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I did not say this - it is a quote from you. Dont you read what you write?! you wrote that in reply to something I said, and then repeated it when capturing the quote - I then responded by writing you were being silly etc. Please Harmen, if you want to discuss things then dont put your words into my mouth and then wander off into some diatribe about what I said!!hmesker said:You are (deliberately?) taking my remark out of its original context. You said
And that's a prejudice.
No. The correlation is done by cognitive analysis - the meanings generated regardless of the names. Following on from the analysis, in my own interpretations of the IC I include (a) Wilhelm's names (b) my gerund form of translation (c) the Eranos set of associations. The FACT that the traditional interpretations 'fit' with the qualities derived from brain dynamics shows the origins of the traditional interpretations in a brain, not from 'outside' of that brain.hmesker said:But when you correlate these qualities with the trigrams you do so by their traditional accepted names and meanings, as found in the Ten Wings.
it does ;-) The generic qualities of the hexagrams hold. LOCAL context will add variations, elements of 'unique' perspectives but the focus is on the universals that seed those variations.hmesker said:The same goes for the hexagrams and their names. Your material, however, would to a certain extent not fit the Mawangdui Yijing,
You seem to miss the dynamics of evolution where what is the 'best fit' is what survives the longest. The variations on the IC you offer are just that, variations, LOCAL differences. The success of the IC is based on resonance in understanding since it 'fits' easily with our brain dynamics. LOCAL variations will exist, there are MANY orders that reflect Logics of Relationships in the IC (the examples given in http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html )hmesker said:or the Chujian Yijing, because they apply different names with likely different meanings. Yet these are also Yijings.
no. ANY replacement would be in representations/words and so expressions, what is being EXPRESSED will be constant. Blending, Bonding, Bounding, Binding. Hard-coded into our brains; ONE set of generic qualities, MANY sets of labels.hmesker said:Everywhere on your site you apply the traditional, accepted meanings of the hexagrams as known from the received Yijing. If the received version were replaced by another version, you would have a problem. Those who use the Yi as an oracle would not have that problem.
No. The basic associations exist a feelings hard-coded into your brain. THEN comes the LOCAL CONTEXT associations, often done in an ad hoc manner since the 'ancients' did not have access to the 'full picture' that we do re category formation and use by the neurology.hmesker said:The fact that it is not covered in the traditional material does not mean that the ancient Chinese 'missed' it. Every manuscript is a reflection of its time. The basic associations of the trigrams (which you apply so abundantly on your site) are derived from the Ten Wings.
The foundation is in our species, not in the ancient chinese. THEIR perspective is the application of universals to a LOCAL CONTEXT and so will take-on a local 'colouring'. Your focus is, as such, limiting, in that you are trying to detect the foundations of something in a local context when those foundations are in fact in a universal context - our neurology that seeds our meanings, our expressions.hmesker said:Only about 1000 years later this was expanded to long lists of categorized associations which we still use today. This does not mean that these later associations were 'missed' by the writers of the Ten Wings. There just was no need and/or use for it at that time.
Everybody can expand on the material of the Yi. But every expansion is most likely an expansion of the traditional Yi with its traditional associations from a subjective point of view. Without this foundation you have nothing to build on. Therefore I think we should first study this foundation, instead of making up fancy theories.
(1) it is tracing the history of expressions - words stand for something, as do hexagrams, they BOTH are indicators of feelings that are 'meaningful'.jesed said:Now, this is a total nonsense (maybe I should say a "Nonsense Plus"?)
Etymology is not about qualities of a six-line figure; but about words.
I agree that a six-line form represent some ratio, as well as words and numbers.lightofreason said:there is a core focus on MEANING and hexagrams serve the same purpose as words as do numbers - they represent some ratio, some relationship of some form.
no. a word is a word. You can represent what IT represents in pictures etc - the word is a representation of meaning and we translate that meaning into any sense form where some will work well, others wont. I think there is confusion here of associating map with territory and/or precision issues.jesed said:Cris
1.- Words can be expresed in several diferent way: oraly, picturely, abstractly. In every of this cases, they remain words.
jesed said:Maybe I don't understand you well, maybe your quote is out of context, but ...are you saying that etymology is a "pseudospiritual dream"?... wow
I feel sorry for those people devoted to linguistics and etymology, they use to think that etymology is some kind of Science. Poor guys.
And, since you are asking Togan to leave this forum to go into others, because he doesn't agree with your idea about not stay with the etimological discussion but go into more general meaning discussion, this mean that you are becoming the local guru around here?
Significant differences between your interpretations and those of the ancients can also indicate that your theory of 'neurological determination' has shortcomings and needs revision.lightofreason said:Wilhelm or Eranos or Legge or even chinese translations do not cover issues of 02 as total darkness or the positive aspects of 47 etc etc They does not cover the neurologically-determined forms of interpretations of cooperative/competitive forms - and so 02 is (a) total negation, total darkess as it is (b) a womb.
So, are you saying that "1" is a word, like "ONE"?... I cann't go further in that case, is uselesslightofreason said:no. a word is a word.... the word is a representation of meaning ...The word 'ONE' is a representation, as is '1'
If I say: "you will receive the letter in a X or Y day" (Zeldicac case), the fact that he recieved or not doesn't depend on her feelings neither in my feelings (she wouldn't say I feel like I'm receiving the letter), she actually recieved the letter, taht is a fact; the day when she received is a X or a Y day or not, that doesn't depends on her feelings (I feel like today is a Tiger day).lightofreason said:As for calendars etc in the IC, the hexagrams are used to represent distinctions of past/present/future and the number of lines can be used to reflect a lunar year etc but all of this is dependent on feelings
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