Clarity,
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It's not that I don't see your point at all, but I think it's important to ground the answer in the question. Otherwise we'd be all over the place trying to interpret it, more than we already are a lot. This is unlikely to be helpful.It is really a misconception that the Yi as a kind of robot only answers the question or a question formulated in a certain way.
The Yi does not answer questions, but gives a representation of a situation and everything related to that situation. The question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi, so that there is a framework within which the answer can be interpreted.
The Yi's answer is a multi-layered one.
So in this case, the Yi was not just answering the question of how to tell him how she feels, but everything related to that situation.
Maybe re-read my reply carefully.For instance, if we ask Yi for insight, what's going on, it's important at least to start out assuming that's what Yi gives us. If we ask for insight but then figure what we got is advice, what to do, we might end up doing the wrong thing, all because we asked Yi one thing but then ignored it. We'd be working at cross-purposes, passing like ships in the night.
The Yi gives a multi-layered answer, much like a diamond with many facets, Most who consult the Yi only look at 1 facet and forget that there are 99 other facets.The question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi, so that there is a framework within which the answer can be interpreted.
No it isn't. Just because you see it in such a narrow way doesn't mean that it is true.Yi is much more limited.
Although I respect Hilary in her knowledge about and work with the Yi, this is blatant nonsense.But Hilary makes the point that before you assume that, you should make very sure the reading couldn't possibly have answered what you actually asked. She says in her experience Yi normally respects a person's question and answers it. That's why it's important to try to be as clear as possible what you're asking, and ask in an oracle-friendly way.
I agree with that, too.The question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi, so that there is a framework within which the answer can be interpreted.
Argh, ugh, thank you.This is copied from the duplicate thread deleted
I think I said that:No it isn't blatant nonsense, questions certainly matter as without those we do not know what is being answered at all!
The nonsense is aboutThe question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi, so that there is a framework within which the answer can be interpreted.
Harmen Mesker has made a funny video to debunk a lot of nonsense that exists in the West about the Yi.But Hilary makes the point that before you assume that, you should make very sure the reading couldn't possibly have answered what you actually asked. She says in her experience Yi normally respects a person's question and answers it. That's why it's important to try to be as clear as possible what you're asking, and ask in an oracle-friendly way.
I agree with what you said in your post (the whole thing), but I'm not sure Hilary does always just mean entirely different question.But in the instance you are referring to it's not about Yi answering an entirely different question at all but the answer being bigger than the question, the answer containing more than was specifically asked. Yi does that all the time and that is, to repeat, not the same thing that Hilary was talking about above.
I use WWG on a daily basis (and no not taught by Harmen Mesker). How can you say it is blatant nonsense if you don't know what it is or does? A beginner's attitude would suit you better.Yet he teaches weng wang gu doesn't he which certainly is 'blatant nonsense' the term you applied to Hilary's ideas. Weng wang gua may not be western, I don't know but it looks to be the biggest piece of fortune cookie nonsense I ever did see.
We might be talking at cross purposes.She did as otherwise she'd have been saying 'only ever apply your answer to the exact specific question asked' and I can't imagine she'd commit to something so limiting.
That's an entirely different question yes. In the thread you linked to entirely different questions are not answered I don't think but the perimeters of the answers are wider than the question. IOW it tells you more than what you asked for. That is not the same thing at all as thinking Yi is answering another question.
- not what I meant. (Hilary suggests not doing this, either, though - it's just not what I mean in this thread or what I thought Hans was talking about.) (Added - Yi can change the subject, of course. I'm just saying don't think that too fast.)asking about my family, but then thinking the answer's about my job
Agreed. But you might have to distinguish between how Yi might have answered your question, and then what else it might be saying, and keep those straight. Sometimes this will be easy, sometimes it'll be subconscious or intuitive - that's perfectly fine. Sometimes it'll need a little bit more conscious distinction, I think.the perimeters of the answers are wider than the question. IOW it tells you more than what you asked for
This sentence makes me very happy, just in general.Although I respect Hilary in her knowledge about and work with the Yi, this is blatant nonsense.
In your example how different are they really? I think they add up to the same thing anyway and one can always ask more questions to clarify. I tend to go for 3 questions around an issue as if circling it from all sides (yet leaving a path open in front as in 8.5)
I don't worry much about my questions at all but that might be because I am not very often asking for specific advice as such I'm much more interested in 'circling' the question as above and that escape path is important to give Yi room to speak.
If you are often wanting very specific directions on practical things then you are going to worry much more about the question I guess.
That's a very good example, and thank you for coming along with it.Someone come up with a better example...
Like this:How can you say it is blatant nonsense....
This is funny because, some of the wwg crowd who have come here over the years fit that description perfectly.What an incredibly arrogant attitude.
If, as Hans says, 'the question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi', then the answer is completely grounded in the question, exactly where it needs to be grounded - in the mind of the questioner.It's not that I don't see your point at all, but I think it's important to ground the answer in the question. Otherwise we'd be all over the place trying to interpret it, more than we already are a lot. This is unlikely to be helpful.It is really a misconception that the Yi as a kind of robot only answers the question or a question formulated in a certain way.
The Yi does not answer questions, but gives a representation of a situation and everything related to that situation. The question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi, so that there is a framework within which the answer can be interpreted.
The Yi's answer is a multi-layered one.
So in this case, the Yi was not just answering the question of how to tell him how she feels, but everything related to that situation.
the distinction between 'What's happening?' or even 'What am I doing?' and 'What would be best to do?' - description vs advice - is an important one.
My reaction wasThe I Ching was only answering the question should you tell him how you feel about him sometime in the near future?
The question is not meant for the Yi but only for the person consulting the Yi, so that there is a framework within which the answer can be interpreted.
The Yi's answer is a multi-layered one.
So in this case, the Yi was not just answering the question of how to tell him how she feels, but everything related to that situation.
Good, we agree on that...So I am not saying that a question is unimportant, it is in fact the framework within which an answer can be interpreted.
...and on that, except I think I'd say something like the question's a mutual understanding between querent and oracle. If I ask from a certain angle - advice for a conversation, say - I trust I can interpret the answer from that angle. (Maybe unless there's something unusual going on, like the conversation will never take place for some reason.)What I do say is that the Yi's answer contains more "information" than just an answer to the question. The reason there is more "information" is because the Yi does not need the question but gives an answer that resonates with the whole situation.
The closest I get to this are weekly readings, where I still ask a question, but an open one like "Guidance for this week?" or "What should I be aware of this week?" They've been really helpful.Perhaps interesting to try for yourself: Create a hexagram the way you are used to without asking a question.
Do you feel like you're in many situations at once, though? Work situations, home situations, health situations, the-washer-is-making-funny-noises situations (whatnot). Is it easy to recognize what Yi's addressing?And interpret the answer from the situation in your life you are in at that moment.
No, what I mean by that is the general state/'vibe' of that moment, how you feel with everything going on at that moment.Do you feel like you're in many situations at once, though?
There is also the option that both are 'not lasting in their character'. It takes two to tango or as in this case argue.Another example, probably pertinent to what MyKey was saying...
X and Y are in dispute. X feels Y has taken the easy way out and let her down badly; Y feels exactly the same about X.
X consults the oracle, and since she's an experienced user she finds no need to give much time or thought to her question. She just jots down 'argument with Y' and casts. She receives 32.3 -
'Not lasting in your character,
Maybe accepting a shameful gift.
Constancy: shame'
...and she is experienced enough to know that the 'your' is just an artefact of translation; she can perfectly well read it as 'not lasting in his character.'
What will she make of this? That doesn't depend on her depth of understanding of the oracle; it depends on how honest she can be with herself. If she had thought to direct the question, to ask either 'How am I doing in this argument with Y?' or 'What should I make of Y's position?' she'd know where she was - however uncomfortable.
Clarity of mind can be greatly assisted by ensuring that there is clarity of intent, set before the divination. Intent acts like a snowplough forging a freeing pathway through deeply fallen snow,In other words... to be sure you don't need to pay attention to what you're asking, you need not only great experience with the Yi, but also extraordinary clarity of mind and freedom from bias. Enough, I should think, that you'd rarely need to consult in the first place.
I agree. Without surprise then all that remains is a complacent comfort zone. When there is trouble at t'mill then there is always a need to be open to surprise. Nobody expects surprise!Another way to put this: an ordinary human consulting the oracle needs to be able to be surprised by it from time to time. Sometimes it will say things we don't like and/or couldn't have imagined. The more leeway we leave ourselves to decide how to apply the answer - 'plainly that line is about Y, that's just what I always said about him' - the less possibility there is for us to be surprised.
Hi LiselleDo you feel like you're in many situations at once, though? Work situations, home situations, health situations, the-washer-is-making-funny-noises situations (whatnot). Is it easy to recognize what Yi's addressing?
My weekly ones are a mix - some are umbrella-ish, like chapters in a book of life lessons ("concentrate on this one now"), others are about actual events.
Yup. It would still make for a stronger reading, one with more of an impact, if she knew in advance what she was asking about.There is also the option that both are 'not lasting in their character'.
Also yup. I spend a lot of time encouraging people to find their intent for a reading - some sense of what you would like to change as a result of the reading. It can be anything from calming one's inner state of hope/fear to deciding whether to call a plumber.Clarity of mind can be greatly assisted by ensuring that there is clarity of intent, set before the divination. Intent acts like a snowplough forging a freeing pathway through deeply fallen snow,
And/or it can be a result of pausing to think about the question and the intent behind it. From time to time I have talked to someone for half an hour or so about their situation and question, and they've realised they already knew the answer, or they'd moved on from the question. I've also spent time trying to dissuade people from consulting at all when what they are seeking is the peace of mind that they feel would come from absolute certainty about the future - something that's not on offer from any amount of relationship with Yi.I think that you are right too, Hilary, that over time matters at one level of consciousness that once needed a cast to enable understanding are more clearly understood. This is because of the greater clarity coming from enhanced self awareness that grows with concerted relationship with Yi.
Yup. Pre-casting practice is really the crux of the matter with regards to a successful divination understanding. Rubbish in rubbish out!And/or it can be a result of pausing to think about the question and the intent behind it. From time to time I have talked to someone for half an hour or so about their situation and question, and they've realised they already knew the answer, or they'd moved on from the question. I've also spent time trying to dissuade people from consulting at all when what they are seeking is the peace of mind that they feel would come from absolute certainty about the future - something that's not on offer from any amount of relationship with Yi.
I think it's much more interesting to live not knowing than to have answers which might be wrong. I have approximate answers and possible beliefs and different degrees of uncertainty about different things, but I am not absolutely sure of anything and there are many things I don't know anything about, such as whether it means anything to ask why we're here. I don't have to know an answer. I don't feel frightened not knowing things, by being lost in a mysterious universe without any purpose, which is the way it really is as far as I can tell. ~Richard P. Feynman
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).