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Biting Trough

frank

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Hi all,

I was wandering what you make of this...

I received an answer from the Yi about my job and the careermoves I should take or not within it, as I?m confuced in taking them. I received 21, line 6, towards 51... Something is about to shake me awake I guess...

It?s a long story to tell what happened in the past 20 years I work for the same boss aready so I will not tell you that. Because I wander the next move I asked the Yi about what to do and it came up with this. I know I have to let go of something, well at least the past and what happened I guess (as line 6 is making 23 when it?s a YANG line), and it has to do with not listning very well... I am a bit off in this as I was hoping for a more ?concrete? answer, and now I only know that I have to bite trough something... Is that biting trough old issues? Biting trough new opportunities? Where do I not listen to, or have others not been listning? The past is definitly about not listning at both sides in very different ocasions, but what does it tell me here? I know it should not scare the ?bleep? out of me (51 is just shaking, not letting go of precious things), but what is the Yi in practice trying to tell me?

As I?m a bit confused I was wandering what you can see in this... Any comment is apreciated.

Hug,
Frank
 

hilary

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Hi Frank, just a quick note...

In my experience, 21.6 usually doesn't want to hear. There is just too much 51: too much shock and upheaval, too much novelty. 21.6 can't take all this at once, and so he actually punishes himself and blocks it out.

Does this sound familiar at all? Is there some possibility you're not considering because it's just all too much?

If it doesn't sound familiar, this feels like a moment for a followup question. How about "What am I not hearing?" ?
 
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bruce

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?What ever happens to people who die?
Can?t seem to grasp it, as hard as I try.
It?s like a song I can hear playing right in my ear
that I can?t sing, and I can?t help listening.? ~ Jackson Browne

Hi Frank,

While I agree with Hilary that 21.6 is most often a matter of unwillingness to hear, I?ve also experienced it a couple times when I knew that what ever it was that was disturbing, I was incapable of hearing the message. It was literally beyond my grasp. Of course on some level, there may still be a deeper unwillingness to face the answer, due to long-term conditioning or some such thing, which desensitizes the senses that are needed to hear.

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frank

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Hi Hillary,

That would be a great idea, a follow up question, as I start to get an idea about what the Yi mented, but there is still much doubt, and I definitly am not hearing what I probably should hear (or perhaps see).

Hi Bruce,

Great Smiley! There is definitly something I can?t grasp sofar, although I start to get an idea... It could mean something in the way of the story about that man that was searching for his glasses and he had them on all along :-D...

But I will wait and see if someone comes up before I dig any further into this.

Thank you both very much!

Hug,
Frank
 
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bruce

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Frank,

I understand your frustration. The more rare times when I just couldn't understand, no matter how hard I tried, were hugely frustrating. All I could do with line 6 during those times was to regain my composure and wait for more time to pass, with the hopes that the obstruction will clear up; which from the sounds of it, is what you're doing.

If I understand correctly that you've worked for this same "boss" for 20 years, that could easily have the effect of losing your ears to certain messages of opportunity and such. It takes you out of circulation, for one, and the motivation to grow beyond your shoes, secondly.

Perhaps the shock of this might cause you to determine fair consideration of new opportunities. That consideration alone may unblock your career pathway, even should you decide to stay where you are.
 

dobro p

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Yes, what Hilary said and what Bruce put at the bottom of his post sums it up. When you draw 21.6 you gotta ask: "What is it I'm not wanting to hear right now?" And it's tough as hell overcoming the resistance to seeing it or hearing it, FOR THE VERY REASON that you're covering your eyes and your ears. You don't want to hear it. But that's exactly what it is time you took a look at.

From where I'm sitting, I don't see it as Bruce does - I don't think you draw 21.6 when you're simply not capable of seeing whatever it is you need to see. I think you draw 21.6 when you DON'T WANT to look, but you do have the capacity to overcome that resistance now.
 
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micheline

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i think it could be a combination of both...

i have days , weeks, where, because of stressors on the job and elsewhere, I cant read my email, my books go untouched, and I feel incapable of absorbing anything, esp things that would ordinarily help me to relax. I defintely feel shocked and mired, and I cant /wont allow any additional stimuli to knock me over the edge.

So my task then is to untie the knots..relax and let go..then the cangue can come off my ears....as soon as I am relaxed, I can absorb again and hear and listen....
 
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jesed

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Hi Frank

Just in case the comment could be useful

1.- First, as some previous times, I would suggest a longer path: a "dialogue" from general to concrete doubts. In this case:
a) Global Diagnosis of my Time
b) General Diagnosis of my Labor Time
c) Diagnosis of my concrete situation in my actual job
d) What is your judgment about thake movement X
e) What is your judgment about thake movement Y... (i guess you already have in mind one, 2 or several posible "careermoves")

2.- Any case, about your answer:
a) The principal answer is in the judgement and the image: take a decision; make up your mind; confront a traitor or some one that is an obstacle to you; even quit the job if necesary. Bu to take your decison, you need a combination of clarity and energy: clarity without energy is useless, energy without clarity is risky.
b) Yor goal should be face the conmotion (related hex 51) to survive it. Conmotion make us feel afraid, but some times is the only way to renewal a stocked situation. When we are stubborn, the life sends us a commotion to correct our path
c) To achieve that, the particular advice is the changing line. I mean: the line is not the principal answer, but a particual advice: if you refuse to hear the reality now, the thunder may hit your body soon.
d) Notice that the cause of the line 21.6 is in 57.6 thinking too much without make up your mind had leaded you to inaction

So:
You are facing an stocked situation in your job and need to take a decision to solve it; you had been thinking about it for so long but this is only leading you to confusion and inaction, because you don't make up your mind. If you remain in this doubt state of mind, you could suffer a harm conmotion. But, the good new: you still had time to avoid the thunder hit your body. Inner energy and outer clarity is the way to bit trough this.

Best wishes
 
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bruce

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Micheline, yes! an overload can have a deafening affect. That is precisely it. The more you struggle and pull, the tighter bound you become, until you can?t hear anything anymore. The 6th line often points to excess. In the case of biting through an obstacle, there is such a thing as trying too hard.

More often than not 21 does refer to mere stubbornness and/or denial, or at least it begins that way (feet in stocks). But once it reaches the extreme, you are unable to hear. I highly doubt ancient Chinese prisoners were given keys to their cangue.
 
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micheline

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Yes, Bruce! Later I was thinking about this and I thought it is also (maybe) a perfect line for describing ADD....and I sometimes suspect I have the adult version of that....because I short-circuit when there is too much stimuli, and I literally can't allow anything else in, or at best, feel unable to process any more information.

At least in my "personal files" this line will now take on that possibility...(others may disagree!) For me , it is a freeing interpretation, since I have always seen this line as a slap on the wrist...but when I am feeling 21.6, I need my own compassion, not more self-flagellation!

Its a bit like what Hilary said above, but a little different too...HOwever her comment really turned on the lightbulb for me.

Frank, sorry to hi-jack your thread with all this banter.
 
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bruce

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Sorta biting through the biting through?

Interesting too is the fan yao, 51.6, which LiSe renders:

"The shock is twining, twining, looking around in terror, terror. To set things right: pitfall. The shock does not reach oneself; it reaches one's neighbor, no fault. A marriage brings talk."

Best at such times to find a distraction and forget the biting through, until calm is restored.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Bruce


Yes, the effect of the line (fan yao) helps to understand better the line; but the way I see, the consecuence is not "forget the biting through"; on the contrarie: the effect of not act according with the time of biting through is that the thunder may reach the consultant. That's why I wrote about line 21.6 "if you refuse to hear the reality now, the thunder may hit your body soon."

Line 51.6 is something like: the thunder hadn't reach you yet, but it would if you don't save yourself soon... you xcan save yourself of been hit by the thunder if you act (better: non-act) with serenity and clarity. That's why I wrote: "But, the good new: you still had time to avoid the thunder hit your body. Inner energy and outer clarity is the way to bit trough this"

If one take not only the effect of the line (fan yao) but also the cause of it, you can tell a story where the consultant had been thinking too much without make up his/her mind and that had leaded his/her to inaction (cause of the line 57.6); because of that, in this present moment is like a prisioner that cann't hear the reality anymore(21.6); if this continue, he/she may be hit by a conmotion (effect line, 51.6). But, if he take a decision, with both energy and clarity/serenity (judgement and image of 21), the thunder won't hit her body.
 
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bruce

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Jesed, yes, I can understand your interpretation, but I don?t see it limited to that in every case.

The liberation Micheline spoke of I believe is an example of liquidating rigid concepts of punitive results from every imperfect act we commit. I view that as a sign of maturity.
 
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micheline

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dear jesed, I dont know how you got 57.6 in this mix? could you explain?

also, not to belabor the interpretations, I also feel the fan yao advises that although the neighbors will be shocked and maybe gossiping and demanding Frank take some course of action, the action of line 51.6 advises withdrawing to find calm and composure, in spite of the clamoring.

It's like a "everybody's talking at me" kinda situation.."can't hear a word they're sayin"

If he withdraws to find composure, he remains free from mistake and injury...even tho the excited others may be displeased....but only then can he begin to hear the right action, to hear what he needs to hear. the aim of 51.6 is to withdraw from conflict and thus save yourself.

it might seem that Frank is overloaded with possibilities both within and without.... calm down to be able to hear clearly may be the best message
 
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bruce

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"it might seem that Frank is overloaded with possibilities both within and without.... calm down to be able to hear clearly may be the best message"

This is how I'm seeing it too. Yet, there is another possibility: being lulled into complacency through force of habit. In this case, Yi would refer to a different reason for offering 21, like, saying "wake up! put on your ears and hear the possibilities!"

What say you, Frank?
 

frank

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Hi all,

Thank you Dobro, Micheline, Jesed, Bruce and Hillary for your responses.

I have overthought this line and I might have an insight here. I started my ?career? in the goverment as an employee working in the archives, and because of that did some course in that direction. It was not exactly what I was looking for, but as long as I?m walking on this planet, I guess I do know better what I don?t like in a job then what I do, so I desited to take the opportunity and studied into the direction of archives. They even promised me a promotion when I should succeed. I did! And then they draw the promotion back! I was furious and for years I did not want anything to do with the courses I took, and not even searching for another job into that direction with another boss, as it was a course you can only work for in goverments, and I didn?t want to move...

Years went by, I just did my job, never promoted, never higher goals and more money, and I deciced to put just more energy into my hobbies and saw the job as the sponsor for that.... I?m not that ambitious and am easier lazy then tired. I know that is not a very great characteristic of me.

In those 20 years I sometimes worked for shorter periods on other departments within the goverment and I just did what I had to do, because I did not had an idea of what doing otherwise and I definitly was not in the mood for another time in archives... Irony is that I work for 20 years already in just that...

They (the bosses in the goverment, my bosses) realy helped me a lot in trying to find my way and I did a lot in training, sending letters, talks, etc, but overall I continued doing what I was doing for many years. There where years that I just liked that, but then I let myself stured up by people who wanted results and where looking at me, and my many comments I made, in a way like ?when the hell will he do something??. They where right, and I was in a mixture of just stay where I was and feeling more and more insecure to change. I?m 38 now and big changes in my career becomes a rare thing to do... But...

In the last months I had a breaktrough by finaly getting an opportunity to move somewhere else, but only for 6 months and with the deal that after that period I can return to the old job... for security-reasons... Ironacly i?m in just that department where I should have gone 15 till 20 years ago after succeeding the course in archives as it is a common thing to do in this kind of job I?m in these days... At last I change jobs, after so many years, and ironicly, again, I ended up in the direction I tryed to avoid for years... In one way avoiding things that could have made me feel alright, but stuborn because when they desited not to promote me I thought then that the whole archiveworld was not for me... The last ten years in a hobby I even made my own archive in creating a bibliogaphy in my own appartement where I have stored more then 1000 books... so there is still the archive structure in my bones...

Now I feel regret in doing that. Seeing in one way my stuborness and anxiety for change as a loss, and starting to become aware of the opportunity to start all over again after 20 years, which in one way makes me a bit excited... but there is also another way that is in doubt... There is still an urge to stay in the goverment I?ve been working for so many years as I know a lot of people here and I?m afraid what will happen if I change to some other company and will be fired or something like that... (anxiety for the unknown I developed years ago and still own...), and there are questions about the future in archive work as everything starts to become storred up digitaly... There will be a lot of less work in some years from now... Will it be worth the effort again to put much energy, time and money into something they (my bosses) promosed me years ago and when I?m finished again the whole ?archive? work is changed into a direction I was educated for? I become aware now that I do not want to put to much energy in the course because of promotional reasons, but just to get a job I like...

After years of struggle, finding my way in jobs and hobbies in what I like to do, I once made the discicion to stay and besides that to start my own business as counselor, taking Yi consultations for people, among other stuff, and by trying to search for a balance between what I wanted, what others wanted of me, and a balance in energylevel in a job on one way and free time for doing stuff the other... The choise felt great, but the outcome was not succesfull (sofare). And there is sometimes still the desire to restart, among other desires...

Even now I doubt how far I should go in putting energy in courses, new jobs, energy in learning new things, new opportunities in getting at least some more money, etc at one hand, but trying to be busy with my hobbies, and the Yi is a very important one of them, on the other...

I use this word a lot here, but it just the way I see it, but... the irony now is that as long as I?m busy trying to be stuborn in not dealing with more archivework I did already, because of the missed promotion, the more I?m getting involved, as it is a road I just can?t get out off... and as long as I told people I wanted more free time to be busy with things like the I Ching and writing books, and having all the time in the world, I did not put the effort in to that...
I keep on walking in circles, and start to become aware that what I have been looking for for years was already that what I was doing all along!

I think the 21.6 is telling me that I should realy start to hear my inner voice who in one way is very judgemental about the job I take, the people who are in there, and the ego who wants more and more, and sometimes has to walk on toes for that, and in another way is just feeling great in going to an everyday job, just doing my everyday stuff, having a lot of time to be busy with the stuff I want to be busy with, etc... and still there is something missing... There are days that I think it?s in the work that is needed to be done in the job, and then I want another job... days later I?m satisfied again... There are days that I think it is in the relationship I do not have and I wish myself very much, and sometimes I just hang out over I Ching books on a saturdaynight till 5 am... and love it... There is always something missing...

Nowadays, as I?m in a new opportunity in this job I start to wander what to do now, and then 21.6 showed up... In one way I?m not even close to anger, and I?m not furious in any way, but reading the judgement and line 6 of 21 you might think the Yi is, and it wants justice... Mmm, still wandering... I feel frustration still, as it is obvious when you read all this, but I had every opportunity to talk about that with my bosses, and I did! Does the Yi mean there is still more justice to me made? There is no deniale (wow is that english?), and again I talked a lot about this with a lot of friends, collegues, even a therapist in the past years, and I?m not very much in the mood of keeping myself busy with only that... And altough it?s just for 6 months I finaly made a move towards another job, with other people and surroundings which tasts for the better... Ofcourse I?m a bit busy about the idea what comes after these 6 months, and I have some ideas, as getting into archivecourses again, perhaps only working in temporary projects into the goverment, as balance against 20 years having 1 steady job, etc... Not that much, but I?m busy with ideas.

I do not remember Jesed how you received 57.6. although you have explained it here on the forum, but in the Yi of Hatcher, in his own words he is just explaining this (with the archive job in the back of my mind...): ?He desites he will not be fooled twice?...). Geee...:-D

I guess I could take a follow up question about what I?m not hearing here, as Hillary suggested...

Are there things becoming more clear now?

And Micheline, it?s OK to hijack my post for a short notice :-D

Thank you all for your kind responses, and I do recognise things written, but have to read a couple of times before making conclusions...

Oh, and Jesed, thank you for the suggestion of those questions... I will not ask them for now, as writting this down is already making things a bit more clear.

Well, This is a very long post, and I?m fully aware that sometimes I write a bit off, perhaps... I hope you still can follow the story in big lines... Thank you again for your responses, and I hope things are making more sense now.

Hug,
Frank
 
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bruce

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Hi Frank,

This statement jumped out at me concerning your 21.6: "as if is a road I just can?t get out of". I think anyone who has spent two decades working in a government desk job would be apprehensive about leaving a secure situation and venturing out into something more personally gratifying. I think you're a brave guy for being willing to even consider it.

Here's my question to you: Does it seem that since you've been opening to the possibilities in your future that line 6 may have passed, that you are now hearing the sound of your own drummer more clearly?
 

frank

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Hi Bruce,

I would have given an answer earlier but in some strange way the post did not proceed to this forum. It's a bit later now today and I write again...

I know I'm a brave guy even considering the things I talk about here, but that does not make it easier, and especialy when you get an hexagram about not hearing what is told to me... or something in that style :-D. And yes, I do hear drums...

I asked a follow-up question about "what am I not hearing?", and I received hex. 62, line 4, towards 15... In a final nerve to put things into action and finaly getting to another job where some new aproaches come into my life after dealing with bosses who are double in ther understanding in getting me to training on way but not listing to signals I produce the other, the Yi is comming up with this! That's definitly something I do not want to hear :-D! I do not want to slow down and fall a sleep and I know that these 6 months the job is great because it's temporary, so when it should not be that fantastic I can always go back, and it's all new and exiting the other way too...

There is a lot in my life I feel anger for from time to time, and I think the Yi is only trying to tell me not to be overwhelmed (as line 4 as changing line ONLY it makes 16, enthousiasm) by new opportunities, but on the other hand I have so much a feeling that I have to hold myself in in one way, as that because of the 6 months I do not get to learn the more important stuff, because I will be gone again once I know these things. And for once I do not want to involve myself into new studies as long as it is not shure that I will have a job in it... Vert mixed feelings, and then the Yi tells me this... Damn!

I know I have my limits, but is it so much to ask what to do next when you only look to something more satisfying and bringing in some more money. I'm not looking for a job where I would be boss of a department, no, I just want to have a nice department, with nice collegues and more responsibilty then I have now... Is that so much to ask? On the other hand I will not put energy into something like a new study, some people want me to pick up, because I have to get the sureness of getting an poortunity to do something with it, and where I'm standing now is not enough, I want more... Getting hexagram 62 gives me the idea that the Yi is warning me for to goals that are to high... but how can a goal be that to high when you already have been busy looking for years already and people start to have 'expectations'... I know I have to go for my own things and NOT for the expectations of someone else, but I need some of them to get there... And thats frustrating too... that you need people to get somewhere and they do not believe you, follow you, have there own agenda's and still want me to do things..... Perhaps that is what the Yi is telling me in 21... It's not fair and judgements should me made... Emotional judgements as the opportunities to give entrances to do things... , well bla bla bla... :-D...

I hope you get my point...

I still have to figure out what the Yi is trying to tell me, because I am not aware that I do not WANT to hear, and that I miss something hearing... It could be that signals are already there to hear, and I do not catch them. Perhaps the Yi is also trying to just ell me this: "Well, my sweet Frank, your opportunities are not in movement, but in listing and let go... "

I still have a lot of ambitions, which are not that different then years ago, and not only in my everyday job, but also in other parts of my life. I know I have done a lot about things and that I am not a victim of any kind, but being independent of people, bosses and others who do not even care to take some trouble trying to know me a little better and helping me, while I also should have done things just for the sake of doing them, dispite the comments, it is very frustrated not getting that what you want... Things do not take it's course for me these days, and when I start to be a bit more enthousiastic about something like a new job, I get hexagram 61, line 4 towards 15 as an answer about what I'm not hearing. And when I could or should I knew what to do next then (21.6 in an earlier answer).

And o yes, I do hear drums....

Thanks Bruce.

Hug,
Frank
 
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micheline

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just as an aside, I too tried to post on this thread yesterday and received a strange Internal Error message//also I cannot access the keyword/date search...same error message..seeing if this goes thru
 

hilary

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I'd run out of server space on my hosting account. I've been deleting some logs, and it should be OK now.
 

hilary

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Hm - I get a 500 error on the search, though. Contacting my web host now...
 
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bruce

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Hi Frank,

Hmm, 62.4-15. Again there is the impression of trying too hard, as what Micheline and I were in agreement on in regard to 21.6. But 62.4 seems more gentle about it, not passing by or getting ahead of yourself. And 15 also seeks to equalize extremes on both sides.

?I know I have my limits, but is it so much to ask what to do next when you only look to something more satisfying and bringing in some more money.?

I doubt there are many here who wouldn?t agree with your sentiment regarding the stern appearance of 21.6. I think a key word in all this, which Chris introduced to this board some time ago, is the word: exaggeration. The images in Yi cover a wide and deep dynamic range of intensity, and the same line could mean ?Take it easy? to ?hey! wake up; this is really serious business!? Which volume level one interprets for a given question/answer requires sensitivity to what is real and applicable to what is imagined, hoped or feared. Laughin? a little here about 51 as the relating hexagram, because 21.6 certainly can feel like a big shock. 62.4-15, however, implies the lesser intensity than the way 21.6 was felt. It does get ones attention though.

My suggestion is to keep your forward aspirations alive but don?t get ahead of yourself.

Best to you, Frank.
 
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micheline

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I had trouble understanding all of your post, Frank....but upon reading it, I almost felt that your 21.6 was saying "the answer to your quest is hitting you over the head, yelling LOUD and clear"

it seems that you belong in archives!!! is that the six months position? You are not lazy, is anyone really lazy or do we just try to force ourselves to ignore our passion? and then the body goes into resistance mode, the body never lies. A "lazy" person does not create an archive-bibiography of over 1000 books in his spare time! It seems your passion is archives, organizing information. 62 could have something to do with that, too...archives and small details go hand inhand.

my other thought was to tell you that age 38 is certainly not old (its pretty damn young actually) to be looking to follow your bliss and spread your wings. Barbara Sher, a lifepath counselor is fond of telling people that the "first 40 years dont count!" .....only meaning that sometimes people dont even discover what they want to be when they grow up until after 40.
all the best, micheline
 

parasio

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Just an idea: Frank you are now 38 years old?

I've only a restricted knowledge of astrology, but I remember in the age of 38 happens the return of Saturn. That means a complete change of life or? Maybe I'm wrong with my interpretation.

BTW: I'm fixated on Saturn in the last days ;-)
 

bradford_h

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Parasio-
No- the Saturn return happens at about age 29.
It's the age by when we're spozed to know who we are and where we're going in life.
After that, the next big "opposition transit" is Uranus, at about age 41, A.K.A. the Midlife Crisis.
 

void

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Still can't access the date/keyword search - just says internal error. Is everyone having this problem ?
 

Grandma

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This seems to me the crux of the matter:


"In my experience, 21.6 usually doesn't want to hear. There is just too much 51: too much shock and upheaval, too much novelty. 21.6 can't take all this at once, and so he actually punishes himself and blocks it out.

Does this sound familiar at all? Is there some possibility you're not considering because it's just all too much? "(from Hilary)

"The principal answer is in the judgement and the image: take a decision; make up your mind; confront a traitor or some one that is an obstacle to you; even quit the job if necesary. Bu to take your decison, you need a combination of clarity and energy: clarity without energy is useless, energy without clarity is risky.
b) Yor goal should be face the conmotion (related hex 51) to survive it. Conmotion make us feel afraid, but some times is the only way to renewal a stocked situation. When we are stubborn, the life sends us a commotion to correct our path
c) To achieve that, the particular advice is the changing line. I mean: the line is not the principal answer, but a particual advice: if you refuse to hear the reality now, the thunder may hit your body soon.
d) Notice that the cause of the line 21.6 is in 57.6 thinking too much without make up your mind had leaded you to inaction" (from Jesed)

And finally from Frank," and still there is something missing... There are days that I think it?s in the work that is needed to be done in the job, and then I want another job... days later I?m satisfied again..."

I think, and this is not an ic interpretation, but only a result of reading your post, that the word satisfied actually means safe.
 
J

jesed

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Hi Frank

If you wouldn't post about i ching, and only about your labor situation, I would say:
"You are facing an stocked situation in your job and need to take a decision to solve it; you had been thinking about it for so long but this is only leading you to confusion and inaction, because you don't make up your mind. If you remain in this doubt state of mind, you could suffer a harm conmotion."

happy.gif



In the way I see it (both reading your I Ching answer and your post), in one phrase: "Is time to make a decision about this"

(And I am not saying what decision could it be ;) )

Best wishes

About 62.4: reed it at the light of 43.4 (cause; oh, again words that are not believed and stubborness???) and 15.4 (effect)
 

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United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

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