Blog post: Not Knowing etymology

[hilary]

Oops, sorry, LiSe, didn't see your post when I posted. Should just have put 'ditto' marks.

Bruce - eep. Would have to be some pretty good vegetation to hide that one. (And even if the whole pig is a red herring and in fact a tiger, I do like Charly's cartoon.)

 

[Sparhawk]

Bruce's pictures reminded me of Obelix...

 

[heylise]

I really love the image of the pig with its snout in the mud. Learning lots about earth-life, much more than the professor with his fat books about annelids, nematodes, flatworms, polychaete worms, nemertean worm, caterpillars, grubs, maggots. Well, and all the rest you ought to find out about our beautiful earth.

And don't you underestimate them! Biggest worm ever found was 22 feet. Even that huge pig would be scared of that one I guess.

 

[fkegan]

Hi LiSe and Hilary,

I wondered about that too. Lesson 69 C has the simpler character chia1 with Meng2 only in the Phonetic dictionary. However, when you look at the character in the Wilhelm hexagram 4 it is remarkably similar to the chia1 which is covered in Wieger, S.J. lesson 69c. Is it really enough to note there are two characters without realizing they are clearly related. Both about the traditional household structure, one connected directly to the ancient pictograph and the other adding a few strokes to emphasize it is a later gloss?

You can make a big deal of the extra strokes between chia1 and Meng2, or realize there is no negation involved in this character (cf. Piaget and Sartre). There is no sweet little piglet being protectively covered and thus kept from knowing. Only the traditional omnivore pig that helped to define an ancient Chinese family dwelling with a roof above and a privy pig in the pit underneath and within and between them, the family though not explicitly noted in strokes. The relationship being illustrated is that a house becomes a home through a structure within which human development is fostered. And incidentally, the Chinese character with the clearly articulated bristles on the back is a pig, not a tiger (the boar fighting with a tiger is section D on the next page).

So what is the essence of Meng2 the name of this 4th hexagram? That the privy pig is kept covered in its pit, especially in later times when such plumbing issues would be less socially acceptable? And is that later refinement important to understanding the imagery of 1100 BCE?

Another reason I prefer the structural analysis. There are several symbols clearly involved, the spring that appears at the base of a mountain (cf. Wilhelm before his Judgment); the young person in need of teaching and guidance, and the bristle-backed pig within the household structure. Chinese is a relational language (like Navajo, cf Maruyama Metaorganization of Information) and therefore it is the relationship indicated in the character or ideogram that is most important.

All three symbols, the early learner and the artesian spring and the privy pig share a fundamental relationship, that a local structure is being used to produce a beneficial next development.

For the early learner it is a civilized young person or in our current symbolism the kindergarten school room with its desks designed for little bodies to help in the process of getting the fidgety little ones to sit still and attend to the teacher and chalk board at the front of the room.

For the artesian spring it is the irrigation channels that allow places like Palm Springs,CA to become desert oases of date orchards.

For the pigs in their household covering, the ability of these omnivores who do not require more sophisticated feed to become BBQ pork for family meals later.

What expresses this structural relationship symbolism? A hexagram gua with only focus in the 2nd line place of the legs or skeleton structure and the 6th line place of the transition to the Next Development.

And that is exactly hexagram 4 Pupil, Pupal (in its chrysalis going from caterpillar to butterfly) or flowing spring water appearing at the base of the mountain or the Ignorant young kid being educated. Q.E.D.

However, perhaps better to move on to the pretty pictures of pigs, dirt, dolls and claims that the bristles carefully delineating the back of a pig could really just be a tiger and not a pig and certainly not an unmentionable like a privy pig need be involved.

Regards,
Frank

 

[charly]

...
Let's keep our Chinese cultural history straight:
Frank

Dear Frank:

I have heard some scholar saying that Wieger was a pig. Of course, I like Wieger but books are almost unaffordable for me, then I use the office broadband.

About the scientific study of swine diet, I have some comments:

Albert Camus quoted in his writings (1) an old Taoist aphorism «WE ARE WHAT WE EAT» (2). As we were no MOSLEMS we eat PORK meat and then we became SWINES.

But when we feed the PIGS with our own excreta, all we, human or swine, become of the same stuff: S H I T ! (3)

Lucky that the 70% of our body (isn’t it, Janice?) is WATER, although, maybe, with ESCHERICHIA COLI !.

Don't believe that I don't understand you.

Yours,

Charly


____________________________
(1) O or was Borges who wrote it in «The Garden of the forked paths»?
(2) even modern science agree with it, see here:
http://www.economist.com/sciencetechnology/tq/displaystory.cfm?story_id=2020047
(3) Would I say «manure», maybe? What word must I use to say «shit»?

 

[fkegan]

Hi Charly,

I have no idea about the good Jesuit's personal character or quality. In general they have a mixed record in their efforts to use scholarship worldwide to further their missionary work. I was introduced to his book by Gia-fu and I have found great scholarship in his lessons as noted above in my prior post. And through studying his etymological lessons, fundamental understanding of what is being conveyed in the written characters. Others prefer to eschew the lessons and just enjoy their own musings about what the brush strokes let loose in their creative imagination. Different strokes for different folks as the song says.

In the Google search where I found the Miller quote about the privy pig there were also other comments about the use of pigs that way in England or somewhere during WWII. The difference was that they did not eat the pig ever. Just threw it in the compost when one died and was replaced by a new pig.

Yes, it is now a universal aphorism that we are what we eat, but how far down the food chain does that go? The ancient Chinese ate pork and found it a great way to recycle all household waste. If you take your analogy that far, why not the next step too? They ate their own good Chinese cooking recycled through their privy pig as BBQ pork! Darn clever and practical I say! Who knows what is in our grain? Isn't it traditionally fertilized with composted manure? And now with ammonium nitrate (an infamous explosive) and petrochemical pesticides of who knows what biological toxins.

Regards,
Frank

 

[hilary]

Hi LiSe and Hilary,

I wondered about that too. Lesson 69 C has the simpler character chia1 with Meng2 only in the Phonetic dictionary. However, when you look at the character in the Wilhelm hexagram 4 it is remarkably similar to the chia1 which is covered in Wieger, S.J. lesson 69c. Is it really enough to note there are two characters without realizing they are clearly related...

Well, they both contain a pig underneath something, at least in their modern forms. But I'm not sure how much of a relationship that amounts to - there are plenty of Chinese characters that look extraordinarily similar, just differing by a stroke or two, and that have quite unrelated meanings. Sometimes (don't know whether that is the case here) they will turn out to have quite divergent, dissimilar roots.

This is all complicated enough (see links below!) without conflating two characters we can tell apart. There's meng that means (primarily) 'covered over', and jia that means (primarily) 'dwelling'. All your observations about jia are useful for understanding Hexagram 37, where that character appears; not so directly applicable to Hexagram 4, where it doesn't. And since I wax repetitive, I won't post this again.

... And incidentally, the Chinese character with the clearly articulated bristles on the back is a pig, not a tiger (the boar fighting with a tiger is section D on the next page).

This is where I defer to LiSe, who has more dictionaries on her shelf than just Wieger .

The online etymological dictionary samples leave me wondering how anyone can ever know. Here are lots of...
pigs - http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=豕
tigers - http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=虎
and 'covered' (meng) things - http://www.internationalscientific.org/CharacterASP/CharacterEtymology.aspx?characterInput=蒙
- which to the utterly untutored eye looks like two different characters, with the things under the cover resembling women and birds, and not a pig nor a tiger in sight...

 

[pantherpanther]

The pig is symbolic of fertility and virility for the Chinese. Those born in Pig years have intelligence, curiosity, sincerity and generosity. They often believe in what others say and allow themselves to be used.*

Then there is the disciple Zhu Bajie,in the classic Chinese novel Journey to the West. He is called "Pigsy" or "Pig" in many English versions of the story. He was supposed to reicarnate as a human, but by mistake was born as part human and part pig. He often gets himself and his companions into trouble by his laziness, his gluttony, and his propensity for lusting after women. His Buddhist name "Zhu Wuneng", given by bodhisattva Guanyin, means "pig (reincarnate) who is aware of ability, or pig who rises to power", a reference to the fact that he thinks so highly of himself he forgets his grisly appearance. Xuanzang gave him the nickname Bajiè which means "eight restraints, or eight commandments" to remind him of his Buddhist diet. In the Chinese novel, he is often called daizi , meaning "idiot". Bodhisattvas and other heavenly beings usually refer to him as "Heavenly Tumbleweed."

Does this relate to the etymology that Hillary is interested in and/or Wilhelm's reading of Hexagram 4? Perhaps, but everyone has their own take and reasoning - academic, linguistic or whatever.

Monkey may be a "hero" of Journey to the West, but so is Bajiè. Shades of the Brothers Karamazov. The lessons in Hexagram 4 seem relevant in both.
__________________________________________________________________________
* http://pages.infinit.net/garrick/chinese/pig.html

 

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

Intriguing you defer to the books upon LiSe's shelf as authority. Even more so that you ignore the entire point of my post about the meaning of hexagram 4 above and beyond any quibble about what the ancient ideogram might have implied.

Can etymology be reduced to dictionary citations? Isn't there a meaning trapped in there somewhere. That is the point to etymology lessons. Going beyond the mere dictionary citations, which get very difficult since to do them properly takes a philologist to note how the various strokes came to change in various centuries and for what reason. One of my mentors, a visiting Prof. from the Sorbonne of Sanskrit philology, the Pali Canon and ancient Indian Buddhism noted what a pain it was dealing with modern Hindi speakers who thought their understanding of the modern Hindi meanings of words originally from ancient texts was sufficient.

Everything has a context that controls the overall meaning. Focusing solely upon the ideograms, especially in the I Ching which is a text not of consistent poetry but accumulated slogans and jewels of commentary gathered together, doesn't work very well. Another reason why I prefer structural analysis. However, that requires an openness to the notion that the line patterns can be understood by anyone who looks at them within the clear context of the line places. Or that the meaning of the hexagrams is more in their larger context of decads than in the older Shang context of lines and trigrams only.

You see "something covered over" in the modern character Meng2. How would that relate to hexagram 4? The spring isn't covered up by the mountain, it is generated by the height of the mountain, it's an artesian spring.

How is the image of the young student or not-knowing-yet one related to the emphasis of the covering up. Isn't that the question that you started this thread about? How does being covered up, whether with leaves as a parasol or a roof as a home have anything to do with education (educare in Latin)?

Is it just a European Enlightenment disagreement or a fundamental question of what is the relevant meaning of this hexagram? You assume your dictionary entry must be the true meaning and then are surprised when that meaning doesn't make a lot of sense. I agree, it doesn't. I just note that the dictionary meaning has better etymological explanations.

The various imagery stated in hexagram 4 must all relate to the same hexagram meaning. That was the point of my prior post. Not the detail that there are different strokes in the roof of Meng2 and chia1. I would refer you also to Section D of that lesson which has a character showing both a boar and a tiger with their clearly totally different strokes, BTW, but then you don't have the text and all the suitable dictionaries are only on LiSe's shelf.

So how do you get from any dictionary entry copied out from a book on a shelf to anything relevant to the meaning of hexagram 4? I think that is the question that frames the issue of this thread.

Cheers,
Frank

 

[maremaria]

I really love the image of the pig with its snout in the mud. .

I had that image in my mind too, with all that pig discussion. It looks like they are searching Pigs eat almost everything and that reminds me the little kids brain that absorbs, like a sponge, everything around them. Full of curiosity, want to taste everything and full of potential.


A question: Wilhelm says , “The Abysmal acts in the pig”. Is there any chances that the pig in the ideogram is the sign of Abysmal ? Maybe a wild association , but if someones knows, I would like to hear.

Ps. Just read that mountain acts in the dog, the faithful quardian... the teacher ?

 

[hilary]

I really just wanted to clarify the point about which character was which, to help the rest of the debate along. However...

How is the image of the young student or not-knowing-yet one related to the emphasis of the covering up. Isn't that the question that you started this thread about? How does being covered up, whether with leaves as a parasol or a roof as a home have anything to do with education (educare in Latin)?

The name of hexagram 4 means 'covered over' and by extension 'not knowing'. When you are covered over, you can't see, like a young animal hidden in the undergrowth by its mother can't see - or when things are covered over, they are concealed from you, and you don't know they're there.

It's a small step from there to the idea of learning, which (witness line 4 and its zhi gua) doesn't automatically follow from not knowing.

...the I Ching which is a text not of consistent poetry but accumulated slogans and jewels of commentary gathered together...

And this is where we differ. I find the I Ching to be extraordinarily consistent poetry, woven not only of words and their roots, but also of mythical and historical allusions and all the many structural principles of the gua, individually and in all their interconnections. I shouldn't imagine that any one person will ever apprehend all of that at once, but that - for me - is not a reason to say that the part of it I'm seeing clearly at present is the only important part.

 

[meng]

The name of hexagram 4 means 'covered over' and by extension 'not knowing'.

Sure it isn't the way around? While I do appreciate the covering idea being brought to the foreground, this is the first time I've heard heard of it as Meng's primary meaning.

Also, rather than seeing covering as meaning Meng not seeing -

"When you are covered over, you can't see, like a young animal hidden in the undergrowth by its mother can't see - or when things are covered over, they are concealed from you, and you don't know they're there"

- might it not refer to a sort of universal protection? Meng is first covered in the womb, a dark place. But this isn't to prevent him from seeing, it's to allow him to mature safely and in the proper time.

Contemporary Christian vernacular includes an oft used term: covering. Sometimes referred to as the angel's wings which cover small children, or the Holy Spirit which protects children of God. But it can also be the church, which acts as a covering and refuge, or a father or mother which covers a child's eyes to a horrendous scene, or ears from gunshots. Even our eyelids protect our eyes.

From 2Sa 22:3

The God of my rock (mountain); in him will I trust: [he is] my shield, and the horn of my salvation, my high tower, and my refuge, my saviour; thou savest me from violence.

 

[meng]

I think our personal Meng comes out most when things we’ve relied on fall apart. Even an atheist may find themselves calling out for protection (covering) when their life seems to fall apart. Not knowing means the opposite of self confidence. Not that self confidence is bad or wrong, but it’s better to admit you don’t when you don’t know. No answer comes unless a question arises first.

 

[Sparhawk]

The name of hexagram 4 means 'covered over' and by extension 'not knowing'. When you are covered over, you can't see, like a young animal hidden in the undergrowth by its mother can't see - or when things are covered over, they are concealed from you, and you don't know they're there.

You are on the right track, according to Karlgren, as a meaning given to 蒙, "ignorant," is a metonymy for "covered".

Karlgren (lowercase words in parenthesis are direct meaning that implies what follows; uppercase names are the classics where they were first used with that meaning):

1181 a. Meng, to cover (Shijing); (covered: ) ignorant (Shu); (go with covered eyes against: ) to brave (Yi); be exposed to (Tso); deceive (Tso)
​

 

[heylise]

The name of hexagram 4 means 'covered over' and by extension 'not knowing'. When you are covered over, you can't see, like a young animal hidden in the undergrowth by its mother can't see - or when things are covered over, they are concealed from you, and you don't know they're there.

It's a small step from there to the idea of learning, which (witness line 4 and its zhi gua) doesn't automatically follow from not knowing.

Sure it isn't the way around? While I do appreciate the covering idea being brought to the foreground, this is the first time I've heard heard of it as Meng's primary meaning.

Also, rather than seeing covering as meaning Meng not seeing - - might it not refer to a sort of universal protection? Meng is first covered in the womb, a dark place. But this isn't to prevent him from seeing, it's to allow him to mature safely and in the proper time.

I think you and Hilary are both right. From image to meaning or from meaning to image. When you want to make a drawing of ‘covering’, in whatever sense, you find an image in your surroundings which you can use. You cannot draw a concept or abstract meaning. You need a concrete simple picture.

It might be a picture of the pig in the backyard which has its pile of branches and in the center of that a nest for her litter (it is how pigs in Asia still live in yards, they make big heaps of whatever they find for a nest). Or maybe you make a drawing of the men who go out for hunting, disguised as some animal. Or of the shaman dressed in an animal skin, 'covering' his being a human by the image of the animal spirit. All of them covered for some purpose.

The same drawing can serve for covering yourself, for something being covered, someone covering you. It is in general the idea of ‘cover’, be it covering or covered, for deceiving or for protection or just being covered, a darkened mind or a cloudy sky.

Going to figure out Luis' "be exposed to (Tso)". Maybe something covering you totally?
'Receive' and 'meet with' are meanings of meng as well. Never really thought about that.

 

[fkegan]

Hi Hilary,

I wonder why Wilhelm doesn't mention at all anything about the name of the hexagram meaning covered or referring to a mother animal and its young? Perhaps just an oversight upon his part.

I find the I Ching to be extraordinarily consistent poetry, woven not only of words and their roots, but also of mythical and historical allusions and all the many structural principles of the gua, individually and in all their interconnections.

That would explain a great deal. If the Yi is poetry like other poems from other cultures and languages, then its deep meaning could be found in the same analysis used for any other poetry.

What are the structural principles of the gua in your view? And the interconnections of those principles? I have already laid out my views several times but I don't understand yours at all.

Regards,
Frank

 

[lucia]

One of my mentors, a visiting Prof. from the Sorbonne of Sanskrit philology, the Pali Canon and ancient Indian Buddhism noted what a pain it was dealing with modern Hindi speakers who thought their understanding of the modern Hindi meanings of words originally from ancient texts was sufficient.

Well, that’s a bit weird and wonderful because the Pali Canon is in guess what…… Pali – Theravada Buddhist texts weren’t in Sanskrit - later Mahayana texts were in Prakrit and later "bastardised" into so-called Sanskrit but in reality they just had a few Sanskrit touches thrown in for political reasons. Obviusly I am talking about S Asia here.

Meanwhile, any modern Hindi speaker who confuses Hindi meanings with Sanskrit must be fairly daft because most Hindi speakers know it was a language relatively recently constructed by the British for reasons of colonial divide and conquer rule – to separate allegedly “Hindu” India from its glorious Muslim past. Just a trapping of colonialism along with separate personal laws based on further Eurocentric confusion about what is ‘religion’. They share the devanagri script that’s all. Hindi/Urdu is based on a hybrid of many things including Persian.

Going beyond the mere dictionary citations, which get very difficult since to do them properly takes a philologist to note how the various strokes came to change in various centuries and for what reason.

As for philologists “note(ing) how the various strokes came to change in various centuries and for what reason" – pure fantasy – philology just ain’t that exact (and cannot possibly be) particularly with S.Asian "textual" languages which were originally mostly oral although later some were reproduced by copying. Once again the translations were done to serve 2 main purposes: colonial rule and a western obsession with the so-called ‘mystic east’ which was high-fashion at the time. They tended to project all kinds of nonsense onto the “texts”. And philologists of many persuasions disagree about much of it . South Asia still has to live with he political fall-out.

This opens up a raft of issues of text/context but I aint going there because as a Hindi speaker/reader/writer I just wanted to clear-up the confusion about so-called S.Asian texts. Suffice to say that as far as ancient Indian texts are concerned the very acts of selection, translation and philological interpretation themselves changed the meanings and even position in society and importance of the very texts involved. The Bhagavadgita being a great example - exquisite words but neither known nor used by the vast majority until the British translated it for political reasons. The knock-on effect of this in Indian society is massive and very violent in places.

And as for the garbage eating role of pigs - they are still used in that way in 'pig' areas of India - havine 2 pigs is like having 2 toilets. I once had a 2 pig house and it was considered posh!

Oh k pena I forget to mention meng...........................

Lucia

 

[hilary]

Sure it isn't the way around? While I do appreciate the covering idea being brought to the foreground, this is the first time I've heard heard of it as Meng's primary meaning.

There's the primary meaning of the character overall, and then there's the primary meaning as used in the Yijing, and in divination. I'm calling the hexagram 'Not Knowing', as that seems to be what it means. If there were a word for 'someone who doesn't know' that didn't have the derogatory overtones of 'ignoramus' I might use that.

Also, rather than seeing covering as meaning Meng not seeing - - might it not refer to a sort of universal protection? Meng is first covered in the womb, a dark place. But this isn't to prevent him from seeing, it's to allow him to mature safely and in the proper time...

Yes, that too. I like the way you drop this into the vat of associations. Did you get to the Mark Silver article I linked to from the other post?

I think our personal Meng comes out most when things we’ve relied on fall apart. Even an atheist may find themselves calling out for protection (covering) when their life seems to fall apart. Not knowing means the opposite of self confidence. Not that self confidence is bad or wrong, but it’s better to admit you don’t when you don’t know. No answer comes unless a question arises first.

Hm... now this is starting to sound more like 29, especially the bit where everything has fallen apart. I've not had 4 as so much of a crisis - aggravation and frustration and some embarrassment when I realise I'm behaving like a brat, yes, but not the utter collapse of confidence.

Hi Hilary,

I wonder why Wilhelm doesn't mention at all anything about the name of the hexagram meaning covered or referring to a mother animal and its young? Perhaps just an oversight upon his part.

There are plenty of things Wilhelm doesn't mention. Some are because he didn't know; this one, I'd guess, would be because he wasn't interested. Does it matter?

That would explain a great deal. If the Yi is poetry like other poems from other cultures and languages, then its deep meaning could be found in the same analysis used for any other poetry.

Not necessarily the same techniques - I don't remember any other poetry or even any other work of literature being quite so 'hyperlinked' - but the same respect, and the same basic assumption, namely that what you see is part of a whole, the patterns are intentional, and it will all reward study. There is no part that can be thrown out as redundant.

What are the structural principles of the gua in your view? And the interconnections of those principles? I have already laid out my views several times but I don't understand yours at all.

Regards,
Frank

Maybe because I don't have a single, overarching theory? I just walk through admiring patterns and following threads, and finding what helps most in divination. The patterns and threads I enjoy most tend to end up in blog posts in the 'connecting hexagrams' category.

 

[meng]

There's the primary meaning of the character overall, and then there's the primary meaning as used in the Yijing, and in divination. I'm calling the hexagram 'Not Knowing',

Ah, thanks for clarifying.

Yes, that too. I like the way you drop this into the vat of associations. Did you get to the Mark Silver article I linked to from the other post?

Haven't been able to locate it. Meng!

Originally Posted by meng View Post
I think our personal Meng comes out most when things we’ve relied on fall apart. Even an atheist may find themselves calling out for protection (covering) when their life seems to fall apart. Not knowing means the opposite of self confidence. Not that self confidence is bad or wrong, but it’s better to admit you don’t when you don’t know. No answer comes unless a question arises first.

Hm... now this is starting to sound more like 29, especially the bit where everything has fallen apart. I've not had 4 as so much of a crisis - aggravation and frustration and some embarrassment when I realise I'm behaving like a brat, yes, but not the utter collapse of confidence.

I didn't mean to place too much emphasis on danger/falling apart, only that the Meng in us can be activated by it. And Meng does have water as its base.

LiSe, I also see both meanings as being applicable. Thanks for illustrating it. I like idea of camouflage for Meng, as noted in earlier feral pigs taking on the appearance of the forest. A chameleon and Yijing-like feature. I can also see it being used as deception and foolery. And, isn't that also what nature does? Thinking of small fish with a great big eye painted near its tail fin. Nature is replete with fools.

 

[lucia]

Meng

I think our personal Meng comes out most when things we’ve relied on fall apart. Even an atheist may find themselves calling out for protection (covering) when their life seems to fall apart. Not knowing means the opposite of self confidence. Not that self confidence is bad or wrong, but it’s better to admit you don’t when you don’t know. No answer comes unless a question arises first.

I'm not sure abut the confidence bit. Isn't youthful folly a folly precisely because you think (from your limited youthful perspective) that you are OK - that you [think you] know. The wisdom of the elder is to understand that. Thus in Meng (according to Wilhelm) the hex counsels the teacher as well as the pupil. 4.6 can take it to boot camp extremes.

That "thinking that you know" can be innocent and therefore without blame or downright willful and therefore courting real problems. The process of "growing up" is an uncovering - a revealing of "person-in-the-world" (ie not a revealing of a pre-existent condition) if it is "successful" or not depends upon the interaction of youth with what he/she encounters in the world.

Also, rather than seeing covering as meaning Meng not seeing - - might it not refer to a sort of universal protection? Meng is first covered in the womb, a dark place. But this isn't to prevent him from seeing, it's to allow him to mature safely and in the proper time...

It makes me think of the young British Muslim boys who go off to fight in Afghanistan. So much idealism, adventure, a strong sense of injustice and motivation that can lead to death or Guantanamo. But when white boys ran off to Afghanistan (with the same motives) in the 80s also risking death they were lauded and came home and published best-selling adventure travel books. In other words I hear you but I don't think the protection is universal.

just a thought........

Lucia

 

[proserpine]

I think our personal Meng comes out most when things we’ve relied on fall apart. Even an atheist may find themselves calling out for protection (covering) when their life seems to fall apart. Not knowing means the opposite of self confidence. Not that self confidence is bad or wrong, but it’s better to admit you don’t when you don’t know. No answer comes unless a question arises first.

Yes,yes yes.I agree.I've experienced that many times myself.
I think it may be very human to want to be comfortable though, you know?
At least speaking for myself which is what I know best,I know after 'falling from grace',or losing my position, (whether it was then real or imagined),rape and humiliation,losing my home last fall to a fire was by far the worst ever for me.I was never wthout a home before..never ever believed I would be,either.
As much as I can verbally agree that we learn best when we have an open mind,when our egos are reduced, smashed even, when the rug is pulled out from underneath us,I suspect I will return again to some sense of complacency as soon as I can.:bag:

 

[meng]

Excellent points, Lucia, all. Pretty much in agreement with my comments on danger, also. It is Meng's precarious nature to get too close to the edge, and test the teacher's limits and patience. That is indeed how it benefits the teacher, as the teacher morphs into Meng, as Meng morphs into the teacher. Maybe for both, a Namaste moment.

 

[rodaki]

Have been following this thread with much enthusiasm . . don't have much to say about etymology, except perhaps the fact that etymology's etymology reveals it to be the discourse of what is ('etymon' coming from the verb 'being'), which I'd say brings language as vividly close as possible to the difficulty of knowing things for what they are . . a never ending endeavor

other than that, I had 4.1 as my day reading yesterday so I was intrigued to see it coming to life and besides trying to unearth any symbolic meaning, there was one moment where I felt as if I was right in the thick of it . . Leaving the offices of my new job (no great news on that front if you're wondering . .) I took a cab with some new friends cause it looked like it was going to rain. And rain it did!! It started pouring cats and dogs but hey, we were safe in the car, until a fuse went out getting both the windshield wipers and lights out of order and . . voila a kind of 4.1 moment: driving with hardly any visibility, falling rain blurring everything in sight, we had to stop at an electrician near by but they didn't know how to fix it so we had to give up our ride, the cab driver refused to get any money, giving up his fare . .

later I looked into artesian springs and came across this little story : http://www.tomsartesianspringwater.com/shower out of body.htm
. . and a piggy song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zh3pVpJIGU8





Setting forth amidst the force of water
-pouring
hardly seeing through its cloak
-knowing barely
but for the grounding brakes of reason
-something always got to give

 

[meng]

As much as I can verbally agree that we learn best when we have an open mind,when our egos are reduced, smashed even, when the rug is pulled out from underneath us

ego smashing... J. Campbell described that as the guru's job. What's funny is how he describes how the guru uses a tiny hammer, and taps the shell of the seeker, and the shell breaks open, freeing the soul. But when westerners began coming to him, his small hammer had no affect.

 

[meng]

Great story and piggie vid, Dora.

 

[rodaki]

thanks

:bows:

 

[proserpine]

Lucia,I believe that when he was talking about 'covering up' as a universal protection , I didn't get that he meant every sincere person is protected.I think he mwant that the words convey the idea of protecting the child or lacking-in-knowledge one.

 

[proserpine]

ego smashing... J. Campbell described that as the guru's job. What's funny is how he describes how the guru uses a tiny hammer, and taps the shell of the seeker, and the shell breaks open, freeing the soul. But when westerners began coming to him, his small hammer had no affect.

 

[maremaria]

A question: Wilhelm says , “The Abysmal acts in the pig”. Is there any chances that the pig in the ideogram is the sign of Abysmal ? Maybe a wild association , but if someones knows, I would like to hear.

Ps. Just read that mountain acts in the dog, the faithful quardian... the teacher ?

quoting myself, lol , coz That question is stuck in my mind. Does anyone know any sources with more info .

Thanks
Maria

 

[pantherpanther]

Wilhelm's reading of Hexagram 4 and the lines made sense to me because of Mountain above, Water below. The situation is one of Not Knowing. How to keep one's head out of the water and climb the mountain?

What could be the meaning of a pig and a "cover"? What does the "cover" represent? Something to be "uncovered"? Is it a protection? Is it something that the pig needs to work with or through and is interested in doing so ? The Hexagram is about learning and being disciplined.

What did the pig symbolize to Wilhelm or Wilhelm's Chinese teacher and many others? Pigs are symbolic of fertility and virility in many other contexts. As astrological types they are outgoing,generous and curious, with a tendency to believe too easily what others say. My association with Bajie of the classic pilgrimage novel and the above may have none such to Orientals in relation to MENG in the hexagram.

Bajie (Pigsy or Pig in the English versions of Journey to the West).is noted for his fighting skills in the water, which he used to combat Sha Wujing, who later joined the team on their pilgrimage to the West.Although Bajie is nicknamed "idiot" and "Heavenly Tumbleweed" because of his penchant for making mistakes, he is the best fighter of the team, the rambunctious warrior type. Bajie was previously Marshal Tian Péng, commander of the Heavenly Naval forces. He was banished to the mortal realm for pursuing the Princess of the Moon .He was supposed to be reborn as a human, but ended up in the womb of a sow due to an error at the Reincarnation Wheel,
__________________________________________________________________________

- Sha Wùjìng ("Sand Awakened to Purity") is called Friar Sand or Sandy in English. Before his banishment from heaven he was Curtain Raising General, who looked after the imperial chariot in the Hall of Miraculous Mist.