An Experiment with GPT4

[remod]

Update: I've added also the "Image" text so that the reading now considers

• The primary hexagram judgment
• The primary hexagram image
• The changing lines
• The secondary hexagram

I've instructed Yishi (易士) that the secondary hexagram provides a broader or alternative perspective to the issue at hand.

I've made some checks by generating readings for questions posed here in the "Shared readings" section of the forums and on reddit.

It seems to me that it picks up more or less the same aspects rised by the other readings but I would love to make some direct test by any of you posing a (more or less) real question and tell me if the reading is close to what you would have considered or if it is way off mark.

Another test, if anyone has a translation that would like to see used and could provide the text in this format:

Hexagram: 52 "Ken (Keeping Still, Mountain)"
Judgment: "Keeping Still, Mountain. Keeping his back still So that he no longer feels his body. He goes into his courtyard And does not see his people. No blame."
Line 52.1: "Keeping his toes still. No blame. Continued perseverance furthers."
Line 52.2: "Keeping his calves still. He cannot rescue him whom he follows. His heart is not glad."
Line 52.3: "Keeping his hips still. Making his lower back stiff. Dangerous. The heart suffocates."
Line 52.4: "Keeping his trunk still. No blame."
Line 52.5: "Keeping his jaws still. The words have order. Remorse disappears."
Line 52.6: "Noblehearted keeping still. Good fortune."
Image 52: "Mountain resting on its base: the image of Keeping Still. Thus the superior man does not permit his thoughts to go beyond his situation."

I can easily swap it. I plan to convert the Bradford Hatcher one, but I don't know when I'll have the time to convert the pdf and extract the relevant info.

 

[my_key]

Bradford's text appears in the 'Resonance Journal', along with that of LiSe and Hilary. I have no idea about copyright matters, however it might be worth contacting Hilary to see if the format used for the 'Resonance Journal' is in a format that will be more readily usable for you.

 

[Sparhawk]

Bradford's text is free to distribute under CC attribution:

CC BY 4.0​

Attribution 4.0 International​

This license requires that reusers give credit to the creator. It allows reusers to distribute, remix, adapt, and build upon the material in any medium or format, even for commercial purposes.

• • 
    BY: Credit must be given to you, the creator.

 

[remod]

Yes, I believe this has been done to preserve his work by disseminating it as much as possible. And I believe is a good thing.
I didn't have much opportunities to interact with him but it's so sad to know he's no longer with us.

BTW, I'm massaging the PDF to extract the text, I'll let you know when I'll be able to use it with GPT4.

 

[my_key]

BTW, I'm massaging the PDF to extract the text, I'll let you know when I'll be able to use it with GPT4.

A little bit more of a technical computer code massage, I take it, rather than 400 ish individual copy and pastes.

 

[remod]

A little bit more of a technical computer code massage, I take it, rather than 400 ish individual copy and pastes.

Quite so I've done it. See next post for comparison

 

[remod]

I took as an example a question from Reddit (I wanted to check if the response was more or less in line with the comments written there) and here is the readings I got with the two translations. I'll report just the summaries here for a quick comparison, look at the full reading to see the different translations in action.

Question: I wanted to go to other places but right now I am just recovering financially and I am also worried about my family if I leave them. What can I do to be able to travel/study abroad?
Answer: 42.5

Yishi (based on Whilelm translation): Full reading
Summary:
Your desire to travel and study abroad is timely and aligned with a phase of growth (Hexagram 42). It's important to act on these aspirations while being considerate and kind towards your family (42.5). Self-reflection and sincerity in your intentions will be crucial. You are encouraged to persevere in your efforts, as this will lead to success and good fortune, especially in endeavors that take you across great distances (Hexagram 27). Remember, kindness and a genuine heart, along with self-awareness and sincerity, are your guiding principles in this journey.

Yinxing (based on Hatcher's translation): Full reading
Summary:
Your reading, combining hexagrams 42 and 27, with the changing line 42.5, advises you to embrace opportunities for growth and change with sincerity and kindness. It suggests that your current focus on financial recovery and family concerns is part of a journey towards personal growth and nourishment. The advice is to persist in your endeavors, as this will lead you to the fulfillment of your aspirations to travel or study abroad. Trust in the value of opportunities that come your way and approach them with a true and kind heart, as this attitude will guide you to make the most of them.

 

[Sparhawk]

If I may, I would suggest you get a copy of Legge's translation. It isn't as bad as many would like to appraise and it is in the public domain, unlike Wilhelm's.

 

[Trojina]

I took as an example a question from Reddit (I wanted to check if the response was more or less in line with the comments written there) and here is the readings I got with the two translations. I'll report just the summaries here for a quick comparison, look at the full reading to see the different translations in action.

Question: I wanted to go to other places but right now I am just recovering financially and I am also worried about my family if I leave them. What can I do to be able to travel/study abroad?
Answer: 42.5

Yishi (Whilelm): Full reading

I took as an example a question from Reddit (I wanted to check if the response was more or less in line with the comments written there) and here is the readings I got with the two translations. I'll report just the summaries here for a quick comparison, look at the full reading to see the different translations in action.

Question: I wanted to go to other places but right now I am just recovering financially and I am also worried about my family if I leave them. What can I do to be able to travel/study abroad?
Answer: 42.5

Yishi (Whilelm): Full reading

I'm going to sound dim, I don't mind, but what is this ? Neither commentaries you've quoted seem to have any connection to the commentaries of the authors. Did you feed them into AI and it mashed their commentaries up to this ? If so then it just made a sort of rather bland smoothie coverall of an answer IMO.
What connection has that commentary got to Bradford, he didn't write like this....

Your reading, combining hexagrams 42 and 27, with the changing line 42.5, advises you to embrace opportunities for growth and change with sincerity and kindness. It suggests that your current focus on financial recovery and family concerns is part of a journey towards personal growth and nourishment. The advice is to persist in your endeavors, as this will lead you to the fulfillment of your aspirations to travel or study abroad. Trust in the value of opportunities that come your way and approach them with a true and kind heart, as this attitude will guide you to make the most of them.

....so I'm wondering why you've put this under his name and it's not to his credit that it's under his name because he didn't write such bland coverall stuff, his writing was far more spicy. Have I missed something crucial? What I'm seeing is Bradford's name over something I don't think Bradford would ever have written and I don't get it ? Bradford's work is so unique and individual to him, his little stories for commentaries on each line, it's very recognisable.

 

[remod]

If I may, I would suggest you get a copy of Legge's translation. It isn't as bad as many would like to appraise and it is in the public domain, unlike Wilhelm's.

Thanks, Sparhawk, but I don't like the translation from Legge much. It's not that I've studied it much but every time I looked at it, it does not resonate with me (contrary to the Hatcher translation or the Takashima Ekidan, which I liked).

Do you know of any other PD or CC translations? If I'll ever go public, I won't use the Wilhelm translation for sure.

But the more I think about it, the more I doubt I'll make it generally available. Wether by using OpenAI GPT or some free LLM, it will cost money to generate this readings and I'm not doing this form money

 

[remod]

I'm going to sound dim but I don't mind but what is this ? Neither commentaries you've quoted seem to have any connection to the commentaries of the authors. Did you feed them into AI and it mashed their commentaries up to this ? If so then it just made a sort of rather bland smoothie coverall of an answer IMO.
What connection has that commentary got to Bradford, he didn't write like this....

Hi @Trojina, i'm not generating commentaries, the experiment is to generate reading by interpreting the hexagrams text. I never said that those where Bradford's or Wilhelm's commentaries, but that the interpretaion was done using their translation. I gave no indication to the AI that the generated text should mimic any style or particular author.

I hoped I made it clear in the first message:

Prompted by a post on Reddit, I explored the possibility of making a GPT able to produce plausible I Ching readings in response to a question. I created a custom GPT that generates hexagrams with the three-coins probability (you know how much I care about knowing the probability distribution of each method) and uses the Wilhelm translation as the basis for the interpretation.

since then, I've also made one based on the Hatcher translation.

Let me change the message to avoid misunderstandings.

 

[Trojina]

Hi @Trojina, i'm not generating commentaries, the experiment is to generate reading by interpreting the hexagrams text. I never said that those where Bradford's or Wilhelm's commentaries, but that the interpretaion was done using their translation.

Yes, I used the word 'commentary' for the readings I guess because they came across as more like commentaries being generic, not tailored to an individual human situation. And you are only using their translations not their commentaries to generate these ? Hmm. I guess seeing Brad's name by that reading just struck me as so not Brad I'd wonder why his name was there at all. Well I know you are crediting using his translation but seeing the reading and his name by it just, well, it really isn't Brad like IMO but I guess it wasn't meant to be.

 

[remod]

And you are only using their translations not their commentaries to generate these ? Hmm. I guess seeing Brad's name by that reading just struck me as so not Brad I'd wonder why his name was there at all.

Yes, the base for the generated text is their translation of the judgment, the image, and the changing lines, nothing else.

Yes, I used the word 'commentary' for the readings I guess because they came across as more like commentaries being generic, not tailored to an individual human situation.

That's interesting. The question was about moving abroad and the summary started with;

Your desire to travel and study abroad is timely and aligned with a phase of growth (Hexagram 42). It's important to act on these aspirations while being considerate and kind towards your family (42.5).

why do you see this not related to an individual situation? What kind of reference to the original question would you have considered more related to the question itself? Or, maybe, do you feel that interpretation of 42.5 with respect to the question is incorrect (miss the point, focus on the wrong part of the text, ...)?

I'm exactly interested in understanding where the AI fails in this respect.

 

[Trojina]

I'm exactly interested in understanding where the AI fails in this respect.

Well it fails in that it's just not human is it and it shows

why do you see this not related to an individual situation? What kind of reference to the original question would you have considered more directed to the question?

It sounds like it's computer generated, it's not addressing the human being.

I don't much agree with the 'reading' anyway, 42.5 does not say that it is very 'important to act on aspirations' it says

'Sincere and confident, with a benevolent heart,
No question: good fortune from the source.
Sincerity, confidence and benevolence are my own de.'

There's nothing to wrong with making it say it's good to act on aspirations in this instance but that's not the core message really, it's the quality of the heart that is paramount here. Also there's no reader interacting with the querent and without that it's just empty.

 

[Liselle]

Is there a link to the Reddit thread? I wouldn't mind seeing what actual people came up with and if there was more back-and-forth with the querent.

It's kind of a hand-wavy line...how one would go about leaving one's family to travel while still being benevolent towards them, and doing all of this with fu...I'd have no idea and would want to dig in more probably.

 

[remod]

Well it fails in that it's just not human is it and it shows
It sounds like it's computer generated, it's not addressing the human being.

Yes! But how does it show it? What makes it sound "computer generated"?
I'm not a native English speaker, so I might miss the point where it clearly says something that a human wouldn't say.

I don't much agree with the 'reading' anyway, 42.5 does not say that it is very 'important to act on aspirations'

Sorry, I didn't mean "42.5" as "the fifth line of 42" but as a shorthand for "42.5 > 27", the full response.
it seems to me that this response to the question "What can I do to be able to travel/study abroad?" is a positive one and that it encourages the querent to pursue to persevere in his effort to move abroad.

Would you read it differently?

Also there's no reader interacting with the querent and without that it's just empty.

As a side note, I have to say that, for me, the dialogue with the I Ching is very personal and is something that I developed over many years. I rarely do readings for others because I believe that the response is fully meaningful only for the person who posed the question. If I had to do for others (like sometimes I was asked) I always warn them that what I can provide is just a generic, biased response, based on my limited comprehension of what's really going on.
So, I lack this notion of interaction between the reader and the querent, probably this is another reason I find difficult to judge the AI generated readings.

 

[remod]

Is there a link to the Reddit thread? I wouldn't mind seeing what actual people came up with and if there was more back-and-forth with the querent.

It's kind of a hand-wavy line...how one would go about leaving one's family to travel while still being benevolent towards them, and doing all of this with fu...I'd have no idea and would want to dig in more probably.

That's the post:

https://www.reddit.com/r/iching/comments/vlsk51
There is only one comment, unfortunately, no back and forth.

I must confess I've done the some for some question on the "Shared readings" section here on Clarity to see if the AI generated readings were substantially different from the human comments. I thought it was disrespectful to jump in the discussion there, since, I believe, this topic of AI generated readings is better discussed here in "Exploring divination".

 

[Trojina]

Yes! But how does it show it? What makes it sound "computer generated"?
I'm not a native English speaker, so I might miss the point where it clearly says something that a human wouldn't say.

There's nothing there a human wouldn't say it's just an impression. It's quite hard to define why it sounds computer generated. Rereading I suppose it sounds a bit dead. Perhaps it is something to do with texture, the sense of the person talking to you. The generated text reminds me of those horoscopes in newspapers

Self-reflection and sincerity in your intentions will be crucial. You are encouraged to persevere in your efforts, as this will lead to success and good fortune, especially in endeavors that take you across great distances (Hexagram 27)

Come to think of it what has 27 got to do with great distances ? No one speaks like that. It's not that anyone couldn't say it but it just sounds mechanical like reading a newspaper horoscope.

Sorry, I didn't mean "42.5" as "the fifth line of 42" but as a shorthand for "42.5 > 27", the full response.
it seems to me that this response to the question "What can I do to be able to travel/study abroad?" is a positive one and that it encourages the querent to pursue to persevere in his effort to move abroad

Yes I know you were giving the reading of 42.5>27 but I was just saying I wouldn't necessarily read 42.5 that way. There's so many factors in the question and Yi replies 'If you have a kind heart, ask not...' (Wilhelm I think) it's basically approving your motives, saying your heart is so true in this you need not worry. What if this person has people to care for at home? Well then this line would be maybe saying that their goodness in staying superseded their ambitions. It could be encouraging them to travel and study abroad but I think as Liselle said more input would be needed from them before being sure it was 'yes go ahead'.

I must confess I've done the some for some question on the "Shared readings" section here on Clarity to see if the AI generated readings were substantially different from the human comments. I thought it was disrespectful to jump in the discussion there, since, I believe, this topic of AI generated readings is better discussed here in "Exploring divination".

Do you mean you took readings from SR here over there ? Or do you mean you have done AI readings in SR ? I can't see that you have done many readings in SR.

But I can't say I like the idea of AI generated readings. It would be a pity I think if a person had to go to AI for a reading as they would always do a better job themselves surely even as a beginner.

 

[Trojina]

.....but it is a field I know nothing about so don't mind me.

 

[remod]

.....but it is a field I know nothing about so don't mind me.

Oh no, this is exactly the type of feedback I was looking for! Thank you.

I think I get what you mean by sounding "impersonal", I'll look into it.

I'll surely bother you all again with some new example

 

[remod]

Do you mean you took readings from SR here over there ? Or do you mean you have done AI readings in SR ? I can't see that you have done many readings in SR.

I mean I generate the AI reading and look at the general direction comparing it to the answer on the forum. I never posted them, I would never offer a generated reading without warning.
As I said, I don't think I'm able to do reading for others. The few attempts I made left me with a lingering sense of dissatisfaction (I didn't think I did a good job) and I stopped entirely.

 

[my_key]

If I may, I would suggest you get a copy of Legge's translation. It isn't as bad as many would like to appraise and it is in the public domain, unlike Wilhelm's.

Legge's translation is idiosyncratic to him and the environment around him and the times in which he was working. No more idiosyncratic than McClatchie writing around the same time or Wilhelm some 40 years later. They are just different. It's just a question of 'Which Ben and Jerry's flavour do you prefer?'

Legge does take a bit of getting used to but there are certain concepts that he handles well.

@remod - Maybe ask Yishi about the value of using a text that you are not comfortable with.

 

[my_key]

I rarely do readings for others because I believe that the response is fully meaningful only for the person who posed the question. If I had to do for others (like sometimes I was asked) I always warn them that what I can provide is just a generic, biased response, based on my limited comprehension of what's really going on.
So, I lack this notion of interaction between the reader and the querent, probably this is another reason I find difficult to judge the AI generated readings.

From all you have written, there is a real sense of ethical balance in the work you are doing in this experiment. That is to be applauded. Let's hope all other AI usages embrace the same ethical perspectives.

Readings for others is always tricky as we can only ever offer insights from our own lived experience and world view. You are absolutely right that that the response can only be fully meaningful for the person who posed the question.

Sometimes the only gift being offered in a reading to another comes not in the words we might say but more in the pictures and images that we can create for them. Images and symbology reside in the land of the collective unconscious and it can be these pictures or images, created in the reading, that short circuits potential limitations from personal bias or limited comprehension of what is really going on. Sometimes such readings do not need to be any more than generic.

I would agree with Trojina that, something seems lacking in the responses. Using my words, there is a clinical-like flatness to them. I imagine, too, them being read in a monotone voice (if Yishi could talk), without passion, nuance or inflection.

Reflecting now, I think that might have been a big influence on my first question regarding 'heart and soul' and 'displaying poetic, mythic, symbolic and imaginal themes' within the answers.

 

[remod]

For those interested in how this works, I've just put on GitHub all that is needed to create a customGPT (you need a GPT pro subscription for this).

The next steps for me will be:

• Replace the current Wilhelm translation with one made with chatGPT since the German text is in the Public domain now, (or remove it if I can't make it in a reasonable amount of time) [DONE]
• Add a translation in Italian (I want to try in my own language)
• Play around with the prompt to see if I can make it less cold and impersonal.
• Make some more experiment
• Possibly build something similar directly using OpenAI API
• Implement suggestions you might have for me.

Then I will probably declare the experiment "done" (at least for now ).

If anyone will download it from GH and need any help on how it works, let me know (but it's quite simple).

 

[remod]

Just pushed the new translation from German to English of Wilhelm text on GitHub and replaced it in the Yishi definition to avoid copyright issues.

I've machine translated it and reviewed it line by line. I kept the machine translation almost intact and only fixed some clear mistake.

I was thinking ... a nice addition would be to print the hexagram images. Let's see how hard is it.

 

[remod]

Adding images is not good, it would make impossible to share the outcome. I've resorted to adding the hexagram character itself to the title. Nowadays, fonts support a big portion of the Unicode set like in:

Primary Hexagram 16 "䷏ YU4, READINESS"​

An image would make it more readable, but we need to accept compromises.

 

[remod]

Talking about images, I've enabled DALL-E so that one can ask for a "summary image".
For example, from the question:
"How can I help my partner with their work-related issues?"
I got the response 55.5 > 49 which was summarized as:

To help your partner with their work-related issues, foster a positive and energetic attitude, like the sun at its peak. Encourage them to face challenges decisively and be prepared for upcoming opportunities. A period of transformation may be necessary, so advise them to embrace change with faith and perseverance for successful outcomes.

which, with the prompt "generate an image that summarizes the text above" created the following image:



Quite literal. Maybe with some better prompting, one could get something better.

 

[my_key]

The summary reads well and now even includes some imagery and analogy. Splendid progress.

I love the idea of providing the pictorial image for the reading. Karcher names 55 ' Receiving the Mandate' and 49 'Skinning / Revolution'. The inherent themes of both hexagrams are readily and easily recognisable through 'displaying poetic, mythic, symbolic and imaginal themes' in the generated image. Nice work.

 

[remod]

The next steps for me will be:

• Add a translation in Italian (I want to try in my own language) [DONE]

Created a new GPTs with the Italian translation (ML from German, rephrased with chatGPT and adjusted manually).
For those who can read Italian it's here. https://chat.openai.com/share/1414de1c-60b3-4a11-bbd1-5df07c56974b

 

[my_key]

Hi remod
I started a post HERE regarding a question that related to the thread in ED 'How long is a piece of imagery?' HERE

Question: When does Yi stop speaking to you? (you meaning anyone or everyone)
Answer: 5: 6 <> 9

( My interpretation and that of others, arrived at independently, is in the thread too, if that adds power to the experiment)

There is always a risk of bias when asking a question in which there is a deep personal vested interest. The reading obtained was certainly aligned with my belief system, however, I believe the answer I constructed was impartial and balanced. The reality may be different though.

For me AI, YiShi in this case, seems to be as impartial a reader of the oracle as you can get. I guess it's only as impartial as the writer of the code but now with multiple versions of the text in different languages the response could well carry huge amounts of colour.

Although, the subject matter might still be a bit abstract I'm curious to see what would transpire if YiShi was unleashed on topic.Would it add to your education of Yi Shi by posing this question either with the oracle cast I obtained or allowing it to cast something afresh. Perhaps even both!

The image generation option, if you could engage that again, I think would make for very interesting viewing.

​

.