if we do that thing, probably nothing will actually be changed or solved.

With hex 64 uc, the matter is up in the air and hanging up there indefinitely.

 

[chingching]

64 uc for my driving test, perpetually unable to cross. Never getting to the other side, the state of no licence seems unending or unable to be ended. I'm fine driving with people i know but as soon as an examiner steps into the vehicle I'm a nervous fox.

I like doorways... out of curiosity I asked what my dog was dreaming and got 13.4.6 > 63 ... already across the doorway to the fellowship of dogs in the open feild of ideas/forms. She was bouncing her hinds legs alot which is different for her dreaming time but I have been teaching her to jump high obstacles lately.

(i know you didnt literally mean doorway, my mind just got associating, ya know)

 

[ginnie]

63.3 > 3

'It must not become an alms house for those lacking initiative to make their own way' (paraphrase of Wilhelm), nor a place for thieves who steal power and wealth. Maintaining order in a civilization, great or small, once that civilization's laws are written in stone (63), they need to be upheld, and occasionally amended.

To follow up on this, Sooo ... Do you know the source of the concept of an amendment to a law that has already been written?

The W/B version of 63.3 emphasizes the urge people have to expand. There can be can be a place of exile thought to be good enough for individuals 'not fit to live at home.' Australia, for example, was once used as a place of exile, and so were the American colonies.

It is true that poverty-stricken people used to be imprisoned and/or sent into exile. However, W/B does not mention thieves or people who steal power. W/B does mentions the human tendency to expand. Colonial expansion was the example given.

However this can happen inside any household, any business, anywhere. Any family member, for example, can take over more than his or her share of the available space, and there can be endless fights over that. What does one do with unruly children or adults who misbehave, for example?

You might be trying to control the unruly ones, the Devils, by relegating them to a place of exile, but you can expect such an effort to fail. 'Such a policy ruins at the outset any chance of success.'

I was thinking of wives who put their husbands in the doghouse, to use an expression. Hopefully they will take their husbands out of the doghouse and not leave them there indefinitely!

I was also thinking that some parents say sternly to their misbehaving children: 'Go to your room.' Sometimes parents even say, "Go straight to your room with no dinner," which is even harsher. Sending children to their rooms is thought to be a good way to discipline them. However, other people feel that isolating their children this way is too harsh.

One way or the other, the basic idea of the line seems to be that you will end up exhausted if you try to keep misbehaving individuals in exile, because then you'll end up constantly fighting border wars to keep them contained that way.

But the idea of setting something under a rule and then perhaps arriving at a better arrangement later if necessary by an amendment to that rule -- well, that seems like a good solution here. And maybe that would not be so exhausting and long-drawn-out as the other solutions?

 

[sooo]

To follow up on this, Sooo ... Do you know the source of the concept of an amendment to a law that has already been written?

I've amended several of my own laws over this lifetime. Some of my earlier religious beliefs had become laws, and were later amended, as dictated by my conscience and updated reasoning. "Times change, and with them their demands" Wilhelm 61

However, W/B does not mention thieves or people who steal power. W/B does mentions the human tendency to expand. Colonial expansion was the example given.

Correct. That's why I didn't include that part in quotes. But I believe it is implied by the human nature of colonial expansion. Look at the California gold rush. Claim stakers, claim jumpers, big money comes in and takes over the prospector's means for earning a decent buck. It's the human nature of rapid expansion to bring out greed, and that's not just a human trait. Give a dog a fresh bone and he's happy. Give him two or three bones, and he can become possessive and defensive, especially if there are other dogs around (which are the devils and to whom?). They'll have to fend for themselves. But the bottom line is, now the first dog is no longer happy.

At the beginning good fortune.
At the end disorder.
Wilhelm 63

However this can happen inside any household, any business, anywhere. Any family member, for example, can take over more than his or her share of the available space, and there can be endless fights over that. What does one do with unruly children or adults who misbehave, for example?

Total agreement. It goes on in some households continuously. Oy!

What does one do? Who is one, and what does the time require for the most favorable outcome? If you mean the one in charge, they act responsibly in charge. If you mean one of the children, they act like a child, hopefully.

 

[charly]

Hi, Ginnie:

63.3 chinese received text:

高 gao1: high / tall /
宗 zong1: ancestor / school / sect / purpose / model /
伐 fa1: to attack / dispatch an expedition against /
鬼 gui3: ghost / demon // tricky / deceitful //clever / artful // barbarian /
方 fang1: unsubjugated lands or people //square / direction / side // method / recipe // upright // just / then // to disobey // to criticize / to compare odiously /

三 san1: three / 3 /
年 nian2: year /
克 ke4: subdue / to restrain / to overcome / to repress /
之 zhi1: him / her / it /...'s /

小 xiao3: little /small / few /
人 ren2: man / person / people /
勿 wu4: do not /
用 yong4: to use / apply // to sacrifice /(1)

It's said that the HIGH ANCESTOR and the GUI FANG were respectively a Shang King and a barbarian tribe from the periphery of the kingdom, that were always causing trouble to the Shangs, the Zhous and even, maybe, the Hans. (2)

If you believe in history inside the Changes, the Shang king had not quite totally defeated them. But if you believe that the Changes is not a book of historic records, the words are so polysemic that allow multiple and even contradictory translations.

One of it:

HIGH ANCESTOR ATTACKED GHOSTLY REBELS.
The king led an expedition against the cunning bandits.

THREE YEARS RESTRAINING THEM.
Three years was warring,
for keeping them far from country suburbs.

LITLE PEOPLE DO NOT SACRIFICE.
Don't inflict suffering to common people.
Don't use prisoners for sacrifying.


There are much more.

Yours,


Charly

___________________________
(1) For 用 yong4, Schuessler brings:
To to use / to obey (a decree) / to use /'use' for a sacrificial ceremony /to sacrifice / 'the use or enjoyment of something' /
Source:
Axel Schuessler : ABC EtYDlological Dictionary of Old Chinese
University of Hawaii Press, Honolulu.

(2) Sima Qian said that they were the nomads later known as Xiong Nu, say, the Huns, but it's no sure.
Ch.

 

[ginnie]

Polysemic Words

Charly's idea of ending the war to spare the common people/citizenry/soldiers fits together very nicely with sooo's idea of amending those intractable laws ...

 

[ginnie]

63.3.5 > 24

Just got the combination 63.3.5 > 24, about asking someone to help me with something.

Maybe I can translate it like this now, solely due to the tremendous help given on this thread:

"Your expedition to create a certain degree of order took a long time, and it was successful. There is no need now to involve more people, especially since the people you are thinking of bringing in are completely inexperienced with the matter at hand."

(I had not looked at it like that.)

"Furthermore, at this point, make the least possible sacrifice. Take a break and rest."

Thank you, I Ching.

This is a question in my mind. Which is better: (1) to have inexperienced and even foolish helpers? Or (2) to have no helpers at all?

I think the I Ching's philosophy is to try to keep the helpers one already has and to scale down one's ambitions to fit what can actually be accomplished.

Often one has no really good helpers and therefore cannot accomplish very much.

 

[sooo]

Hi Ginnie,

I'm not sure IC has a philosophy, or at least one that we can narrow down to a philosophy independent of our own nature, aptitude, and personality. It seems to me more of a boat-floater and propeller than a boat. We are the boat. It rides upon and across waves of our mind and heart, so it is above our troubles and dilemmas. Not a warm, easy or nice oracle, and I swear, sometimes it turns to ice.

I've made past associations of 63 to define it as representing an "expert", someone who is already accomplished, a professional, a graduate of whatever I'm trying to achieve. I don't know how accurate I was, or if Yi was just having sport with me, but it seems logical enough to sometimes apply.

 

[chingching]

There is no need now to involve more people, especially since the people you are thinking of bringing in are completely inexperienced with the matter at hand."

sure, but doesnt that omit the meaning of 24? (talking about underlined bit only). Maybe not the current person you are thinking of but friends come...

from a quick glance that reading looks like "why did the chicken cross the road?" (to get to the other side).

I just looked this up too because I remember finding that joke funny but forgot why, and I found this variation in wikipedia:

Why should not a chicken cross the road?
It would be a fowl proceeding.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Why_did_the_chicken_cross_the_road%3F

 

[chingching]

I feel like the cheese standing alone on this thread.

Interesting entry by Lise on 63.3
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showpost.php?p=95605&postcount=18
and this whole thread
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?t=8461

63 and 64 are the hexagrams I read up on the most. I tend to have a fatalistic view about them, by default... but , yeah, everything I read in here is much broader (relief!)

 

[ginnie]

I've made past associations of 63 to define it as representing an "expert", someone who is already accomplished, a professional, a graduate of whatever I'm trying to achieve.

Thomas Cleary says that, too. Regarding 63 in general, Cleary writes: "In a settled time the great are already successful, but the small are still yet to succeed."

Ordinarily one cannot get anywhere employing "small people," because almost everybody gets worn out dealing with people whose thinking is chaotic.

Teachers usually have great patience with "the little," but even they get worn out.

I think Yi has pointed me this way, then that way, walking me through and illuminating my illusions about myself and other people.

"Philosophy" was the wrong word. We bring own philosophies to Yi, because philosophy books do not respond to our questions as Yi does!

Whenever I think Yi has turned to ice, anything like that, I pick up a different translation and read that one for a while instead. What is above is invariably gentle but doesn't always come across that way in translation!

 

[bradford]

Hi Ginnie,
I'm not sure IC has a philosophy, or at least one that we can narrow down to a philosophy independent of our own nature, aptitude, and personality.

Hi Sooo
I've often noted that the Yi is more of a psychology than a philosophy. And an ethic, even the original Zhouyi, not just the Da Xiang. How to live a better life.
For me it's often all summed up in the short and oft-repeated phrase "You Fu", which the silly people translate "there will be a capture'. I think the both the core and the literal meaning is simply "Be True". Significantly, the Yi never says what true is, and especially not Truth. Deep down we know what True is. We just tend to be liars is all, and we just ought to stop doing that.

 

[ginnie]

from a quick glance that reading looks like "why did the chicken cross the road?" (to get to the other side).

Yes, still trying to get this one.

It could mean:

Criticizing those tricky devils.

In other words, gossiping, perhaps?

Wasting time and energy by focusing on what's wrong with other people?

An admonition that if we do that, we'll only wear ourselves out ... ?

 

[anemos]

maybe by asking the question " if it is not That , then what else could be IT ?"

 

[anemos]

Hi Sooo
I've often noted that the Yi is more of a psychology than a philosophy. And an ethic, even the original Zhouyi, not just the Da Xiang. How to live a better life.
For me it's often all summed up in the short and oft-repeated phrase "You Fu", which the silly people translate "there will be a capture'. I think the both the core and the literal meaning is simply "Be True". Significantly, the Yi never says what true is, and especially not Truth. Deep down we know what True is. We just tend to be liars is all, and we just ought to stop doing that.

Which truth is true ? a question with a difficult answer , if there is an objective answer.

 

[bradford]

Which truth is true ? a question with a difficult answer , if there is an objective answer.

In carpentry and in archery "True" is used as a verb- true a wall, true your aim. In the same sense, you can true your life, and if that has to be to a standard it can only be your own little corner of the Dao, which I regard as relativistic and situational, which in turn is what the Yi speaks to.

 

[anemos]

I wasn't aware of that meaning of the word "true" . Very interesting ! Given the situation we are truing our life. There is no sense of good/bad just how aligned we are with what times ask.

You said "We just tend to be liars is all, and we just ought to stop doing that." And I believe you are correct. I recall I had a reading which at the first glance was pretty literal but when I asked the question i mentioned before something else surfaced and made me realize that I was lying, denying a part of that situation. I can't recall whether there was something in the lines i got that made me doubt for my initial interpretation or that feeling that something is not yet.

Maybe its a cheesy question, but how much or not in your experience , or from your observations, Yi assists one to the process of "stop lying". during that truing process does it intervene ?

To my experience , i haven't felt any intervention. i'm just given an image of the situation. i get usually a "this is what it is" so, it seems that its contribution stops there and its on our hands how far we intend or be able to go. Is it what really is ?

 

[bradford]

You said "We just tend to be liars is all, and we just ought to stop doing that." And I believe you are correct. I recall I had a reading which at the first glance was pretty literal but when I asked the question i mentioned before something else surfaced and made me realize that I was lying, denying a part of that situation.

Daniel Goleman (Emotional Intelligence) wrote an interesting book called Vital Lies, Simple Truths: The Psychology of Self-deception that does a great job of charting the dimensions of the problem. There are degrees to which lies and denial serve us, but we let it go too far. For my own part I spent more than a decade locked in the grip of an alcohol habit, and got some good insights on just how potent Denial is.

Maybe its a cheesy question, but how much or not in your experience , or from your observations, Yi assists one to the process of "stop lying". during that truing process does it intervene ?
To my experience , i haven't felt any intervention. i'm just given an image of the situation. i get usually a "this is what it is" so, it seems that its contribution stops there and its on our hands how far we intend or be able to go. Is it what really is ?

For me the texts aren't predictions but the illustrations of a choice to be made. Much of the time, though, one of the choices is only implied. Shedding more light on the options we have is often the only guidance we really need.