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Concepts of literal and metaphoric 'death' applied to relationships

chrislofting

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Hi all,

There are a number of threads on this list that cover issues of relationships and in particular their failures. The prose suggests the following focus:

(1) on values, issues of integrations
(2) on what could have been/is NOT/could be
(3) on an intense proactiveness, intense question in how to figure out what the hell went wrong!

In the I Ching plus focus these questions create a trigram of MOUNTAIN (1 - yin, base line, 2 - yin, middle line, 3 - yang top line)

There are subtlties of course, thus (2) reflects more a CHANGE from the FACT of what was/is/will be to a focus on what could have been/ is NOT/ could be. As such a movement from wind, a focus on cultivation, seeking/becoming influencial etc transforming etc to mountain.

The TRIGRAM of mountain is very GENERAL but reflects:

self-constraint
blocking
stopping (and by extension - issues of death)
discernment (quality control, selective)

When we map-in the emotions of humans we find that it is SADNESS that maps to mountain. Sadness relates to some loss of something. the missing of something, be it a person, thing, or opportunity, as well as leading us into the concept of grief.

The concept of discernment, quality control, reflects the exaggeration of self-constraint etc, we move from the reactive to the proactive and so USE loss as a form of tool to 'cut out', to 'block' influences so to bring out 'qualities' - this is related to helping others as a mentor helps.

In the context of relationships, the linking of mountain to sadness, self-restraint, grief (and with it depression etc) leads us to the notion of these emotions relating to a death of a relationship and so the accompanying process of mourning, of grieving (depression gets into a sense of 'death' of personal identity etc)

Our brains have an issue in that they find it difficult to differentiate the imagined from the real such that a literal death and a metaphoric death will elicit the same emotional/physiological processes that come with the news of someone's physical death - the processes well documented by Elisabeth Kubler-Ross in her ground-breaking book "On Death and Dying".

I have a 'rough' page (as in incomplete! ;-)) on my website covering the steps of grief processing which some of you may find of interest in that these steps seem to apply not just to literal, physical, death (as covered more by Kubler-Ross) but also to metaphoric, or 'mental' death. There will be variations in intensity of emotions etc by the process seems to be the same.

see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/grief.html

I recommend reading Kubler-Ross and in extending the focus on grieving re one's own pending death or that of another to the 'metaphoric' form of death as in a death of a relationship. Recognising the phases can aid in understanding what is 'going on' emotionally/physiologically and so aid in the mind's attempt to come to grips with the situation.

Chris.
 

cal val

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Chris...

Absolutely...grieving the loss of someone still living is exactly the same as grieving the loss of someone who's died...if one allows the process to happen that is. "Letting go" means allowing yourself to grieve. It doesn't mean making a list of all the reasons you shouldn't love this person that you're separated from. It doesn't mean trying to convince yourself you don't feel the love that you do. It means accepting the loss in your life and grieving.

I have a problem with your equating depression with grief. And I think it might simply be a matter of semantics...maybe not. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one point. I know from my own experience (and education) that depression is the result of "blocking" the grieving process...shutting off the emotions, numbing oneself, so that one does not have to experience the pain. The way you've worded it, it sounds like grief and depression go hand-in-hand.

Love,

Val
 
C

candid

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Val,

The sense of loss is the same whether we submit to depression or actualize our mourning. The difference is in our response to this loss. As you said, letting go and mourning is a way to avert depression that often follows any great sense of loss. But the root cause is, I believe, the same in each case: the death of something or someone important to us, a relational loss.

Depression is a relational loss with ourselves. We, in a sense, leave our body and enter a colorless void. We deprive ourselves of pleasure in order to remind ourselves of our meaninglessness, and eventually, our hopelessness.
In a sense, we embrace death as an alternative. We identify the loss of a lover with the loss of ourselves.

Let me ask you, what do you see as a healthy way to mourn the end of an important relationship with a spouse or lover? And, is it possible to escape the depression that so often follows?

Candid
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

you wrote:
> I have a problem with your equating depression with grief.
> And I think it might simply be a matter of semantics...maybe
> not. I'd love to hear your thoughts on this one point. I
> know from my own experience (and education) that depression
> is the result of "blocking" the grieving process...shutting
> off the emotions, numbing oneself, so that one does not have
> to experience the pain. The way you've worded it, it sounds
> like grief and depression go hand-in-hand.
>

at the generic level of trigrams etc so there is a 'sharing of space', as, for example, sadness/grief shares the same space with discernment/quality-control. Only when we move to hexagrams do the differentiations of a trigram in a bottom position, e.g. mountain, vs a top position mountain emerge. In the context of mountain and sadness etc, the 'shared' space as such reflects 'issues dealing with' sadness, grief, etc and as such will include depression in that, using the association of mountain to sadness/grief, one of the properties of mountain IS blocking.


In the more traditional perspectives of trigrams these positional distinctions affecting quality expression are often NOT made, thus the ICPlus general perspective (where we can add more to particularise further) is of:

heaven in lower = perseverence (devotion to self). In upper is perseverence doubled and so singlemindedness. In five phase the focus here is on competitive exchange (five-phase of METAL) and so to refine skills etc (like a samurai and their relationship to their sword, it is all very self-centred)

lake in lower = self-reflection. In upper is self-reflection doubled and so intensity in expression. (note the duality here of literal self-reflect as well as the metaphoric form ( so we have looking inwards as well as self-promotion). Note that self-reflection includes sexual reproduction as well as social reproduction (as in being a 'star', an entertainer where others see themselves, or their imagined selves, 'in' you or you 'in' them - the focus overall is on cooperative exchange (five-phase of METAL), a need for an audience to interact with etc etc - gets into issues of 'copying' etc)

fire in lower = guidance. In upper is guidance doubled and so a sense of direction is established, an ideology, a'map' to follow/impose. This gets us into the emotion of acceptance. In five-phase the focus is on general DISTRIBUTION (FIRE), as we pass-out an ideology etc - this is very 'wholesale' as compared to the retail focus in the five-phase of METAL aka exchange (cooperative, competitive).

thunder in lower = enlightenment (and so the association of surprise, shock etc) In upper enlightenment is doubled to a reflect a sense of awareness, we include understanding connotations of this enlightenment. Emotion link is to surprise. Five-phase link is to production (WOOD), an 'immediate' idea, product etc, something 'new', 'sudden'.

wind in lower = cultivation - passive, reactive. In upper is cultivation doubled and so a sense of seeking to become influencial, proactive. Emotion link is to anticipation and so the expectations of cultivating things, relationships etc five-phase is to production (WOOD) but in the form of re-production, raw into refined etc and so a time requirement, no immediacy.

water in lower = containment - passive, reactive. In upper is containment doubled and so a sense of control, proactive. Emotion link is to rejection, issues on what is taken-in and refused. IN five-phase the association is to consumption (WATER phase)- aka internal distribution - and it is strongly influenced by the EARTH phase of filtering where:

mountain in lower = self-constraint, block, stop. In upper is self-constraint doubled and so a sense of discernment, quality-control, selectivity (overall conditional 'devotion' as compared to earth that is unconditional) Emotion link is to sadness. In five-phase the focus is on conditional filtration (EARTH phase), the use of discernment etc to 'block' the 'bad' and let in the 'good' (and so to balance) - you can see here the roots of an association of mountain to being a 'gate keeper' etc and so a path into other 'realms' etc.

earth in lower = unconditional devotion to another/others. In upper is dualmindedness, total trust in another/others but proactive. Emotion link is to fear (the base level association is to total and utter darkness, a black hole that sucks in everything, including light such that you get no reflection back when you shine the light 'in'). - the fear is delt-with through integrating with a belief sourced 'out there', unconditional acceptance of the guidelines of that belief and so in five-phase the link is to unconditional filtration (EARTH phase), if the Bible says 'dont' then 'dont' - period.

Earth includes such actions as bringing something out of the darkness and into the light (hexagram 35 - compare to its associate in the traditional sequence hexagram 36 where one is uncompromising about the light and so need to 'hide it' in time of others being uncompromising to us! ;-))

Chris.
 

joang

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Hi, All.

I never thought of associating Mountain with depression, but it does fit. I always thought of Keeping Still as being a matter of choice, of self-control. But when one is in the grip of a severe depression, it is extremely difficult to bestir oneself to do anything, even to answer the phone or open the mail. Speaking from past experience, depression does feel like the weight of a mountain is holding you down.

I urge anyone, if you feel the beginning of a depression coming on, muster all your power to keep from sliding down that slippery slope, because it could take you years to climb out of it.

Namaste,
Joan
 
C

candid

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Joan,

Amen to that, sister. And I'll add - getting help is no disgrace, though at such times it can be fearful to even imagine. Reach out to those here also. I've been amazed at how much genuine love and support I've received here during some of my darkest hours.
 

chrislofting

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Hi Joan,

you wrote:

> I never thought of associating Mountain with depression, but
> it does fit. I always thought of Keeping Still as being a
> matter of choice, of self-control. But when one is in the
> grip of a severe depression, it is extremely difficult to
> bestir oneself to do anything, even to answer the phone or
> open the mail. Speaking from past experience, depression
> does feel like the weight of a mountain is holding you down.
>
> I urge anyone, if you feel the beginning of a depression
> coming on, muster all your power to keep from sliding down
> that slippery slope, because it could take you years to
> climb out of it.
>

Sure. a point to note here is that when we bring-in Mountain's opposite, Lake, we bring out the properties and methods of manic-depression so common in artists, where the mania, the intensity in expression, concentration, etc is reflected (!) in Lake - we can see the links of the cycle of mania into depression into mania etc and so the change process reflected in the concept of enantiodromia, yin-into-yang-into-yin etc and so the dynamics of sadness-love etc

From the depression element in Mountain springs the concept of being over-critical of self that can be transformed into an over-criticality focused in mentoring where the 'not that, not that, not that, aha THAT' nature reflects the use of discernment, of being selective, and so bring-out a quality. (One of the properties we have as a species in identifying something is by what it is NOT rather than what it IS. This ability to identify by implication through negation seems to be strongly manifest in Mountain and in the more integrating overall)

Through IDM's identifying the common ground in categorisation systems we can map to the I Ching the persona categories of the MBTI such that to Mountain we have seers, authors, prophets, ringmaster, pedagogues and to Lake we have artist, composer, appreciator, reveller, entertainer, performer.

The 'gateway' in Mountain is to a world 'inside' and in Lake it is bringing that inside outside through artistic expressions (copying, reflecting, interactions with an audience etc). There is an overall sense of quality expressed in BONDING overall, whether it be 'in here' or 'out there' (Bonding being the apparent common ground of Mountain and Lake).

Many who experience depression due to physiological 'hard coding' rather than some context setting it off, pushing a particular button such that a change of context can aid in removing the depression, will often miss the cyclic nature of the disease with its manic element in that it can cover years, not just months of days, and as such is out of conscious awareness.

The benefits of consciousness is that once a 'problem' is identified, consciousness, through the use of imagination, can be used to transform the reactive into the proactive, to USE the elements of depression in a creative way through the use of criticality to bring out quality in others where this act can serve as a positive in the issue of identity that comes with depression.

Our species-nature, a nature that is more reactive, more driven by instinct, lacks the skills of consciousness in 'lifting' (and so note that we can use consciousness to make us feel even worse if we are not careful!) such that we just 'follow the pattern' of the cycle. Consciousness is the source of technology etc and so the 'inventor' of such problem-solvers as Prozac where it is claimed that the prolonged 'highs' in creativity in the West in general over the last 30 years has been due to the 20 million or so manic-depressives having access to Prozac!

The 'next step' in evolution of the species is the training of consciousness alone to elicit physiological change that works as Prozac does ;-) - as such Prozac is lacking in discernment, it is a universal and as such not context-sensitive enough to deal with 'anomolies' in depression such that there is a small percentage of people who suffer side-effects from such drugs.

Chris.
 

cal val

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Candid...

I want to respond to your question about healthy grieving, but first I want to respond to soemthing in Chris's post. It's tantamount to what I have to say to you. I'll be right back...*grin*.

Chris...

I really don't believe it's appropriate to group sadness, grief or any kind of emotion with blocking. Blocking is not a natural occurence. It's a learned unhealthy behavior. "Big boys don't cry," "That's no reason to cry," "I'll give you something to cry about if you don't stop," etc.

Look at babies...they don't start out blocking...when they feel the pain of hunger or cholic or leaving their mother's arms, they cry. They learn to block from parents, siblings and other influential people in their lives.

Pain, sadness, fear, joy, love and on and on are natural emotions and blocking any of them is unnatural behavior.

Candid...

Healthy grieving. How synchronicitous your question. I just spent the day grieving. And how synchronicitous your answer to Joan that getting help is no disgrace. It was through that blessed help that I learned to grieve and when and where to grieve.

I have reached the point where I can be grieving and stop midstream and laugh at the sound of a Mallard duck calling for a mate (it's actually quite comical sounding) and then resume grieving when the pain presents itself again.

This evening I was writing a post in the Danger thread and grieving through every word, then stopped halfway to go to the store to buy cigs. When I was in the store, my cheeks barely dry of the tears I was shedding just minutes before, I was making jokes about "chocolate fixes" and the matchbooks that came in a variety of colors. I sat back down at my computer and the tears began to flow again.

Feelings come easily to me now, and I can forestall the "less socially acceptable" ones...the ones that don't present well at the water cooler at work, etc....you know the ones...until I'm alone and in a safe place to feel.

If blocking is a problem...which I think it is for more men than women, then aiding the grieving along with stimuli works well. Something like spending the weekend locked in your apartment alone looking at pictures of the two of you together, listening to "your song," reading her letters, etc. When the pain starts pushing out, don't choke it back. It's a very uncomfortable emotion when it's released, but it makes for a very uncomfortable existence until it is.

I thinks it's very important to the process to not try to rewrite history. If the same person left you through death, would you love them any less? No. So why try to love them less because they left you in life.

I've experienced a lot of different emotions including a lot of pain, but I don't think I've experienced depression since I went through PTSD...and I'm not so sure depression was a part of that. They share similar symptoms, but in the last 15 years I have not experienced that lethargy, that wanting to sleep my life away that I felt when I was blocking my emotions and, consequently, depressed.

And when I release the pain, just let it out, there's always a renewed vigor after, and I'm all the stronger to conquer the world and pass out smiles to strangers.

Love always,

Val
 

chrislofting

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Hi Val,

you wrote:
>
> Chris...
>
> I really don't believe it's appropriate to group sadness,
> grief or any kind of emotion with blocking. Blocking is not
> a natural occurence. It's a learned unhealthy behavior.
> "Big boys don't cry," "That's no reason to cry," "I'll give
> you something to cry about if you don't stop," etc.
>

the properties of mountain reflect a natural occurence. The issues are in the LOCAL application of that occurence.

> Look at babies...they don't start out blocking

Infants have ALL senses in an undifferentiated form and context then starts to differentiate. An infant will turn their whole being to a particular stimulus - eg a voice - and only over time will they differentiate their auditory sense etc from their other senses such that they do not need to turn to the sound, they can respond without the need to look, touch etc.

IOW infants have not differentiated to the 'trigram' level, to PARTS, when first-born, they reflect at birth the completion of their GENETIC wholeness that is then exposed to the environment to be 'refined' - to adapt locally and so favour parts, differentiations. The infant responds to 'objects and relationships' unconditionally and so reflects 'parallel' processing, instinctive processing lacking in 'refinement'.

Thus in infants their left hemisphere, that which is more parts focused as in differentiating, is less developed than their right hemisphere, that which is more 'holistic' and into integration. As they learn to adapt to the context so the precision of the left 'takes over' and starts to dominate by speech development and issues of handedness etc etc

See my page on sense differentiations and the concept of synesthesia (a common concept in children as in 'this tastes RED'! that can go into adulthood where, for example, sound harmonics are experiences as colours - vision harmonics) - http://www.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/synth.html

The differentation skills of our species mean we move from an undifferentiate whole, through differentiations, to then re-integrate but now with more context-sensitivity.

Blocking works as defence mechanism, something often required in deep sadness/grief in the sense of self-restraint, sure you need to 'get it out' but there are contexts where that can be dangerous to do, and so we keep it in. The problems are when we lack the context-sensitivity involved and idealise, universalise, the blocking to what you mention re 'big boys dont cry' etc etc.

AS we differentiate our senses, our being, so we move from the generic, instinctive WHOLE through phases of ever-increasing differentiations of parts and that will include the trigram levels and so sadness sharing the same space with blocking in that blocking links to stopping that links to death and sadness/grief is a response to loss, be it a person or a missed opportunity etc.

> ...when they
> feel the pain of hunger or cholic or leaving their mother's
> arms, they cry. They learn to block from parents, siblings
> and other influential people in their lives.
>

IOW context, but their ability to block is built-in, it is the application of that ability that can be an issue. A new-born is driven by instincts and they are immediate, and general. Development requires differentiation and that means the range of qualities, emotions, that develop from the 'basics' embedded in fight/flight - see the page on emotion development from the fight/flight dichotomy - http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/emote.html

All of the properties of trigrams reflect a 'built-in' state. Context refines those states thus in some there is no presence of 'blocking', in other a lot, but it is not learnt outright, it has basic roots in our being and our ignorance of those roots etc has allowed us to come up with concepts of unconditional blocking, as in you NEVER do X or more so never EXPRESS X, you 'must' learn 'self-restraint' etc etc.

The POSITIVE side of 'blocking' is the development of discernment and so of quality control (and so hexagram 15 etc). The NEGATIVE side is that if emotions are kept in then an imbalance can occur and become manifest as some form of physiological problem - sickness etc., and so 'blocking' of the lifeforce, of qi (chee) etc.

Blocking is useful in the management of the dynamics of qi where we need to block flow in X to relieve pressure in Y or unblock Z to increase pressure in W and so overall balance things out.

Thus in hexagram 15 the focus is on removing highs and lows, blocking the exaggerations to be 'modest'. Some would interpret this action as 'sad' in that the mourn the 'fun' of the highs! ;-)

Chris.
 
Y

yellowblue

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Chris,

While I find much value in what you offer I have to disagree with my perspective of your input. "hard coding" of depression is based on inbreedng rather than hybridisation.

I believe what we are seeing is not "hard coded" but rather more of a 36 hex situation where one tends to dissemble unconsciously in an attempt to "fit in" or "adapt" to ones environment--- to be accepted. Main stream or "integration" as opposed to "discernment" because under the tyranny of the presiding culture that doesn't "appear" ;-) to be an option. One would have to face "societal death".

This being said, the depression here is "contextual" to the environment, i.e., culture and its mores. However, as an antidote, prozac and such mind numbing drugs act the same as a lobotomy....

I believe there was a twilight zone espisode (probably several) that addressed this decades ago. And many many more main stream and sci fi type movies, episodes have addressed the issue since. Some are open to the message and some aren't. Nonetheless, obviously there is a larger percentage of awareness than is too be expected.

To sum up, I disagree that the depression referred to in the above posts is "hard coded". Basic college courses especially in the sub anthropological courses dispute your theory, or what I take as your theory.

Please dispute me if I am incorrect in my translation of what you are proposing.

Deb
 
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yellowblue

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Chris,

Our posts seems to have crossed, however in review it seems that your concept favors hereditory rather than environmental factors... Debatable on the level of religion and politics.

Even a babe responds to the environment and responds.... the unspoken... just to adapt, and one has to adapt to the environment to survive, which it seems over-rides the hereditory traits. It seems one conforms to survive rather than expects the environment to conform to one's inherent traits.

Deb

My thoughts here
 

joang

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Hi, Chris...
I never had a manic episode. I missed out on the fun part. :cool:

My Great Depression was definitely context based. My brother broke his neck in a fall, which made him a quadroplegiac. I became his sole caregiver, 24 X 7, except for one morning a week. On top of that, my sister and her family moved far away. I felt trapped in a joyless and hopeless existence. Never took Prozac or lithium. Somehow I managed to pull myself out of it by my own bootstraps. Don't ever want to go there again.

Namaste,
Joan
 

joang

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Hmmm...blocking...
Now that I have dredged up that memory...it happened a long time ago...everything in my life happened a long time ago [grin]
As I was saying, in this stream of consciousness moment, I remembered some details of that experience that are relevant to this discussion. The worst part of that depression developed AFTER my brother went to live in a home for the disabled. There were a lot of emotions that I had blocked or attempted to block while I was taking care of him...beginning with the pain of seeing him paralysed in his prime, then resentment of what his presence in my home had done to my life and my intimate relationship with my mate, and finally to guilt for allowing my resentment to show in my attitude toward him. After he left, instead of feeling happy to free again, that was when I fell into the depths of malaise and depression. Could be that the physical demands of my duties simply postponed the malaise until I no longer HAD TO do anything.

Was that relevant? Or am I just rambling?

Namaste and goodnight all,
Joan
 

chrislofting

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Answers to emails of both Deb and Joan,

firstly - Hi Joan,

you wrote:
> Was that relevant? Or am I just rambling?
>

:) there is a place and a time. If its the wrong place and/or wrong time then we block ;-) Context 'pushes' our buttons such that change of context can serve to block or unblock in those situations where the depression etc is context-determined rather than as a genetic anomoly as we more often find in manic-depression.

Deb, you firstly wrote:

> Chris,
>
> While I find much value in what you offer I have to disagree
> with my perspective of your input. "hard coding" of
> depression is based on inbreedng rather than hybridisation.
>

Depression, or any neurocognitive 'anomoly', has roots in at least one of neurological (hardware, wiring problems), endocrinological (hormones into the blood stream), or sociological/psychological areas. This translates as hardware, firmware, and software.

Software issues reflect the influence of context to 'push' buttons. Change the context and things start to improve. Work on the causes and use consciousness to aid in 're-programming' the buttons such that 'next time', if there is one, we know what is going on and can deal with it to some degree OR we know to consciously avoid those sorts of contexts in that we are susceptible to them. Thus we can find Las Vegas, 'exaggerating', intense, manic, and Denver 'depressing' ;-)

Firmware issues are harder to deal with but medication can help if the problems are chronic. For example, use of the drug ecstacy will 'flush' all stored serotonin into the synaptic gaps of neurons etc and generate a generic 'high', as in feeling of integration with others, the environment etc What follows a day or so later is the deepest of 'blues' in that there is not enough serotonin around to do its usual duty, all of the storage areas need filling and that takes time and so the experience of what we call 'depression' emerges.

Irregularities in serotonin management can elicit depression but drugs such as serotonin uptake inhibitors etc can aid in dealing with the depression. The elderly can get depressed about 'nothing' simply due to the fact that their manufacture of serotonin has slowed due to age and so there is less around. This elicits the same sensations as if there was the usual amount around but it was being re-cycled too quickly - our minds experience the sensation as 'depression'.

Hardware issues are a 'pain in the butt!' in that the manic-depression is related to such things a timing problems in the natural oscillations across the hemispheres of the brain - see for example such work as that of Prof Jack Pettigrew on bi-polar disorder (aka manic-depression): http://www.uq.edu.au/nuq/jack/procroysoc.html

Other work shows that the right hemisphere is linked to a sense of the general, the approximate, the unknown, the 'negative' such that EXAGGERATION of its integrating properties can be 'repressive', smothering etc and the overall lack in precision of asserting identity aids in getting 'depressed'. In Pettigrew's work the exaggeration is through timing issues, too much accumulated time in the oscillation is over the 'right' hemisphere and so the general properties of that hemisphere start to influence general thinking.

...and then you wrote:

> Chris,
>
> Our posts seems to have crossed, however in review it seems
> that your concept favors hereditory rather than
> environmental factors... Debatable on the level of religion
> and politics.
>

...not really. these are all rooted in hard-coded distinctions of differentiations and integrations, transcending and transforming. These distinctions are unconscious or at best vague, diffuse, feelings that our consciousness 'particularises', grounds in some particular context. See the IDM material (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/idm001.html)

It is consciousness that is the 'cause' of our idealism, or exaggeration of the sense of the spiritual from its apparent roots in protection of the species to its exploitation to 'go higher' ;-) Thus from the protective nature, its integrating focus, of the spiritual element of the species has emerged the differentiating of that element to be reflecting of someone/something 'out there' that we then try to 'transcend' to - Institutional religion reflects this exploitation of this sense of the spiritual - the RC church is one of the biggest landlords on the planet! ;-) (has not changed since Luther complained about the marketing of 'forgiveness' for one's sins for the 'right' price!)

For comments on politics etc see the particular pages on the exploit/protect dichotomy, a synonym for differentiate/integrate, transcend/transform (http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/exploit.html)

Do you think the 'two party' system biases are by 'chance'? no. We are hard-coded such that if we work in extremes of the realm of METAL, competitive/cooperative exchange, so out pops an overally-demanding focus on the binary, the EITHER/OR - Democrat XOR Republican in the US of A, Labor or Liberal here in Australia (but with emerging 'third' parties as well)

The method we use 'in here' to process meaning is projected into 'out there', into the immediate context and so is reflected in the dynamics of society. There will be local 'nuances' etc but the generic forms are the same (and the so ability to use the IC, a specialisation that reflects those forms, to ponder on personal issues as well as social issues)

Focus on the general neurocognitive processes and out pops all of the dynamics of the specialisations of capitalism, socialism, conservationism, interventionism - we reflect the properties and methods of the neuron overall! ;-)

As mentioned in the above links, the works of Marx, Lenin, etc reflected socialist ideas exaggerated to be idealist. The precision of idealism is manifest in the singlemindedness where we REPLACE something with something considered 'better'. This is the realm of METAL in five-phase, the domination of the properties and methods of the trigrams of Heaven and Lake.

These EXAGGERATIONS, as manifest in the Capitalism of the prior to and in the 1850s that Marx wrote about, elicited a need for balance. Socialism (balancing the exploitation of Labour, people) and Conservationism (balancing the exploitation of natural resources - the 'green' movements) cannot 'replace' Capitalism, only 'calm it down' a bit ;-)

Marx et al failed to recognise this in that their precise minds we too focused on details and so on a mental state that favoured 'replacement' as the only solution to the 'problems' of Capitalism.

Move 'up' to politics and the SAME patterns operate. The dynamic of replacement is reflected in the dynamics of Democrat/Republicans, but they cannot wipe-out the other even though they try! ;-) (a dictatorship reflects the monism focus but over time it collapses and we get back to 'oscillations' ;-))

The association of socialists/conservationists is developing all over the planet - as the democrats in the USA found out to their loss in the last election, they did not consider Nader's greens as a useful partner and so lost votes to them and so lost the election overall, socialists still have a problem recognising that conservationism is just as 'strong' as their perspectives but also distinct from their perspectives - IOW what works is a partnership, an INTEGRATION, a PAIR, rather than attempts to incorporate conservationism IN socialism or visa versa.

The overall forces of balance are the socialist/conservationist elements. The forces of exaggeration are the capitalist elements with some 'balance' imposed from within the capitalist context through the use of government interventionism re interest rate setting etc. The capitalists would prefer no filters at all other than 'market forces' and so allowing for what gives them their surplus value, opportunities in the form of anomolies, imbalances that can be 'milked' before the balance-police turn up or too many others turn up to 'feed' and so reduce the possible gains.

Compared to the unbridled nature of 17th to 19th century capitalism, our present form is almost 'socialist'! ;-)

ALL of this dynamics stems from the properties and methods of the neuron - the method we use to derive meaning ;-) - and since IDM shows us the roots of I Ching in these dynamics so we can use the IC as our source of metaphor/analogy in dealing with all of these issues.

Our instincts reflect a hard-coding of GENERAL behaviours developed over MILLIONS of years. Our habits reflect the use of consciousness etc to 'refine' those instincts within the lifetime of the individual (genes work over generations to do this).

Our instincts respond to the stimuli of objects/relationships, patterns of differentiating/integrating, patterns of yang/yin such that the GENERAL properties and methods of 'out there' are 'in here' and we interact through resonance - and so the ability to sympathise, to empathise, using a shared set of qualities we have as species-members.

Note that we can determine a path of the characteristics of differentiations/integrations all the way down to the properties and methods we associate with particle Physics - ie the dynamics of fermions/bosons - see http://pages.prodigy.net/lofting/symmetry.html

> Even a babe responds to the environment and responds.... the
> unspoken... just to adapt, and one has to adapt to the
> environment to survive, which it seems over-rides the
> hereditory traits.

not really. adaptations REFINES these traits in the form of habit formation. This interaction gives more choices in expressions depending on context, and so context-sensitivity is the focus. The more context-sensitive you are the easier it is to integrate with a context and so move 'smoothly' within that context but we cannot be born with every possible context 'hard coded', what we can be born with is an ability to recognise and manipulate a set of GENERAL qualities and so that is hard-coded and we link that set to every context and elicit 'meaning' through creating labels we use to communicate the details of that context to others.

In the I Ching the set of qualities are represented by the trigrams/hexagrams/dodecagrams that serve as indicators of the qualities, metaphors for them in that they 'carry' the qualities.

The development of consciousness has led to our attempts to impose ourselves on nature rather than recognising we are part of nature, cooperation over competition in the long run ;-)

Chris.
 
C

candid

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Joan, I can strongly relate to your experience with a loved one?s disability and the complete dedication toward assuming responsibility for that person?s well being. There?s no room, it seems, to provide for one?s own emotional well being during such times. And when the levy finally does break, all those powerful emotions rush in like a flood. Add to that the guilt and sense of failure. I can indeed relate.

I rarely watch TV but I did catch a program about surfers who seek the biggest waves on earth. Waves which peak at 40 feet! The situation you described reminds me of that overwhelming natural power, crashing over the rider with unimaginable force, wiping them out, endangering their very lives.

As with yourself, I never wish to return to that debilitating place.

Val, thanks for your response. If I hear what you?re saying, healthy mourning isn?t clinging to the sorrow but allowing the grief its due. Its allowing guilt-free laughter as a means of balancing out the depth of emotions with enough levity to relax the stress of mourning, even if only for a quick trip to the store and a friendly laugh with others. There is no obligation to suffer beyond what is natural.

I do not believe that depression is hard wired, as Chris has said, at least not in most cases. Most often it is an erosion of the banks which contain all one imagines themselves to be. It doesn?t happen overnight, but takes a long while of repeated attempts to undermine one?s value, and one?s right to be happy in spite of perceived shortcomings.

Depression is self denial, self infliction and self absorption. It?s a state of mind created to justify one?s weakness and to punish one?s self for failure. It takes time and effort to develop, and even more to extricate one?s self from the overwhelming ocean and return to a balanced emotional outlook on the world and prevailing forces.

Candid
 

cal val

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Joan...

I'm sending you lots of love and a tight hug. And here's some for your brother too.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Deb,

Prozac is not mind numbing. It promotes brain cell regrowth.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/health/503629.stm

This is just one of a gazillion articles on the subject. Plug in "prozac brain cell regrowth" into google, and you'll find reading material for days.

Joan...

You might be happy to learn that chronic stress, which you clearly experienced in your situation, is a contributing factor to depression.

Here's another hug and a lot more love.

Love,

Val
 
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candid

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As an anti-depressant addict for over 5 years (including Prozac), with no psychological counseling and minimal medical overseeing, I can say that going off them was the best thing I've ever done to regain my healthy emotional outlook. For me, it was a mind numbing drug, which allowed my inner world to fester with disease, and my outer world to be a complete contradiction of inconsistencies. Couldn't get me back on them for love nor money. I went off them cold turkey, which I know is not at all recommended. After two weeks of feeling turned inside out, my clarity began to return, and I began dealing with the emotions that had been whitewashed for a half decade. It wasn?t easy but it was easier than living at the bottom of an ocean without breathing apparatus.
 

hilary

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Don't know where to start... just a fragment...

About mountains and 'blocking'. They do also contain, and the core possibility from this is Release (#40). The noble one does not issue forth from her situation - she doesn't go rushing out like thunder to stir up new things. As such, Keeping Still is the opposite of distraction or escapism, and the antidote to ingrained, automatic reactions.

Encouraged (OK, shouted at) by 52, unchanging, I tried sitting with a challenge for all of 20 minutes yesterday rather than gallopping off to ask for input from other people. Given this glimmering of an opening, inspiration visited at once - and I'm hopeful that if I persuade myself to spend a little longer sitting quietly with 'what' and 'why', then 'which way' will arise by itself.

I think what I'm describing here is hexagram 4 with line 2 moving (another reading from yesterday). Candid's experience sounds, superficially anyway, like another outer mountain, #18. Hope that isn't too glib.

Hugs all round.
 
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candid

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Hilary, not glib at all. I think its was 49 inside and 18 outside. Then 43, and finally 24.

4:2? Sounds like a reading a moderator might receive.
wink.gif
 

joang

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Candid, you nailed it when you mentioned the "sense of failure". That indeed was a major, major component of the depression. And with that feeling of failure came the overly self-critical aspect of depression that Chris spoke of... although I tend to do that even when not depressed. Maybe I'm hardwired that way. :)

Val, thank you for the love and hugs. My brother passed away about 10 years ago. Fortunately, we patched things up and I visited him regularly long before he died, so I'm not still carrying that guilt burden around with me now.

Namaste,
Joan
 

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It is simplistic I know, but all grief of loss stems from attachment. The grieving process is how we let go. Depression is a form of holding on.

The same process happens sometimes when we want to sleep. We often choose to hold onto our thoughts in spite of the need and desire to sleep. Sometimes the narrow interests of the ego, trump the basic interests of the being as a whole.

Detachment is not an answer. It is like dealing with pain or an itch. Avoiding does not work well. One has to go through it, surrender to it. In the surrender one can let go.
 
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Hi Bob,

I'm failing to see why one must surrender to it, or how surrendering makes it easier to let go.

What is it exactly that we would be surrendering to?

Detachment from the object of unrest seems like a sensible way to ?let it go?. Why do you believe that detachment is not an answer?

Candid
 

wanderer

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Candid,

It is not ususally productive to generalize, as I did, but the concept I believe is well founded.
Detachment can be effective in avoidance. In AA they say to stay out of slippery places. And as a practical matter, that is good advice.

Acceptance though is the first step to real healing. Fighting it, avoiding it, ignoring it (whatever it may be) separates it from us. Facing it, surrendering, letting go incorporates it into us.

A long time ago I went through Rolfing (a deep muscle liberation), and I learned a lot about pain. When one is tense, the pain is unbearable. When one relaxes or lets go (as difficult as that might be) the pain seemingly goes through us, or we go through the pain.

Just a humble opinion.

wanderer
 
C

candid

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Hi Wanderer,

Ok, I can see better what you're saying. If I understand correctly, you're saying, acceptance of it (non-denial) as it really is is an important first step.

I've suffered through decades of intense neck pain, and there seemed to be no relief in sight. Two things I've done in these last two years to vastly improve the situation was 1) to stop referring to it as mine ( my headache or neck pain) 2) to power through the pain with muscle building exercise, which created a better muscular support for the weak link in my spine. The improvement is about 85%.

Wouldn't "1" be considered a form of denial? "It is not my pain. It is just pain, but I lay no claim to it. I do not own it."

And "2" would be, not only going through it (the pain) but confronting it head on.

Your Rolfing experience sounds more like letting go of the pain, yielding to its departure, rather than yielding to acceptance of suffering. This creates distance between the pain and the self. This sounds like detachment (separation) to me, not denial.

Just my thoughts.

Candid
 

cal val

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Hi Candid...

What you did intellectually and experientially are two different things. It's a matter of semantics here.

Owning your pain means to take responsibility for it and do something about it. That's what you did experientially with muscular pain.

Emotional pain is different. It will only go away if you feel it. The only way to "detach" from it is to feel it. You can stuff it, but it's always there, always in control...until you accept it, own it, surrender to it and feel it. Allowing it to express itself liberates it.

Denial is not an intellectual action. It's an experiential behavior. Same with coming out of denial. I know the difference...I've done both. It's one thing to say, "Okay my parents made this mistake and that mistake." That's the intellectualization of the experience. It's quite another to feel the pain you or they didn't allow you to feel at the time of their mistakes. Not feeling it at the time doesn't mean detaching from it. It just means postponing it.

Love,

Val
 

cal val

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Candid...

Just had another thought. There's an intellectual process of "owning" one's pain that leads eventually to the experiential process.

It really starts with language. Owning your feelings is to use the "I" word...

I feel happy. I feel sad. I want love. I feel love. I feel angry. blah blah blah...

rather than say, "You hurt me" "you make me happy" "this makes me sad"

with the "You" word you're giving away responsibility for your feelings, and, therefore, your own power. With the "I" word you're accepting responsibility for your feelings.

Love,

Val
 
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candid

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Val,

See, I view it just the opposite. I say, 'this is not "my" pain.? It is pain, but I lay no claim to it as being mine. By laying claim to it we become attached to it. I may feel pain but I don't claim it as mine. This allows detachment from the pain. Its the difference between pain and suffering. Pain management isn't denial of pain, its just detaching it from being associated with our identity.

This is the same for emotional pain as it is for physical pain. At least as I see it.

Candid
 
C

candid

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To take this thought further, whatever we associate with as being ourselves, that we become. IE: I AM depressed. I AM hurting. I AM a wreck! I AM disabled. Or, I AM free. I AM able.

One of the blunders I catch myself mumbling is - "I have a terrible memory for names and numbers." Great, Candid, just keep telling yourself that and you'll make it truer.

At the risk of sounding like psycho-babble, the unconscious doesn't know the difference between a truth and a non-truth. It will believe what we tell it and then act in accordance with it.

Gotta run. The task master calleth.

Candid
 

wanderer

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Obviously one of the problems is that we all have to use the crudest of all tools, words. Perhaps we are each describing the proverbial elephant. After all can our true experience be all that different.

Steven Levine writes in "A gradual Awakening" that meditation is like being in front of a railroad track watching box cars go by. Inevitably our mind gets on one of the boxcars and heads down the track. The key to good meditation is not to judge this occurrence, but to just notice it and bring one's attention back to the car in front of one at the moment. It is in the process of noticing that progress is made.

The "I, you, me" phenomenon is not all that different. The ego is and wants to remain all powerful. It tends to get nervous and intruding when it does not feel in control. And it (giving it a personality
happy.gif
) is extremely clever. We have all had the experience when we are say dancing, and everything is going great, and we realize that everything is going great, and in that moment we fall. It is the ego taking control so that we do not lose our self for even a moment.

For everything that you get, there is something lost. Everything has it's advantages and it's disadvantages. This is a major lesson of the
"I Ching". Disassociation, separation, denial and other techniques of pain (suffering) control have great advantages and disadvantages. In some strange similarity it is like damming up water.
It can work effectively, and even be necessary at times, but in the long run (time is long) it will find a way to equilibrium.

It is unlikely that any of us will in this lifetime find the place of complete oneness with the world. Yet it is also clear that we can notice the difference and make our feeble attempts at such. By embracing what keeps us separated (ie pain, suffering, attachment) whenever we are able, even for the briefest moment, we exercise our ability to do so more often. When we dissolve the boundaries we actualize our part in the whole.

wanderer
 

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