Clarity,
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True. But should I - is this a real thing? Yi speaks and means things in readings. Each time it responds with 1.2, it means something subtly different. All those meanings have some commonality, and so I can write blog posts about that, but how much real existence do those ideas have?
Here it is - Part I, chapter 10:
"Yi has no thought, no action. It is inert and motionless, but when activated it penetrates every cause under heaven."
Second that! But also, Hilary, segue, sorry, the "@rosada" in your post (no. 59) is not a blue link. I noticed that also in Moss Elk's post no. 44 where he @-ed you.@rosada , please add that one to WikiWing!
Ditto - degrees, (post-)structuralism, words I can't remember, time I'll never get back. But imagine how much fun that brigade would have if they ever came across the Yi.It's the old argument of does language exist in itself or does it exist only in use, relatively etc etc I'm thinking way back to degree days....all that stuff, the area where language and philosophy overlap...there's words for it I can't remember
?Yes but where are you going with this ?
Naughty Hilary ! You are playing !
Ah yes, that was the point. I knew I had one somewhere. I have to keep thinking about what lines and hexagrams 'mean' on their own, but I feel it would be good to hold onto those ideas only very lightly. I don't want to end up insisting that any line absolutely and always means x. Then you get timid readers saying things like, 'It seems to be saying this to me, but perhaps that's not what it really means,' and checking with the commentary/ with an 'expert'. Yi does all its 'meaning' in readings, talking to people.But Trojina, as I said above, it's an oracular text. It was written and constructed to be that, that's why Hilary can find all these things in it. So I figure (without actually knowing, of course!) that the idea of readings, at least, is in the back of her mind when she writes articles like this, even if she never mentions a specific example.
Ah yes, that was the point. I knew I had one somewhere. I have to keep thinking about what lines and hexagrams 'mean' on their own, but I feel it would be good to hold onto those ideas only very lightly. I don't want to end up insisting that any line absolutely and always means x. Then you get timid readers saying things like, 'It seems to be saying this to me, but perhaps that's not what it really means,' and checking with the commentary/ with an 'expert'. Yi does all its 'meaning' in readings, talking to people.
Yi does all its 'meaning' in readings, talking to people.
Well all these years and I never knew Yi was an oracular text. My my you learn something every day*. This is just a wind up on Hilary's part and you've played into it unwittingly. She's already said she doesn't always write in relation to readings so you made something up like 'oh well she must be thinking about them then' and she's happily picked up that suggestion. It's just playing.But Trojina, as I said above, it's an oracular text. It was written and constructed to be that, that's why Hilary can find all these things in it. So I figure (without actually knowing, of course!) that the idea of readings, at least, is in the back of her mind when she writes articles like this, even if she never mentions a specific example.
People can and do read the I Ching without ever casting a reading, but that's their deal, and doesn't change the fact that it's meant to be an oracle.
Before you point it out, I can see there might be two ways to take that.Don't reply to me just have a nice chat you two together, I think I've lost a taste for the game.
For Line 1.4, something else that's interesting for me is that Ode 239 also says, "the hazel and hu trees are numerous, joyous, and pleased"; and "the lord is (also) joyous and pleased"; and we also have a "bright (filled up) libation-ladle of jade ...."you find Song 239, celebrating the joys of a prosperous country with a good prince. Among its signs of prosperity and harmony: "The hawk flies up to heaven, the fishes leap in the deep."
Look for a role model. Where did that dragon come from appearing in the field as if he fell from the sky?
Yes indeed. And more simply, it changes to wind just as we take to the air. (Bradford makes use of this.)The trigram changes for Line 1.4 are Heaven (with the bottom line) moving to Wind: so perhaps here is the idea of bringing Wind's qualities to bear on the situation at hand: to explore, to be gentle, patient, to communicate; all of which are their own sort of dance.
I don't think they do. I'm no expert, but I believe they lived on earth (especially in bodies of water), and there was a minister in charge of them.One idea/notion I have of dragons is that they mainly stay in the heavens,
Good thought! The dragon comes into view ('see the dragon'), this must be significant, so we had better find someone who can tell us what it means.here I need a translator, an interpreter to understand what Dragon is saying and why she's landed here in my field!
Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
You are correct. My dragon-lore is as rusty as my dragon-speak, but I've changed my tale -- above -- a bit to reflect this new information.I don't think they do. I'm no expert, but I believe they lived on earth (especially in bodies of water), and there was a minister in charge of them.
Yes, one interpretation could be that with this change, Creativity, now has -- or can access -- both inner and outer clarity (light).another nice trigram change: Hexagram 1 has two lines that mention seeing, 2 and 5. Change them both, 'open the eyes' of inner and outer trigrams, and you have Hexagram 30.
Put another way, are you asking: do the hexagram/trigram images have meanings which are independent of the words/text of the Yi?Ah. Hm. Do hexagrams and their images mean things independently of readings? Discuss.
Yes, that's about the size of it.Yes and No and Neither?
No, that's not what I was asking. I was asking whether we can ever say what a hexagram or line 'means' when it isn't speaking in divination. What you've got there is a whole other kettle of worms...Put another way, are you asking: do the hexagram/trigram images have meanings which are independent of the words/text of the Yi?
Hi David:... [The dragons] "Root Breath and Lady She-Voice became the first couple, husband and wife, and Lady She-Voice gave birth to humankind. So you see, we are descended from dragons: we have dragon hearts pumping dragon blood, dragon minds thinking dragon thoughts." - David Hinton, 'I Ching'.
...
Best, D
I was asking whether we can ever say what a hexagram or line 'means' when it isn't speaking in divination. What you've got there is a whole other kettle of worms...
Sorta kinda, yes. Try... is Yi 'saying' anything when it isn't actually saying something, in a reading? Can we claim 'here is what this line means' in general terms when we're not talking about a reading?Okay, I misunderstood. So as to not misunderstand you again: are you asking, can we know what the Yi is saying if we're not doing a casting, if we're only reading about it, if we are just 'eaves dropping' on the Yi? Or ... is it only - or best - understood only in the context of a reading, a casting, or by doing Divination with the Yi?
Is that sorta, kinda your question? (sorry if I'm being dense here)
Sorry, but I'm still not getting it. Are you referring to text versus hexagram/trigram imagery? (I don't think so, but ...?) I don't get 'is it saying anything when it's isn't actually saying something ' ...Sorta kinda, yes. Try... is Yi 'saying' anything when it isn't actually saying something, in a reading? Can we claim 'here is what this line means' in general terms when we're not talking about a reading?
Try a change of verb. Yi is an oracle: something that speaks. When does it speak? In readings. When it isn't speaking, it's silent. If it's silent, how can it mean anything?Sorry, but I'm still not getting it. Are you referring to text versus hexagram/trigram imagery? (I don't think so, but ...?) I don't get 'is it saying anything when it's isn't actually saying something ' ...
... but that's fine - I can let it ride. D.
Ah, I think I kinda, sorta get it! There is another thread in Open Space, 'Regarding the "intentional" selection of hexagrams... ' and some of that discussion brings this same issue to mind. There I said:Yi is an oracle: something that speaks. When does it speak? In readings. When it isn't speaking, it's silent. If it's silent, how can it mean anything?
Yes, or both. 11 years ago, when I started writing the commentary for my book, I thought I had a good understanding of what the lines 'meant'. I found out quite fast that being able to describe what it's saying in a reading is one thing, and writing a commentary that's supposed to work for all possible readings is quite another. (And impossible, of course, which is why I've now spent longer trying to persuade people to ignore the commentary than I ever did writing it...)But I'd say for me, the Yi speaks most clearly when in the context of a reading or query, even one that's open ended. I'm not sure why: it may be because that is its intended use, or maybe that a query/question provides context and / or something solid that the Yi can 'bounce off of' or resonate with ....
I remember Harmen taking on two cases studies during his trigrams course, about a week apart from each other, but both exactly the same hexagram, with the same moving line (2.4, from memory). Of course, the nature of the question was quite different in each case: one was a relationship issue, a sort of character analysis question, and the other was about a cardio-related health problem. It was fascinating to watch his little video clips one after the other. Completely different stories! What he got out of the same hexagram each time was worlds apart!Sorta kinda, yes. Try... is Yi 'saying' anything when it isn't actually saying something, in a reading? Can we claim 'here is what this line means' in general terms when we're not talking about a reading?
(I think we can, sort of, but mostly because those general meanings are well-rooted in readings.)
Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).