Blog post: Not Knowing etymology

[hilary]

All meanings of the name of this post are intentional, as I really don’t know the first thing about Chinese etymology. But in my ignorance, I just stumbled over something wonderful in the first line of Hexagram 4, Not Knowing.

Hexagram 4, line 1 speeds the young ignoramus on her way by removing her fetters and manacles. It reads,

‘Sending out the ignoramus,
Fruitful to make good use of punishing people,
To make good use of loosening fetters and manacles.
Going on in that way is shameful.’

To ’send out’ is*fa, which has to do with shooting arrows from a bow. The ignoramus is truly being launched into the world. (It’s also the personal name of King Wu, so perhaps his education starts here too.)

The characters for ‘fetters’ and ‘manacles’ both begin with ‘wood’; presumably that’s what they were made of. ‘Fetters‘*are ‘wood’ and ‘arriving’, zhi - which shows an arrow that has reached its target. And ‘manacles‘ are ‘wood’ and ‘inform‘ - the same word*as in the Judgement, where only the first consultation informs the young ignoramus.

These characters paint a picture: how the ignoramus flies into the world like an arrow, and how the restrictions that keep her secure also block the arrow from ever reaching its target, and prevent the oracle from speaking to her.

 

[bradford]

Hi Hilary

Fa seems to have its core meaning as "to send or bring out into the open"
So I have all of these in various Matrix places (4.1, 55,2, 2.3x. 14.5x)
educating, developing, delivering, inspiring
manifest, express, show, deliver on
development, issue, expression, delivery
to manifest, deliver, develop, express
demonstrate

Interestingly I think, the Latin for "to lead or draw out of" (darkness, ignorance, etc)
is "ex ducere", the etymology of our word "educate".

 

[fkegan]

Hi Bradford and Hilary,

Interestingly I think, the Latin for "to lead or draw out of" (darkness, ignorance, etc) is "ex ducere", the etymology of our word "educate".

Sorry, Bradford, that would be "eduction" the etymology in the Latin for educate is: Origin:
1580–90; < L ēducātus brought up, taught (ptp. of ēducāre), equiv. to ē- e- + -duc- lead + -ātus -ate 1 [Dictionary.com Unabridged Based on the Random House Dictionary, © Random House, Inc. 2009]

I only know of this since it was a political issue at some point. Education is not leading out of ignorance, but rather helping the young to grow up properly which becomes a major difference with Conservative power politics. More reasonable education policy is to deal with normal developmental issues of the young so they grow into good adults, not effluent to be lead away from ideas those in power don't like.

Eductor: a device for inducing a flow of a fluid from a chamber or vessel by using the pressure of a jet of water, air, steam, etc., to create a partial vacuum in such a way as to entrain the fluid to be removed.

Gia-fu translated hex 4.1 as

IN REMOVING IGNORANCE. IT IS FRUITFUL TO USE DISCIPLINE TO REMOVE SHACKLES. ACTION BRINGS REGRET.Law and order prevails.

The idea of hex 4 is that of correctly dealing with the energy in artesian spring water that appears at the base of a tall mountain. It requires proper channels to be most useful for development.

At line 1 it is just the first appearance of this artesian flow and its need at this point is some sort of useful piping that channels the energized water without interfering with it. This then can be used for great sophisticated irrigated agriculture. Similarly, with school children the idea is not to crush their energetic spirits but to channel their youthful enthusiasm into their studies.

When the open Yin place at the beginning develops focus, the hexagram 4 moves toward hex 41 Sacrifice. Properly channeled, the energy of the new students become wonder and awe about the subjects they are starting to learn.

Frank

 

[bradford]

Sorry, Bradford, that would be "eduction" the etymology in the Latin for educate is:

From the Oxford dfictionary:
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin educat- ‘led out,’ from the verb educare, related to educere ‘lead out’ (see educe ).


Your choice- check your facts or embarrass yourself.

 

[hilary]

Ah, good old OED. I can't get far with 4 (and 24 as nuclear hexagram) without thinking of educare, either.

Harmen's commented on this one on the blog, and I'm greatly encouraged by the fact that - though he proposes a much simpler translation and concept for the line than I could find - he hasn't pointed out any egregious errors.

 

[bradford]

Ah, good old OED. I can't get far with 4 (and 24 as nuclear hexagram) without thinking of educare, either..

Actually the etymology of education was driven home by my first mentor, who taught me my three years of Latin but was also the dean of education at the west-coast-ivy Claremont Men's College. I didn't go there - he taught at our high school pretending to be a regular teacher so he could do research for a third doctorate. He had a lot to tell us about the educational process, why kids are born hungry and what's wrong with a system that makes then not want to learn. His theories still sit well with more modern neuroscience. With this understanding I have no problem at all thinking of "educate" as a literal translation of fa,

 

[maremaria]

Hi Hilary

Fa seems to have its core meaning as "to send or bring out into the open"

in our language ( Greek)


paidagogos : a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.


or from another source

From παῖς (“‘child’”) + ἄγω (“‘I lead’”).


Noun



παιδαγωγός (genitive παιδαγωγοῦ) m, second declension; (paidagōgos)

1. originally, a slave who accompanied a child to and from school
2. teacher
3. guide, leader

 

[bradford]

in our language ( Greek)
paidagogos : a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class. The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood.

Hi-
Pedagogue fits here. The word was adopted into English with an emphasis on its connotations of strictness (and often pedantry). The issue of restraint (along with discipline, boundaries, etc) is a major one in the Yi. Sometimes it's symbolized by restraints like the shackles and cuffs of 04.1, or the brake in 44.1, or the corral (not headboard) in 26.4, or the boundaries in 37.1. It is not a loose and permissive philosophy, and I think this supports my hypothesis that one of the intended uses of the Yi was as an ethical instruction manual for the young nobility or Junzi.
Education is in part a negating experience, a choice of things not to pursue. The dodder plant is like kudzu. The overgrowth of underbrush would be a great symbol of the brains of young humans that come into the world overconnected. A lot of our younger years are spent pruning this overgrowth back, losing the creepers and vines that aren't useful enough to maintain.

 

[fkegan]

From the Oxford dfictionary:
ORIGIN late Middle English : from Latin educat- ‘led out,’ from the verb educare, related to educere ‘lead out’ (see educe ).


Your choice- check your facts or embarrass yourself.

Hi Bradford,

There seems to be a quibble with the OED over the proper Latin meaning for educare in relation to e-ducere. If you assume the OED is total authority you miss apparently some of the nuance of the extra syllable in your Latin. Can the OED be incomplete? Must be a new millennium! To lead out is educt in English. Educare involves raising up or caring for the young, such as with education though it does take an additional syllable for the indication that it is not just educting but educating that is involved. That is not just leading away like the Pied Piper but actually dealing with the little ones as creatures with souls and free will.

I don't feel embarrassed to expose the OED's limitation in its Latin understanding, holding on to the same views and positions since the Medieval Scholastics, with the trauma of the Black Death still in denial about the loss of the scholars and only the library intact.

As I mentioned originally, this quibble over e-duct vs educare is a political issue about the proper position of education and power. However, I do thank you for making a minor quibble into a noteworthy discovery of difficulty with assuming the current editors of the OED are at the top of their game in terms of their Latin etymology.

Best Regards,
Frank

 

[bradford]

However, I do thank you for making a minor quibble into a noteworthy discovery of difficulty with assuming the current editors of the OED are at the top of their game in terms of their Latin etymology. Best Regards, Frank

Yeah what do they know about the English language, compared to you.

 

[fkegan]

What is the detailed not just ultimate source of the English word educate...

Yeah what do they know about the English language, compared to you.

Hi Bradford,
Interesting question, though the quibble is about Latin not English or me. Perhaps the Webster’s Unabridged Dictionary:

educate v.t…[L.educatus, pp. of educare, to bring up, rear or train a child, from educere; e-out, and ducere , to lead, draw, bring]

can help focus your inquiry.

The question is how does educere become educare in Latin and is it OK to truncate that distinction to give only the ultimate origin and not the actual progression in Latin and then on to English.

To maintain your quote of the OED would require an explanation why the change from e-ducere with an e to educare with an a, without any development in the meaning of the word. Clearly, the base origin is to 'lead out' however there is an internal development in the original Latin to make that leading training children to grow up properly and not merely be led like effluent from one location to another.

In general, it is an error of judgment to be bamboozled by gossip into thinking that I do not take my scholarship seriously. Or as my latest Panda Express fortune cookie put it, "You discover treasures where others see nothing unusual."

I leave it to your own excellent scholarship to decide who has made the error or whatever in their knowledge of the English language and its Latin roots...

Best Regards,
Frank

 

[bradford]

I leave it to your own excellent scholarship to decide who has made the error or whatever in their knowledge of the English language and its Latin roots...Best Regards,
Frank

Thank you. OK - it's you. You are the one in error here.

 

[meng]

Who needs Oxford? A teacher must first capture the fool's attention.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ofw0AuYwWqk&feature=channel

 

[fkegan]

Hi Meng,

To set things in a classroom setting, I observed a friend of mine teaching history to her middle school class. The state of CA insisted upon the curriculum principles be posted upon the wall so the students could ignore them as wallpaper. That day's lesson was about the various historical empires and the basis of their economies.

The students lighted up with excitement asking if the Mongol Empire were the bad guys in movie Mulan and the Ottomans were the people in the movie Aladdin? The teacher had taught middle school for decades and her old kids were grown, so she hadn't seen these new movies and when she said that she didn't know, I observed all the lively excitement drain from the entire class as they settled in for another boring history lesson.

Or as Malcolm X put it, " You can't speak to a Frenchman in German." You need to address pupils in terms they understand and appreciate if you want them to respond and learn, which is the point of hexagram 4--channel the excitement of the young student into their studies using the minimal necessary discipline to keep them on track.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

The students lighted up with excitement asking if the Mongol Empire were the bad guys in movie Mulan and the Ottomans were the people in the movie Aladdin? The teacher had taught middle school for decades and her old kids were grown, so she hadn't seen these new movies and when she said that she didn't know, I observed all the lively excitement drain from the entire class as they settled in for another boring history lesson.

Oh, that’s a very sad story, especially when a “teacher” is involved. And she missed a great opportunity to learn about Mulan and Aladdin and bond with her pupils. Kids love that, at least the kids I know.

 

[fkegan]

Oh, that’s a very sad story, especially when a “teacher” is involved. And she missed a great opportunity to learn about Mulan and Aladdin and bond with her pupils. Kids love that, at least the kids I know.

Hi Maria,

I thought I had responded to your heartfelt post, but I cannot find it, so I will try again.

It was even sadder for me as the teacher involved was a friend who had been teaching middle school history for many years. And saddest for me since I was a teacher in training, the reason I was observing the class. I was also familiar with the underlying principles of the educational curriculum listed precisely across the walls so that all would be given fair warning what was expected to be taught in that classroom. Unfortunately, the group of Ph.D.'s from various fields involved in that curriculum development had no training in how to explain these sophisticated concepts to the kids.

OTOH, the teacher lost a great opportunity to follow up the excitement upon their young faces by asking the class how they would relate their history lesson in their textbook to the movies. That would have kept up their excitement long enough for the teacher to research online what these Disney movies were about. However, that isn't how experienced teachers dealt with their classes or subject matter.

In terms of this thread, etymology is always a subset of meaning. It makes a big difference if you take hex4 to refer to Not Knowing or Ignoramus or just little kid or in my own favorite metaphor, the kindergartner with lots of fidgety energy who requires lots of loving care and gentle discipline to keep on point but offers in return all the excitement and enthusiasm that makes teaching worthwhile.

Then there are those who mistake their etymology inquiries for actual scholarship and get snippy about it. Those seem to be the folks referred to in the Wilhelm as deserving of no further enlightenment.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

Once I heard someone saying that if you need to talk to a child you have to knee so their eyes and yours will be in the same level.

As for the etymology , hm I’m not sure why the fuss here.. The image of than man accompanying the child form his house to the Scholl -the world out there is enough for me. In that quest is nice to have a good company.

I feel nothing but pity for those so-called teacher that are entrapped in their superiority and they insist to teach and they fail to see that the classroom is empty because Kids don’t care and don’t respect this kinds of people.

 

[fkegan]

Once I heard someone saying that if you need to talk to a child you have to kneel so their eyes and yours will be in the same level.

As for the etymology , hm I’m not sure why the fuss here.. The image of than man accompanying the child form his house to the School -the world out there is enough for me. In that quest is nice to have a good company.

I feel nothing but pity for those so-called teacher that are entrapped in their superiority and they insist to teach and they fail to see that the classroom is empty because Kids don’t care and don’t respect this kinds of people.

Or in today's comics...

http://www.gocomics.com/calvinandhobbes/2009/09/04/



Hi Maria,

I know that advice from Virginia Satir, the famous family therapist based upon her practice where folks remember the big people by how they look from the child's short stature--huge bulging genitals, huge open hairy nostrils and generally not at all pleasant to look at for them, so she recommended speaking to little kids at their eye level so you look to them as you look in the mirror not a camera looking up from your shoes.

The etymology fuss is solely political. If you actually look up "educate" in the OED it has the same derivation there as in Webster's dictionary, only with more examples. The quibble was over the political argument about the reason 'other folks from lesser backgrounds' don't do well in school. Ultimately part of the revisionist history starting once Reconstruction was ended in the U.S. South and the reality that former slaves built more schools for their children than the white population built for theirs and the long campaign to erase that reality and replace it with one more comfortable to the social elites.

Teachers tend first of all to be young people with the exceptions of us old folks trying to give back a bit to society. Like the college science lab section teaching assistants, often just a course or two ahead of the kids in the class.
They face an age old problem, the essence of hex 4, they must maintain discipline and control to keep the class together focused upon their lesson but they also need to not crush the energy and excitement of the new learners. It is a test of these young teachers who are themselves still learning.

Teaching is a terrible job unless you are able to accept from your students their joy in understanding and making their own these new lessons. But that takes a bit of maturity and openness on the part of the young teachers too. So bad educational systems yield bad teachers who compound their problems by teaching their students poorly... and so it goes.

The various lines of hexagram 4 show how the various changes in focus in that early education situation have different results. The etymology is a focus upon the word choice that can only fully be understood in light of the underlying line structure. The words, particularly in the Chinese are just nuggets or gems embedded in the overall line symbolism to give divination slogans or capsulized insights about the meaning.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

Teaching is a terrible job

Frank

Oh, is that your belief too?

 

[fkegan]

Half a sentence is useless at best...

Oh, is that your belief too?

PLEASE! At least quote me in complete sentences:

Teaching is a terrible job unless you are able to accept from your students their joy in understanding and making their own these new lessons.

I would say teaching is a job highly dependent upon its circumstances. Public school teaching depends upon the school principal and is great or terrible as the principal is weird/crazy/ off on their own agenda or competent, creative and supportive of students and teachers.

Just being stuck in a classroom passing time modeling for your students how little their society thinks of them or values them in any way is a terrible thing wasting 40 minds at a time for 7 periods.

What is your view of dead end teaching in a dead end school?

Teaching overpriviledged kids in private school is even worse as they are trained to play Lord of the Flies at the expense of whomever is deemed different with the principal generally selected and kept in charge only so long as the students' grades reflect their parents' expectations.
In So. CA we had school district (reflecting local private school too- I was involved with both) that blamed migrant laborer children in some distant schools for the top students in the best schools, all straight A grades failing their basic community college entry level classes. The Dist. Sup even demanded it was her right to use her position to force teachers to participate in a pyramid scheme to net her big cash rewards. The demand was made to the DA explaining why she was being charged with fraud... She took a job in another district instead of facing trial.

Or more to the point,

Hex 4 is about various teaching/learning situations and what different attitudes lead to...

Frank

 

[charly]

... paidagogos... a tutor i.e. a guardian and guide of boys. Among the Greeks and the Romans the name was applied to trustworthy slaves who were charged with the duty of supervising the life and morals of boys belonging to the better class....The boys were not allowed so much as to step out of the house without them before arriving at the age of manhood ...

Hi, Maria:

Interesting etymology, instead of putting the unresponsible youngs in a sort of jail, they were escorted when out of home, maybe for keeping them far from brothels till the age they had their own departments. Healthy.

The boys when taller surely preferred the company of another youngs, preferable hetaeras (1), wich helped them to perfectionate their philosophical reasoning.

I don't remember who convinced me that philosophy was a blend of music, wine, food and female talk. Maybe I mistaken the lesson. Nobody's perfect.

I love the beautiful greek characters, although greek is like chinese for me.


Yours,

Charly

____________________________
(1) 1820, "mistress," from Mod.L., from Gk. hetaira "female companion," in Athens opposed to "lawful wife," and thus embracing everything from "concubine" to "courtesan;" fem. of hetairos "comrade, companion," from PIE *swet-aro-, suffixed form of base *s(w)e- ...
From http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?search=hetaira&searchmode=none

 

[charly]

... The ignoramus is truly being launched into the world...

These characters paint a picture: how the ignoramus flies into the world like an arrow, and how the restrictions that keep her secure also block the arrow from ever reaching its target, and prevent the oracle from speaking to her.

Hilary:

Love the image: we thrown in the world like an arrow without target, not knowing neither our origin nor our destiny (1).

Ignorance is part of the human nature. Nobody can be separated from ignorance. Our brains are too little, in a universal scale, no much different from that of the mouse or that of the ant.

The arrow doesn't not know his target, although could have been thrown by a master, little more than the arrow we know. And of course, oracles are hardly willing to reveal us but a little of the whole that we don't know.

And sometimes the things that oracles reveal us is hard to swallow (2).

All the best,


Charly

_____________________
(1) Rubén Darío
(2) Nietzche

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

I don't remember who convinced me that philosophy was a blend of music, wine, food and female talk. Maybe I mistaken the lesson. Nobody's perfect.

Traditionally, philosophy was divided into three branches: 1) aesthetics which is all about what makes women beautiful. 2) Ethics which is the part of philosophy soluble in wine. And 3) logic and stuff which tends to be deadly dull except in symposium which is a traditional party of music, wine, food and talk.

Love the image: we thrown in the world like an arrow without target, not knowing neither our origin nor our destiny (1). (1) Rubén Darío

The problem with this allusion is that an arrow assumes a bow and an archer, two things not generally found in actual human experience. It is also a problem of making so much of the single character being translated as not-knowing or ignoramus. Particularly when the ideogram refers to a pig kept in a pit to be 'trained' how to keep quiet and dispose of whatever organic matter needs to go away and convert it into ham and ribs for big family dinners.

Ignoramus is Latin for "We do not know" used by academics to identify folks not in their school or otherwise being excluded from the group. It also would apply to such a family pig that would generally be denied to be part of the family if found out of its pit.

What happens to this whole discussion if we replace that character of the family pig with the notion of a beginning young student? They also are being launched into their classroom studies with no clear idea for the teacher what their background was at home with their family dynamics nor where they will go as they progress through their years at school. How would that be different from the image of an arrow without a target or an ignoramus or "We don't know you"?

From the position in the first decad about the Water Cycle, this hexagram is about the bubbling spring water like a young student on their first experience of schooling who requires just a bit of channeling to achieve distinction as a fountain of successful irrigation potential.

Frank

 

[maremaria]

What is your view of dead end teaching in a dead end school?



Frank

I don't know. But i know some people educated in that system and are close to my "teacher" definition. Must be something else too that makes a difference.

I don't remember who convinced me that philosophy was a blend of music, wine, food and female talk. Maybe I mistaken the lesson. Nobody's perfect.

I

Lol, looking at Maswlow pyramid it makes sence.

Btw, have you ever read Kazantzakis, I think you will like his thought.

 

[pantherpanther]

charly wrote:
Quote:
Originally Posted by hilary
... The ignoramus is truly being launched into the world...

These characters paint a picture: how the ignoramus flies into the world like an arrow, and how the restrictions that keep her secure also block the arrow from ever reaching its target, and prevent the oracle from speaking to her.
>>>>
Hilary:

"Love the image: we thrown in the world like an arrow without target, not knowing neither our origin nor our destiny (1).

Ignorance is part of the human nature. Nobody can be separated from ignorance. Our brains are too little, in a universal scale, no much different from that of the mouse or that of the ant.

The arrow doesn't not know his target, although could have been thrown by a master, little more than the arrow we know. And of course, oracles are hardly willing to reveal us but a little of the whole that we don't know.

And sometimes the things that oracles reveal us is hard to swallow (2).

charly
_________________________________________________________________

Hi Charly,...

The problem with this allusion is that an arrow assumes a bow and an archer, two things not generally found in actual human experience. It is also a problem of making so much of the single character being translated as not-knowing or ignoramus. Particularly when the ideogram refers to a pig kept in a pit to be 'trained' how to keep quiet and dispose of whatever organic matter needs to go away and convert it into ham and ribs for big family dinners.

Ignoramus is Latin for "We do not know" used by academics to identify folks not in their school or otherwise being excluded from the group. It also would apply to such a family pig that would generally be denied to be part of the family if found out of its pit.

What happens to this whole discussion if we replace that character of the family pig with the notion of a beginning young student? They also are being launched into their classroom studies with no clear idea for the teacher what their background was at home with their family dynamics nor where they will go as they progress through their years at school. How would that be different from the image of an arrow without a target or an ignoramus or "We don't know you"?

From the position in the first decad about the Water Cycle, this hexagram is about the bubbling spring water like a young student on their first experience of schooling who requires just a bit of channeling to achieve distinction as a fountain of successful irrigation potential.

Frank

>>>>
charly and Frank,
Frank's note that "Hex 4 is about various teaching/learning situations and what different attitudes lead to..." reminded me that Hexagram 4 was originally brought up (by me) in reference to Jung's Puer Aeternus complex. Most have read the Hexagram as describing the education of a young child. It may also be interpreted as the situation of a Master and pupil. Even after many years of discipline and study the undeveloped essence of the pupil remains the most resistent to growth while at the same time it is the basic source of energy for growth. The pupil may learn techniques, rituals and ideas but not get very far if the "pig" (or "tiger"?) of the ideogram of his/her nature is not actively engaged in his work with the teacher. If the pupil fails to make the right efforts, he or she may cease learning and be "stuck" or even lose what was learned. The teacher may be able to enable the pupil to some degree, but cannot make the pupil progress in the work. There is always this danger of getting lost for the pupil. The master may wish the pupil to learn to experience "the Buddha nature," and to surpass the teacher. That is the teacher's work with the pupil. My suggestion was that Hexagram 4 could be related to Jung's life and work and , in some cases, to his approach to the I Ching (which contrasts with Richard Wilhem's view.)

 

[fkegan]

Hi Panther,
The psychoanalysis of Jung as hex 4? As the etymology of 'not knowing' or 'ignoramus' 'we do not know'?

That is why I prefer the image of the bubbling spring at the base of the mountain which could become a great irrigation system with only a bit of channeling. Suddenly the ideogram translated Not knowing becomes a fine feast in lengthy preparation on the hoof.

Or more exactly whatever one thinks of Jung, for whatever reason, he did give the Bolligen edition of Wilhelm the academic imprimatur that introduced I Ching divination to a new audience. Thus Jung became the channel for this spring of ancient Chinese wisdom to irrigate the parched West.

Frank

 

[pantherpanther]

Hexagram 4 . Puer Aeternus describes Jung's passive, völkisch or peasant nature and his approach to the I Ching and spiritual ideas. The novelist Thomas Mann noted that Jung was “always a half-Nazi." (Jung rejected Hitler by 1936, of course.)

Jung isn't about the I Ching in a traditional sense. His ideas don't relate. His best co-workers and followers who furthered them were women. But his ideas are about the psychic and therapy.

Diviners who take Jung's "archetypes" seriously seem to me to be taking a wrong line or direction.
'

 

[fkegan]

Hexagram 4 . Puer Aeternus describes Jung's passive, völkisch or peasant nature and his approach to the I Ching and spiritual ideas. The novelist Thomas Mann noted that Jung was “always a half-Nazi." (Jung rejected Hitler by 1936, of course.)

Hi Panther,
You have an interesting mix of prejudice and projection. Jung had his many limitations, however, none of them relate to hex 4 objectively. He was a European and his beliefs were Eurocentric. But all this other stuff is just silly.

The thread is about the etymology of the ideogram for hex 4. How ignorance relates to this hexagram, not how can we express ourselves in ignoramus sorts of ways.

Personally, I like the notion of it being about a kindergartner who certainly could be called an ignoramus though that seems strange. In terms of Jung you can call him puer eternus, always youthful in his wonder for his archetypes, though going from there to saying this is a psychoanalytic complex and he is both a peasant and half a Nazi seems to say more about you than Jung.

Frank

 

[pantherpanther]

Hi Panther,
You have an interesting mix of prejudice and projection. Jung had his many limitations, however, none of them relate to hex 4 objectively. He was a European and his beliefs were Eurocentric. But all this other stuff is just silly.

The thread is about the etymology of the ideogram for hex 4. How ignorance relates to this hexagram, not how can we express ourselves in ignoramus sorts of ways.

Personally, I like the notion of it being about a kindergartner who certainly could be called an ignoramus though that seems strange. In terms of Jung you can call him puer eternus, always youthful in his wonder for his archetypes, though going from there to saying this is a psychoanalytic complex and he is both a peasant and half a Nazi seems to say more about you than Jung.

Frank

Hexagram 4 . Puer Aeternus describes Jung's passive, völkisch or peasant nature and his approach to the I Ching and spiritual ideas. The novelist Thomas Mann noted that Jung was “always a half-Nazi." (Jung rejected Hitler by 1936, of course.)

Jung isn't about the I Ching in a traditional sense. His ideas don't relate. His best co-workers and followers who furthered them were women. But his ideas are about the psychic and therapy.

Diviners who take Jung's "archetypes" seriously seem to me to be taking a wrong line or direction.

Jung was the reason for bringing up Hexagram 4. The etymology concerns the text. The text may relate to a grown up, a child or anyone. Reality: Eternal vs Linear. " That which is has already been, and what is to be has already been; and God requires an account of what is past." Eccl 3:15 (NKJ)

 

[fkegan]

Hi Panther,

You have a real problem with Jung, I guess. He is most known for his forward to the Wilhelm which regardless of his supposed personal problems (mostly in the eyes of those of other psychoanalytical perspectives--the conflict between Freud and Jung was intense) was a major asset to making the Wilhelm the paradigm of I Ching divination.

I note you cite Newton, without being disturbed by his obvious psychological problems that led him to take his sinecure as master of the mint so seriously that he personally got involved in the torture of those poor souls caught tampering with "his" coinage.

None of these celebrities or most other folks are without fault and if you only care about praising some and condemning others, you miss the whole point of the discussion.

There is more than enough to discuss about the etymology of the ideogram for the name of hexagram 4 or what this hexagram with such difficult personal associations for many diviners is all about without having to go over and over again the dispute whether the childlike imagination that sees meaning in archetypes and imagery is to be attacked as a complex or appreciated as simple creative imagination.

Frank