Anti Vax Opinion

[susieq777]

This is a class war using a virus as its shield. The levels of data manipulation that have occurred in this pandemic alone were enough to make me see we are being manipulated. Hospitals paid extra if a death is a covid one? Ill-fitted PCR diagnostics, shoving sticks up sick ppl's noses when they're in hospital dying of their longstanding disease? There are too many red flags.

Anyone who cared to look at what was accepted pandemic practice pre-corporate fascism in 2020 will note the decidedly less militaristic and blamey approach. It was to isolate the vulnerable and to let society go on as normally as possible. This is what we did. It's why we didn't lock down for SARS but only did so since the billionaires of Davos decreed it so.

All of this stuff is documented.

But people refuse to see it.

We will see all of this in clearer detail in the future. There's no end to the manipulation you can foist on ppl when you own the media and govts. Which can be patently seen in the way their backflips and side dodges have rolled out globally.

Ppl won't see it. I'm used to that. No, I'm not a Trumper. I'm an anarchist.

You can come to these conclusions with basic old-fashioned class analysis and an understanding of history.

So I will stick with my original. Despite the unbelievably crazy and draconian corporate fascism we've been subjected to, the virus has taken the course it always would, being a largely mild illness for the vast majority.

But tell that to sacrificial 5 year olds getting force jabbed for something they are not at risk of. The death cult of capitalism takes form and dwells amongs the most vulnerable.

I'm not responding to anyone's responses to me so don't bother. I'm sick of us being so easily manipulated. I'm sick of the main narrative being the only acceptable one when it's cobbled together by the richest and most powerful.

 

[Moderators]

Moved to Open Space since the above is not connected to the reading and further discussion belongs here.

The above comment was originally posted in this thread and was moved

will we get rid of the coronavirus? hexagram 51.1>16

hexagram 51 speaks of shock with the variation of the first line makes me think of a yes, the first line says: there will be upheaval but then joking words will come. I have two ways to interpret it (according to my point of view) 1- it will be prolonged by something that will shock us but...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

I have retitled the thread as 'Anti vax opinion' as that is what it is. If you prefer another title let us know so we can change it.

 

[Trojina]

I'm not responding to anyone's responses to me so don't bother. I'm sick of us being so easily manipulated. I'm sick of the main narrative being the only acceptable one when it's cobbled together by the richest and most powerful.

I should think you're sick of a total disconnect from reality. People have died, people are still dying and in the UK 9 out of 10 patients in intensive care are the unvaccinated ! Nurses and Drs have more than enough to do without having to treat those who could have avoided getting sick.


So Americentric too, Covid doesn't revolve around US politics you know it's worldwide!

 

[Trojina]

So I will stick with my original. Despite the unbelievably crazy and draconian corporate fascism we've been subjected to, the virus has taken the course it always would, being a largely mild illness for the vast majority.

This statement is an insult to the thousands and thousand of people who have lost family members, friends and colleagues to this dreadful virus. It manifestly, undeniably IS NOT A LARGELY MILD ILLNESS but I am happy for you that you have lived in a such a snugly insulated anarchist bubble you can afford these kinds of fantasies about how US politics decided the entire world got Covid.

Spreading misinformation about the vaccine costs lives.

 

[moss elk]

It's amazing that someone wearing quite cracked and mud covered glasses thinks that they see clearly.

All (adolescent) dramatic assertions were given without evidence to back them up....
which is the hallmark of conspiracy nuts,
And irrationality in general.

 

[Trojina]

This is misinformation being propagated on substack by susieq

Inside/Outside | Sue Stevenson | Substack

Meditations on the future, the sociopathic "there" out there, the deeper "there" underneath, the universe in a grain of sand "in here" & all the ramblings inbetween. Click to read Inside/Outside, by Sue Stevenson, a Substack publication. Launched 3 years ago.

insideoutside.substack.com

....which I think you can read if you had the desire to.


This was the post from the original thread, a 6 month old thread Suzie decided to post

I think the question is a little dubious because you don't get rid of a virus, you adapt to it. Anyway, it's becoming endemic now, as all viruses do, so hurrah, we don't need to be forced to take jabs whose clinical trials are actually being run in real time. Omicron comes, joy and laughter, till the next manipulation and biggest upwards transfer of wealth in history. Happy, happy, joy, joy.

I had to look up the word endemic. It means something confined only to certain populations I think. So it isn't true Covid is now endemic. There seems to be a delusion that Omicron is a 'manipulation' rather than a reality.


The same writer posting here as susieq

"Just Get The Vax So We Can Open Up Again" is Infantile Abdication

This attitude is the same kind of reasoning women use to stay with abusive partners. Just put up with it and pretend you don't know on some level that you're refusing to see.

insideoutside.substack.com

In the link I can read 'Karen says get the vax' so this is a sexist aggressive delusional content mingled with the anti vaccine stance.

 

[zhongfu]

This is a class war using a virus as its shield. The levels of data manipulation that have occurred in this pandemic alone were enough to make me see we are being manipulated. Hospitals paid extra if a death is a covid one? Ill-fitted PCR diagnostics, shoving sticks up sick ppl's noses when they're in hospital dying of their longstanding disease? There are too many red flags.

Anyone who cared to look at what was accepted pandemic practice pre-corporate fascism in 2020 will note the decidedly less militaristic and blamey approach. It was to isolate the vulnerable and to let society go on as normally as possible. This is what we did. It's why we didn't lock down for SARS but only did so since the billionaires of Davos decreed it so.

All of this stuff is documented.

But people refuse to see it.

We will see all of this in clearer detail in the future. There's no end to the manipulation you can foist on ppl when you own the media and govts. Which can be patently seen in the way their backflips and side dodges have rolled out globally.

Ppl won't see it. I'm used to that. No, I'm not a Trumper. I'm an anarchist.

You can come to these conclusions with basic old-fashioned class analysis and an understanding of history.

So I will stick with my original. Despite the unbelievably crazy and draconian corporate fascism we've been subjected to, the virus has taken the course it always would, being a largely mild illness for the vast majority.

But tell that to sacrificial 5 year olds getting force jabbed for something they are not at risk of. The death cult of capitalism takes form and dwells amongs the most vulnerable.

I'm not responding to anyone's responses to me so don't bother. I'm sick of us being so easily manipulated. I'm sick of the main narrative being the only acceptable one when it's cobbled together by the richest and most powerful.

I agree with all you say...you do not have to respond - fair enough. But read this perhaps?

Yes, the jabbing of children is unconscionable - but this is a global coup d'etat which has been in motion since 2008 and these powerful ghouls will stop at nothing to install their biosecurity-state neo-feudal tyranny. I saw this in Jan 2020 and everything I feared has come to pass.
I asked not that long ago about whether I should fight or accept what this 'Reset' was bringng forward - accept as in not meet it head on, at least. Clearly the whole thing is unacceptable!

To Accept: I got (in Bradford Hatcher's words)

6 Contention (or Dispute)

9 at 2nd:
Not capable of contending
Capitulate and take refuge
One’s home town’s people, three hundred households,
Will escape suffering

06.2x Not capable of contending:
Capitulate, take refuge (or) sneak away *
From a lowly position to contend with superiors:
Suffering comes as a harvest

You travel to see the tyrant, bearing a list of your village’s grievances and seeking redress and justice. But your audience goes poorly, your lucid explanations, your logical arguments fall upon deaf ears. You are absolutely correct and the tyrant is equally wrong. Inferior people have all of the power today and reason has no voice. And yet you bow, and submit to honorable father, to a spoiled and arrogant fool. You bite your tongue and swallow your pride, you get small and invisible quickly and don’t even think about justice today. The truth was only one of the options: to find the others first means surviving. Picking one’s battles with care might be done best at the start, but soon after comes a close second. This is not submitting to fate, like a corpse or prisoner would. It’s about the best future, not about truth.

And the relating gua:

12.X , Overall Image
Heaven and earth do not interact
Separating
The noble young one, accordingly,
conserves virtue and avoids trouble
Not allowing himself luxury in the form of compensation

A sacred kind of sadness and heartbreaking beauty accompany the fall. A cold and indolent sky torments a field of parched grain. You envy those geese going south, going their own separate ways. The parasites and the rot do have their proper places. Half of the healthiest forests are death and decay. Not growing is not a stagnation. Nations, cultures and civilizations have their autumns as well, wherein the parasites might well belong, when decay might be a good thing. But there is not much here for a sage or great leader. They may become uninvolved and withdraw to conserve their resources, not taking bait, not giving wrongness something to rally and live for.​

12.0 Separating*

oneself from inferior people* ​

Those not worth the young noble’s loyalty
Greatness departs, smallness arrives

Greatness is done here. The small move in and seize power. All intelligence leaves the masses. Now petty tyrants, passive aggressives, parasites and looters take over the kingdom. Scavengers gnaw on what’s left. Do not fear the wolves here: selection brought evolution this far. Beware instead of sheep in sheep’s clothing. The wolves might be their salvation. Priorities now are established by polls, and values by a vote. Rules will stand in for ethics. Majorities stand just as ready as any dictator could be to play the part of the tyrant. The will of the people is only peer pressure writ large, like mob rule but in slower motion. A world goes numb as the work of our glorious progress is left to decay and gravity. The middle ground is barren, more tedium than toil. How many times have we done this now? How many cultures collapsed has this one oracle seen? And yet this is how things should be. The things which have failed to merit survival fail to survive; things which are not sustainable cannot be sustained. How evolved and smart can we be and not learn this? So what are young nobles to do here? Just leave things? Or leave things which can be rediscovered next spring?​

To fight? three moving lines, all about The Family (the hearth, the home...)

The top moving line:

37.6, Top 9 , Zhi Gua 63: Ji Ji, Already Complete
(Fan Yao 63.6: soaking one’s head, serious)
Being true is as good as impressive The outcome is just as promising
37.6x Rather than being impressive, keep the promise Coming back to one’s own individual style
Father is first to admit it: he has as much growing to do as the wife and the kids. His place is something he earns. Authority authors its own life first. Life is an old enough process to know how to govern itself. A good work commands with more depth than coercion and the only compulsion that works well is that of compelling example. Motivation which only negates learns little about our reasons for moving. Superior authority works on the substance beneath it and relies not so much on its orders of who can peck whom. More evolved systems exist than those developed by chickens, but they also require more courage. True authority learns to respect before it asks for respect in turn, so that candor and frankness are signs of respect. Being familiar is a good thing, not unimpressive. Unimpressive is not being true.

 

[zhongfu]

This statement is an insult to the thousands and thousand of people who have lost family members, friends and colleagues to this dreadful virus. It manifestly, undeniably IS NOT A LARGELY MILD ILLNESS but I am happy for you that you have lived in a such a snugly insulated anarchist bubble you can afford these kinds of fantasies about how US politics decided the entire world got Covid.

Spreading misinformation about the vaccine costs lives.

You have no right to answer in this way - nor are you the adjudicator of the science.

 

[zhongfu]

It's amazing that someone wearing quite cracked and mud covered glasses thinks that they see clearly.

All (adolescent) dramatic assertions were given without evidence to back them up....
which is the hallmark of conspiracy nuts,
And irrationality in general.

Couching your insults in metaphorical language does not make your statements more true or your insults any more palatable.

 

[kestrelw1ngs]

why is this being given a thread? its only loosely connected to a Yi reading. I'm confused.

The upward wealth transfer and power grab =/= COVID being a fake or manipulation? Wealth transfers are simply twisted opportunism, imo. Not everything has intention behind it.

And moss elk's response to me, is fair. It is despair-inducing to watch paranoia, conspiracy take hold of the surviving U.S. population. The vaccine does not wholly prevent all variants but why is that the target of all this vitriol? Rather than price-gaugers, or the government which does not take action to care for its population like China,Vietnam, etc. did? Or the CDC for insisting its fine to go to work, but not see loved ones?

The fear of "totalitarianism" is being used to justify eugenics and mass death here. The vaccine alone isn't enough to stop it, and I understand why the fear exists, but its dangerous to keep peddling this narrative.

 

[Liselle]

why is this being given a thread? its only loosely connected to a Yi reading. I'm confused.

It's Open Space - Hilary's view, as I understand it, is to have some tolerance for lots of things here. Not infinite tolerance, though.

 

[IrfanK]

I am genuinely curious why people post this kind of stuff. I mean, did the original post even have a reference to anything to do with the Yi, or was it just a rant? Quickly skimming, I see that there are a few cases where people actually drag the Yi into it, but it really just seems like an excuse for the poster to express their beliefs.

I mean, do people go onto forums for crochet or cricket or smart phones or pipe smoking and just start ranting about covid? And if so, why? Does anyone really believe that they are actually going to change someone's opinion? Or is it just for the fun and excitement of fighting with someone about it? A sort of cathartic process?

I rarely get involved in these discussions. Any response just seems to feed the whole thing. And it's always just a repeat of what everyone has already said before. As a hobby, it seems kind of boring and silly.

But if anyone here, on either side of the fence, would like to tell me why they think they do this, I'd be genuinely interested to hear. I'll listen respectfully to any sincere answer and acknowledge the author's effort. Thanks!

 

[moss elk]

Couching your insults in metaphorical language does not make your statements more true or your insults more palatable.

My words were not written to pleasure Mr zhongfu's taste buds.
(could have at least used a metaphor involving ears?)
Nor am I bothered at all that they displease him.

I do notice however, that he shares the same quality of making assertions of conspiracy without providing evidence to back up any of the assertions. Which sheds a specific kind of spotlight on him & the assertions.
All burden to prove is upon the shoulders of Susie and zhongfu, until such a time would come,
The reception given so far is the exact appropriate one.

 

[Trojina]

I am genuinely curious why people post this kind of stuff. I mean, did the original post even have a reference to anything to do with the Yi, or was it just a rant? Quickly skimming, I see that there are a few cases where people actually drag the Yi into it, but it really just seems like an excuse for the poster to express their beliefs.

This thread wasn't started by anyone it was merely moved off an SR thread. See post 2, there's a link that takes you back to the original thread. Here it is again for clarity

will we get rid of the coronavirus? hexagram 51.1>16

hexagram 51 speaks of shock with the variation of the first line makes me think of a yes, the first line says: there will be upheaval but then joking words will come. I have two ways to interpret it (according to my point of view) 1- it will be prolonged by something that will shock us but...

www.onlineclarity.co.uk

So SusieQ's post, who posted the first post in this thread, was just a rant that was moved over here to Open Space where people are quite free to rant about anything non Yi related. Often politics threads are put here especially when they were Trump related as of course opinion gets heated. And if you go back to that thread there is more general discussion that followed after that though not much.

Also of course if rants are posted it's natural people want to reply and so this is a place they can reply and argue. It is partly what Open Space is for, a kind of overflow because often in the course of readings about politics or controversial subjects the discussion will veer off and then there's an option between stopping it, tantamount to saying 'don't' or moving it so people can continue if they want to

I agree I don't really think this thread is going anywhere but I am continually amazed at what people are prepared to believe to support their world view. Also of course the spreading of these conspiracy theories isn't harmless, it's costing a lot in lives and resources so why wouldn't people reply. If no one replied to rants like SusieQ I wouldn't stay on this forum I don't think. I'm glad some people come along to say what they think. I'd be utterly dismayed if they didn't, it would be a dead place devoid of truth or values.

 

[hilary]

It's Open Space - Hilary's view, as I understand it, is to have some tolerance for lots of things here. Not infinite tolerance, though.

Succinctly put.

In the past I have banned people for overt racism and misogyny, but not for eg expressing support for Trump. Murky grey areas, continuums, etc. Same with Covid-related stuff: there is a line somewhere beyond which I would want to remove posts, but we haven't reached it yet.

Also of course if rants are posted it's natural people want to reply and so this is a place they can reply and argue. It is partly what Open Space is for, a kind of overflow because often in the course of readings about politics or controversial subjects the discussion will veer off and then there's an option between stopping it, tantamount to saying 'don't' or moving it so people can continue if they want to

Yes, exactly. Open Space is originally just for off-topic chat generally, because what would any website be without cat videos? But it does also provide this useful spot for conversations that might have started with readings but went off track - something that tends to happen with politics, and of course conspiracy theories. (It's bizarre how much those two seem to overlap...)

 

[moss elk]

something that tends to happen with politics, and of course conspiracy theories
(It's bizarre how much those two seem to overlap...)

It's simple.
There are people who knowingly poison the well.
Then naive, wide eyed, or deranged, half wits take it for a run around the village.
It's propaganda 101.

(The OP is a self proclaimed anarchist, don't let that telling bit of info escape notice)

 

[zhongfu]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence. The fact that we interpret things in different ways is something else entirely. We should accept and respect each other's freedom to articulate these different interpretations. Nobody is forcing you to agree to something another has said.

But to attack the original post by labeling it 'anti-vax opinion' when not one word mentioned vaccines at all is the first telling indictment of just how narrow-minded intolerance typified the reaction to someone expressing views the moderator did not like.

There are plenty of people, highly qualified and highly respected ones - scientists, psychologists, economists, historians, political analysts and others - who would strongly support many of the things mentioned in the original post. And they can and do provide strong irrefutable evidence to support them.

The labeling of it as conspiracy theory is a tactical response first developed by the CIA. It is not an argument, it is nothing more than a patronising insult. This is unacceptable in a forum such as this. Moderators should not act as thought-police.

As an aside. It is quite surprising to find just how many of the things given this label have one by one actually come to pass or been proven to be true.

My response to the intolerance shown by the moderator and the commentators on this thread was and still is a deep sadness. I have no problems with you disagreeing. Far from it. But this kind of cancel behaviour should have no place in this forum.

And kindly have the politeness and decency to address me directly. Not through a third party.

 

[moss elk]

There are plenty of people, highly qualified and highly respected ones - scientists, psychologists, economists, historians, political analysts and others - who would strongly support many of the things mentioned in the original post. And they can and do provide strong irrefutable evidence to support them.

And yet, you still do not link to those articles, so that people may see and reason for themselves.
So, You may as well talk about the unicorns that are also hatching up plans,
But instead: you whine about cancel culture.

Sure smells like a disposition in search of things to support the disposition.

If you have reasoned positions, now is the time to support them,
Otherwise please refrain from posting.

 

[Trojina]

But to attack the original post by labeling it 'anti-vax opinion' when not one word mentioned vaccines at all is the first telling indictment of just how narrow-minded intolerance typified the reaction to someone expressing views the moderator did not like.

This in particular is quite an absurd accusation since it was very clearly stated that the title could be changed if SusieQ wished. If a thread is moved one has to give it some title but it's clearly stated here, you can't miss it that the title is open to be changed should Susie want it which she didn't. Here it is again

I have retitled the thread as 'Anti vax opinion' as that is what it is. If you prefer another title let us know so we can change it.

There we are, post 2 on this thread, go and look at it....or not as you wish. If she objected she could have it changed at any time to something she thought described her position.

 

[Trojina]

You have no right to answer in this way - nor are you the adjudicator of the science.

So I have no right to answer but then you say

We should accept and respect each other's freedom to articulate these different interpretations.

But you've just said I had no right to answer.

There are plenty of people, highly qualified and highly respected ones - scientists, psychologists, economists, historians, political analysts and others - who would strongly support many of the things mentioned in the original post. And they can and do provide strong irrefutable evidence to support them.

And none of them can account for the actual overflowing wards where real people do real work. There is no 'irrefutable evidence' of anything at all.

The labeling of it as conspiracy theory is a tactical response first developed by the CIA. It is not an argument, it is nothing more than a patronising insult.

I find it insulting in a sense that in a global pandemic affecting the entire world you think it's all about the USA and it's politics.


Bear in mind if you were being as silenced or as 'cancelled' as you think you are this thread wouldn't exist it would have been deleted. But it is still open and anyone can read SusieQ's and your opinion so I think the whole 'I have been cancelled' lament doesn't really add up especially given I have been told directly by you that I have no right to have an opinion. You said

You have no right to answer in this way - nor are you the adjudicator of the science.

...then you said we all have a right to have our views so.

An 'adjudicator' of science. An adjudicator is a judge, so you're saying not only do I have no right to speak I cannot judge science whereas presumably you do have a right to speak and you can judge science. Interesting.

I don't think we need to be scientists to see the impact of Covid do we.

 

[IrfanK]

Actually, there is plenty of evidence. The fact that we interpret things in different ways is something else entirely. We should accept and respect each other's freedom to articulate these different interpretations. Nobody is forcing you to agree to something another has said.

But to attack the original post by labeling it 'anti-vax opinion' when not one word mentioned vaccines at all is the first telling indictment of just how narrow-minded intolerance typified the reaction to someone expressing views the moderator did not like.

There are plenty of people, highly qualified and highly respected ones - scientists, psychologists, economists, historians, political analysts and others - who would strongly support many of the things mentioned in the original post. And they can and do provide strong irrefutable evidence to support them.

The labeling of it as conspiracy theory is a tactical response first developed by the CIA. It is not an argument, it is nothing more than a patronising insult. This is unacceptable in a forum such as this. Moderators should not act as thought-police.

As an aside. It is quite surprising to find just how many of the things given this label have one by one actually come to pass or been proven to be true.

My response to the intolerance shown by the moderator and the commentators on this thread was and still is a deep sadness. I have no problems with you disagreeing. Far from it. But this kind of cancel behaviour should have no place in this forum.

And kindly have the politeness and decency to address me directly. Not through a third party.

Okay, sure. I'm not expressing any disagreement with you here on this thread. Whether or not it's true, what do you hope to get out of posting it here? Do you see yourself opening people's eyes to the truth? Do you imagine that people who believe something different will change their minds because your logic is so persuasive? And then, they will ... what? And do you post similar posts on ... well, forums about cat food or drones or photographic equipment?

What's the game plan?

Or are you not at liberty to discuss this because ... you know. Walls have ears.

 

[moss elk]

I don't think we need to be scientists to see the impact of Covid do we.

I need only look to my two deceased coworkers (of twelve) , Jeff and Larry, to see it.
Both were in their 50's.

 

[Trojina]

Sorry to hear that

 

[zhongfu]

Okay, sure. I'm not expressing any disagreement with you here on this thread. Whether or not it's true, what do you hope to get out of posting it here? Do you see yourself opening people's eyes to the truth? Do you imagine that people who believe something different will change their minds because your logic is so persuasive? And then, they will ... what? And do you post similar posts on ... well, forums about cat food or drones or photographic equipment?

What's the game plan?

Or are you not at liberty to discuss this because ... you know. Walls have ears.

No, I'm very clear about why I posted what I posted. I felt that the moderator and another individual acted completely inappropriately in a number of ways - against the spirit of an Open Forum and free speech and in a very prejudicial and dismissive way - and all of their subsequent responses and self-justifications have done nothing but reaffirm my opinion.

 

[Liselle]

Zhongfu, have you read what Trojina said above? This part, for instance?

Bear in mind if you were being as silenced or as 'cancelled' as you think you are this thread wouldn't exist it would have been deleted. But it is still open and anyone can read SusieQ's and your opinion so I think the whole 'I have been cancelled' lament doesn't really add up

 

[hilary]

I think Zhong Fu has different ideas about what 'free speech' amounts to.

 

[hilary]

Zhong Fu, if you have a complaint about the moderation of this forum, please start a private conversation with me.

 

[zhongfu]

Well of course I do. Hence my initial post. But also I realise fully that I'm crying to the wind. O tempora, o mores! Don't worry. I am leaving Clarity.

 

[moss elk]

*poof* goes the cloud of smoke,
And no evidence was provided.

Although they both had every opportunity to provide any proof of the things they were saying, of course they choose not to.

Because they didn't have any.
Because there isn't any.

Scrutiny is the bane of falsehoods.

 

[moss elk]

Nice try, Q :]

Steve Kirsch is identified as
a spreader of covid misinformation
on wikipedia,
Including: hydroxychlor-anon,
And saying the vaccine makes people sterile...etc
When Steve saw the evidence from the study that showed hydroxychlor-anon doesn't work,
He rejected the evidence.
Which makes him : Cuckoo.

Read about his activities here:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Kirschet

How about this thread is closed?

I doubt Hilary wants to be providing a platform that facilitates the spread of this dangerous cult/con garbage.