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Blog post: Trusting in stripping away

hilary

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A thought about Hexagram 58, line 5… not yet completely confirmed by experience, just a thought…

Hexagram 58 is Opening, Joy and Communicating: the human figure with the great mouth who seems to dance and sing. This post is about its fifth line - the peak and culmination of the hexagram, as a rule, and its place of greatest choice - which reads, ‘Trusting in stripping away, there is danger.’

A little background should help to show where I’m coming from…

The Shuogua says of the trigram dui that is doubled to make this hexagram:

“Dui is the lake, is the youngest daughter, is the shamaness, is the mouth and tongue, is the deterioration [of plant life] and the breaking-off of what had been attached.”

(RJ Lynn, The Classic of Changes, p124)​

There might perhaps be an old association with the Queen Mother of the West (the direction for dui in the Later Heaven bagua), a goddess who lives far, far to the west of human habitation:

“In appearance the Queen Mother of the West is like a human, with a panther’s tail and a tiger’s fangs, and she is a fine whistler. In her tangled hair she wears the sheng crown. She is the official in charge of vile plagues sent from heaven, and of the five dread evils.”

(The Shan Hai Ching, as quoted in Anne Birrell’s Chinese Mythology)​

So she and dui have womanhood, and the West, and ‘deterioration’ of one kind or another in common, and maybe also tigers and leopards (thinking of hexagrams 10 and 49).

All of this is thoroughly vague and inconclusive, and I’m only starting with it to create a context for looking at 58, line 5 - the place of the ruler within the hexagram of Opening. If there is a place for a shamaness or a queen anywhere in the hexagram, this must surely be it: the dancing mediator in authority, ruler in her own domain.

And then precisely in this place of authority, she is connected (by the changing of 58.5) to Hexagram 54, the Marrying Maiden: the young girl, not yet a woman, who becomes only a junior wife and takes second place, where she has no authority at all.

Might Dui, the shamaness, be entering into marriage with the spirits as a junior bride?

To marry is also to ‘come home’ - and Opening to the spirits must needs involve letting go of ‘bringing order’ and relinquishing her personal ‘direction to go’, as the Oracle of Hexagram 54 says.

Then the moving line itself, 58.5, would show what it takes to make such a marriage:

‘Trusting in stripping away,
There is danger.’

This is the same ’stripping away’ as the name of Hexagram 23: the knife that cuts away the surfaces, leaving one feeling flayed, raw and exposed. The normal defences of the personality are stripped away - which is the work done by a shaman’s drugs, drums and dances. Then there is danger - a word that also means there are ghosts and spirits - and no protection to separate the shaman from the spirits.

It’s worth noticing that the line doesn’t actually say that this means misfortune. Sometimes, in the Yijing, it can still be worth going ahead even in the face of danger. Having said that… I can’t remember ever seeing a real-life reading with this line where the trust was well-placed. (I can remember twice seeing it refer to joining pyramid schemes, which is interesting!)

To discover whether this danger is to be braved rather than avoided, you’d need to ask what you are trusting, so that you allow your defences to be stripped from you; what ‘marriage’ you are entering into that warrants accepting the second place and surrendering control; what kind of ‘home’ you are joining. Perhaps a supremely wise and skilled shamaness could trust in stripping away and emerge unscathed?
 
M

meng

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While it may not be the most accurate translation of 58.5, I've always found Wilhelm's "sincerity toward disintegrating influences is dangerous" to touch the exact nerve of this line's meaning, which I'd sum up as strip the stripping.

It's like getting comfy and familiar with a friend who doesn't want you to succeed beyond them, for whatever reason. It, in no way, serves a worthy goal to persist in that relationship.

Most of these are inner buggers, chuckle, but they're out there too.

Early along a media career path, I'd become good friends with a co-worker. Unfortunately, he fell out of favor with upper management and was cut loose after a couple years. The biggest reason was that this fellow had a habit of finding and talking about faults: faults in the system, in the people, in the industry. While we worked together, I had no problem separating his thoughts from mine, but after he was released, his once cloudy speech became swampy and dark. I began losing my bearing on my path, and a point came when I had to choose: would I strip him or my ability to stay on my own path. I chose to strip the source of the stripping.
 

fkegan

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Hex 58.5 >> 54 or Crown of Contents >> Chasing Rainbows

Hi Hilary and Bruce,

Wilhelm and Yellowbridge draw the the ideogram for Dui differently so it lacks the association in form to a modernist drawing of a person performing.

This Yang line in the 5th place is the ruler of the hexagram and can show its excellent qualities by not joining with the Yin line in the 6th place or expressing and exhausting itself into its resultant hexagram 54.

This could be interpreted as "Don't give in to invitations to strip." or "No te rajas" or "Keep it together" all of which emphasize that line 5 of hexagram 58 is a strong and powerful line and any change for this line is probably difficult or at least fraught with bad temptations.

As an Oracle 58.5 would indicate that there may be many tempting offers though you will be judged by the results of YOUR choices.

Frank
 

elvis

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"Hexagram 58 is Opening, Joy and Communicating: the human figure with the great mouth who seems to dance and sing."

From a universal position the above is perhaps too biased to being positive. At the vague level the focus is on BONDING, the sharing of space with another/others 'out there' - IOW an expansive focus. The tie to the emotion of 'joy' brings out a tie to the more generic sense of PASSION which covers the positive and negative of suffering in joy (as the opposite, mountain, covers passion in the particular form of grief but also discernment)

The emphasis on bonding brings out the reflective focus on 'self-reflection' that is taken literally and figuratively. When the trigram is doubled so the 'self-reflection' is refined to become 'intensity in expression' that covers both positive and negative traits of the hexagram (and as such brings out the intense passion of Dui in top position)

How does 58 express 23-ness? through analogy to hexagram 10 where the pruning element is manifest in the expression of conduct/treading.

58.5 implies an influence of characteristics of hexagram 08 and so a condition described by analogy to hexagram 54. This is indicative of the changing state not being the ideal state and as such the expressive nature is immature. The qualities associated with line position 5 are reflected in those of hexagram 08 and its focus on a passive attraction, being drawn to someone/something (royal court or cult). Combined with the nature of 58 we have the change expression described by analogy to 54 where the change brings out an 'error' in attraction, it is immature in expression.
 

fkegan

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58.5 implies an influence of characteristics of hexagram 08 and so a condition described by analogy to hexagram 54.
Hi Elvis,

Yes, the fifth line is fifth and therefore hex 8 with a single Yang line in the fifth place is vaguely structurally related. And Yes, hex 58.5 moves toward hex 54 as resultant. But No! hex 58 isn't whatever abstract association that pop up looking at binary counters or specific translated words.

Have you considered the Image for hex 58, particularly Wilhelm's commentary?

Frank
 

elvis

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Image (from my original interpretation):

""[With self-reflection comes intensity] : The Joyous. One joins business with friends to explicate repetition."

ERANOS interpretation :

"TUI : an open surface, promoting interaction and interpenetration; responsive, free, unhindered, pleasing; opening, passage; the mouth; exchange, barter; straight, direct; meet, gather, place where water accumulates. The ideogram: person, mouth and vapor, speaking with others" ERANOS p614

Your rigidity in understanding is at times disturbing Frank. The CLASS nature of the hexagrams, their UNIVERSAL forms warrant better consideration than those of Wilhelm. When we move from the particulars of different interpretations to the general that is common across all of them we find in lake the focus on expansive BONDING and so the sharing of space with another/others - the instances of which are many but emotionally there is a tie to the class of emotion we call 'joy' and the more generic element we call 'passion'.

The self-reflection emphasis covers the nature of promotion of self as it does
consideration of self.

DOUBLE that and we move into a focus on "intensity in expression" that is covered in all translations using various specific terms.

Also consider the pairings of:

* In the binary sequence hexagram 58 pairs with hexagram 10.

In this pairing we see the conduct required in functioning in a hierarchic context, the need to clearly differentiate (10) one's actions associated with the overall need for self-reflection and intensity in expression (58). When we include concepts from five-phase theory, these two hexagrams reflect cooperative (top trigram of lake) and competitive (top trigram of heaven) exchange in a context of cooperative exchange (bottom trigram of lake). Thus hexagram 10 has a slightly more 'rigid' focus due to its competitive colouring, and so the need for discipline even if in a 'cooperative' context. On the other hand hexagram 58 is more integrating in focus and more cooperative, reflecting interactions with an 'audience' etc.

We note in the associations to the name of 58 a focus on bartering, on social exchange and this extends into the 'mirror' concept for the trigram of lake where others see themselves 'in' you, or 'through' you. In the context of emotions the trigram of lake associates with sexual love and so easily covers issues of replication. Overall the strong focus in 58 is to the five-phase notion of cooperative exchange, all part of the METAL phase in five-phase.

* In the binary sequence hexagram 58 opposes hexagram 52.

This pairing reflects differences in interactions between oneself and others (58) vs interactions within oneself (52). As such 58 is self-reflective, and 58 is self-restraining. BOTH hexagrams deal with invariant relationships in space, sharing space with 'another/others' but maintaining one's identity at the same time. The different focus on interactions is reflects in five-phase associations where 58 works in the realm of cooperative exchange (a part of the phase of METAL) whilst 52 works in the realm of conditional filtering (a part of the phase of EARTH) - the learning of, the use of, discernment and so filtering things as quality control.

At the LOCAL level, where we deal with an octet of hexagrams with LAKE as base, hexagram 58 'opposes' hexagram 41, thus 58 is the exaggerated form of 41 where 41 focuses on concentration, distillation, processes and 58 exaggerates this through its intensity in expression. (Note the alchemy focus here, and that means that the distillation process can go wrong and we end up with 'crap', literal 'decrease')

* In the traditional sequence hexagram 58 pairs with hexagram 57.

This pairing reflects an overall focus on being influential, be it through cultivation (57) or intensity in expression (58).

INFLUENTIAL:

57 : influential - through cultivation (gradual, diffuse, implicit); 57 cultivating/becoming-influential comes from a context described by hexagram 05 - calculated waiting

58 : influential - through reflection (immediate, intense, explicit); 58 self-reflecting/intense expression comes from a context described by hexagram 06 - compromising

* In the traditional sequence hexagram 58 opposes hexagram 07.

This pairing reflects issues of expression, be it in uniformity in expression as identified in hexagram 07 or in the intense expression of self as identified in hexagram 58, where the expression is cooperative in form.

* The generic properties of hexagram 58 reflect the mixing of the generic properties of hexagram 10 with the generic properties of hexagram 06.

A combination of compromising (06) and use conduct (10) is reflected in the general properties of hexagram 58 with its focus on interaction cooperatively with others and so a need for self-reflection, both literally and metaphorically.

There are a LOT more sequences to which 58 contributes at the level of being a universal and so vague. See some here.

Then of course there is the ability to get the I Ching to describe itself by self-referencing and so we can flesh out high details of hexagram 58 - as covered in the table of such details.

There are times Frank when you remind me of the long-term caged bear suddenly set free and who can do nothing but pace in the same pattern as it did in its cage! - or more perhaps the fundamentalist who cannot read past their 'bible' and take it all literally, 'what is written is what you get'. No way Frank. We are dealing with classes, universals, colourless forms then coloured by local contexts (such as Wilhelm's or the ERANOS project or your focus) and so particularised.

To understand what is going on overall one needs to focus on those universals, the classes of meanings shared across the species. They are vague (blend, bond, bound, bind) but they unite all meaning. In the trigrams there are TWO that cover BONDING, the sharing of space, and they are lake and mountain. To be more specific we can focus on them as opposite sides of the coin we can call "PASSION" - be it the focus on sexual relations or that of general expression in interactions with others where relationships are formed that can become timeless (BINDING covers the sharing of time with another/others and the trigrams of thunder and wind, BOUNDING is reflected in fire and water, BLENDING in earth and heaven)

There is no cage Frank. Explore. Think. Enjoy.
 

fkegan

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Image (from my original interpretation):

""[With self-reflection comes intensity] : The Joyous. One joins business with friends to explicate repetition."

...
Your rigidity in understanding is at times disturbing Frank. The CLASS nature of the hexagrams, their UNIVERSAL forms warrant better consideration than those of Wilhelm. ...

There are times Frank when you remind me of the long-term caged bear suddenly set free and who can do nothing but pace in the same pattern as it did in its cage! - or more perhaps the fundamentalist who cannot read past their 'bible' and take it all literally, 'what is written is what you get'. No way Frank. We are dealing with classes, universals, colourless forms then coloured by local contexts (such as Wilhelm's or the ERANOS project or your focus) and so particularised.
There is no cage Frank. Explore. Think. Enjoy.
Hi Elvis,

I reduced your text to highlight what might be of some interest to the general reader.

Caged animals pace in their cages as that is as close to their natural hunting behavior as they can continue in captivity which is an unusual experience for them. They tend to go off hunting for their own food if returned to the wild.

Do you have a reference to an actual observation of this myth or just your extrapolation from Plato's story of the prisoners in the cave?

However, I agree there is no cage which I do enjoy in my own explorations and thinking. It is just that I find nothing attractive, persuasive, scientific or even logical within the lattice of your work.

So you reject all divination, Wilhelm and all other text commentary based upon the Imperial Edition of 1716 as well as all work in the I Ching other than your own? Interesting.

Let me reduce Wilhelm's text to just the few words I meant to ask you about since you reject his efforts in general:
...In this way learning becomes many sided and takes on a cheerful lightness, whereas there is always [and in all ways] something ponderous and one-sided about the learning of the self-taught.
As to the associations of the trigrams of the two youngest children Lake and Mountain representing bonding and passion that is pretty standard for youngest children in family dynamics. The rest of your comments are more about early and primitive thinking of the 6-bit byte than anything relevant either to this new century of the eternal I Ching.

Have you ever considered that just rejecting all other perspectives doesn't really work very well outside your own inner musings?

Frank
 
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elvis

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Hi Elvis,
Do you have a reference to an actual observation of this myth or just your extrapolation from Plato's story of the prisoners in the cave?
see such as www.fireforceone.com/rl/files/HOW_BIG_IS_YOUR_CAGE.doc (or goggle it to get the HTML version)

or

http://www.stevevolpe.com/blog/files/8d4f5832bb534f980e5987d8e496724e-1.html

its a well used story. :)


So you reject all divination,
not at all - I just consider it untestable, inconsistent, and as such not suitable for the needs of those who seek the useful content of the I Ching free of such methodologies.

The probabilities element alone ensure occurrences of a best fit hexagram (or close to) on a regular but uncertain basis and the nature of the I Ching filter is such that ANY hexagram can be made to be 'meaningful' even if the worst fit.

The issues are in reliable assessments of situations and the extraction of finer details that are NOT presented in Wilhelm or the 1710 imperial or much earlier works - due to the lack of understanding regarding meaning derivation in our brains. It is through establishing such an understanding that the EIC work brings out the language nature of the I Ching and how we can make it self-referencing and so able to describe itself at the CLASS level.

The majority of western perspectives are grounded in Wilhelm/Legge and they on the 1710 imperial edition where such reflects a 'mindless' repetition of ancient perspectives now open to re-consideration given the work in neurosciences etc.

So -- from the EIC perspective you can toss coins/yarrow sticks until the cows come home but you wont get the consistency and testability of results as compared to these derived using the EIC.

Let me reduce Wilhelm's text to just the few words I meant to ask you about since you reject his efforts in general:

As to the associations of the trigrams of the two youngest children Lake and Mountain representing bonding and passion that is pretty standard for youngest children in family dynamics. The rest of your comments are more about early and primitive thinking of the 6-bit byte than anything relevant either to this new century of the eternal I Ching.
Your not thinking outside of your box Frank. The IDM work covers the derivation of classes of meanings from neural activities. What it covers is an abstract domain model. That model can be shown to ground all meaning derived from recursive activities, and that includes the trigrams/hexagrams/dodecagrams of the I Ching as it does the classes of meanings derived from recursion of fight/flight or the classes of types of numbers we use in mathematics. The isomorphism identified reflects these specialist perspectives as metaphors for a generalist perspective grounded in the neurology.

From that work comes the identification of the language structure that emerges from recursion of yang/yin and as such a way to richly describe the properties and methods of hexagrams way beyond the limited prose of past interpreters/translators. IOW we can focus on fleshing out the CLASS level information to then add local context nuances.

The nature of the I Ching line symbols reflects encoding of meaning free of any associated language (e.g. Chinese) and as such covers a universal property of our species rather than something unique to ancient China.

What is of note here is the FIXED element of meanings, 23-ness or 24-ness is constant at the class level, becomes variable when we introduce local context dynamics. IOW as a species our filtering system at the neural level determines all possible patterns of meanings and the I Ching gives us specialist access to such, as does other languages such as Mathematics.

So - your cage appears to be really small Frank and if removed your prose suggests you would not be able to pace wider than that cage - which is fine if that makes you feel safe, but the world moves on in understanding the properties and dynamics of consciousness and meaning derivation and so the I Ching will move on as well.
 

fkegan

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No Elvis,

It is you who can not think or reach beyond the box of your own reflections. Your cage bear story is just a story by a fellow not quite up on the biography of Benj Franklin (one of the icons I was named for by my inventor and chemist father) I begin to doubt you have much of a real background in science or logic or research. Music and IT are fields you can do well in without any real ability in any academic or understanding sense.

Your comments upon divination are just weird. Scientists face the objective world as it is well aware not everything can be fit into the limitations of universal repeatability required for science journals.

You are fascinated by the I Ching but unable to either study it or draw conclusions about it that stand up to objective discussion as a number of others have tried to point out to you but you just run away and keep repeating your text--unable to answer questions or draw conclusions appropriate to any specific topic. You just repeat endlessly your own canned stuff unable to figure out what parts of it might be relevant hoping to direct readers to do that analysis for you. But of course no one can since it is just disjointed ramblings in various tangents.

The nature of the I Ching line symbols reflects encoding of meaning free of any associated language (e.g. Chinese) and as such covers a universal property of our species rather than something unique to ancient China.
NO,No no! You just have the most primitive of binary counters and obsolete work in neuron research not real neurology that you use as magical jargon for your assumptions. Of our species? Hey dude there is no universal properties of just our species--we are mammals with an accidentally large brain. In current research any human properties of thought have developed only in the last 100k years or less in what Jared Diamond refers to as The Great Leap Forward.

The I Ching is elegant Chinese work and the first step to understanding ANYTHING about the Yi is both experience with the Chinese text and divination casting Oracles to answer your own personal questions. Forty years fascinated with the I Ching without ever stepping foot upon the path to understanding. Your materials are just informational data without semantic content or semiotic utility. But then you lack the background to even realize that: data>>information>> content>>understanding>> knowledge>>insight>> wisdom. You have failed at the beginning of the information step and run away to your own private quarters to hurl invective at those able to deal with other people and ideas---something you have yet to show you can do at all.

However diversity is to be applauded and there must be room for those who spend so many decades toiling away in the field even though they have yet to quite manage to begin to see the light of day.

Good Luck.
Frank
 
J

jesed

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http://www.stevevolpe.com/blog/files...496724e-1.html
This one is not an actual observation; is an adaptation from a book.

And
http://www.fireforceone.com/rl/files..._YOUR_CAGE.doc
is another adaptation of the same, not an actual observation

(I wonder if this way is how the EIC was tested ;) )

BTW in the second one in fireforceone, the bear remains at the end inside a cage only a diferent one (pun intended :D): "With a great deal of fanfare, this cage was constructed and a special media event planned to release the polar bear in his new cage"
 
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elvis

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As I said Frank, your cage is really small! What gives you away is your need for belief in current dogma - as you have demonstrated in your focus in walking in the footsteps of others since you appear to be unable/unwilling to make your own footsteps - you seem to have difficulty in breaking symmetry, a preference for maintaining symmetry. The problem with such is that the universe is not symmetric and the development of symmetric thinking covers a focus on socialisation and the dynamics of 'sameness' and so avoiding change even though change is a fundamental of evolution development.

The IDM work is WELL referenced in CURRENT work and your attempts to deny such are amusing in that you don't supply any contradictions to that work (which is the 'proper scientific' way of doing things - you prefer the symmetric thinking format of 'throwing crap' in the form of the play with rhetoric.)

BTW the EIC is REALLY easy to test with the traditional approach but you seem to need to avoid such! LOL! - The EIC wont go away Frank since it works and works well and if you cannot adapt/adopt that is your loss.

Enjoy your cage Frank.
 

fkegan

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Hi Elvis,

Let's trust in stripping away of all cages. You believe your bear story? Have you thought about how the bear is fed? In your set up the cage is magically enlarged and the bear continues to pace to fit the old walls even though its food now appears through the new wall? Does the bear continue to pace until it starves rather than adapt to the new food source? Did you even think of the relationship of getting food to captive animal behavior?

Clearly, although you insist everyone read your links, you have not read any of my website either on Flux Tome (I Ching) or Science is Magic! Try it if you truly believe in out of the Box thinking.

No, it is not required to only believe in current dogma or only accept what is presented to complete a degree. It is required that you work at it and prove your novel ideas. I find it amusing you find my degree with honors in Chemistry and Other Religions so non-innovative-- which I obliged the totally Old School Committee On Academic Standing to accept as its designation and you dismiss my Colloquium to the Science Faculty I gave on my new thinking which was universally recognized as good science although they wondered why I included the other stuff--and the Religious Studies and Philosophy profs who recognized my work as deeply spiritual and philosophical but wondered why I included dull science stuff too.

Clearly you have no experience with doing work anyone else appreciates or even finds plausible--and given the limitations in your ability to manage critical thinking or discussion I can well understand why.

By the way, have you ever been to Kansas? Do you know it is one of the Heartland US states? Have you ever met anyone from Kansas? Or is your experience of the metaphors you invoke limited to story set ups you find on the Internet like the caged bear that can't even pass the simplest logical critique.

Your Oracle was hex 1.7, you don't get to evade answering your own EIC questions or to choose other hexagrams-- you aren't Generalissimo of your own banana republic. There is nothing unstable about any simple sequential odd then even pair of hexagrams--it merely requires six moving lines-- the same as 27/28 or 61/62. Do you think of yourself as unstable?

Hex 1.7 is all about process without personal thought or individual understanding, thus the flock of dragons without any heads. But you reject anything but your own caged thoughts so why bother?

You have supplied your own contradictions and illogical conclusions. When you can present any ability to even notice reality I would be glad to go through some segment of your misunderstanding and explain your errors. Up to this point you have failed to even notice the issues I have raised, responding only with jokes like your bear story set up and the constant repetition that you are too special to have found anything worthwhile in the vast work in the I Ching which you clearly don't understand let alone have anything interesting to add to at all.

No your EIC will not endure. It is only without your personal input that anyone could assume there is anything interesting in the vast pages of non-content you have produced all by yourself all for yourself and rejecting all others as unworthy of yourself.

BTW have you ever even been to a zoo or were you just taken to the circus as a young child and frightened by a clown doing a magic trick and never recovered?

Frank
 

elvis

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Hi Elvis,

..
Clearly, although you insist everyone read your links, you have not read any of my website either on Flux Tome (I Ching) or Science is Magic! Try it if you truly believe in out of the Box thinking.
You seem to have forgotten that I DID read it and made some comments on your email facility that you reported on THIS forum that you did not understand. In reading your work Frank, one comes to the conclusion you need to step out of your cage.

No, it is not required to only believe in current dogma or only accept what is presented to complete a degree. It is required that you work at it and prove your novel ideas. I find it amusing you find my degree with honors in Chemistry and Other Religions so non-innovative-- which I obliged the totally Old School Committee On Academic Standing to accept as its designation and you dismiss my Colloquium to the Science Faculty I gave on my new thinking which was universally recognized as good science although they wondered why I included the other stuff--and the Religious Studies and Philosophy profs who recognized my work as deeply spiritual and philosophical but wondered why I included dull science stuff too.
Your prose suggests it was all adaptive Frank, copying and reflecting back existing material then juxtaposed in a different format - that is not innovation Frank, that is adaptive, 'variations on an existing theme' - there is no originality in that Frank OTHER THAN the act of juxtaposition. Symmetric contexts are grounded in relational space WITHIN a whole. The play with relationships is the source of 'fun'/meaning but it is primitive when compared to the truly original where the price can be alienation until the material is understood.

Clearly you have no experience with doing work anyone else appreciates or even finds plausible--and given the limitations in your ability to manage critical thinking or discussion I can well understand why.
:rofl: - you REALLY do need to step out of that cage Frank.

By the way, have you ever been to Kansas?
Yes Frank - twice.

Do you know it is one of the Heartland US states?
Yes Frank.

Have you ever met anyone from Kansas?
yes Frank, many many times (and a lot in the US military) - and as I said, it covers/represents the safe and secure and the people's mindset reflects an amusing level of naivete re the world at large.

Your Oracle was hex 1.7, you don't get to evade answering your own EIC questions or to choose other hexagrams-- you aren't Generalissimo of your own banana republic. There is nothing unstable about any simple sequential odd then even pair of hexagrams--it merely requires six moving lines-- the same as 27/28 or 61/62. Do you think of yourself as unstable?
The EIC focus is on assessment of a situation. The assessment you propose would be of a highly dynamic situation and the 02 the response to such. As I comment elsewhere this can cover death or 'lying low' to watch the fireworks! - LOCAL context will determine the bias and since there is none supplied then we are talking CLASSES and so cover positives and negatives.

Hex 1.7 is all about process without personal thought or individual understanding, thus the flock of dragons without any heads.
... and so an intense situation with everything happening at once AS IF no one had their head screwed on, the uncertainties present cover the changing line dynamics - and the RESPONSE to such is reflected in either death or else in taking a lying-low position, no action, stepping back, watching from one's cave as all hell breaks loose outside.

But you reject anything but your own caged thoughts so why bother?
You bother Frank because you are disturbed by the EIC.

You have supplied your own contradictions and illogical conclusions.
Where Frank? all I see here is your chronic use of rhetoric, you seem to be stuck in such a position Frank, that cage again! :rofl:

When you can present any ability to even notice reality I would be glad to go through some segment of your misunderstanding and explain your errors.
:rofl: such misguided conceit Frank!

Up to this point you have failed to even notice the issues I have raised, responding only with jokes like your bear story set up and the constant repetition that you are too special to have found anything worthwhile in the vast work in the I Ching which you clearly don't understand let alone have anything interesting to add to at all.
You have not read the EIC Frank, remember you refuse to follow links? The language element of the EIC has been covered here before you turned up so perhaps it is easier to go through the archives then to follow links - or have you tried to comprehend 3-ness or 27-ness Frank? - probably not since to realise what THAT covers can be a bit of a bummer for the traditionalist perspective that has limited itself to the chinese text alone.

You REALLY need to get out of that cage Frank.
 

fkegan

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Hi Elvis,

You do realize that in your terms it does one no good to step out of the cage as one is condemned to continue to pace as if still in the small cage? You seem to have slipped on your logic peel there.

Since you call all the Universe from the Big Bang throughout time and space the little cage and only your text is outside---No, I have no interest in leaving the universe. Though I now do know why I would find your comments about my website unintelligible.

Do you enjoy your contacts with Kansas? You do know the line is from the Wizard of Oz and describes Dorothy's realization she is in an altered state of consciousness, right? At the end of the movie she wakes up with a bump on her head happy to be back home in Black and White. The story is about political allegory of William Jennings Bryan and the lesson for children that they can tell when they are more grown up by no longer dreaming to run away into fantasies of great adventures.

No, Elvis you got it wrong again. I have read many pages of your material. I do use links, I just don't accept a set of links as an alternative to answering a question in real time. But now I understand you and no, again your EIC doesn't bother me I can see where you got it from and that is fine for you. Congratulations upon coming to the end of your Yellow Brick Road.

I hope you find your ruby slippers on your feet too.

Good Luck,

Dr. Frank R. Kegan, Psy. D.
 

elvis

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I see nothing in your post Frank other than a need to stay in your cage - no addressing of specifics, no addressing of the language capabilities of the IC - all manically avoided Frank through a dependency on the use of rhetoric alone. tsk tsk Frank you have obviously given up facts for values.
 

fkegan

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Hi Elvis,

Ever heard of Truth is Beauty and Beauty Truth...?

I don't have a problem with Values, I think highly of them. Are you aware that "facts" refer to history in the sense of what has been done (cf. Latin)? You seem to have your own totally value laden notion of 'facts' which is peculiar since you are only allowed your own opinions and values--facts must be shared by all equally.

You object now to rhetoric? That was the whole of Aristotle's teaching. That is why The Rhetoric is the final volume of Aristotle. Science is merely one of the three available translations for a "Book" of Aristotle from the ancient editors translated by the Scholastic Monks. You should study more history of science and the Medieval University.

Frank
 

elvis

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Hi Elvis,

Ever heard of Truth is Beauty and Beauty Truth...?
It is a symmetry-grounded phrase Frank and so 'corrupt' in that a symmetric perspective comes with an aesthetic element that can be illusion. Your focus on religions etc should have made that obvious to you, but as I have indicated before, your overall thinking is grounded in 'sameness' so perhaps the realm of the asymmetric is outside of your understanding (symmetric thinking comes with its own logic that will instinctively convert basic IF..THEN.. statements into IF AND ONLY IF statements - it is one of the problems in training consciousness beyond its seeding in species awareness.). Education systems are grounded in symmetry in the form of socialisation and so issues covered in, for example, the hex 07 and hex 04 pairings - the need to mask the young and so favour sameness over difference.

I don't have a problem with Values, I think highly of them. Are you aware that "facts" refer to history in the sense of what has been done (cf. Latin)? You seem to have your own totally value laden notion of 'facts' which is peculiar since you are only allowed your own opinions and values--facts must be shared by all equally.
The facts of brain dynamics lead to the facts of classes of meanings - local context then adds the subjective element of values Frank. The problem with putting values ahead of facts is you intentionally favour the symmetric and so 'sameness' focus (and so favour equalities). In doing so you surrender the realm of facts for values, for local 'laws', stereotyping etc etc and in doing so imprison yourself - it is like the difference of 63 and 64 - one covers closure and the other remaining open. To the symmetric minded closure is preferred and as social issues develop it can turn in on itself, become corrupted due to neglect and a need for fresh blood.

You object now to rhetoric? That was the whole of Aristotle's teaching. That is why The Rhetoric is the final volume of Aristotle. Science is merely one of the three available translations for a "Book" of Aristotle from the ancient editors translated by the Scholastic Monks. You should study more history of science and the Medieval University.
Been there, done that, as part of philosophy of science courses and logic courses. In the context of identifying the foundations of meaning in the neurology there is no room for rhetoric Frank. Empirically derived material is better and the EIC offers such and is more consistent and testable than your traditional divination methodology. IOW Frank you seem to be still living in medieval times! (or earlier in the 10th century BC :rofl: )

Now if you wish/need to live in such times that is up to you, but to use the wealth of material available in the IC through such a limited form of methodology is not a good idea if one can promote the IC into a very useful assessor/prediction-system with no NEED for any consideration of 'external sources' influencing analysis of experiences.
 

fkegan

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Hi Elvis,

Good to see you calmed down from your cage fever, I was beginning to think it was your way to admit, "touche" or "OW!"

It is a symmetry-grounded phrase Frank and so 'corrupt' in that a symmetric perspective comes with an aesthetic element that can be illusion.
There is a traditional symmetrical notion in aesthetics which remains one third of philosophy (the others are logic which you have trouble with mostly and ethics which is the branch of philosophy soluble in Ethanol).

Surely you know the doctrine of Maya--all is illusion (and not all is allusion to one's own text). Yet Maya is everyday life like running from charging elephants and just calling it corrupt gets you only isolation.

You missed the lecture in philo class that the claims "only the testable or empirical verification is valid" can not be verified, it is only a values tautology. As saying there are no Absolutes is itself an affirmation of an absolute. Did you miss the Zen/Taoist transcending mystical contradiction lessons?

In the context of identifying the foundations of meaning in the neurology there is no room for rhetoric Frank. Empirically derived material is better and the EIC offers such and is more consistent and testable than your traditional divination methodology. IOW Frank you seem to be still living in medieval times! (or earlier in the 10th century BC)
If you include King Wen and Duke Chou, thank you. In a mere 900 more years Science will see the light and join us. BTW, you are aware "neurology" is the medical field of brain disorders? The work in nerve functioning starts in neuroscience and moves along towards semiotics and semantics--though it never quite makes it to your favorite binary math meets logical positivism.

The facts of brain dynamics lead to the facts of classes of meanings
That is just dead wrong. I have drawn parallels between the notion that patterns of brain synapse structure could be likened to the ability of Yi trigrams and hexagrams to give rise to meaning without coding or Divine intervention by their simple sequence and line values, so I am aware of what you are trying to see through the glass darkly.

However, there aren't real facts of "brain dynamics" yet just hypotheses and theories of what may not yet have been disproved and may well be in tomorrow's research results as published next month...

BTW, I harshly criticize Aquinas and the Medieval Scholastics and note that the academic clings to their mistakes. However, in terms of students as individuals, graduating without surrendering, finding a way to absorb the wisdom and discipline of the traditional education without losing one's independent creativity or ability to be in the world though not of the University is still essential for deserving any intellectual consideration for you work. Keep trying-- you are progressing, I hope.

The big breakthrough is to realize that the Ancients did excel at the "empirical" and the trendy is not better just because it is of Today since it becomes old news with each tomorrow. The result of the same celestial mechanics as observed in the Yi.

Frank
 

elvis

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That is just dead wrong. I have drawn parallels between the notion that patterns of brain synapse structure could be likened to the ability of Yi trigrams and hexagrams to give rise to meaning without coding or Divine intervention by their simple sequence and line values, so I am aware of what you are trying to see through the glass darkly.
And THERE is the problem Frank, YOU did not do a good enough job probably due to YOU not working with recursion properly. Now since YOU failed then how could anyone else possibly succeed! :rofl: You need to do something about that hubris Frank.

What you obviously failed to comprehend was the properties and methods of the neural hierarchy and the basic dynamics that is 'label/abstraction' free. At the basic level all we have are patterns of differentiating/integrating (aka what/who/which vs where/when/how) and we can reduce them to 'feelings' of blending, bonding, bounding, and binding etc - the flow of patterns biochemically elicit biases to patterns and complexity/chaos allows for emergences from each - and all grounded in recursion.

The act of differentiation covers the making of distinctions and we can identify the XOR influence on such where to implement XOR in our brains, ESSENTIAL for anti-symmetry processing and so particulars analysis, requires recursion.

If we take the differentiate/integrate dichotomy and add our attention system with its capabilities to encapsulate, so oscillations within the encapsulation are akin to applying the dichotomy to itself - i.e. recursively. Mapping out the set of POSSIBLE combinations of the elements of the dichotomy give us a spectrum of meanings and we find, through cognitive analysis, that these basic qualities seed all of our abstractions and in doing so indicate the isomorphism present in all specialist perspectives and so the ability to translate one perspective into terms of another - which is what IDM covers as an 'abstract domain model'.

The ISSUES are in our ancestors NOT knowing about 'in here' and so developing local communications in an ad-hoc manner (with lots of anthropomorphism etc) and introducing the dynamics of local context instances and their relation to the neurologically-grounded set of classes of meanings.

What we find in current works is an emerging similarity across different perspectives and that is due to the form of our filtering system (our neurology classes etc) starting to make an appearance - the same sort of pattern we get in, for example, double-slit experiments where over time, the more firings made, the more the dots start to form into a pattern. Your 'mates' have missed most of this as they are over-specialised and so too focused on the trees and so miss the forest.
 

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Hi Elvis,

You seem to be regressing a bit. I guess it's one step forward toward reality and a quick retreat into your stuff. OK. I ignore most of this repetition and you wonder how I can not be fascinated by it. So let me try to explain so you don't have to get so bent out of shape.
What you obviously failed to comprehend was the properties and methods of the neural hierarchy...
Here is the essence of the bottleneck. I do no accept that any part of the general functioning of the nerve firings controls anything at the level of conscious understanding. You seem to feel there is a deep connection between Boolean logic operators in computer systems and the essence of what our brains can comprehend. However, there must be a macro equivalent to such a micro mechanism. There isn't and you have failed UTTERLY to demonstrate anything about it. You cite articles and insist that is what much be the ONLY TRUTH. However, your conclusions do not stand up to the slightest logical or substantive analysis. So you are left with only your own beliefs and values expressed in the most simplistic of choleric rhetoric.

Do better or let the point go. I find nothing interesting or persuasive in your stuff though I have worked with very similar insights but gone beyond your stuff long ago. You so far have only rejected any other perspective, a clear expression of fixed ideas which you need to transcend if you ever expect anyone else to agree with you.

Sorry, you don't make any sense...

Frank
 
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meng

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What's the topic again? Trusting in stripping away, as it relates to 58.5?

“Dui is the lake, is the youngest daughter, is the shamaness, is the mouth and tongue, is the deterioration [of plant life] and the breaking-off of what had been attached.”
This is a rich place, potentially dangerous and frighting. There are bogs and bones, and god knows what else in there. This is the same Dui who is typically depicted as social and joyous? I believe it is, and I'm glad to see this other side discussed.

Not sure what to make of that wicked witch mother of the west though. Was she a catalyst in transforming Dui into something dark?
 

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Hi Elvis,
Here is the essence of the bottleneck. I do no accept that any part of the general functioning of the nerve firings controls anything at the level of conscious understanding.
naïveté.

You seem to feel there is a deep connection between Boolean logic operators in computer systems and the essence of what our brains can comprehend.
You seem to have an issue in understanding logic operators are functioning in the neurology and are not part of some 'Platonic' universe of numbers etc.

As I pointed out before, to implement particulars processing in our brains requires the XOR operator and IT requires recursive activity to enable such. You seem to think that Boolean dynamics are 'outside' of our brains :rofl:

You cite articles and insist that is what much be the ONLY TRUTH. However, your conclusions do not stand up to the slightest logical or substantive analysis. So you are left with only your own beliefs and values expressed in the most simplistic of choleric rhetoric.
all of the IDM material stands up for review/analysis - I think the issues are more in you denial that such material is possible, your NEED for it not to be so since it being so can be upsetting to your current perspectives on IC and a lot else. That is not my problem Frank, that YOUR problem.

Do better or let the point go. I find nothing interesting or persuasive in your stuff though I have worked with very similar insights but gone beyond your stuff long ago.
There is NOTHING in your material covering the language element of the EIC nor the basics of information processing in the brain. Your opening comments indicate a lack of comprehension re neural functioning and more so a preference for some 'external element' being present! If you NEED such that is fine, but the EIC work clearly shows that such a belief is NOT NECESSARY in getting the I Ching to give out consistent, testable, results and that includes identification of purpose etc.

Your inability to comprehend X-ness (and so the language element of the IC) clearly shows a need to deny such is possible - you are stuck in your cage Frank, and obviously you cannot get out.
 

hilary

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Hi Chris, hi Frank,

If you'd like to debate your ideas, please start a thread in 'Exploring Divination' dedicated to just that. I promise not to interrupt you to post about 58.5.

If you'd like to discuss personalities, please do it somewhere else altogether.

Thank you.
 

fkegan

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What's the topic again? Trusting in stripping away, as it relates to 58.5?

This is a rich place, potentially dangerous and frighting. There are bogs and bones, and god knows what else in there. This is the same Dui who is typically depicted as social and joyous? I believe it is, and I'm glad to see this other side discussed.

Not sure what to make of that wicked witch mother of the west though. Was she a catalyst in transforming Dui into something dark?
Hi Bruce,

Dui is the trigram of two Yang lines followed in sequence by a final Yin line. This gives rise to the image of a head with lips and to the youngest Yin daughter. The rest is commentary. The Wicked Witches of the East and West were bankers and Old Money Establishment. The Wicked Witch of a Mother is every high school girl's angry image of the conflict between her high school peers and her mother who is still living the style of her high school peers.

The Lake as joyous waters flowing nicely is symbolism. The actual lake has bogs and bones. Line 5 is a strong line following the open mouth of upper Dui (line 6 Yin) that is expected to resist and not follow Tiger.

Frank
 
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meng

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I believe lack of protection was/is central to what Hilary's initial post was/is about. The shaman she refers to fails to protect herself from the influence of the distant primitive mother, depicted as a the whistling feline. It's an interesting connection. But I still do not see the necessity of her being a decadent influence. Severe, inhuman, instinctive, yes.. but the dark and the murky exist already within Dui. Perhaps it is the protection of the cat which keeps the shaman safe from the dark aspects of the swamp.
 

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A thought about Hexagram 58, line 5… not yet completely confirmed by experience, just a thought…

Hexagram 58 is Opening, Joy and Communicating: the human figure with the great mouth who seems to dance and sing. This post is about its fifth line - the peak and culmination of the hexagram, as a rule, and its place of greatest choice - which reads, ‘Trusting in stripping away, there is danger.’
A little background should help to show where I’m coming from…
The Shuogua says of the trigram dui that is doubled to make this hexagram:

“Dui is the lake, is the youngest daughter, is the shamaness, is the mouth and tongue, is the deterioration [of plant life] and the breaking-off of what had been attached.”

(RJ Lynn, The Classic of Changes, p124)​

There might perhaps be an old association with the Queen Mother of the West (the direction for dui in the Later Heaven bagua), a goddess who lives far, far to the west of human habitation:

“In appearance the Queen Mother of the West is like a human, with a panther’s tail and a tiger’s fangs, and she is a fine whistler. In her tangled hair she wears the sheng crown. She is the official in charge of vile plagues sent from heaven, and of the five dread evils.”

(The Shan Hai Ching, as quoted in Anne Birrell’s Chinese Mythology)​

So she and dui have womanhood, and the West, and ‘deterioration’ of one kind or another in common, and maybe also tigers and leopards (thinking of hexagrams 10 and 49).

All of this is thoroughly vague and inconclusive, and I’m only starting with it to create a context for looking at 58, line 5 - the place of the ruler within the hexagram of Opening. If there is a place for a shamaness or a queen anywhere in the hexagram, this must surely be it: the dancing mediator in authority, ruler in her own domain.

And then precisely in this place of authority, she is connected (by the changing of 58.5) to Hexagram 54, the Marrying Maiden: the young girl, not yet a woman, who becomes only a junior wife and takes second place, where she has no authority at all.

Might Dui, the shamaness, be entering into marriage with the spirits as a junior bride?

To marry is also to ‘come home’ - and Opening to the spirits must needs involve letting go of ‘bringing order’ and relinquishing her personal ‘direction to go’, as the Oracle of Hexagram 54 says.

Then the moving line itself, 58.5, would show what it takes to make such a marriage:

‘Trusting in stripping away,
There is danger.’

This is the same ’stripping away’ as the name of Hexagram 23: the knife that cuts away the surfaces, leaving one feeling flayed, raw and exposed. The normal defences of the personality are stripped away - which is the work done by a shaman’s drugs, drums and dances. Then there is danger - a word that also means there are ghosts and spirits - and no protection to separate the shaman from the spirits.

It’s worth noticing that the line doesn’t actually say that this means misfortune. Sometimes, in the Yijing, it can still be worth going ahead even in the face of danger. Having said that… I can’t remember ever seeing a real-life reading with this line where the trust was well-placed. (I can remember twice seeing it refer to joining pyramid schemes, which is interesting!)

To discover whether this danger is to be braved rather than avoided, you’d need to ask what you are trusting, so that you allow your defences to be stripped from you; what ‘marriage’ you are entering into that warrants accepting the second place and surrendering control; what kind of ‘home’ you are joining. Perhaps a supremely wise and skilled shamaness could trust in stripping away and emerge unscathed?

Hi Bruce,
This original post shows the problems of invoking mere words as the be all and end all of I Ching understanding. The words come long after the hexagram patterns and unless put within the context of the symbolic pattern quickly lead totally astray.
1) There are ways to write the Chinese ideogram for Dui that look like a Western drawing of a girl dancing. There are others that do not and Chinese depictions of women tend to focus more upon child bearing than dancing and singing.

2) Line 5 in Chinese is about trusting in someone who would harvest him or strip him for what they can take from his pockets. Not a warning about a witch needing protection from swamp familiars, but a whore focused on getting the mark's clothes off to pickpocket his wallet. Protection is not the theme but character--don't take her to your room and it won't matter what her evil intent might be.

3)The marriage of little sister (hex 54) is about lust and passion not multiple wife status. The eldest daughter marries into the best alliance for the family fortunes, in traditional society East or West. The youngest daughter is more social and fun-loving and marries for love (hex 31 or hex 54) and family dynamics again both East and West.

Hex 54 line 5 is more Tiger Woods than some shaman either male or female. It is the strong King at court or around the resort pool who is admired and desired by all but should be able to be cool about it or else he will get into serious trouble.

4) Although commentary may invoke the name or legend of various known characters, none of the hexagrams are about personalities. They are symbolic forms describing a certain timing or interplay of focus and general background. It is an abstract symbolism which is tough to get viscerally involved with deeply. This gives rise to all sorts of imagery and component analysis to help out. The innovation of the King Wen Sequence was to arrange the hexagrams as a whole in terms of their symbolic meaning. Rather a Great Leap Forward that left folks scratching their heads. The analysis in terms of trigrams, line pairs, lines, narrative tales and folk legends developed to make understanding easier but also more complicated and less accurate.

5) Overall there is a general assumption that Yin is evil since it is even (numbers) and associated with the feminine which is blamed for sexuality and passion especially by male monks and philosophers. "I wanted to contemplate the purest of philosophical truths, but the sexy impudence of that youngest daughter I saw by the pool kept grabbing at my toes and other nether parts."

As to lack of protection in Hilary's post. The fifth line of hex 58 is expected to have the strong character to not need protection from the evil influences about. It would only be a female shaman or witch expected to need protection and without it to be prey to fundamental female evil or at least sexuality.

The problem of the swamp, like all wetlands is its mixture of earth and water that encourages diversity of ecology far more than either all water lake or all land.

Frank
 
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meng

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This original post shows the problems of invoking mere words as the be all and end all of I Ching understanding.
I doubt Hilary was implying anything as a be all, end all. I know I wasn't. I spoke to a specific element of personal curiosity, and of where I would expect to find it, i.e. in a lake.

The cat woman is an interesting mythical figure, as is the shaman, as well as the personification of a lake. How would you know for certain the cat doesn't protect her? And why judge anyone a whore? How do you arrive at these crystallized conclusions at the exclusion of everything else?
 

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I doubt Hilary was implying anything as a be all, end all. I know I wasn't. I spoke to a specific element of personal curiosity, and of where I would expect to find it, i.e. in a lake.

The cat woman is an interesting mythical figure, as is the shaman, as well as the personification of a lake. How would you know for certain the cat doesn't protect her? And why judge anyone a whore? How do you arrive at these crystallized conclusions at the exclusion of everything else?
Hi Bruce,

I wasn't crystallizing anything which would require boiling the lake until its dissolved solids precipitated--not my style at all.

I quote the whole of Hilary's original post to bring it clearly to mind for us all. It was Hilary who found great meaning in a certain calligraphy and a certain translation for hex 58.5. I raised alternatives as you did, why are mine to be judged--I didn't judge yours.

I certainly wasn't judging anyone a whore. I live in Vegas where prostitutes are a revered part of our local economy. I was using the reference to the concept of the whore who is not looking to bring human pleasure to a sad society, but rather using the opportunity to get someone out of their clothes to more easily remove valuables from them as an alternative explanation for the use of the Chinese ideogram of harvest or using a sharp implement to separate the harvest grain from the growing crop. And therefore the Chinese text of "Trust in stripping away, there is danger" is closer to the simple commentary in Wilhelm that trusting disreputable folks offering low pleasures, whether prostitutes or cocktail waitresses (remember Tiger Woods is in the news now and had many of his encounters here in Las Vegas)--especially when you notice the traditional commentary upon hex 58 line 5 as a strong Yang line in an honored place that should have the character to avoid lowly associations offered by the Yin line in the 6th place (a sexy sage i guess or a Wicked Witch of the Western Lake maybe).

I applaud your musings upon the grand mythology of Cat Woman with or without Bat Man or spinsterish rejection of boyfriends. I applaud the Lake as metaphor in any association and I very deeply appreciate the power and importance of wetlands and the ecological importance of swamps and decaying vegetable matter.

How do you get the notion I am excluding anything? You seem to be trying to hard to exclude and reject my imagery at all costs and misinterpretations:eek:. Or why?:confused:

When it seems at first my remarks are just flip and irksome to you; take a moment and consider how they might be rather based upon deep study of the structural, Chinese linguistic, and Taoist roots of Yi scholarship. Or if you prefer-- not, just fly off the handle and I will be glad to point out to you your error to whatever level of pedantic scholarship or humorous quip it takes to get through the clutter.

Best Wishes,

Frank
 

rodaki

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it could be that 58.5 is about risk taking and how one cuts down on unnecessary risks
. . not taking a risk might make one look less (54) but 54 is all about letting go of the ephemeral
. . taking a risk likewise entails loss -54 as in being on one foot, or seeing only with one eye, loosing support, but that is the nature of risk . .

in either case, it brings to mind 'less is more' . .
 

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