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Castings Indicating Partnership

marybluesky

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We have this interesting thread about the casts that indicate infidelity.

What about the casts that indicate romantic partnership? I don't have much experience in the matter. The lines about meeting a partner/mate/companion, as well as the lines that indicate good fortune when asking about the possibility of meeting a partner, seem promising. I also can think of hexagram 8 uc/relating.
What do you think? Do you have any experience?
 

diamanda

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Infidelity is a very specific matter, hence easier to pinpoint.

Partnership is highly complex, so I don't believe it could be shown by a handful of readings. People partner for countless different reasons. For social status, for money, to have kids, for financial benefit, for life stability, for love, for convenience, because they feel lonely, to torment others, and so on.

Furthermore, most people turn to divination when there's a problem, not when things are going well. For example a couple where both partners are clear in what they want from each other, and both feel they can trust each other, and both want a relationship - there's not much (or any) need to ask an oracle. So I don't think there's much data on this forum to show 'yes this will be a wonderful long-lasting partnership'.
 

rosada

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I asked the I Ching for an example of a line indicating a positive relationship and received 50.1 - 14.
50.1 Taking a concubine for the sake of her son.
14. Supreme good fortune.

I guess the I Ching isn't into Romance.
:roll:
 

marybluesky

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Diamanda I mean when someone, for example, asks "will i find a partner in January?"Oh rosada so maybe it's better not to ask I Ching about love at all, or maybe interpret its negative answers in that matter positively and vice-versa :p What could I expect if I Ching considers "being taken as a concubine to bear a son" very positive?
 

diamanda

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I asked the I Ching for an example of a line indicating a positive relationship and received 50.1 - 14.
50.1 Taking a concubine for the sake of her son.
14. Supreme good fortune.
I guess the I Ching isn't into Romance.
:roll:
That's priceless Rosada, love it! Let's keep it nice and practical :D

Diamanda I mean when someone, for example, asks "will i find a partner in January?"
Ok thanks for explaining Mary. So if someone is asking about romantico-sexual activity, I consider 17, 19, 31, 46, 34, 44, 57 and perhaps 8 as good omens (but it would depend on the exact combination/lines). Bad omens would include 56, 47, 48, 25, 36, 28. My lists are neither absolute nor exclusive, though.

A concrete example I have of a "will I meet someone in ..." where the answer was yes was 19.1.3 > 46 (even though it didn't end nicely). Perhaps it's a bit safer to ask "will I meet a potential partner in January", that way when we do meet someone we'll still be cautious.
 

marybluesky

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Thanks.I don't have any motivation to have a merely practical relatinship. Such a relationship sounds depressive to be honest. A partner expects you to show romantic feelings & have sex with him anyway, and if you have to fake the feeling & joy all the time... you are really miseable in my eyes.
 

diamanda

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Nobody suggested to you to go find a merely practical relationship where you have to fake it.

Historically it's a relatively new thing to base partnerships on 'romantic love'. In some ways that's good because we have more freedom nowadays. And in some ways that's bad because we have a lot more lonely people nowadays.

Btw 'romantic love' is just a euphemism to say that we sexually fancy the other person.
 

marybluesky

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I see.
The romantic love can be considered an illusion for it's some kind of hormonal rush. If the hormones are to be devalued, the expectation of regular sex and love expression should be stopped, too.
 
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diamanda

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On the contrary. The hormonal rush (or romantic love, or whatever other term) is definitely not something to devalue. It's something precious, which brings us happiness, makes us feel great, and also ensures procreation for the survival of our species. So regular sex, and the different types of love which (hopefully) come along after the first rush, should all be celebrated and continued for as long as possible.

Saying that, we also need to keep in mind that there are loads of people out there who don't function on 'love', but on power and other such shady characteristics. Not everyone's made of the same clay. Just to be clear, I would personally take love anyday :flirt: and wish the same to you!
 

charly

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What about the casts that indicate romantic partnership? I don't have much experience in the matter. The lines about meeting a partner/mate/companion, as well as the lines that indicate good fortune when asking about the possibility of meeting a partner, seem promising. I also can think of hexagram 8 uc/relating.
What do you think? Do you have any experience?
Hi, Mary:
When you say «romantic partnership» or «meeting a partner/mate/companion» may I understand «LOVE & SEX»?

It is one of the most frequent matters of consult in private practice, maybe more frequent than in public forums. In the Changes there are no fixed meanings, every answer is «HOLOGRAPHIC», allowing many alternative readings with different meanings, even sometimes opposites. And every hexagram, every line of the 64 hexagrams can provide answer for any question about «LOVE & SEX».

On the other hand, I think, no line is fortunate or unfortunate in itself, all depends on the context and the syntactic structure that sometimes requires interpolating connectives supposedly implicit in the original text.

As an example of the above, 8.1. could be translated so:

«[If] THERE ARE CAPTIVES, JOINING THEM [will be] NO WRONG.
«[If] THERE ARE CAPTIVES, FILLING [their] EARTHENJARS, [to the] END, [they will] COME ADDED. LUCKY.

The translation can be considered almost literal, with few additions, all reasonable. Of course, hardly relatable to military affairs but easily interpretable metaphorically as capture of concubines and subsequent pregnancies. And it was a comon place in chinese tales that, in times of marriages arranged by parents, concubines instead of wives could be the true object of love and tenderness.

The moral: nothing wrong in taking concubines, if they get pregnant and bring heirs, better. The Changes says nothing about what the main purpose should be.

More about H.8 unchanged, as soon as possible.
(To be continued)

All the best,

Charly
 

charly

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I asked the I Ching for an example of a line indicating a positive relationship and received 50.1 - 14. 50.1 Taking a concubine for the sake of her son. 14. Supreme good fortune.
I guess the I Ching isn't into Romance.
:roll:
Hi, Rosada:

I believe that yes, it is.

See that the character translated as «for the sake of» is yi3, always translated in the Great Image as «accordingly» or simply «thus».

The sense of the sequence you've quoted is:

«... ACCEPTING (or getting) a CONCUBINE
and THEN HER SON (or child, or fruit):
NO WRONG.»​

The character translated as CONCUBINE is qie4, which was the lowest rank among concubines. They were not SECONDARY WIVES, but almost SLAVES, WAR BOOTY, nothing to do with the sisters or cousisns that acompanied the Queen into her new family, nothing to do with the royal concubines.

Only WOMEN (1).

The MAIN PURPOSE for taking CONCUBINES was SEXUAL ENTERTAINMENT and domestic work. Except. maybe, wen the wife was barren but was not convenient to repudiate her for avoiding conflicts with her family. All the sons of the Master had similar rights, but only those with higher rank mothers became heirs. Of course, some Masters ignore the rules, nobody's perfect.

The main purpose of traditional marriage was the alliance between the families, love can happen later or not happen. Making love with a concubine was a personal decision, more apt for love and tenderness, say ROMANCE.

Main wives had the sum of authority inside her house, not strange that they developped bad mood. (2)

All the best,

Charly



____________________
(1) The radical Woman depicts a kneeling woman at the shade of a roof, it can be seen as a female slave, a captive. Men were mainly caught for being behaded in the battlefield or reserved to be behaded in the temple of the capital city. They hardly survive to become slaves.

(2)

Source: Pinterest.Bringing Up Father’s Maggie & Jiggs get hatty by George McManus, 1947
https://i.pinimg.com/236x/88/dd/1a/88dd1a1f9545f37e462f00cafc396ade--comic-strips-graphic-art.jpg
Ch.
 

marybluesky

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Charly;

The thing is, the concubine is taken "to bear a son" in the line Rosada received ; in other words, for a purpose other than love/sex/romance. And notice, Rosada asked an example for"a positive relationship". As if the I Ching values relationships of no love, but personal benefit.
Still I don't argue about its patriarchal view. No surprise, I know it's a very ancient text; but admittedly, its view of women sometimes bother me.
 

diamanda

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The I Ching describes human life. Human life is largely patriarchal, so don't shoot the messenger.

On this forum I read so many stories of horrible behaviours of usually men to women. The women usually end up emotionally wrecked, alone, and childless. And all this in our modern era, which is supposed to be really progressed (yeah right). In comparison, taking a concubine and her son (OR so as to have a son), sounds like a really successful relationship. At least it contains a child (i.e. the notion of procreation, i.e. the whole damn point of 'love').

Of course Rosada asked about 'an example', and the I Ching often being tongue-in-cheek gave us this. Perhaps you should do your own cast about another example, as you seem to be taking Rosada's example in a very negative manner.
 
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marybluesky

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Diamanda all depends on what one values in relationships.

Yes, for me sounds like disaster to have a man who only wants me to bear children. I want other things in a relationship & am not passionate about children.

As for your friend's partner, she is no less guilty than him. These "self-sacrificing" women teach men they can treat females as bad as they want, yet they would pay no compensation & the "devoted" woman is always there ready to be treated like a commodity. Am I to judge her? No. Maybe someday I commit a worse error. But men dare to use women this way largely because that costs them nothing. I'm not talking about specific situations where the woman is literally obliged to remain in the relationship. On the other hand, there are women who don't tolerate such a behavior, even long before our modern area, when the divorce/separation was much riskier for females.
 

legume

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ooh, what an interesting thread! i'm a sucker for romance... and might be the least romantic romantic at the same time...

from my experience, the most frequent hexagrams that came up in relation to romance are:

31 - describing the rules of courtship, the sweet beginnings, used to receive it quite a lot whenever the feeling was mutual, as well as got it as a result when asking for advice for a friend and her lover - perfectly describing their situation;

8 - i used to see someone for years, but we didn't see each other often. so i relied on I Ching for a while, to help understand the mixed signals and anytime 8 came up - we actually would meet for a date / dinner / lunch (it was usually a big unknown until the very last moment). it was a very weird sort of romance. we openly loved and admired each other, there was an obvious attraction but due to circumstances we very rarely got physical and didn't actually have sex. yet the times spent together, often preceded by hex 8, were the best times we had. these were the moments we felt like an actual couple, i guess.

i'd often get 19 or 38 as advice when dealing with my own more serious relationships (had 2 relatively long term relationships - summing them up makes for about 15 years of my life, but left the last one over a year ago in great need of solitude). 38 would come up when the relationship was more on the down side, 19 on the other hand when things appeared better. both seemed at the time to be bringing me and the relationship i was in at the time, back to the necessary balance.

and then there's the marrying maiden of course :p it was usually the resulting hex when asking for relationship advice or about possibilities regarding future romantic partners and still drives me mad as marriage is probably the only type of relationship that i'm not after.
but i think it's interesting that Wilhelm would mention the following 3, within hex 54 itself:

31, describes the attraction that a young couple have for each other; Hêng, DURATION
32, portrays the permanent relationships of marriage; Chien, DEVELOPMENT
53, reflects the protracted, ceremonious procedures attending THE MARRYING MAIDEN, shows a young girl under the guidance of an older man who marries her.


ah, also, i wouldn't ignore the importance of 13 - for me this quite often shows the potential of initially meeting someone special, within a larger group maybe, but hey, one thing leads to another... ;)
 

legume

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Infidelity is a very specific matter, hence easier to pinpoint.

oh boy, i couldn't disagree more. in I Ching's terms (let's not forget, the 64 hexagrams are absolutely nonjudgmental, they simply describe the natural changes that occur in the world an it's the translators and then interpreters own judgment that is being passed on the situation asked about) infidelity is as much about relationship between two people, as any other romantic partnership.

but i'd think it's easier to gain insight into a reading about oneself plus someone, than someone else plus someone else (as that is very much sticking one's nose into somebody else's business, whatever our views on cheating might be)...
 

charly

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Charly;
The thing is, the concubine is taken "to bear a son" in the line Rosada received ; in other words, for a purpose other than love/sex/romance. And notice, Rosada asked an example for"a positive relationship". As if the I Ching values relationships of no love, but personal benefit.
Still I don't argue about its patriarchal view. No surprise, I know it's a very ancient text; but admittedly, its view of women sometimes bother me.
Hi, Mary:

Maybe I was not enough clear. I held that if we consult the Changes, the Changes anwers us speaking about ourselves and about our concerns and speak to us in our own language. Sometimes we misundertand a message, but that's another story.

No matters the hexagram or lines we get it always contains an answer for our consult. In consequence there are no hexagrams or lines about romance or love, lucky or unlucky. All the hexagrams and lines can bear answers about romance or love, lucky or unlucky.

As you can see here ...
Hi, Rosada: ...

The Changes, the Recived Traditional Chinese Text didn't say that concubines were taken in order to have a son, it says that who is acquiring a concubine is also acquiring, as a consequence, the sons that can have with her. The Changes says nothing about the purpose.

The connection among concubines an love reside not in the Changes itself but in chinese literature were the bonds between a young girl and and a master was seen though the lens of romance.

(To be continued)

See you soon,

Charly
 
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legume

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I asked the I Ching for an example of a line indicating a positive relationship and received 50.1 - 14.
50.1 Taking a concubine for the sake of her son.
14. Supreme good fortune.

I guess the I Ching isn't into Romance.
:roll:

i find it so confusing when even the most advanced diviners get caught up in the positive vs negative reading... there is no positive or negative, everything is relative and the I Ching serves to show us the dynamics of it all, imo. there's at least 64 shades of grey, but no absolute black and white...

as to the line - it could very well indicate a romantic relationship for someone. but in the question asked, we neither know the context nor the subject that seeks the answer... we can imagine though, that in such example, let's say, some guy meets a girl who already has a child, and is in doubt if it's a good idea to continue, being afraid either of his own position or being a good stepfather for the kid, or generally having some difficulties making a decision - in such case:

A ting with legs upturned.
Furthers removal of stagnating stuff.
One takes a concubine for the sake of her son.

No blame.


his doubts or lack of self confidence could be the stagnating stuff and if he removes them, accepts the girl together with her life situation and believes in himself a bit more - supreme success might be the result? it's kinda funny to do a reverse reading and try to guess who the person asking might be :rolleyes:

anyway, as to the I Ching's sexist commentary - there's plenty of ways around it, i think. it might be difficult and tiresome at times, but i noticed that the less i focus on the annoying parts, the more helpful and fruitful the symbolism behind all these ancient stories becomes...
 

diamanda

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i find it so confusing when even the most advanced diviners get caught up in the positive vs negative reading... there is no positive or negative, everything is relative
I find it confusing when people get an oracle reading which says a specific omen, e.g. good fortune or misfotune, and stretch it here there and everywhere, till it fits what they originally had in mind (usually some super generalistic notion of get rid of negativity, learn, advance, etc.). If there's no positive or negative, then anything could mean anything. For example we can ask how will my year be? and we get 47 unchanging. Then we can stretch it to absurdity to mean something 'positive'.
I disagree with this unrealistic approach.
 

charly

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...
as to the line - it could very well indicate a romantic relationship for someone. but in the question asked, we neither know the context nor the subject that seeks the answer... we can imagine though, that in such example, let's say, some guy meets a girl who already has a child, and is in doubt if it's a good idea to continue, being afraid either of his own position or being a good stepfather for the kid, or generally having some difficulties making a decision - in such case:

A ting with legs upturned.
Furthers removal of stagnating stuff.
One takes a concubine for the sake of her son.

No blame.

his doubts or lack of self confidence could be the stagnating stuff and if he removes them, accepts the girl together with her life situation and believes in himself a bit more - supreme success might be the result? it's kinda funny to do a reverse reading and try to guess who the person asking might be :rolleyes:

anyway, as to the I Ching's sexist commentary - there's plenty of ways around it, i think. it might be difficult and tiresome at times, but i noticed that the less i focus on the annoying parts, the more helpful and fruitful the symbolism behind all these ancient stories becomes...

Hi, Legume:

I like when somebody talks with the Changes. Talking one can make fanciful connections that the actual consultant will say if fits or not to the context of the case.

The language of the Changes is not very accurate, and if that were not enough, there are the issues of polysemies, metaphors, phonetic loans, double-entenders, and so on...

I believe that is good to begin asking oneself about the accuracy or about ideological biass in the translation one is using. Is good to begin with a literal, as far as if it is possible, translation of the Received Text, the traditional chinese text that used Legge, Wilhelm and many other.

Assap I will provide it fot 50.1 for clarifying possitions.

All the best,

Charly
 

legume

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I disagree with this unrealistic approach.

unrealistic for some yet reality for others. aah, that relativity again ;)

i totally understand what you mean though, in the sense of receiving a reading and knowing for yourself or for whomever we're asking, if the answer is promising, or supporting that person's wish at least. but i don't think, no matter how psychic someone might be, we can ever judge if whatever seemingly temporarily (at the time of the reading) benefits someone, is actually serving their well-being long-term.

there's a sticky on Positive-and-Negative-Hexagrams on this forum, quoting one of my favourite Chinese tales on good luck / bad luck, which probably better illustrates what i was trying to say...

and as to the example of 47 uc for question of what kind of year it might be for someone - i can easily come up with plenty of ideas how this can turn into something at least gratifying...

but i think i read somewhere here an even better approach in similar cases (i believe it was rosada telling a story about throwing a party) - take any "negative" reading as advice that could be a motivator to avoid certain pitfalls rather than give up and let ourselves feel oppressed... sure, this might be exhausting, but maybe also good for us in other ways, as in necessary for our development?
 

marybluesky

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ah, also, i wouldn't ignore the importance of 13 - for me this quite often shows the potential of initially meeting someone special, within a larger group maybe, but hey, one thing leads to another... ;)
I like hexagram 13 although it's not about intimate relationships. It is called "Fellowship" and, as you say, can be a good place to start getting closer to people. My most positive romantic experiences have been with boys I met first in the large group of friends. Plus, the fellowship is valuable on its own.:)
 

legume

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I like hexagram 13 although it's not about intimate relationships. It is called "Fellowship" and, as you say, can be a good place to start getting closer to people.

not about intimate relationships indeed... now, thinking about it some more, the top line could actually even point to becoming "friend-zoned"... so in the context of romance - probably not the best thing i guess.
 

rosada

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Perhaps "taking a concubine for the sake of her son" is advice that a successful relationship needs more than a good feeling between people, it also needs a purpose and a long term commitment?

And what's with the upturned legs and removal of stagnating stuff? Maybe a advice to toss out all those old pictures of the ex?
 

rosada

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Giving this more thought..

Consider that the ruler doesn't actually need to marry a concubine - it would be acceptable for him to carry on doing what ever he wanted. But what if he genuinely loved her? Wouldn't he be willing to turn all the old rules and traditions upside down like a cook upending an old pot and dumping out all the stagnating stuff? And if he genuinely loved her wouldn't he love their child too and want the world to acknowledge him and treats him well? So if he loves the mother than he would also marry her for his son's sake.

Ah. perhaps the I Ching does have a sense of romance after all.
 

legume

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hmm, how about hexagram 37 as a resulting hex or even unchanging? don't think it's been mentioned, but looks like a pretty solid indication of very close partnership? might be wrong of course, shall know more in about half a year, i hope... or just guess :)
 

catchyouri

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Diamanda I mean when someone, for example, asks "will i find a partner in January?"Oh rosada so maybe it's better not to ask I Ching about love at all, or maybe interpret its negative answers in that matter positively and vice-versa :p What could I expect if I Ching considers "being taken as a concubine to bear a son" very positive?
In ancient royal #China I imagine this to be an auspicious opportunity Now well yes if having a child is your value
 

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