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simon_uk

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Hi

I am new to this community but have been a reader for some time.
I first dipped into the I Ching about 18 months ago. I picked up Karchers Symbols of Love when a realtionship I was in ended.

I have recently had another relationship end for reasons unbeknown to me. Nothing major, just my GF had a few issues of her own.

I have since (last 4 weeks) been consulting the oracle endlessly. All the questions have been realting to the future of my relationship, will she come back, how does she feel etc.

Like I say, I must have asked maybe 20 questions a day, everyday. Obviously asking repeatedly is going to give me a lot of different results.

However the majority of them say the same things. That I need to not impose my will and that things look positive. I am now trying to limit my consultations so as not to overdo it and confuse myself.

My last couple last night were

That I seem to be wasting my time waiting in hope, I need to move on, is this what I should do?

Result - Hex 24 - Returning

My next question was So does this mean She will return to me? Is that an accurate assesment

Result - Hex 9 Relating Hex 37 Changing line 9 at second

I then asked if I should stay hidden and not try to force things

Result - Hex 39 Relating Hex 2 Changing Lines 9 at Third and 9 at fifth

I concluded that things look positive based on these results but I would love some feedback from people who know more than I. I am a mere beginner.

I dont want to build my hopes up too much based on these results in case nothing comes to fruition. I also dont want to live everyday watching my phone, waiting for her to contact me. This may never happen? I try to have faith in the oracle but I just dont know how accurate it is and like I say I dont want to live my life in hope of a reconcilliation in case it doesnt happen.

Thank you for your time

Simon
 
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lightofreason

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This comes across as a solid issue of emotional dynamics. The Emotional I Ching may help in identifying the situation (or where you are working from unconsciously).

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html (preamble)

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/icplusEProact.html

Let us know what you get and I will try to interpret for you.

it is still 'developing' but works at the current level of development if at times one can 'see it coming'.

GIVEN what the emotions assess as the context so work is possible to either stay in that context or move on.

Chris.
 

simon_uk

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didnt really understand a lot of the information you sent me Chris, nor did I really understand the method. However, I asked a question and chose the answers I thought related to what I was asking.

I received 58 Changing to 47

Not really sure what it means or what I am doing.

The question was whether we will be back together again.

Simon
 
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lightofreason

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simon_uk said:
didnt really understand a lot of the information you sent me Chris, nor did I really understand the method. However, I asked a question and chose the answers I thought related to what I was asking.

I received 58 Changing to 47

Not really sure what it means or what I am doing.

The question was whether we will be back together again.

Simon

;-) the focus is on moving from the general to the particular so to start, the method does not care what the question is, it works off your feelings about the situation. The overall context here appears to be one of joy, intensity in expression, an existing love, transforming into a feeling of being caged, contained, controlled OR a need to contain, cage, control.

From the generic level we have a state of sensation seeking transforming into security seeking. Emotionally we have sexual love (Lake base) transforming into issues of Rejection/Rejecting (water base, the contracting boundary (enclosure) protects)

So -- are you feeling a bit caged Simon? or feel a need to 'cage' - to focus of us ve them? - water is of particular notice in that the rejection boundary is strong and can represent issues of strong betrayal by or of another/others.

Chris.
 

simon_uk

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After reading Alex B's thread regarding a woman. I again consulted the oracle and asked
"What do I need to know about how to handle the situation with T?"

The result 16 changing to 8

Changing lines 9 on fourth 6 on fifth

Again this sounds positive to me but like I say I am just a beginner.

Simon
 

simon_uk

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I dont know if I feel caged Chris or the need to cage or control. I feel betrayed and rejected yes. Because two days before we broke up she was discussing us living together and the day before she told my sister she loved me.

I feel like the whold relationship was, shall we say fake. I dont know whether what she told me was true or not at the time now. She has had problems with abuse in prior relationships and she was very scared and confused about things.

I dont know how that relates to anything. Like I say I dont feel the need to control her or cage her, nor do I feel caged, perhaps caged in with a bunch of feelings and emotions that I cant seem to shake. I cannot get her off my mind, everyday from morning until night. But I have never forced the issue with her, I respect her wishes to be alone and have left her to it. I would never pressure her.

Hope that clarifies somethings? I dont know. I am somewhere in between the realms of optimism and pessimism. I know nobody has any answers but the Oracle does feel like a friend with often great advice.

I just wish I knew if it were accurate in its suggestions. Only time will tell?

Thanks

Simon
 

willowfox

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Hi simon,

That I seem to be wasting my time waiting in hope, I need to move on, is this what I should do?

Result - Hex 24 - Returning
hex 24 is return, signifying a turning point, after a period of darkness light comes again into your life, to re-establish, to restore , friends will come, what you had before can be renewed. Hex 24 indicates the period of time around the end of November.

My next question was So does this mean She will return to me? Is that an accurate assesment

Result - Hex 9 Relating Hex 37 Changing line 9 at second
hex 9.2 says that you should wait for the right time.
hex 37 the family, man and wife, a relationship that holds the family together. Looks quite positive.

I then asked if I should stay hidden and not try to force things

Result - Hex 39 Relating Hex 2 Changing Lines 9 at Third and 9 at fifth

hex 39.3 says going forward leads to obstruction, therefore stay still.
hex 39.5 says seek help to overcome the obstruction that you are facing.

hex 2 says you should follow and not take the lead.
Therefore, it suggests that you should stay still and not force the issue, wait for things to unfold.
 

simon_uk

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HI Willowfox

Thank you so much for your interpretation.

A couple of questions if you dont mind.

How does Hex 24 relate to November? Where does this information come from?

Also I find myself repeatedly asking the same questions and consulting the Oracle constantly. Just to give myself reassurance I think. More often than not I get similar results. Stay hidden, return, that the relationship is a match made in heaven. I get Hex 54 quite a lot too, which relates to The Marrying Maiden. It does give me a lot of hope but I dont know if I should be doing this constant consulting? Every now and then I get a changing line that says the way closes or give up this relationship. That makes me consult even more.

Can I do more harm than good by keep asking questions?

I have just consulted and asked

I have faith that she will come to me if I stay still and not make a move. Is this correct?

Result Hex 2 changing to Hex 3

Changing lines 6 at First and 6 at Fifth

More confirmation as far as I can tell. I am just so eager. This break up is affecting me quite badly but I dont want to rush into things and ruin any chance I have. It is just very hard to just be patient and let go, even though the Oracle keeps telling me to do so.

Thanks Again

Simon
 
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autumn

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16.4 changes to 2,
Be confident; her feelings still draw her to you. Be in a receptive state.
16.5 changes to 45,
What is between you isn't over, it is floundering, but it continues beneath the service. The bond between you leads to reunion.
Relating Hex.,8
Expect union.

You mentioned that you keep consulting, and sometimes get hexagram 54 and messages to let go. Those are messages about the emotional state you have allowed this situation to create in your life, and your dependency on hope, and constant anxiety about the separation. Those are inner core issues that will not go away regardless of when you see her again. Don't let the ultimate question be, "will she come back", let it be, "is this healthy for me? where am I/are we persistently ill?"
 

simon_uk

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Thanks Autumn

Yes Hex 54 comes up a lot as does Hex 27, sometimes primary, sometimes secondary.

I kept assuming Hex 54 suggested a marriage?

You are right though, this situation has causes anxiety because she was constantly telling me how much she loved me and spoke of moving in together two days before she left. It just came a s acomplete shock and surprise, even to my sister who is her work colleague. Because she was forever telling my sister how much I meant to her etc etc and then in an instant, gone.

I will try asking the question you suggested. Can you just clarify what you mean? Is this question totally unrelated to my relationship. More to do with how I am feeling about it?

Ok I asked
Is this situation healthy for me
Result Hex 14

So then I asked

What do I need to do about my emotional state?

Result Hex 13 Changing to 49
Changing 9 on Top

Simon
 
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rosada

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Dear Simon,

I wonder if you might get value from consulting a different translation of the I Ching? I am not familiar with the Symbols of Love, but it sounds to me as if it is slanting the interpretations to specifically refer to relationships. Perhaps reading a translation that has the lines relating to life in general would help you more now.

Rosada
 

autumn

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Simon,
What I meant was- the ultimate question isn't whether or not she is there or not there. The ultimate question is whether you are gaining emotional strength or losing emotional strength by being on this path. If she comes back, and makes you miserable in the long run, well, you see it would have been better if she never came back.

54 is not about a a happy marriage. 54 is about a concubine. Specifically, an ancient teenage girl who had just a few choices- die, become a slave, or marry an old man with enough money to take care of her comfortably if she agrees to become wife number 5 or 6. The allegory is about being subordinated to a situation we have no power to change. It can come up for any situation that is a bad situation, but requires you adjust, and survive, and cope with the bad situation. When you make the choice of the marrying maiden, you give away your power. That's what you're doing.

Right now, you have to sit still and accept the present moment (and in the present moment, she is not here). The oracle suggests this is not a permanent state. Let that answer be enough. Move on to peace and accept the present moment. It is possible even now to change the future, and to make choices that change the tendency for her return that's being shown right now by acting out of fear. So don't mess that up. Learn the lesson of the present.

Chris wants you to do his emotional IC, and that's probably a good idea. There is nothing for you to do right now except focus on yourself and getting clarity about the present moment, and having him help you choose the hexagrams to concentrate on may work well.
 

simon_uk

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Sorry Chris

I dont mean to be a bit dim but can you please clarify what I need to do? What am I answering?

Simon
 

simon_uk

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OK Autumn

I consulted the oracle and asked
am I gaining or losing emotional strength being on the path I am on

Result Hex 31 Changing to Hex 6

Changing lines on 2,3 and 6

simon
 

simon_uk

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Ok regarding my feelings Chris

I got 10 changing to 1

I answered the three questions on the left. The three on the right I left as they were? Is this right?

Not sure how I can answer about her feelings though? think I am missing the point?

simon
 
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lightofreason

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simon_uk said:
Ok regarding my feelings Chris

I got 10 changing to 1

I answered the three questions on the left. The three on the right I left as they were? Is this right?

Not sure how I can answer about her feelings though? think I am missing the point?

simon

Just answer the questions on the left in relation to YOU. Then make sure that the selections on the RIGHT are the same. This will give a general hexagram describing you.

Then do the same for HER in that you are asking your feelings to describe her and so how she comes across to you IN GENERAL. (OR get a third party to answer them for you to get a more 'objective' asessment - discuss etc)

From these two hexagrams we can identify basic persona types of each of you, as well as the common ground, what she resonates with in you, and you in her overall. GIVEN that then comes the consideration regarding if it will be worth the energy to continue or is it time to 'move on'.

This is all pathwork stuff using the I Ching and so other material. Perseverence furthers...

Chris.
 

autumn

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Ok, you're done for the day. Just concentrate on the messages. Let the messages soak in. The last question you asked is just a reflection of your desire to change the way things are right now. You've already asked is she coming back. It seems she will. Then you keep asking, and the oracle decides to comment on the fact you keep asking. It brings up the following themes:

54- giving away power.
27- in its most negative form, addiction and dependency.

There's an extremely basic, simple message here, and that message is, "don't give her more power over your emotional state than you yourself possess (14)". When you asked what to do about your emotional state, you received 13.6 (49), forming a practical alliance with others around you to see into the heart of the issue. Kind of like what you're doing now. 2.1.5. (3) says faith and expecation of her return results in the joining of yin and yang, in hexagram 3. But hexagram 3 is difficult. She's going to come back, and with her bring difficulties.

Think about this- and don't ask anymore questions. When you let someone know they are in control of your inner state, then they can, if they lack maturity, decide to take advantage of you. They can decide to play games to prove to themselves you "really, really love them" by suddenly breaking up with you again, and putting you through the whole thing again. They don't have to respect you as much.

You're getting positive answers, but were you asking the most important questions? Don't ask anything, just think about the themes of 54 and 27.
 

willowfox

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Hi simon,

the I Ching says that hex 24 represents November/December, I just narrowed the time down to the end of November, so if she is coming back to you then it will be around this time. Your answers suggest you have patience and wait.

If you keep asking questions about the same things all the time, then all you are doing is muddying the waters. It is very inadvisable to keep pestering the I Ching for answers to the same questions. You cannot keep asking the same question again until you get an answer that you like, the oracle does not work that way.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Simon

Just in case the comment could be of any use

1.- I would suggest you to follow the emotional IC, from Cris.

2.- Now, from a traditional aproach:
a) Stop making questions at least for one week.
b) Meanwhile, do some meditation about YOUR situation (focus in you, not in her)
c) After one week, ask one single question:
"General Diagnosis of the relation between X and I"

From that answer, we can built a clearer picture, and made folowing concrete questions.

Best wishes
 

simon_uk

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Ok I think I got it Chris. Sorry

For me I got

Hex 59 No change

For Her

I got

Hex 51 No Change

Simon
 

simon_uk

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Autumn

YOu said in a previous post that I could change the future? How would this happen? Do you mean by keep asking the same questions or by my emotional state?

I am sorry, I am quite new to this and the understanding of it. IT does fascinate me. I have only just started to cast in the correct manner. Perhaps in the last week or so, prior to that I was doing things wrong.

I sometimes use coins (3 Coin method) have tried yarrow stalks and also a token method. I took sixteen cards and drew the lines on them the same as you would have number of marbles and I draw cards. Dont know if this is an accurate method? More recently I have been using the online clarity flash oracle.

I must admit that the I Chng does give me some hope in the situation. It gives me peace of mind that perhaps all is not lost.

It is interesting what you say about her maturity. I was 38 last week and she is only 25 in a few weeks. She is very mature for her age but whetehr she is emotionally mature, I dont know. She seemed to know what she wanted in life but that just changed overnight. She panicked as far as I can tell and she said she was confucing herself. She has been in very abusive relationships in the past and is quite nervy about things. She doesnt wear her heart on her sleeve and keeps things bottled up inside.

I have been through break ups before and survived, I know I will survive this. I just feel so anxious and worried about things because it came out of nowhere and I never really got any explanation from her. My mind is racing with questions of why? what changed? is it something I did? it really knocked my self esteem. In other breakups I have had an explanation but not with this, that is why I am so confused. For her to tell my sister how much she loved me one day to not being with me the next has just really upset and confused me. This is why I am seeking answers to so many questions.

Anyway, thank you for your time and patience with me friends, it is much appreciated.

SImon
 
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lightofreason

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simon_uk said:
Ok I think I got it Chris. Sorry

For me I got

Hex 59 No change

For Her

I got

Hex 51 No Change

Simon

Ok - we can refine it a bit more - if these are right then we have:

010011 (59) (R you sure? I assume changing line 3? - the second three lines should be the same as the first three?)
100100 (51)
---------
110111 (10)

hexagram 10 represents the common ground, the 'key' of the relationship. Tricky. Lots of being careful, each step scrutinised. definite path to follow but 'tread' carefully (and that seems to be coming out already!)

If on the other hand it was 57 (011011), 51 then hexagram 01 is the common ground. Competitive, LOTS of mediation, intense, single minded! (and so you are structural 'opposites')

What we have here is (a) she is your '51-ness' and (b) you are here '59-ness' (or 57..) and for BOTH those states are described by analogy to 10 or 01 - This is the 'key' of the relationship overall given the above information it is what 'resonates' overall (the rest being secondary+ harmonics)

You appear to see yourself as a protector/conservator/preserver and so a focus in containment/control (if 59 is right) OR as an auditor/umpire/cultivator and so focused on being/becoming influencial (if 57 is right) You lack trust in others overall but once 'within' your boundary you are a provider of the necessities of life etc - ever done any teaching?

You appear to see her as more of a 'engineering' (inventor/debator/designer/architect etc) type. (thunder = enlightenment, surprise, shock, sudden)

Emotionally, the focus in you comes out of rejection/rejecting (all part of the protector focus) and for her the focus is on surprise etc Is she cerebral? She lacks trust in her self overall. (given this, there is an attraction to isolation when stressed, run n hide, and a degree of emotional "avarice", can appear to be insensitive)

For the 'common ground', 10 covers joy/love/cooperative (lake base) etc wheras 01 is a bit more aggro, competitive (heaven base).

Based on what you have given, the common ground can be 'joy' oriented (10) or 'heaven' oriented (01). Intense stuff. Both reflect Artisan dynamics - risk taking, independence driven, can be too excitable - and expensive.

To get/maintain resonance means to work on the common ground. For 10 set a path of development, careful and precise. For 01 get playful in a competitive fashion - lots of mediation dynamics to learn skills from each other. These will need to focus on YOUR 59/57 nature to elicit resonance in her.

SO - if you want her back she needs to 'see' something that elicits resonance and a 'need' to come back, a 'want' to come back. OTOH, if you see little in her other than lust for her - then forget it and move on (yeh I know, difficult to do! ;-))

Do you understand emotional transference? The intent is to elicit a resonance of an emotion in the other person where the emotion originates in you. This gets into 'tuning' where there is no relationship between A and B other than the same tuning such that activity in A will elicit activity in B for no reason other than resonance. The problem is our consiousness has no idea what is going on and so will try and interpret this resonance, give it meaning other than 'resonance' - and so imagination can run wild and that can elicit 'adoration' or 'agape (love)' etc that is overwhelming due to no history.

The best place to do this resonance is through the use of the face/eyes - establish a constant 'look' every time you see her but WITHOUT any history of that look. The easy way is to 'see' someone else you once adored/loved/hated/whatever 'in her' as you look. This will bring up the associated emotions into YOUR face and eyes. The other person will register this look consciously/unconsciously (especially if done over time - habituation takes over) as if applied to them but WITHOUT the history (the imagined element)

Over time of repeated exposure the emotion will build in the other person to be overwhelming due to the lack of history and so a need develops to 'ground' the emotion and so contact is made - small talk to start with but build from there - if you are prepared to put in the energy! ;-)

This also gets into the 'look' interaction of babies and their mothers etc and possible influences on persona development later in life. Overall we are looking (!) at the use of mirror neurons etc and emotional development. The overall focus here is on establishing/re-establishing resonance - and there are moral issues involved in that this sort of dynamic can come across as 'psychic rape' in that 'something' is being inserted in the mind without permission and if left to 'fester' can do damage through consciousness trying to figure out what is going on! (to 'defeat' this stuff the simple method is to get some history "why do you look at me like that?" or to get permission "You know you look like XXX, I adored XXX" etc etc)

The right emotion-ladened look can re-establish a lost rapport quicker than, and/or in addition to, words. it reflects parallel/holistic, non-verbal, communications.

The IC can aid in identifying the 'common ground' resonance for that emotion/look.

Chris.
 

simon_uk

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lightofreason said:
Ok - we can refine it a bit more - if these are right then we have:

010011 (59) (R you sure? I assume changing line 3? - the second three lines should be the same as the first three?)

I think so Chris, I just tried again but the submit button wont work.


lightofreason said:
You appear to see yourself as a protector/conservator/preserver and so a focus in containment/control (if 59 is right) OR as an auditor/umpire/cultivator and so focused on being/becoming influencial (if 57 is right) You lack trust in others overall but once 'within' your boundary you are a provider of the necessities of life etc - ever done any teaching?

Yes I would see myself as a protector. Most definitely. And I do lack trust in others. Even more so now.

lightofreason said:
You appear to see her as more of a 'engineering' (inventor/debator/designer/architect etc) type. (thunder = enlightenment, surprise, shock, sudden)

Not sure I agree with this though.

lightofreason said:
Emotionally, the focus in you comes out of rejection/rejecting (all part of the protector focus) and for her the focus is on surprise etc Is she cerebral? She lacks trust in her self overall. (given this, there is an attraction to isolation when stressed, run n hide, and a degree of emotional "avarice", can appear to be insensitive)

I do have a fear of rejection. It is something I have dealt with on many occasions and something I do worry about. I think she is the same too. When you ask if she is cerebral, if you mean using intelligence rather than emotion I would say, probabaly not. she does however lack trust in herself overall as you suggested. She has very low self esteem and worries endlessly about trivial things. She takes on other peoples problems and worries herself to death about them. She is very insecure. She is a somewhat lonesome person, in that she doesnt have many friends (one really who she doesnt see that often) and she isnt very close to her family. Although she talks to her mother on the phone regularly, she rarely sees her family.

lightofreason said:
Based on what you have given, the common ground can be 'joy' oriented (10) or 'heaven' oriented (01). Intense stuff. Both reflect Artisan dynamics - risk taking, independence driven, can be too excitable - and expensive.

Well this relationship was very short in comparison to any other I have had. A mere three months, however it was very intense. You know when you have an image of your ideal partner? what they look like, act like, what their morals and values are? Well she was everything I had dreamed of, since I can remember. She felt the same way about me or so she led me to believe. People who seen us together, including my family thought we had been together for years. I put more into that relationship, emotionally than I had put into any relationship I have ever had. Including one of 6 years. It was a brief time chronologically, but emotionally it was a lifetime. Or so it seemed.

lightofreason said:
SO - if you want her back she needs to 'see' something that elicits resonance and a 'need' to come back, a 'want' to come back. OTOH, if you see little in her other than lust for her - then forget it and move on (yeh I know, difficult to do! ;-))

How can she see anything if we never see each other? or do you not mean this literally? For me there was definitely more to it than lust. Like i say I have been in a number of long term relationships and never once felt the connection I have felt here. I have been in the position to marry two different women. One of whom I was seeing for three and half years, the other for two years. I never married any of them because I never wanted to at the time. This is the first time I have been in a relationship that I felt completely comfortable in. We didnt have sex, we made love, which again, i think is a first for me. I wanted to be with her all the time, even after love making, which sounds incredibly lame but in previous relationships it was more a case of, right, thats that over with, what can I do now? Wheras with this woman, I just wanted to stay with her and hold her. More information than you require I am sure but I am painting a picture of it being more than lust, in my eyes. For her love making wasnt really a big issue because she was quite scared of intimacy, quite no sexual and not very confident. This could be down to age and/or previous abuse issues, which I think I mentioned before.

lightofreason said:
Do you understand emotional transference? The intent is to elicit a resonance of an emotion in the other person where the emotion originates in you.
Chris.

I am not sure if this is something I can do Chris, unless you are talking about if and when we reconnect?


I thank you so much for your time and assistance with this. It is most appreciated. I do want this girl back in my life more than anything but I wont force the issue with her. Her happiness is very important to me and if she is happier alone or without me then so be it.

I dont wish to make hard work for myself and fight an uphill battle if we ever do get back together. I just want a harmonious life with a girl I adore.

I will try not to consult the oracle for a while now because I fear messing things up for myself and her.

I hope you dont mind my asking questions? I must admit your science is very confucing but fascinating nontheless.

Kind Regards

simon
 

simon_uk

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Autumn

I know you said I should take a break for now but I just felt like I understood your question more so I inquired one last time. I promise this will be the last for a while now. I asked

In the long run (assuming she comes back to me) Would this relationship be beneficial to my emotional well being or detrimental.

The result 1.1.5.6 Changing to 32

I have read the results myself and to me they seem quite positive but would value yours or any other input.

Like I say I wont inquire anymore because I dont want to muddy the waters anymore or ruin any chance I may have.

Thank you for your time and caring

Simon
 
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lightofreason

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simon_uk said:
....I dont wish to make hard work for myself and fight an uphill battle if we ever do get back together. I just want a harmonious life with a girl I adore.

I will try not to consult the oracle for a while now because I fear messing things up for myself and her.

I hope you dont mind my asking questions? I must admit your science is very confucing but fascinating nontheless.

Kind Regards

simon

Now 5AM here so time for some sleep! Take care. No problem with the questions and the confusion should keep you occupied.

BTW - the emotion 'adore' - you adore her like.... X .. to .. Y? .... I ask since the emotion requires time to develop, it needs a history else it can 'overwhelm' and in so doing be misinterpreted. (this relates to the age issues you mentioned)

Chris.
 

autumn

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simon_uk said:
YOu said in a previous post that I could change the future? How would this happen? Do you mean by keep asking the same questions or by my emotional state?
Well, of course- if you believe in free will, then each time you make a choice you change your future. Say you plan to drive to the dentist, but instead of turning left, you choose to turn right, so you end up somewhere else. If it was very important to you to go to the dentist, then you will have experiences from taking the right turn that are uncomfortable or painful (say you hit a pothole, or your teeth start hurting), and you will end up back where you started. But your choices always change the future. In this analogy of going to dentist, your choices were to go there by the most direct route or to try to avoid going to the dentist by making wrong turns. Right now, you're going through something necessary but uncomfortable (like going to the dentist), and your choices are to take the most direct route there (accept the present moment), or to fight it and to start taking wrong turns (by obsessing, withdrawing from other people, trying to manipulate her to come back). If you fight what you don't want in this experience, then you circumvent the most direct path. Your readings are giving you a picture of where you are right now, and what's intended for you in your most direct path. Luckily, you are being shown something good. So, you don't to start making wrong turns right now.

simon_uk said:
Quote:
Originally Posted by lightofreason
Do you understand emotional transference? The intent is to elicit a resonance of an emotion in the other person where the emotion originates in you.
Chris.
I am not sure if this is something I can do Chris, unless you are talking about if and when we reconnect?
What is this Jedi Mind trick thing? Is this really necessary? Is this something you passed out a Star Wars convention to advise those with pocket protectors how to pick up chicks? How about just what the hexagrams mean, and how the trigrams go back to the bonding binding stuff, so he can gain a focal point in his mind? I am sorry, you have to be very patient with Chris. He has good information underneath this *stuff*.

simon_uk said:
Autumn
I know you said I should take a break for now but I just felt like I understood your question more so I inquired one last time. I promise this will be the last for a while now. I askedIn the long run (assuming she comes back to me) Would this relationship be beneficial to my emotional well being or detrimental. The result 1.1.5.6 Changing to 32
That is a good reading. I want to say this:

Jesed offered to give you a more in-depth intepretation of the situation in one week. The answers that he can provide will go to the heart of the situation and provide timeframes. It seems like half the time when he says, I recommend you ask for a diagnosis of the situation to people, they refuse to do it. My daughter's father had taken my life completely off track a few months ago. Jesed did a reading that pointed that out to me. It wasn't him telling me what was wrong- I saw it through what I believe to be spiritual guidance. Having clarity about that situation was like having a bad tooth pulled. It dramatically changed my direction. The only way I was able to have that clarity was by opening up the question and asking for a "general diagnosis". If I had insisted on asking my own questions, like so many people insist on doing, instead of allowing myself to be completley open to general guidance, then I wouldn't have seen it. It was the right time for me to fully learn a lesson, and I was able to do it, and it feels like years have passed in just a few weeks.

Not that my life is perfect- but I see now what I did not see before about his effect on my life. He never wanted to be my daughter's father, and I forced him to be, reasoning to myself that I needed his support. The amount of money that I have gotten from him in support is worthless compared to the independence I gave up by allowing him to have a place in our lives as her father. He never should have been in a position to influence or direct our lives. By seeing that, though, I was able to free myself.
 

simon_uk

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Thank you for your reply Autumn,

I thought my reading was very good also but then I dont always see the true picture of the hexagram as you well know.

Thank you for sharing your story with me, it is quite inspirational. I am glad you feel more clarity now.

I must admit over the past four weeks we have been apart I have spent a lot of time on relationship advice boards. It has been somewhat beneficial but I have gained far more clarity and understanding in my day here than I have in almost a month on the relationship boards.

Perhaps because I am getting some information that I can work with and adhere to?

On the relationship boards people are advising me to leave it maybe 6 to 8 weeks and if I dont hear from her then I could try to reconnect. I know from past breakups that doing the chasing when somebody has left you does nothing more than force them further away. That is why with this relationship I have not done that. I am too long in the tooth for game playing and this lady is far too special for me to lose permanently through my own insecurities and haste. It is selfish and I wouldnt want her to come back to me out of guilt, pity or pressure. If she is to come back I want her to do it by her own free will. It is the only way I know she is sincere, in my eyes.

I will take advice from all you people here and I would be honoired if Jesed would do a reading for me.

I have tried to contact a reader from the listings, he is based in Manchester, England, where I live. A guy named Mick Frankel. I wonder if it is worth having a private consultation if he is still active?

For now, I will live for the moment and have faith in the oracle.

Just out of interest, I Ching aside, I have always thought she may come back to me because we seemed just so perfect. She always told me how special I was and how lucky she felt to have me. Even up until the day before she left. I told her I couldnt be a better boyfriend if I tried and she said do you think I dont know that? do you think I am stupid? She knows my value. I personally think she just got spooked and panicked. Which is what she told me. My only fear if any is that she doesnt love me enough, she told my sister the day after we split that part of her loves me but she is not madly in love as it is too soon to be. It kinda goes against everything she told me when we were together but I have to accept that for now and hope that there is enough love to bring her back.

Thank you so much

SImon
 
L

lightofreason

Guest
autumn said:
What is this Jedi Mind trick thing? Is this really necessary? Is this something you passed out a Star Wars convention to advise those with pocket protectors how to pick up chicks? How about just what the hexagrams mean, and how the trigrams go back to the bonding binding stuff, so he can gain a focal point in his mind? I am sorry, you have to be very patient with Chris. He has good information underneath this *stuff*.

Autumn, IMHO You are here showing a degree of 'lack of knowledge' that I think needs to be 'fixed' if you want to get seriously involved in understanding, working with, emotions and the unconscious through working with the Emotional IC etc

I have had experience of passive transference as well as read up on the more active form. For the latter I STRONGLY suggest you read:

Jung, C.G. (1969) "The Psychology of the Transference" Princton

Unlike Freud who limited his pespective on transference, Jung was well aware of its 'natural' nature - and once you have experienced the passive form one appreciates what Jung was on about - although he was a bit naieve re mirror neurons and basic emotion dynamics at the neurological level where we are now validating the experiences of Jung, Freud etc but also reassessing their interpretations of those experiences.

ANY form of BONDING will include issues of transference, projection etc. The transference will start with a projection of seeing someone 'in' someonelse (or in creating that image in one's mind and interacting with it).

That act of projection in reality (between two 'real' humans) will include the emotive element appearing on the face of the projector and that will be detected by the projectee. If there is no history presented to the projectee then their consciousness will try to interpret the emotion and, since there is no history, will use imagination. Uh Oh! The initial transference can be subliminal in form and so, if the 'look' is repeated over time the transference will continue until the emotion will 'suddenly' appear in the psyche of the projectee in relation to the projector "for no reason".

Howerever, due to the lack of history about the 'look', so the emotion is experienced in an overwhelming form - it is 'context free' and so unconditional in affect and effect. It can become destabilising, destructive, even if it is positive (love, adoration etc).

At the same time the transference process can be subtle, controlled, and so allow for establishment of rapport, or its re-establishment. Its roots are usually in immediate family experiences across the sexes (mother-son, father-daughter, brother-sister) but the mirror neuron stuff indicates it covers more than that where a projection of the family relationship elicits the transference of emotions to establish that relationship with a stranger (or psychotherapist - the more commonly reports event) or collective member outside of immediate family.

Note we are dealing with mirroring and so 'opposites' and so yin/yang dynamics. These can include psychic relationships (and so allow also for brother-brother, daughter-daughter etc - IOW we move to generic forms of male-male, male-female, female-female in that the psyche can be male-female even if the somatic relationship is male-male or female-female)

The dynamics of the 'look' and interaction with infants can lead to persona development biases that come out in personas. This gets into issues of the 'gaze' as covered in child psychology/psychiatry etc where un intentional transference of some negative affect, usually but not solely from mother to child, can become 'etched' into emotional experience/expression etc - IOW passive transference has taken place.

For a good coverage of persona development in a neurosis aspect from the enneagram perspective see:

Naranjo. C., (1994) "Character and Neurosis : An Integrative View" Gateways/IDHHB

There is also material from the MBTI but it is more 'positive' in approach and so covers up neurosis etc other than in specialist material.

Note that the enneagram and MBTI cover the particular within which we then develop the singular where THAT perspective is covered in psychotherapy texts such as Jung etc etc etc

This is not 'lite' stuff but working with the IC we can delve into it without being too overwhelmed by it - and in so doing add a dimension to the 'every day' use of the IC ;-)

For coverage on development of the SELF see:

Kircher, T., & David, A., (2003) "The SELF in Neuroscience and Psychiatry" CUP

For a mix of Jung and current neuroscience see such texts as:

Wilkinson, M., (2006) "Coming Into Mind : The mind-brain relationship : a Jungian clinical perspective" Routledge

Chris.
 
L

lightofreason

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Just to add more re mirror neurons here is a recent article:

Mirrors In The Mind: New Studies Elucidate How The Brain Reflects Onto Itself The Actions Of Others

In three new independent studies, researchers have deepened our understanding of the remarkable ability of some specialized areas of the brain to activate both in response to one's own actions and in response to sensory cues (such as sight) of the same actions perpetrated by another individual.

This ability is thought to be based in the activity of so-called mirror neurons, which have been hypothesized to contribute to skills such as empathy, socialized behavior, and language acquisition. The new findings contribute to our understanding of how conceptually related instances of language and action, and sound and action, are linked in the brain, and how the brain distinguishes actions perpetrated by "self" and by "other."

The studies are reported by three independent research groups: Lisa Aziz-Zadeh (now at USC) and colleagues at the University of Parma, Italy, UCLA; Christian Keysers and colleagues at the University of Groningen, The Netherlands and UC Berkeley; and Simone Schütz-Bosbach and colleagues at University College London, the Max Planck Institute for Human Cognitive and Brain Sciences in Germany, and the University of Rome. The papers appear in the September 19th issue of Current Biology, published by Cell Press.

Mirror neurons were first identified in the cortex of macaque monkeys: A particular subset of these neurons fire when, for example, a monkey picks up a banana, and when the monkey observes a human picking up a banana in a similar way. Mirror-neuron activity appears to be highly specific, such that a somewhat different set of mirror neurons would fire if a banana were poked, for example, rather than picked up. There is also evidence that mirror neurons link actions not only with visual stimuli, but also with other types of sensory cues. Technical limitations have impeded identification of individual mirror neurons in humans, but brain-imaging studies support the existence of these neurons.

In the new work from Lisa Aziz-Zadeh and colleagues, researchers used a brain-imaging technique to investigate how literal phrases describing actions performed by the mouth, hand, or foot influenced cortical neurons that are activated by the sight of actions being performed by mouth, hand, or foot.

The researchers found a significant concordance between activation of certain cortical areas in response to linguistic descriptions and observed actions relating to the different body parts carrying out the actions. For example, when individuals read literal phrases such as "biting the peach" or "biting the banana," some brain areas activated that were also stimulated by videos of fruit being bitten. Similar findings were obtained for hand actions (for example, grasping a pen) and foot actions (for example, pressing a piano pedal). Together, the findings suggest that mirror neurons play a key role in the mental "re-enactment" of actions when linguistic descriptions of those actions are conceptually processed.

In the study reported by Christian Keysers, Valeria Gazzola, and colleagues, researchers investigated a different question: how mirror neurons might contribute to our understanding of auditory cues. Past work had shown that in monkeys, so-called auditory mirror neurons activate when monkeys perform certain actions and when they hear the same actions being performed. In the new work, the researchers report new evidence for an auditory mirror system existing in humans as well.

When subjects were presented with sounds corresponding to mouth actions (such as crunching candy, kissing, or emptying a soda can with a straw) and hand actions (such as ripping a sheet of paper or opening a zipper), brain areas are activated that overlap with areas activated by the execution of those actions by the subjects themselves. Within this area, a subregion was preferentially activated when mouth actions were either heard or performed, and another subregion was preferentially activated when hand actions were heard or performed. In addition, the researchers found that most of this mirror system was also responsive to the sight of these actions being performed, suggesting that a particular area of the brain can respond similarly to execution of an action and its representation in different types of sensory cues.

Intriguingly, the researchers also found that of the subjects taking part in the experiment, those that scored higher on tests for empathy activated the system more strongly than those who scored lower on the empathy evaluation. While the relationship between motor mirror systems and empathy skills is far from clear, these findings are consistent with the existence of a link between the two.

Though mirror neurons appear to relate--and, potentially, equate--the actions of oneself with those of another, we are in fact highly adept at distinguishing our own actions from those of someone else. The basis for this distinction is explored in the study reported by Simone Schütz-Bosbach, Patrick Haggard, and colleagues, who used an established method--the so-called rubber-hand illusion--for experimentally manipulating the sense of body ownership. This approach was useful because without such illusion, it is difficult to identify meaningful differences in how the brain responds to actions performed by oneself or others--the two scenarios involve significant differences in, for example, visual viewpoint and familiarity, and other sensory inputs.

Past work had used the rubber-hand illusion to show that when a rubber hand is seen being stroked at the same time that the viewer's own (unseen) hand is synchronously stroked, the viewer feels that the rubber hand becomes part of his or her body.

In the new work, the researchers used this illusion--though in this case, the rubber hand was replaced by a real hand of an experimenter--to control whether a subject experienced that an experimenter's hand was the subject's own or not. This allowed the researchers to investigate whether finger movements made by the experimenter's hand were able to facilitate the subject's own finger movements--this facilitation was measured by the ability of benign stimulation of a particular brain region to promote motor signals (corresponding to those finger movements) in the subject's own hand.

The researchers found that such facilitation did occur, but, curiously, it occurred when the illusion was not effective, and subjects felt that the experimenter's hand was not their own. Observing actions interpreted as one's own tended to suppress motor facilitation. Taken together, the findings indicate that the observation of others facilitates the motor system. The authors point out that the findings also suggest that the neural mechanisms that underlie action observation are intrinsically "social"--that the neural mechanisms map the actions of others onto one's own body, rather than initially treating all observed action (whether perpetrated by one's self or by others) as essentially neutral in ownership. These findings inform our understanding of the motor system's role in social cognition, and support previous suggestions that the motor system may have strongly influenced developments in human social evolution.

Source: Cell Press
http://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2006/09/060918165714.htm
 

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