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Concerning hex. 38

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svenrus

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It occurs to me that the advice given at hex. 38, Kui, could very well be to distinguish. The tag as well being Distinction. Rutt got Espy, Lynn Contrariety, Shaughnessy Perversion, Legge Division [sect. iii, note on hex. xxxviii].

This is also suggested as a question because I'm not into ancient chinese glyph's. Huang (who got Diversity as tag) explain Kui as ".... eyes do not look at each other...". From my intuitive understanding out of my experiences with this hexagram this could also be: looking with different eyes, or distinguishing ?
 

anemos

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looking with different eyes, or distinguishing ?

hexagram38-1-1.jpg




people3-1-1-1.jpg
 
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svenrus

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Well, maybe "Distinction" as tag for hex. 38 just fitted to my personal experience and not to the reality of the translation made by sinologists of the ancient ideogram Kui.
On the other hand: No question no answer.
Thanks for responses
 

Trojina

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Well, maybe "Distinction" as tag for hex. 38 just fitted to my personal experience and not to the reality of the translation made by sinologists of the ancient ideogram Kui.
On the other hand: No question no answer.
Thanks for responses


But you are right IMO. Hexagram 38 does contain the meaning of distinguishing ...that is one way of putting it anyway. The object in 38 is not to meld seamlessly into the other, whatever that is, but to see and be aware of difference, and that can be called distinguishing. I think that's what others are saying by showing you eyes, different ways of looking at something. 'Distinction' is also a word that can be used for the feelings/experience of 38. For example I once asked about a difficult weekend ahead socially and got 38uc. That was helpful in that it reminded me of the reality of distinction and difference, that it's okay, that it's not always necessary to join at a deep level, but in superficial things one can find common ground and get along well enough That is where the topic of the weather comes in so useful. :) If at a time of 38 one aimed to overcome all fundamental differences of view and really deeply mesh then it would be difficult...but distinguishing between their way and your way can help you at 38 times.


At 38 times the other can look like one of these :odd: pretty 'distinct' in his own individuality isn't he, he is him and I am me and we are distinct....thankfully ?

Of course it can also refer to inner states and there I can see how the ideas of distinguishing and distinction are useful. One might be looking at the same scenario from two completely different sets of priorities that don't mingle. For example.......erm staying at the party till 3am maybe bad for my health but good for my chances of getting closer to someone. I imagine there are better examples.....

I don't think others were disagreeing with you here just representing the ideas visually.

I'm thinking of what other hexagrams might signify the act of distinguishing, of making distinctions. The only other one I can think of that might show that is hexagram 60 but that is more to do with measure .
 

anemos

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Well, maybe "Distinction" as tag for hex. 38 just fitted to my personal experience and not to the reality of the translation made by sinologists of the ancient ideogram Kui.
On the other hand: No question no answer.
Thanks for responses

Sorry for not putting words but only pictures. I was studying all day long and words were not easy, but I see your point ( pun non indented ) and agree with it. Some points trojan makes is what i'ld say too.
 

meng

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I associate distinction more with 10, 13 and 60, and of all the titles for 38, I still like Opposition the best, probably Bradford's Estrangement after that. Opposition can make one feel as though all eyes are upon them, and it can and probably should lead to distinguishing.

To me, there is tension in 38, but not necessarily bad, just different. I used to wonder, well if two people were in opposition, and they both held firm to their position, that would lead to a stale mate, or a lot battling. So opposition must have more potential in it than simply holding to your position, and that's where distinguishing helps create a sensible resolution. He is he and I am me. It makes being opposites not necessarily adversaries. Opposition is a good thing, in so many ways. Resistance builds strength, disagreements challenge minds and egos.
 
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bradford

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The reason I posted the link about Stereopsis was to suggest that even within our own heads we hold at least two different points of view. The right eye and the left eye see things differently. They don't agree. But it's precisely because of this that we can perceive depth so well. So too with differences of opinion. Each of us is unique. The model suggests that we can explore this for greater depth in our experience. This is not the same as an extreme relativism that suggests that all points of view are equally valid, but it does suggest that our disagreements and our uniquenesses may have something to teach us. From the Da Xiang: 君子以同而異 - the young noble associates, and yet is separate.
 

meng

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The reason I posted the link about Stereopsis was to suggest that even within our own heads we hold at least two different points of view. The right eye and the left eye see things differently. They don't agree. But it's precisely because of this that we can perceive depth so well. So too with differences of opinion. Each of us is unique. The model suggests that we can explore this for greater depth in our experience. This is not the same as an extreme relativism that suggests that all points of view are equally valid, but it does suggest that our disagreements and our uniquenesses may have something to teach us. From the Da Xiang: 君子以同而異 - the young noble associates, and yet is separate.

You mention this in your 13.2 commentary too - "But no more different than one of your eyes from the other, giving disparity that allows a perception of depth."

Nice. Wonderful thought, that disparity allows depth of perception.
 
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svenrus

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Maybe I should take a closer look on hex. 10, 13 and 60. And I can see that there is a great difference between opposition and distinction....
Had been a little afraid of ending up in hairsplitting.
:lalala:
 

meng

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Maybe I should take a closer look on hex. 10, 13 and 60. And I can see that there is a great difference between opposition and distinction....
Had been a little afraid of ending up in hairsplitting.
:lalala:

And I was a little afraid of sounding opposing. :D

my reasoning:

10 discriminates (makes distinctions) between high and low.

13 makes distinctions between clans and species.

60 makes distinctions in pitch and rhythm, in volume and tone.
 

anemos

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I still like svernus initial thought. Opposition and estrangement seems to have its roots to perceive ourselves distinct . Its the us vs them thing were our views are different for them's and there is a conflict. It may feel like us or Identity/ individuality is threaten and that might lead to be a bit defensive (38.6) or "blind" to the other's pov. So, looking though another perspective, like we are different yet we are not in danger to lose our-self we can cooperate in a more harmonic way and even learn new things.

there is a sense of fear, discrimination, prejudice in that hex, imo, and we look at other through those lens. What you all said, its what h38 highlights, I agree. Maybe distinguish is not the best word for 38 but subtly exist as a root of the "problem" and also as the way to overcome it- all those things you said so far.

Many years ago I was getting h38 very often around specific matter and I felt powers pulling and pushing me towards one direction or another and I recall I was trying to distinguish those different wills because it appeared to be a conflict of interest within myself. I took Lake as all those feeling and Fire as the need to shed some light to that mess .. its like the bipolarity inside becomes apparent.

Our vision is blurred from other factors and is biased from them so making that clear, that sometimes, what we see its not what really exists out there.
 

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i reading my post again and laughs because so many others hex pop up ... :rolleyes:
 

meng

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All of those negative emotions and circumstances can, at times, be part of the 38 dynamic, but it may also be two fellows sitting at a bench, playing an entertaining game of chess.
 

bradford

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The problem with even using the word opposition it that it evokes so many contradictory models of what's going on. There a the kind where two forces are confronting each other and a kind where they are far apart and having nothing to do with each other. There are complementary opposites like yin and yang that must coexist and others like like light and dark that can't coexist.
 

anemos

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All of those negative emotions and circumstances can, at times, be part of the 38 dynamic, but it may also be two fellows sitting at a bench, playing an entertaining game of chess.

Sure, yes !! With study buddies, in order to check our arguments, we used to play the "devil's advocate" game. Not that difficult to put ourselves in that role as we are very diverse characters, yet it was fun. As a matter of fact , at the beginning, that diversity was daunting and we all -as we reveled later-were worried whether it was going to work. Even now, after a long time, when someone asks me to describe that group, the first words I would say is " We are very different... "
 

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Brad, I was pondering on your choice of the word "estrangement" as more appropriate for h38. Is that because you wanted to stress the disadvantages of luck of diversity? In some lines the word alone give the feeling of something is missing, is not complete ,there is not a reference point .. in a loose way.
 

bradford

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Brad, I was pondering on your choice of the word "estrangement" as more appropriate for h38. Is that because you wanted to stress the disadvantages of luck of diversity? In some lines the word alone give the feeling of something is missing, is not complete ,there is not a reference point .. in a loose way.

As long as we don't forget that there is almost always a measure of irony in the Yi. Being different is also a good thing. Recall Krishnamurti's statement: "It is no measure of health to be well adjusted to a profoundly sick society." Further, being different and becoming ever more different is also called evolution, and this leads to diversity, which is usually a measure of health and resilience in an ecosystem.
 

meng

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The problem with even using the word opposition it that it evokes so many contradictory models of what's going on. There a the kind where two forces are confronting each other and a kind where they are far apart and having nothing to do with each other. There are complementary opposites like yin and yang that must coexist and others like like light and dark that can't coexist.

True, but that's not the fault of the word but the interpretation of the word, which I agree again is very common. I used to do it with opposition too, until I kept running into situations where I stood on the other side of the fence (net, board, field, etc), with the intent to beat my opponent, without sacrificing good sportsmanship.

Opposition works for me. Estrangement, almost, except, as in the sportsmanship spirit, there's no estrangement, but there is opposition. Opposition can provide a platform for non-hostile engagement; estrangement can not engage, because they are estranged.

es·trange (-strnj)
tr.v. es·tranged, es·trang·ing, es·trang·es
1. To make hostile, unsympathetic, or indifferent; alienate.
2. To remove from an accustomed place or set of associations.
[Middle English estraungen, from Old French estrangier, from Latin extrnere, to treat as a stranger, disown, from extrneus, foreign; see strange.]
es·trangement n.
es·tranger n.
Synonyms: estrange, alienate, disaffect
These verbs refer to disruption of a bond of love, friendship, or loyalty. Estrange and alienate are often used with reference to two persons whose harmonious relationship has been replaced by hostility or indifference: Political disagreements led to quarrels that finally estranged the two friends. His persistent antagonism alienated his wife.
Disaffect usually implies discontent, ill will, and disloyalty within the membership of a group: Colonists were disaffected by the royal governor's actions.

That is not always my view of 38, though it is sometimes. Opposition, on the other hand, works with or without alienation. In fact it works much friendlier and generally more productive than being estranged, where communication is thwarted by distance.

But that's only my view.
 

anemos

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the young noble associates, and yet is separate.

Estrangement and the above confuse me. maybe its a language barrier yet the image is of someone departing or being alone . I understand what yo say about evolution etc, yet I don't fully understand your response on my question.
 

Trojina

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Sure, yes !! With study buddies, in order to check our arguments, we used to play the "devil's advocate" game. Not that difficult to put ourselves in that role as we are very diverse characters, yet it was fun. As a matter of fact , at the beginning, that diversity was daunting and we all -as we reveled later-were worried whether it was going to work. Even now, after a long time, when someone asks me to describe that group, the first words I would say is " We are very different... "


But you were in the same group playing the same game, hence I think the kind of diversity you refer to here might easily be the diversity of 13 rather than 38. I mean to play the same game you are both accepting/understanding the framework of that game, I'd like to say you are both operating within the same paradigm but not sure that's the right word....what I mean to say is you both agree that what you are doing is playing a game. I'm seeing a hex 38 cartoon scenario as one person thinking a situation is a game where the other will be thinking along completely different lines 'what game :confused: is this a game, I thought this was.....?' There must be existing cartoons of this kind of scenario....it can be the basis of great comedy

It's a whole different landscape. The estrangement comes from more than difference of opinion...it's a whole different view of the landscape where different things are noticed as important etc etc.
 

bradford

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Estrangement and the above confuse me. maybe its a language barrier yet the image is of someone departing or being alone . I understand what yo say about evolution etc, yet I don't fully understand your response on my question.

I wasn't really speaking to your question here, only to the general 38 idea of distinct points of view, represented by eyes looking in different directions. BTW, the word I translated "associates" is tong2 同, the word often translated Fellowship in Gua 13.
 

anemos

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But you were in the same group playing the same game, hence I think the kind of diversity you refer to here might easily be the diversity of 13 rather than 38. I mean to play the same game you are both accepting/understanding the framework of that game, I'd like to say you are both operating within the same paradigm but not sure that's the right word....what I mean to say is you both agree that what you are doing is playing a game. I'm seeing a hex 38 cartoon scenario as one person thinking a situation is a game where the other will be thinking along completely different lines 'what game :confused: is this a game, I thought this was.....?' There must be existing cartoons of this kind of scenario....it can be the basis of great comedy

It's a whole different landscape. The estrangement comes from more than difference of opinion...it's a whole different view of the landscape where different things are noticed as important etc etc.

Its my believe that in any example we bring there is more than one hex that its laws affect it. So , if we talk about a group and we say its 13 and nothing else and everything happens there is what 13 describes ,it is satisfying for me. Actually in the example i mention no 13 or 38 might one say its the hexs pop out. The group was for a 58 reason but there is a clear s 61 that represents that group , or 41, or 42 or 37 or 11. I can give a good explanation for all of them.

I always ask a specific question : " if that thing is not the A-explanation I believe, then what else can be ? "

We are diverse in many ways and we have conflicting / opposite ideas specifically and regarding the subject matter but also totally different ways of thinking , participating ,discussing. There are lots of different paradigms within that field and basically we advocate very different ones Despite our different points of views and because other disposition it seemed to be a fertile soil to be able to crash-test our ideas without fighting or defending our ideas as if our whole being was in danger.

I had to unsubscribe myself from some threads in another forum ( another 13 group) were a question/ clarification a member asked from fellows participants evolve in a discussion that some participants acting in a very competitive way and the discussion derailed to "who is smarter" game...and we are talking about a subject that people have spend years of studies , the first thing they say is " we still know so little .. almost nothing"

Re the study group, we are opponent because we are fighting for a place in the top range and tomorrow for other places too. And , I believe, in any 13 there is a 38 , in the sense that our survival instincts makes us fight for our life... or our uniqueness. Also in any 38 there is a 13 , because we know that alone we can achieve less than if we join forces... for a short time, a longer one ..etc.

anyways, I brought that example because there is a strong 38 in that team. For instance I really find single-minded and limited the theories and assumptions of a perspective one of the members suscribes and I fully aware that he finds my own preferences silly, unscientific and obscure. But in that specific group its not a problem... in other its casus belli
 

anemos

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I wasn't really speaking to your question here, only to the general 38 idea of distinct points of view, represented by eyes looking in different directions. BTW, the word I translated "associates" is tong2 同, the word often translated Fellowship in Gua 13.

i see. Still that word perplex me as I can't see any ground for potential association. I assumed that must be a special meaning in that word and the ways you use it there in US that I couldn't find in dictionaries, hence my question. Its a h38 situation where the obstruction and potential opposition is that you are a native speaker while I'm a learner i.e my view could be limited.
 

bradford

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i see. Still that word perplex me as I can't see any ground for potential association. I assumed that must be a special meaning in that word and the ways you use it there in US that I couldn't find in dictionaries, hence my question. Its a h38 situation where the obstruction and potential opposition is that you are a native speaker while I'm a learner i.e my view could be limited.

I would avoid the word Obstruction for 38 as well. It's also a really bad word to use for 12. Obstruction is 39.
38 is more about Divergence, moving farther away from consensus.
 

anemos

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38 is more about Divergence, moving farther away from consensus.

That way , I understand the "distance" you probably meant by choosing the word estrangement. the depiction of the Normal distribution bell comes in mind and also the outliers in a scatterplot that don't follow the general tendency.

My stat teacher adviced us not to disregard any model when noticing too many outliers , because maybe they have a story of their own to tell and by finding it our understanding why things happen the way the do may be enriched and new improve predictive model can be constructed. Shades of hex 38 , i see from here.

btw, by obstruction I meant the gap for not sharing the same language not in a h39 way.
 

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