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Can you help me see the positive in 12 unchanging ?

Trojina

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This answer has thrown me a bit because it seems so dead end. I asked about a very long term health issue. Don't want to go into detail but its something i have tried many approaches to dealing with as it involves a certain amount of chronic pain :( . Though nothing life threatening its something I always think there must be some approach that helps/works. So I asked a very open question of something like "how do i make this better ?"....and got 12 unchanging. Seems to me that says I can't win, no use to even try to make it better, that i have to accept it. The fact that its unchanging makes it seem kind of final and incontrovertible as well. Ah well if thats so, so be it, its something i'll have to live with like many people do - but it goes against the grain in that it seems a bit of a passive and hopeless approach to take.

Can anyone see more than this ? I'm just stuck at seeing this answer as a pretty emphatic "No you can't make this better" -

Maybe its one of those times you have to accept a hard answer, i think its likley it is - I just have been wondering over it for a few days. The question 'how can i make this better' was pretty general, i suppose i was looking for an approach/attitude/avenue rather than specifics
 
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dobro p

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Two possibilities.

1 The Yi's imaging the situation RIGHT NOW. Don't expect things to get better right away, in other words.

2 The Yi's imaging the situation, period. A lesson in acceptance.

I hope it's the first scenario, but first or second, the positive thing in this is potential, and that potential is your attitude and how you deal with it. Even if you can't change the situation, you can change your attitude to the situation if you work at it. And that potential is always, always positive.
 

Sparhawk

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Positive spins?

Sure. You saw it here first (claiming copyright unless somebody points me to a contemporary or ancient source where this is presented... :D). I haven't seen it anywhere else, so take it for what is worth... This may work for some people and only for static hexagrams:

The positive of 12 can be seen as it deriving to 62

The hexagram's lines are seen in pairs of two lines. Two lines of the same in a pair create a moving line. Two different lines is a static line where the bottom line dictates the yin-ness or yang-ness of the line. Thus 12 would form the 689 trigram (Mountain) and would be the bottom trigram of a new hexagram. The top trigram is found by changing the 6's and 9's.

Of course, as you can find positive spins you can also find negative ones, depending on what the original hexagram is.

Now, I'm taking that out of my hat and may not be appealing for all but, is one of those things that come to one's mind after staring at hexagrams for a while... :D


On the other hand, you could use Chris Lofting's idea of "finding balance" by finding the XOR of your hexagram against 63 (the perfectly balanced hexagram in Chris' theories). Personally, I believe is one of the best ideas Chris has (of those that I understand, of course...:D)

12 xor 63 = 30
 

martin

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Can anyone see more than this ? I'm just stuck at seeing this answer as a pretty emphatic "No you can't make this better" -

My take on hexagram 12 is that it doesn't necessarily indicate standstill or stagnation. It can also mean other things.
One other meaning is, I think, 'reversal of flow'. Perhaps this suggests trying a fasting cure, because such a cure seems to initiate a reversal in our biosystem. Perhaps you can ask an (alternative?) medic if this makes sense and if it's a good idea in your case?
Or it may suggest spiritual healing, a healing influence that comes 'from above' instead of 'from below'.

Something else that comes to mind - you asked what to do. Perhaps you can't do anything but that doesn't mean that nothing can happen. Or that you can't allow something to happen. After all it's nature that heals, not the patient or the doctor.
How to allow it? Deep relaxation? My favorite name for hex 12 is 'holiday'. :)

Last but not least and more in line with hex 12 as stagnation, it's not impossible that the Yi is in fact giving a diagnosis: there is a blockage somewhere. Does that help, is it possible to find out where that blockage is?
An acupuncturist might be able to find out.
 
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willowfox

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I remember that you asked a very similar question last year and at that time you reported to us that you had an improvement in your health problem, your pain had receded, obviously it did not last like someone said that it wouldn't, I can't remember who, they said that it would get worse.

Hex 12 is giving you a diagnosis, the problem is not going to go away, there are many ills that neither the body or medicine can relive.
 

Trojina

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I remember that you asked a very similar question last year and at that time you reported to us that you had an improvement in your health problem, your pain had receded, obviously it did not last like someone said that it wouldn't, I can't remember who, they said that it would get worse.

Hex 12 is giving you a diagnosis, the problem is not going to go away, there are many ills that neither the body or medicine can relive.

That was about a different problem which has eased greatly and never did get worse.
 
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Trojina

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Hi Dobro, yes i thought later after posting its quite possible this answer is a simple imaging of what is happening right now - hmm and as such doesn't look like much scope for improvement as it stands - but yes theres always potential somewhere (or so they say) like less action equals more time looking at the sky lol

Luis being mathematically challenged I read your post several times but can't understand why 12 derives to 62, but I'll take your word for it..so 62 has something to do with understanding 12 ..keeping small - or in my case smaller - talking of small what happened to the small cute homeless dragon who was looking for a place - seems he has been superceded by that brash and boastful one :D

Martin, excellent positive spins on 12 ! A holiday, lol I like that ! I like all your ideas. 'Reversal of flow' would always produce discomfort - blockage in flow must be the root of most illness yes. You're right there could be a problem with the question as in being focused on what can be 'done' when it may be more a case of what not to do. In any case I think acceptance to some degree certainly seems necessary, everyones answers reflect that.

Thanks everyone :)
 

Sparhawk

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Luis being mathematically challenged I read your post several times but can't understand why 12 derives to 62, but I'll take your word for it..so 62 has something to do with understanding 12 ..keeping small - or in my case smaller - talking of small what happened to the small cute homeless dragon who was looking for a place - seems he has been superceded by that brash and boastful one :D

He found a job toasting marshmallows at the "Renaissance Fair"... :rofl:

As for "keeping small" or "smaller" I wouldn't know. Send me a picture. If you leave it to my imagination I can think a big bottom is weighting down on your lower back and causing sciatic pain... :rofl:
 
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meng

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I think 12 is saying to deny, refuse, turn away from, not give it a penny's worth of credit or consideration. Evidently, this is how to separate yourself from the pain and discomfort.
 

Trojina

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He found a job toasting marshmallows at the "Renaissance Fair"... :rofl:

As for "keeping small" or "smaller" I wouldn't know. Send me a picture. If you leave it to my imagination I can think a big bottom is weighting down on your lower back and causing sciatic pain... :rofl:

:rofl: no for the record my bottom is too small and creates no curve so thats not the culprit
 

Trojina

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I think 12 is saying to deny, refuse, turn away from, not give it a penny's worth of credit or consideration. Evidently, this is how to separate yourself from the pain and discomfort.


Good thinking, I hadn't seen the answer from that angle, hmmm - however it is a tactic I've tried often but it seems to backfire as in it creates much bigger problem -
 
M

meng

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Yes, denial of a health problem doesn't sound like sage advise, however if it's something un-treatable, and it comes down to pain management, then separating from that chronic pain seems like very good advise.

Here's another element to that. Perhaps by separating from it you may be able to do things which it normally would prevent you from doing. For example, I suffered from chronic neck pain for decades, and as a result wasn't able to do certain strenuous things. Then one day I decided to "say no" http://www.yijing.nl/i_ching/hex_1-16/hex_e_12.htm to the pain, and "yes" to things the pain kept me from doing. I discarded the pain and powered through the exercises. The result of this vastly improved the muscle support system of the neck, improving the chronic condition by at least 90%.
 

Trojina

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Yes pain is a weird thing, very subjective and not always in proportion or relation to what is known to be 'wrong' or out of balance in the body in the body. I tread a delicate balance between not paying too much or too little attention to it. Too little and I'll be completely out of action, too much and I'd never do anything. I'm working on it - or then again Martins holiday sounds appealing too :cool:
 

gene

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Hello Trojan

In this context, I would have to take the 11 and 12 hexagrams as pairs, and note that while hexagram 11 indicates peace and prosperity, the flow between the two hexagrams is that each indicates cyclic activity, for hexagram 11 starts out good, and gradually gets worse, hexagram 12 starts out poorly, and gradually gets better, especially in the upper trigram. As such it is necessary to take into consideration cycles, for this is the meaning overall of this series. It's a sine wave, and all life, all creation, is in effect, a sine wave. There is no matter, only sine waves who's interactions give the appearance of matter. Therefore, we must ride the wave, this is beyond man's control. The situation is bad now, but will get better. I do recommend though, that you get into some kind of energy, or chi work, that will smooth out the blockages within your body. Tai Chi, and Chi Kung would be very helpful in this way.

Gene
 

Trojina

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Thanks Gene, hmm yes even a 'fixed' hexagram has to flow to and from somewhere. 12 unchanging seemed particulary static to me but as you say it must be seen as part of the wave flow. :)
 

fkegan

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Nothing static in Cosmos, certainly not in Yi oracles

There are no static hexagrams, they are all part of the continuous flux of perceived reality. The emphasis upon moving lines is like the focus upon home runs in baseball. I met a Taoist baseball sage who complained that they ruined the game--whatever.

In terms of an oracle, they always involve two hexagrams, either two different hexagrams if there are moving lines or the same hexagram twice. When it is a single hexagram, the oracle rather than being static is moving through all the lines, each in order. So you can read all the moving lines (though not the resultant).

I was just working on my text for hex 12 from its Yang line structure and line pairs (heart, will, and environment) noticing its like a ball thrown straight up in the air which is slowing to a standstill, high up in the air. This is not a static end point, just that the kinetic energy has been converted to potential energy of elevation.

With any oracle, it is an instantaneous description open to change when the conditions change--often due to your intervention after understanding the oracle description of the current process and situation.

So, with hexagram 12 without moving lines, it means you are coming to a high point where your prior process motion has been brought to a standstill, but the energy is not lost, just put into perspective and potential. The next course is to find your next process and put this stored up energy into that new initiative beyond the range, as it were, of the current oracle.

Not that things are set in stone, but rather it is time to work through the insights of the current impasse and find a new direction. In terms of chronic back pain, something Western medicine offers only pain management meds--which might be a useful interim step--then find a better medicine that can cope with your situation.

Frank
 

Tohpol

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Trojan,

When I get 12 unchanging it very often refers to something that is entrenched or indeed static or blocked - yes. But at the same time it has also symbolised something cyclical, where the fundaments are right now. To a certain degree it can't be changed head on or in the usual way. I could be wrong but it has worked out that way for me in the past. No forcing one's way through it is going to work I suspect, but a gentle action - almost like going at it from a completely different angel - could be one way. The holiday seems a good idea, a change of scene while this period passes.

Well, nothing you don't know already but I hope it gets better soon!

Topal
 

Trojina

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.

In terms of an oracle, they always involve two hexagrams, either two different hexagrams if there are moving lines or the same hexagram twice. When it is a single hexagram, the oracle rather than being static is moving through all the lines, each in order. So you can read all the moving lines (though not the resultant).

That has never occurred to me before - to read or take into account all the moving lines when there are none, hmmm [/quote]

I was just working on my text for hex 12 from its Yang line structure and line pairs (heart, will, and environment) noticing its like a ball thrown straight up in the air which is slowing to a standstill, high up in the air. This is not a static end point, just that the kinetic energy has been converted to potential energy of elevation
.

Thats an interesting analogy - so rather than see 12 as standstill its more of a hiatus

With any oracle, it is an instantaneous description open to change when the conditions change--often due to your intervention after understanding the oracle description of the current process and situation.

One hopes that is the case, lol

So, with hexagram 12 without moving lines, it means you are coming to a high point where your prior process motion has been brought to a standstill, but the energy is not lost, just put into perspective and potential. The next course is to find your next process and put this stored up energy into that new initiative beyond the range, as it were, of the current oracle.
Not that things are set in stone, but rather it is time to work through the insights of the current impasse and find a new direction.

Frank

Thanks, theres alot for me to think about in your post. It makes alot of sense intuitively to me. :)
 

Trojina

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Thanks Topal :) yes I'm beginning to realise as i read these replies this isn't something I can 'make better' or 'solve' just like that. I'm also seeing hexagram 12 isn't the quite the dead end i felt it to be.
 

fkegan

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oracle hexagram without moving lines.

Going back to your original question: "how do i make this better ?" The Yi answer can be expected to inform you how to improve your situation, not answer the question "What is the objective and absolute judgment of my fate"

The six line judgments, which folks consult when they have moving lines, are also just describing what each individual line is all about within the context of the hexagram overall.

An alternate translation of the first line of hex 12--the roots of things in the oracle--from Gia-Fu Feng's Taoist translation of the Yi is:

YANK ON GRASSTALKS AND UP COME POTATOES BECAUSE THEIR ROOTS ARE TANGLED. ZEST. LUCK. BLISS. Seek ye first the will of the ruler above.

With my process commentary from a number of years ago:
Being confined by circumstances, cut off from all except your own resources. As long as you focus only upon what you have yourself it can be a most successful adventure.

The ruler above is generally the hexagram ruler in the fifth place:

CHAOS COMES TO REST. THE GENTLEMAN HAS LUCK. BEWARE. BEWARE. BETTER TIED TO A BUSHY MULBERRY TREE. You're sitting on a treasure.

Anticipation and waiting. All the signs are good, but anxiety and doubt also abound. Settle into bedrock, put your faith in what is solid and secure, keep mindful of all possibilities and keep hopeful of success.

As an oracle answer to your question, I would take the line "Seek ye first the will of the ruler above." Refers to checking in with that part of yourself that has the strength of will to figure out the solution to your problem, and the caution to tie innovation to a strong background.

May help get you on the road to finding what new things you can do to make your situation better...the other lines may follow in due course, or you may put enough energy into the situation to develop an entirely new process with its own oracle description which would be a solution too.

Good Luck!

Frank
 

Leracy

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Trojan, could it be that 12 is saying 'stagnation' because of whatever you are doing with the problem now? i'm thinking of the saying that goes 'if what you are doing isn't working, try something else'.

As I've posted on this forum, I've been having health problems too. I have been backwards and forward to doctors for years and been told there was nothing wrong, been prescribed anti depressants (although I knew for sure I was not depressed). I never gave up looking for a solution and finally found it this year when someone suggested what the problem might be, and a particular doctor. Turned out that I did have that problem, the doctor prescribed some natural rather than synthetic medicine - and the problem is nearly gone now. I had had it for 20 years. So don't give up. And I wish you well.
 

Trojina

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Thanks Frank thats really helpful :)


Hi Anne, thanks, yup its scary how doctors will put just about anyone on anti depressants isn't it ! One has to be very aware in dealing with ones health issues, can't just put it in someone elses hands. Thanks for the encouragement, I'm glad things are picking up for you :)
 

steve

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i just posted my thoughts
but hey something glitched,,,trojan
the rolling stones new movie is coming out (you may so who cares)
check it out ,, old hippys like u need a buzzzz

Steve
 

stewlsa

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hi
don't forget the nuclear hex of 12 which is something which may happen so there is room for movement - hex 53 gradual advancing.
 

steve

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In other words why not smoke opium in old age
we took acid whe we were young at least some of us did

i guess i am saying ,,dont stress..
John lennon
"what ever gets u thru the night its alright"

Steve
 

fkegan

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Nuclear Hexagrams and Oracle hexagrams ... for hex 12

hi
don't forget the nuclear hex of 12 which is something which may happen so there is room for movement - hex 53 gradual advancing.

Actually, the nuclear hexagram is always happening. It is the inner core out of which a hexagram arises. Hexagram 12 has Yang over Yin in the Heart Line pair (line places 4 & 3 ), and the Will line pair (5 & 2) which produces Nuclear Hexagram 53 (Development or in Flux Tome I Ching terms: Diamond Cutting).

The Environment line pair ( 6 & 1) is also Yang over Yin or Diamond Cutting being resisted and developed by external situation. Overall Hexagram 12 is a time when all sorts of questioning, resisting, and inner developing is going on at all levels and in all line places so that the general process, like a ball through straight up in the air is having its kinetic energy converted to elevation potential. Not lost in any way, not horrible, just not available to use in the current trajectory.

In Flux Tome (I Ching) the name is No Exit from Sartre's play where three folks of incompatible characters are stuck in the same room in Hell. For living folks, there is the possibility of changing things totally through inner development and that is what is being illustrated in hex 12.

The nuclear hexagram 53 being drawn to the open Yin line in the first line place and with a focus upon the transition to the next of the Yang line in the top line place is thus resisting simple continuing development to the expected next phase. Instead there is an effort to stay with the current phase although the transition to the next is a focus as well as a nostalgia/conservative pull to get back to a phase prior. The net result of all this is hex 12 which is a hexagram of staying with the current phase, reconsidering and developing it until you figure out your next NEW involvement to invest with this potential stored up.

All that is just a description of the Yang line places and open Yin spaces unpacked through various layers of analysis, both along the sequence from first to top line and from inner heart core to will involvement that makes the nuclear to the reaction of the environment which brings about this hexagram.

Frank
 

martin

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I like to think of hex 12 as a battery that is connected in the 'wrong' way to a circuit, upside down, plus and minus pole reversed. But this is the 'right' way if there is a current in the circuit (from another source) and you want to load the battery.
Reloading our batteries - that's why I associate hex 12 with 'flow reversal' and 'holiday'.
 

Tony_L

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... I asked about a very long term health issue. Don't want to go into detail but its something i have tried many approaches to dealing with as it involves a certain amount of chronic pain :( . Though nothing life threatening its something I always think there must be some approach that helps/works. So I asked a very open question of something like "how do i make this better ?"....and got 12 unchanging. ...
Can anyone see more than this ? I'm just stuck at seeing this answer as a pretty emphatic "No you can't make this better" -
... The question 'how can i make this better' was pretty general, i suppose i was looking for an approach/attitude/avenue rather than specifics

Trojan,

Here are some random thoughts. Maybe the Yi is taking your literally and offering concrete and literal advice. You don't specify the health problem, so I don't have a sense of whether this will apply, but I have found that the Yi is sometimes very literal about health matters.
12 shows two trigrams Qian and Kun pulling apart, going in opposite directions. Trigrams have been associated with body parts, so maybe the Yi is saying to pull apart or to separate out these body parts. Qian refers to the head and Kun to the abdominal area. I get the image of someone with a spinal disc problem needing stretching or traction (pulling apart) to relieve the pain.
Qian and Kun could also refer to mind and body, suggesting a psychosomatic component, so the advice would be to separate out your mental perceptions from the actual bodily sensations, in other words to reinterpret the pain or see it differently. Mindfulness meditation is extremely helpful in accomplishing this goal. The book Full Catastrophe Living by John Kabbat Zinn is excellent in this regard.

The figure for Pi 否 pairs "no" and "mouth". I'm not sure how this might apply. Maybe blocked communication, saying no to the pain, being careful how you chew to avoid jaw pain, not letting something in or out of the mouth, etc.

It may be that the Yi is using these images to suggest a way to help yourself: no, mouth, two fundamental forces pulling apart and going in opposite directions, separating mind from gut, etc. I have no idea if any of these apply to your situation.

Best of luck in feeling better.

Tony
 
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mudpie

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Stand still. The trees ahead and bushes beside you
Are not lost. Wherever you are is called Here,
And you must treat it as a powerful stranger,
Must ask permission to know it and be known.
The forest breathes. Listen. It answers,
I have made this place around you.
If you leave it, you may come back again, saying Here.
No two trees are the same to Raven.
No two branches are the same to Wren.
If what a tree or a bush does is lost on you,
You are surely lost. Stand still. The forest knows
Where you are. You must let it find you.
David Wagoner
 

Trojina

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Thanks Tony, theres some good ideas there that are helpful :)

And thankyou Listener, a lovely poem. :)
 

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