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Crisis of faith

M

meng

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Maybe it is like that. Looking back, it is as if everything had to happen the way it did. It is what shows of your tao, you live and you think a lot of it is random. You just happen to take a turn here, a turn there, something happens to cross your path, so you take one of many possible roads. Could just as well have gone in another direction. It seems...

Universe came into being in this same way. Seemingly random, but I think random is much more that we think it is. Like the coins which fall down in a random way. But a fraction of a difference in the side they "choose", or tao chooses for them, changes the reading. That fraction, that is why random is the only way to make tao work. No decision can ever match that tiny push of that tiny difference, pushing fate exactly where it 'wants' to go.

Knowing that 'something' much bigger than me chooses my direction is a wonderful thought to me. It doesn't feel like cold predestination, but as if I really am part of universe. Looking back I know it could not have happened otherwise. Looking forward I know I will go where I am supposed to go. My own decisions are an important part of that as well. But more I can 'let them happen' and less 'make them happen', the closer I will get to my true destination. Letting happen does not mean sit back and just wait, it is something very active. When you sit back, you become victim of decisions of things or people outside yourself. Letting happen feels rather like "letting myself make them" instead of "making myself make them".
It's like we're given the plot, of a life, a decade, a year, a day or hour, to 'act out'. We're given the nature of the character we play, and the general script. How we play it is our doing. A character who is especially prone to doing something negative may consciously choose to use that same moment and energy to do something positive. If you know the problem before it arises, you can prepare to take corrective action before the time it arrives. But sure as heck, there's a deck of cards we'll each be dealt tomorrow. It's up to us how we play them.
 

elvis

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Neurology has not yet developed a science of consciousness .
It is going on. See such as the journal of consciousness studies. The IDM work covers the emergence of consciousness as an agent of mediation and as such an originator of language. The more refined the development the more the language moves from a mythic format to a directed format. You appear to know nothing of this so your assertion above is a bit weak.

The I Ching is derived from pre-historical teachings that were
based on knowledge that included many levels of consciousness,
later represented by number , symbol and language.
...and your evidence for this?.... such specialist metaphors as the I Ching reflect more so the use of brain dynamics at an ignorant ,ad-hoc, level of understanding over generations.

From current neuroscience work we can map out all of the CLASSES of consciousness where local contexts give us an instance of consciousness and a unique being.

The range of the five physical senses in most contemporary humans is
limited. Compared to our ancestors, it seems likely the range has
declined over the centuries, although there have been small groups
who have known ways to develop the range of different senses.
The issue with the sensory systems is synaesthesia issues that can develop - reflects a mix of genetic diversity or local development issues for some senses over others.

However, what we find regardless of this 'mixing' process is that the neurology remains constant such that we can map out classes of meanings independent from any specific sensory system and as such usable by all of them. The IDM work does such and it maps directly to the I Ching material.

Furthermore, ALL secondary harmonics of senses (e.g. colours of vision or chords of audition etc) translate to EMOTIONAL representations of such. Thus the EIC does not care what sense or mixes of senses one uses, it just works off the natural translation of those senses data into emotional responses.

Perhaps the most sensitive human sense is hearing. Most humans have
a ten octave range; whereas in the case of sight, a two octave range.
We see in three colors, while other species see in four and include the ultraviolet and infrared spectrum. In the case of smell, some dogs have 100 times the range of humans: a dog can sense a drop of a drug in a swimming pool.
The superiority of audition over vision is well known and is brought out in the increased resolution power of hearing as compared to trying to extract RGB details from a hue. As I have said, the NEUROLOGY makes no distinctions - as far as it is concerned all is in the form of frequencies/wavelengths/amplitudes and THOSE elicit emotional responses to data that we can extract using the EIC.


There are finer senses than the five that humans have and can develop, just as there are many levels of consciousness that are possible for us.
The above is meaningless without specific details.

It is not surprising that oral transmission and the precise use of sound formulas (among other practices) are part of the traditional means for learning texts such as the I Ching.
it makes no difference what specific sensory system, or combinations of, is used - the neurology will categorise as covered in the IDM work
The grounding of meaning is in patterns of differentiating and integrating and these become specialised into such as sensations of wholeness, partness, static relatedness, dynamic relatedness and their composites. LOCAL context will than take the classes an instantiate them by links to a local context through use of labels.

The FEELINGS generated introduce sensations we can describe as blending(wholes), bonding (static relationships, sharing of space), bounding(parts, boundaries distinctions). and binding (dynamic relationships, sharing of time). These are then extendable into composite forms.

Thus we can identify a path of development of meaning FREE of sensory system particulars and seeding emotional responses to experiences. Thus your focus on oral traditions or visual traditions or olfactory traditions or kinaesthetic traditions or gustatory traditions are irrelevant in that they all translate into the neurology patterns identified (our brains will SHARE sensory data, use the SAME neurons to process data and as such reflect the conversion of particular data to a shared format of frequencies/wavelengths/amplitudes). Let me know if you need references ;)

You write:The language property of the I Ching allows us to see ANYTHING In the I Ching since, as a language, it is capabable of representing anything. Issues are then in the details and THAT is supplied by personal consciousness having access to names/dates/places etc etc
Who is doing the seeing?
The development of consciousness as an agent of mediation allows for communications through the use of language. The format is through resonance - as we experience in the first language, our emotions. It is this language of emotions that allows the EIC to get an assessment of a context and translate such into I Ching hexagrams. Discretisation allows us to take the overwhelming nature of some emotional communication and cut it up into chunks to be processed serially. Words then add to the precision in doing this.

We can cut off consciousness in that the grounding in mediation space means relational space and if we put the relational space areas of our brains (e.g. parietal cortex) to sleep so we lose consciousness.

At the same time, we can detect consciousness present in learning new skills due to the presence of delay in those skills (About 0.5 seconds in most, sometimes longer). Once the skill has been habituated the delay, and so consciousness, disappears and we fall back on stimulus/response. IOW the consciousness is present during mediation dynamics - when no longer needed we fall back in instincts and habits, rituals, routines etc


Traditional scholars today and sages in the past mastered a wide range of arts and sciences as a necessary part of their study. Confucius was a skilled musician, yet he taught calligraphy and other arts as well. ( I recall a legend he taught 1000 -or 3000? - pupils in his school the different required fields - including the I Ching- but only 77 were graduated and approved )
The IDM work covers ALL meaning and as such all languages - besides being trained in logic etc I also have a professional musician background ;-)

A Western historical study of any tradition - as its arts, literature, sacred texts and so on has its value. To be cognizant of the simultaneous, multiple meanings and associations for words and images requires a thorough familiarity with a culture.
No. ALL languages have a common ground and that is in our neurology. Local contexts have elicited specialist languages that appear to be 'unique' but the fact is behind all of the differences is the sameness we all share as species members and THAT is what the IDM work has focused upon and is driving the EIC work.

All cultures are specialist collectives of our species nature as neuron-dependent life forms. Local contexts can elicit brain development biases but the full range of POSSIBLE biases (or classes of) can be identified from the neurology - as has been done in the IDM work.

Thus to understand what is behind the traditional I Ching does NOT require any comprehension of the Chinese language or civilisation since the traditional material comes out of brains just like ours if but less developed in the context of precision etc and so levels of consciousness.

It is USEFUL to gain some understanding of yin/yang etc but it is not necessary - one can still get the SAME results using 'differentiating/integrating' and asking the EIC questions and having no Chinese content in interpretations etc of hexagrams - but it is easier, more attractive, to have that material as it elicits an 'organic' sensation and slight mystery that people find attractive and are more focused on learning together with the easy symbolisms etc - make it too mechanistic and people cannot 'feel' what is going on, it can be too quantitative when the EIC is all about being qualitative.

And the inner teachings and keys to texts like the I Ching were traditionally kept secret and reserved for the few. This secrecy is less the case now, although access to the keys is still accessible to the few who are prepared to learn it - a self-selective process. The Chinese have a saying that there are few who know and among those who know there are few who teach.
The EIC material comes out of a scientific perspective free of any association with 'secret handshake' organisations. The language element discovered allows us to get the IC to describe itself at the class level and as such is extremely useful in fleshing out details of hexagrams etc.

The plethora of traditional I Ching interpretation/translations, both in Chinese and English etc bring out 3000 years of NOT knowing about the language capabilities of the I Ching due to the bias to the traditional sequence. The reference to the binary sequence is rare and limited to showing the formats with no reference to use of logic operators nore understanding of brain dynamics and so the modes of anti-symmetry(XOR), symmetry(EQV), and asymmetry(IMP).

Thus the traditional material covers an almost religous focus on the text as if one is forbidden from any 'unorthodox' approaches!

The IDM/EIC methodology is described in the EIC website and book and as such there are no need for 'secrets' - secrets are usually for those who have no idea what they are dealing with and so mystify something for self-aggrandisement etc - play of social power games etc. From a science perspective there is no need for such. If one has the brains to deal with the material then that's fine, if they don't they will get board and move on. simple.

That said, could the EIC be 'dangerous'? There is a warning on the website that using it can reveal some aspect of one's nature that consciousness is trying to suppress so one should not be too 'unsettled' when this happens. See the example in the EIC faq page.

IS the EIC more consistent in predicting details of events such as outcomes, origins etc etc than the traditional material? sure is. Does it require a paradigm shift in understanding what is going on? yes. Some can deal with it, some cannot.
:cool:
 

bamboo

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So if i understand you right, if I'm standing at a vantage point where I can see two cars hurdling towards each other, but the drivers, because of a curve in the road don't see it, the crash is predestined but not predetermined. Right?

well, what if one of the drivers was praying at that moment , or throwing the YI coins, :mischief:, and at the last moment, veered off to the side, missing the crash by seconds...? you'd call it a miracle and perhaps it was...yet the indian priest wrote down on nadi bark 1000 yrs ago that this crash would not happen, and that the driver would live to the age of 105....:bows: what is predestined and what is predetermined? hmmm, i dont think i know the difference!
 

bamboo

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uh-oh, pantherpanther did not see this coming, these lengthy discussions!

for many of us it is a deja vu..;)
 

fkegan

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So much changes if one assumes to have a better vantage point than anyone else. However, that is rarely true, just different points of view like points upon a circle, each looking off on their own tangent and noting that from their perspective all others are under them.

Any view that claims its assumptions are unquestionable truth and all others false if they disagree quickly reduces everything to just a simple dichotomy of 'our view' and all others we reject. Whether that is logical positivism or Elvis' or poor Chris Lofting's--they all founder on the simple logical flaw involved. What proof have you that what you assume so important is of any value outside of your own clique of 'true' believers? Equality of personal perspectives is the most devastating retort to all those claims.

Or in the alternative, let me second Bostonian's conclusion. When a Crisis of Faith hits you, seek fellowship and very soon it will go away on its own. It is only those who get hung up into their insistence that their pet hobby horse is the only solution that never get anywhere at all.

Frank
 

elvis

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So much changes if one assumes to have a better vantage point than anyone else. However, that is rarely true, just different points of view like points upon a circle, each looking off on their own tangent and noting that from their perspective all others are under them.
LOL! love it Frank - you walked right into it! You analogy to a CIRCLE reflects a grounding in SYMMETRIC, mythic, thinking. Neurologically, psychologically, this is a realm of metaphors where all are interchangeable and this covers the realms of abstractions, of specialist languages that in fact all cover the ONE set of concrete meanings we all share as neuron-dependent life forms.

The realm of the symmetric is a realm of possibles/necessaries but not ACTUALS; it is realm of surrealism/romanticism NOT the REAL when compared to a well developed consciousness. Jung covered this well:

""We can say that individuals are equal only in so far as they are in a large measure unconscious - unconscious, that is, of their actual differences. The more unconscious a man is, the more he will conform to the general canon of psychic behaviour. But the more conscious he becomes of his individuality, the more pronounced will be his difference from other subjects and the less he will come up to common expectations. Further, his reactions are much less predictable. This is due to the fact that an individual consciousness is more highly differentiated and more extensive. But the more extensive it becomes the more differences it will perceive and the more it will emancipate itself from the collective rules, for the empirical freedom of the will grows in proportion to the extension of consciousness.
As the individual differentiation of consciousness proceeds, the objective validity of its views decreases and their subjectivity increases, at least in the eyes of the environment, if not in actual fact. For if a view is to be valid, it must have the acclaim of the greatest possible number, regardless of the arguments put forward in its favour. "True" and "valid" describe what the majority believe, for this confirms the equality of all. But differentiated consciousness no longer takes it for granted that one's own preconceptions are applicable to others, and vice versa
" p83 C. Jung, The Nature of the Psyche (RKP)

The more distinctions we make in dealing with reality the more we move from symmetry to anti-symmetry to asymmetry and in doing so the logic changes. The logic of symmetry is grounded in the BI-conditional (If and ONLY If) and as such, seen from the position of full blown, asymmetric, consciousness is 'irrational' in that formal logic leads us into asymmetry in the form of the conditional (IF...THEN..)

What this brings out is the LACK OF DIRECTION of symmetric perspectives, all is interchangeable, beginning with ending etc etc and so a state that can lead into depression for consciousness.

Direction comes through empirical studies and that includes the use of asymmetric logic to bring out the full spectrum of what is possible and actual rather that the limits of symmetric thinking. Symmetric thinking is 'primitive' when compared to what can come out of consciousness where we can 'raise the bar' in understanding.

With the development of the asymmetric comes the development of unique, and so original, insights that can change the world overnight, where such perspectives come out of ONE being, not from a committee meeting!

All of us have the capacity to do this but different local context dynamics will damp such behaviours (or make the differences local to one's immediate being).

SYMMETRIC thinking is the home of typologies etc and so such tools as the MBTI where attempts are made identify group level 'differences' that make predictions of behaviours possible - the issue here is that symmetric thinking, well known for stereotyping, is prone to confusing an instance with a class - we can see this in behaviours of individuals who consider themselves "ENFJs" (an MBTI class) when the fact is they are unique individuals operating within a genetic class of consciousness that can be changed if need be. (JUng's focus was on the changing of such, to get the unique being to experience all possibles rather than conform to some particular as a universal).

In the context of PRECISION, the movement from symmetric to anti-symmetric is a movement from equivalence to exclusive-or, from sameness to difference-within-sameness. Geometrically the shift is from a circle to a square where being on a point on the square all is definitely NOT the same.

If we push the envelope a bit we move into 'transcendence' space, the realm of complexity/chaos and so of emergence. See such material as that covering Autopoiesis.

Empirical studies allow us to move into these areas and as such the EIC demonstrates the insights possible in doing such where we can transcend 10th century BC thinking and so 'do better' in using the I Ching.

Any view that claims its assumptions are unquestionable truth and all others false if they disagree quickly reduces everything to just a simple dichotomy of 'our view' and all others we reject. Whether that is logical positivism or Elvis' or poor Chris Lofting's--they all founder on the simple logical flaw involved. What proof have you that what you assume so important is of any value outside of your own clique of 'true' believers? Equality of personal perspectives is the most devastating retort to all those claims.
Demonstration of the LACK of equality, the nature of uniqueness, is the best retort for the above, symmetry minded, rubbish. The 'logical flaw' is in your use of bi-conditional logic Frank - the equivalence focus reveals your symmetric perspective and it is that that is distorting your point of view.

The MAIN feature of the EIC work is that it is grounded in the mechanics of logic alone - no 'subjective' element other than the contributions of consciousness in adding local context details for some universal class of event that has been mapped to a hexagram or sequence of.

The ability to utilise logic operators alone to generate a 'language of the vague' as covered in the EIC sets the ground for recognition of the EIC as representing a universal 'truth' beyond question where such is derived from the IDM work on meaning generation. For the influence of logic operators in our brains to influence reasoning etc see such work as:

Parsons, L.M., & Osherton, D., (2001) “New Evidence for Distinct Right and Left Brain Systems for Deductive versus Probabilistic Reasoning” Cerebral Cortex, Vol. 11, No. 10, 954-965, October 2001

Oaksford, M., and Chater, N., (2001) "The probabilistic approach to human reasoning" IN Trends in Cognitive Sciences Vol 5. No8 August 2001: 349-357

The IDM work leading into the EIC show the HARD CODING of basic meanings and the presence of a phase transition in derivation of finer categories where such leads into language development as covered in the EIC through use of the XOR operator.

Thus the IDM/EIC work is a 'new direction' that has empirical support from neuroscience work and brings out the language nature of the I Ching, something NOT POSSIBLE TO DETECT from a symmetry-minded position - so Frank, all of those interpretations of yours are 'up for review' given the EIC work - as are all of the other traditional I Ching interpretations/translations and now we can get details from the horse's mouth, not the countless jockeys that have tried to ride the horse.

For issues of styles of thinking (symmetric/asymetric) consider:

"The Principle of Generalization.
The system unconscious treats an individual thing (person, object, concept) as if it were a member or element of a set or class which contains other members; it treats this class as a subclass of a mor egeneral class, and this more general class as a subclass of a still more general class and so on"
P 34 Matte-Blanco, I., (1975)"The Unconscious as Infinite Sets" Karnec

"...symmetrical relations do not seem at first sight to be as common as asymmetrical ones when perceiving the external world with its geometry and geography of things, which is replete with difference relations between places, points, lines surfaces, spaces and solid things. However, at the same time we must continuously use sameness relations when dealing with the world. Perhaps asymmetry comes to the fore because a prime use of consciousness is to *locate* the self within the world of objects. This is a central function of the focus of attention. Notice also that we are concerned with logically asymmetrical and symmetrical relations, which are defined by the identity or not of their converses; they apply to much more than spacial relations.
The word symmetry simply refers to *sameness* between at least two things and thus to matching and one-to-one correspondence." pp23-24 Rayner, E., (2003)"Unconscious Logic : an introduction to Matte Blanco's bi-logic and its uses" Brunner-Routledge

We see here the focus on location " ..which needs difference discrimination, and recognition which needs sensitivity to samenesses." pp 25 Rayner, E., (2003)"Unconscious Logic : an introduction to Matte Blanco's bi-logic and its uses" Brunner-Routledge

The IDM focus covers the development of consciousness as running in tandem with the development of precision in expression through the making of distinctions and the emergence of language once enough distinctions have been made - in other words the richer the distinctions the richer the level of developed consciousness.

Matte-Blanco's work is independent of mine but ties in with my 'dimension of precision' focus in meaning derivation.
 
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elvis

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uh-oh, pantherpanther did not see this coming, these lengthy discussions!

for many of us it is a deja vu..;)
too much reading gives you a headache? - lengthy discussions can be of value if you can deal with it - otherwise comments like the above just present you as if unable to use directed thinking (thinking in words) over mythic thinking (thinking in images) and that can be an issue in that you can miss out on the 'difference that [can make] a difference' (Bateson).
 

elvis

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To emphasise a point for Bostonian, Frank, etc the IDM/EIC focus on not adaptive, it is not 'just another interpretation/translation' of the I Ching and so interchangeable with all others - it is innovative and introduces a whole new perspective of understanding the I Ching from a hard-coded perspective. This is not about me and some subjective perspective, this has developed from the dynamics of our neurology and as such covers a 'law' if you like. There is no 'alternative' of the EIC perspective due to the hard-coding element that has been identified. There can be alternative interpretations of the results where local context can introduce instance differences to class expressions but the language dynamics are hard-coded into the use of recursion to derive classes of meanings.

What IDM covers, and the EIC demonstrates, is a phase transition present in the recursion where the mechanistic nature of recursion, heading for an infinite regression, suddenly changes to an organic format that serves as a brake to the regression in the form of language creation.

From the IDM focus on symmetry and the creation of classes of meanings we see emerge anti-symmetry (parts focus, the trigrams, hexagrams etc and their apparent uniqueness covered in the Fu Hsi focus on A/NOT-A structure (and so negation of equivalence where NOT EQV = XOR)). From anti-symmetry emerges asymmetry in the form of unique expressions etc (creation of specialist languages for mediation etc)

As such there is no 'standing on a point on a circle' where there are alternatives to the EIC findings since we are dealing with what seeds all of those metaphors, not the metaphors themselves. The uniqueness of the perspective covers the DIRECTIONAL focus, the SEQUENCING, we find in our brain that works to give symmetry a sense of direction and so development. Thus with the EIC we head off into a new direction that gives us finer details, finer understanding of what is behind the traditional IC approaches - what all of the traditional metaphors are trying to communicate.

As the 'dimension of precision' focus shows as, as we get more precise in our distinctions so we reveal the exclusive-or nature of the REAL as compared to the more equivalences biases of the surreal/romantic; the nature of the ACTUAL as compared to the realm of necessities and possibilities (the symmetric).

The symmetric is ALWAYS a SUPPORT position and is also a position of safety, of protection. But we live in a dynamic, still evolving, universe such that after a time the symmetric starts to decay, it cannot keep up with change as it naturally has no sense of direction. This is where anti-symmetry and asymmetry come to the rescue where symmetry can be re-configured to adjust to change through RE-directions and that includes interpretations of such as the meaning behind the I Ching. Empirical studies bring out this meaning in identifying the dynamics of our brains that have been hidden to us for millions of years; we now have fine details as to what is going on 'in here' and with that knowledge are in a position to re-assess our maps of reality - and the IDM/EIC work does exactly that. It is unique work. It is innovative work. There is 'nothing like it' nore can there be since it is grounded in hard-coding of neural dynamics and as such is universally true for all recursion-derived perspectives and that includes us in the form of our brains (the XOR operator that allows for difference management etc DEMANDS recursion to allow for the processing of data - to implement it neurologically requires TWO neurons, one feeding back onto the other to then allow for simple forms of memory systems and as such a recursive act. Furthermore, the development of associative memories from our dichotomy-driven sensory systems covers the slow emergence from such activity where the patterns from the recursion get stored to slowly bring out association skills (pattern matching))

So - this is NOT one of Frank's 'just another perspective that are all basically the same' - this is a DIFFERENCE THAT MAKES A DIFFERENCE and in doing so introduces a paradigm shift in understanding reality (and the imagination) in general.
 

bamboo

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too much reading gives you a headache? - lengthy discussions can be of value if you can deal with it - otherwise comments like the above just present you as if unable to use directed thinking (thinking in words) over mythic thinking (thinking in images) and that can be an issue in that you can miss out on the 'difference that [can make] a difference' (Bateson).

no, it's just that Elvis has been around before. the headaches will come. but he's lovable:hug:
 

my_key

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no, it's just that Elvis has been around before. the headaches will come. but he's lovable:hug:
I've still got the migranes from the last time:D
Apparently the human mind can only take in up to 7 points of information at any one time, so when the intellectuals start to joust it's no wonder us mere mortals go into information overload. Although there is a part of me that does enjoy the struggle of taking in the new.;)

My vote is for a 6" limit to all threads.Because half a foot still gives room to chew it all over.:footinmouth::D

BTW ...... Just to add some fuel to the fire :mischief:.......The meaning of the name Elvis is Elf-wise friend or All Wise

Happy New Year
Mike
 
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rosada

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Interesting this discussion about Faith has come up as we were building up to a full moon in Cancer/Capricorn. The moon in Cancer would bring up all sorts of emotions and the Sun in Capricorn would demand that they all be allowed and none given greater significance than any other. I think that could have triggered this sense of disorientation.
-Rosada
 

oponopono

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Hello everyone - and Happy New Year!

Funny :) …. I was just about to approach the forum with a call for support that in many ways touches Bostonian's first post, but seeing that there is already here for me such a extensive and deep and multi-voiced contribution of knowledge, there is no point on repeating the whole thing through. However…

I read all contributions, and I'm thankful for your insights. Nevertheless concerning my original call for support this thread headed into issues of Faith, determinism and consciousness - which is fine, but I was actually approaching you who use the Y for long periods of time to ask about issues of Trust (ok, Faith, Trust…) and down-right empirical confirmation. So, it's all about what Bostonian first presented, but I have one or two more side questions for you all…
If I may:

I am "chatting" with the I ching for a bit more than a year now, precisely because I recognized I had reached a dead-end in believing reason and the scientific method would give me all the answers. I started realizing how useful it can be at some levels of knowledge seeking, but inherently limited in others. So I went on my own personal quest for these "others" and that translated in my life by taking on meditative practices, funny things like keeping an "intuition journal" (god, this would have been unthinkable for me 2 years ago!!) and yes, using the Y to somehow relate to larger patterns in my life, or something that I like to think of as "my higher self".

It's been a beautiful and enriching ride, for sure. I learned a lot, for sure. I had immense fun, for sure. Even in those situations (we all must know) of being attached to an outcome and then getting an hexagram that really challenges your ability to let go and surrender to whatever comes, or the way the Y has sometimes of being witty and funny … (like the time I asked "how should I go about my daily meditation practices to make the possible best of it?" and got 52 unchanging… I had to laugh; I mean "How should I meditate? Just meditate!")
Oh, I loved those moments…

But for 3 or 4 months now I embarked on a different experience all together in this trusting-the-Y process of mine - and yesterday night as the year changed and December came to an end I really felt a very deep and awkward sense of abandonment. It was the Shadow side of Faith, or Trust, that is this panic feeling of having giving something your complete vow of trust, followed it, to come to a point where you realize "you were fooled"…
:duh:

Ok, obviously there is some important work here for me to do on my own self-awareness and my own-shadow issues if I start feeling that a book, some entity outside of myself, manipulated me into a loosing situation where I would have never gotten on my own…
This is obviously some projected-something of mine that am perhaps refusing myself to take responsibility for some deep desires… but let's not get into therapy here…! :blush:

My objective question is, in your own personal experience with this dialogue, in situations that were on-going processes (mostly relationships - or work) and that you chose to follow the Y's advise and see what came, have you experienced that the outcome was completely another than what the book suggested, the situation had nothing to do with the Y's predictions, you led yourself into stormy waters for no apparent reason? …
As it ever bluntly failed for any of you?…

It's good that in "Shared Readings" we can share the many ways the Y gets it, and how it uses its language to convey purposeful meaning. But what about events where the Y didn't get it? What if it was wrong? How do you go about it? And if it's something important for you, how do you regain trust?

I mean, how am I tomorrow going to ask insight about a new situation completely, if I now have the feeling that 4 months now it was leading me along for nothing? :confused:

It's also curious to observe how, despite the obvious fact that I have made a complete fool of myself in this relationship situation I asked the Y's support with, I seem to be struggling more about the idea of loosing the Y as a counsellor than the guy as a lover… Aint that weird?…

So, in short, how do you manage the non-answers and the wrong-answers? How do you regain trust?

Thank you!


ps. Dear Bostonian, I'm glad to read that you feel reassured again and I hope it's no problem that I use your thread for my own questioning...
 
M

meng

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My objective question is, in your own personal experience with this dialogue, in situations that were on-going processes (mostly relationships - or work) and that you chose to follow the Y's advise and see what came, have you experienced that the outcome was completely another than what the book suggested, the situation had nothing to do with the Y's predictions, you led yourself into stormy waters for no apparent reason? …
As it ever bluntly failed for any of you?…
My understanding of it has failed me miserably at some crucial times. If I had understood better the more complete meanings of the readings, I could and would have made better choices.
 

pantherpanther

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elvis,
In reference to your extensive comments (#32) on a few of mine (# 30). I will look into your Emotional I Ching.

I think what lacks in your approach to the I Ching is the principle of scale. While everything in creation is "material," there are graded levels of energy and these levels interact. The I Ching was based on a knowledge of these many levels. You have developed a partial model based on a selected number of observations. You say words and numbers have certain meanings. This is analogous to theorizing how the universe works from the 4% that is observable. Scientific research as neurological research, genetic research - that is, astronomy, biology, physics and so on - is based on "observable" phenomena .

When I noted science has not developed a science of consciousness, I was aware of several hundred published studies that conform to the standard scientific method . I am familar with the Journal of Consciousness Research you mention. This work points toward what may become a science of consciousness. There is still little funding in this area of research.

Mircea Eliade writes that it is only “with the appropriate psycho-somatic and spiritual training that (modern) man can have the (ancient) revelation of the primordial mode of nature”. (Eliade,Sacred and Profane, 1978). He calls it an oddity that alchemy is mankind’s first science, but is widely regarded as a form of mysticism. Modern man has an aesthetic appreciation of nature, but his awareness is so greatly narrowed by materialist views that he is today incapable of understanding the science of ancient alchemists.

To study consciousness, one doesn't have to have heard of "alchemy"
or traditional teachings, such as the I Ching. They do contain "keys," as
I suggested. All knowledge is knowledge. How one uses it takes knowledge.
"It takes gold to make gold."

The human being continually receives various energies from the whole universe. They pass through him all the time. His anatomy is structured so that he may relate to them actively or passively according his awareness, that is he may incorporate some part of them in his being for his conscious evolution or allow them to process through into the broad stream of evolution mechanically. We all eat, breath, have experience and die.


The Commentary on Shi Qing Lu says: ‘Every change of heaven and earth exists in numbers, which have a forward and backward progression. Heaven, earth and man have this progression.’


Dao births One,
One births Two,
Two births Three,
Three births the ten thousand things.
The ten thousand beings carry yin on their backs,
Embrace yang to their chest,
And by mixing the two qi achieve harmony.
Daodejing, v. 42


For the Taoists, the development of consciousness is described as the making an energy body . In the early stages , an energy body is cultivated in the belly. The mind and attention is placed there. Sound is often an essential tool in this early process, beginning with the six healing sounds which are gradually interiorized in Fusion of the Five Elements, the planetary energies. The different cosmological levels of energy correspond to different energy centers in the human being that that they can learn to work with consciously . The mind works with the body, a part of which is the brain.

The brain is a complex organ, which can record the effects of what the mind experiences. It may be possible from brain and other research to create an artificial intelligence or even a physical being that works in a way that replicates many functions that humans perform in life, including learning to perform them more efficiently (as some computer programs can do.)

Returning to your model of interpreting the I Ching, consider that the majority of humans' thoughts , feelings and sensations are acquired,unconscious reactions to present stimuli. There is essentially no difference in quality for they are on the same scale in our state of waking sleep. Rarely are there real impressions, and usually, after childhood, they are quickly forgot and denied. The Buddha and Christ stressed this point again and again. In the traditions and religions is the same message. But we can't bear much reality, as T S Eliot noted.The I Ching is to help humans be more human. It also contains the same truth as do others. "Making the best of the job," is the demand that life makes of us ignorant and frightened creatures. That is not all there is, we have potential to evolve. Few have so far. History may be mostly lies, but it can't hide the lessons. Yet there is extraordinary art and science in all great cultures.

I won't attempt to comment on the details of your work because I haven't studied it. I know a number of languages, and I have studied quite a few ancient ones, reading the original texts and inscriptions (and taught them.) I expect you know that spoken and written languages are still very different in some cultures - no wonder the Iranians and Arabs think most of our "trained linguists" are offensive and stupid, for words that are written are not spoken and vice versa. When it comes to interpreting the I Ching on a common basis with "all languages," the complexity can neither be reduced to patterns in the brain nor placed in historical time (for older forms of languages exist in some communities.) And there are specific languages used by communities working within traditional teachings that give keys to ideas that are not written, although they may be made public after centuries. Perhaps the Buddha taught Tantra to his pupils? As for the Vatican, " What the Vatican knows stays in the Vatican" ? There is "a common language," but not on the limited, reductionist scale you imagine. Confucious taught some by metaphor, I expect, but we don't know what or how he may have
taught a few and the practices he used. There are many translations of the I Ching. We have the scholars' work with the Dead Sea Scrolls, Qumran, various Gospels etc. producing various interpretations that contradict.
 
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oponopono

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Dear Meng, I get your point -

My understanding of it has failed me miserably at some crucial times. If I had understood better the more complete meanings of the readings, I could and would have made better choices.
Please don't get me wrong. I'm not marching in here with my ridiculously short one-year experience announcing how I am so definitely right and the book so obviously mistaken. I didn't even share my readings nor made it that specific because of course I contemplate the likelihood of my clinging to the outcome having completely distorted whatever reading I could have gotten. This is why my question really concerns you, the experienced ones, and how you deal with interpretations that seemed so poignant and turned out completely contradictory. I don't feel it would be a very healthy attitude to just ignore those and focus on all those times we know the Y works... that would be acritical and somewhat dangerous, imo...

It also disturbs me a bit to think only the erudite can have access to it. At some level, it should know it's readers capabilities, I believe, and convey meaning in a way accessible to you. Me, in the case... am I being naive?

It's true that i got 17 and 5 and 32 over and over and I gathered that meant not giving up. And then I got 31 and 19 and that meant a bit of hope in coming together as a couple. Therefore I have to accept I just don't have enough knowledge on those hexagrams. But that's puzzling. I imagine that if the Y wanted to tell me go away or give up it could have gave me a 33, 23, something a bit more obviously hopeless...?
My question still stands then, if I know I keep getting answers I have little likelihood to interpret right, how do I go on chatting?...

Thanks for your view on it, it's an important point to be made, of course, my ignorance :)

Yo*
 

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Hi Yoana

I'm certainly not one of the experienced ones you're calling upon to answer your question, and I'm also waiting to hear what they have to say.

But if at some point I believe using my interpretation of an I Ching led me astray in a major way or in minor ways many times, I'd have to make a decision on whether to continue using it and, if i decided to continue using it, how much to rely on its answers.

I think what you might be asking is how does one overcome the feeling or thought that the i Ching is just phony baloney after you experience a major malfunction with it. Personally, I'd ask: what does your heart tell you? If you feel that despite your disappointing results, you still resonate with the I Ching, keep working with it, but perhaps read its answers with some skepticism. But if you feel the i Ching may be just a lot of hot air, you might decide that it is not the best spiritual discipline for you at this point at least.

Sorry about the disappointment in your relationship, by the way.
 
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Trojina

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It also disturbs me a bit to think only the erudite can have access to it. At some level, it should know it's readers capabilities, I believe, and convey meaning in a way accessible to you. Me, in the case... am I being naive?

It's true that i got 17 and 5 and 32 over and over and I gathered that meant not giving up. And then I got 31 and 19 and that meant a bit of hope in coming together as a couple. Therefore I have to accept I just don't have enough knowledge on those hexagrams. But that's puzzling. I imagine that if the Y wanted to tell me go away or give up it could have gave me a 33, 23, something a bit more obviously hopeless...?
My question still stands then, if I know I keep getting answers I have little likelihood to interpret right, how do I go on chatting?...

Thanks for your view on it, it's an important point to be made, of course, my ignorance :)

Yo*
Are you talking about relationship questions...romantic ones, the ones where you think you were 'led astray' ? Cos well IMO thats a category on its own. We form romantic relations by and large with a heavy dose of projection...we can only sustain this projection when the person isn't fully available to us, where they can't for some reason fully communicate with us. If they could fully communicate their actual thoughts and feelings about us to us we'd know them and the romantic projection may well totally shatter so...enter 10000 questions to the Yi on "how does he feel about me" and "will we be together". By question 45 'he' has probably gone from complete indifference to the utmost devotion in our minds.

So I think what can often happen is in the 'how does he feel' 'will we be together 'question frenzy one is just looking into a hall of mirrors of ones own projections which is why its quite frustrating so many people give themselves pain and feel 'misled' by doing this over in shared readings...but then again its something everyone has probably done, I know I have but i think its well to be aware its an area because of projection of our wishes we really are quite blind...so IMO readings re 'romantic ' questions are probably best kept to a minimum and even then taken with a pinch of salt...

I think its a bit different with relationship questions where one has an actual ongoing relationship...but very often romance questions concern someone, as I said, who really is not that close to the querant, who the querant doesn't really know...they ask 40 questions, think they know and then wham when the reality of that persons real thoughts and feeling becomes apparent...and it turns out it really would have been better to try to get to know their feelings by by talking to them..its the only reliable way IMO.

So in short i think its possible not just that you didn't know enough about the hexagrams but that you substituted communication with him/her with communication with the Yi., which doesn't work at all well IMO. Wouldn't your cues on whether to give up or continue be better, more reliable coming from him/her. Often people say they can't ask or talk to the loved one..and that in itself is probably a pretty good sign that its just not working

Of course all this assumes it was a romantic question that you feel the Yi misled you on...but even in any relationship question something to bear in mind is the more you have to ask the Yi about them the less they must be actually communicating/ sharing with you.

I don't think only scholars have access to getting wisdom and guidance from the Yi but I don't think i agree the Yi, can always fit itself according to the level of our knowlege of it. I say this because i can see many many times where i totally misunderstood an answer.., where the answer was quite apt but i just did not understand it and I would have been better off not following what I mistakenly thought was Yis advice but my own judgement. If i am unsure about an answer I still do that.

I can't see any need for 'faith', its not a religion but an oracle, and when there are times we don't have a clue about our answer i think we'd better put the faith in ourselves
 
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M

meng

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Yo, I didn't intend to refer to your inexperience. I was answering the question simply based on my experience. To a large degree I still feel inexperienced, and approach it more that way now than when I was so sure of myself. I think that's part of a pretty typical learning curve.

If you're asking if we've ever had periods of disconnects, that's something else.
 

my_key

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Yoana
There isn't a person on this forum who at some time or other has not had similar experiences of "failure" with the IC.
how do you manage the non-answers and the wrong-answers? How do you regain trust?
Having been through similar situations I look back and find that the lack of trust was not with the IC but with myself. Starting to trust myself again was a times really hard, however a good maxim to follow is "Take one day at a time". The Yi is Mr Dependable, so you know he's on your side and is rooting for you to get 'it'. If I allow myself to get bogged down by self- doubt and mistrust then I'm never going to get it. Taking one question at a time - forgetting all the ones before and all the ones still to be asked. Approaching each question with the same innocence, wonder and expectations of success as the first one you asked...... that may be one way to manage the self doubt. Let go of the wrong and non-answers, treat yourself with compassion, forgive yourself and have faith.

Be Well
Mike
 
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meng

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But if at some point I believe using my interpretation of an I Ching led me astray in a major way or in minor ways many times, I'd have to make a decision on whether to continue using it and, if i decided to continue using it, how much to rely on its answers.
For me, it changes not how much I rely on its answers but in what way I rely on its answers. There's a great deal less credit and judgment involved in my interpretations these days than in times past.

I think what you might be asking is how does one overcome the feeling or thought that the i Ching is just phony baloney after you experience a major malfunction with it.
I think it's very good to question and scrutinize our beliefs from time to time. I still ask if the whole synchronicity thing is just a self-perpetuated hoax, if there's a way I am tricking myself into seeing what I want or need to see? I don't view that as unhealthy. I view it as part of vitality.
 

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Hi All,

The question of dealing with Faith in one's I Ching readings is answered by those that DO work out well, they are personal miracles and keep divining folks divining.

The question of personal crises, whether caused by not being able to appreciate or understand your divination or anything else are best resolved as personal issues having to do with your own inner state; rather than projecting them out to blame anyone or anything else. The Yi Oracle didn't lead you astray ever. You may have gone off on your own and found the results difficult.

As for those lost in their own fixed ideas that whatever they just learned about as the sole solution to everything, one generally must wait for them to outgrow their delusion or at least grow up enough to learn better than to to presume their ideas are all anyone else needs to know about.

Neuroscience is a strange field subject to many changing claims over the years. At one time the brain was described as a form of storage battery and telephone exchange. Then it was a relay system or binary computer or complex system of cell wall constructions with varying abilities to change K+ ion permeability. Personally, I prefer the notion that humans are still many centuries away from being able to claim any understanding of neuroscience as it is based upon dynamics ranging from beyond Heisenberg limitations in the molecular to beyond physics limitations in patterns of signals and the limitations in imagination imposed by probability excuses.

However, the patterns of the King Wen Sequence of the I Ching hexagrams offer a fascinating alternative to show how a system of brain cell synapses could create meaning without language or any other extraneous notions directly by very simple concepts and principles.

Or for Elvis who seems more acolyte to Lofting than anything else, the geometry of the circle is easy to dismiss in all sorts of linear nonsense, but ultimately the circle is an eternal symbolism that keeps coming winning over the many linear ideas and half-understood science jargon that isn't boiled down to clear, concise and interesting comments just gets ignored.

Faith is faith whether it calls itself such or masquerades as Truth or Science.

Frank
 

Trojina

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Hi All,



Or for Elvis who seems more acolyte to Lofting than anything else,

Frank
Frank, Elvis is Chris Lofting...its not his 'acolyte' its the same person new name..
 
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elvis

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Hello everyone -
....So, in short, how do you manage the non-answers and the wrong-answers? How do you regain trust?
Change your approach.

The LANGUAGE of the I Ching allows for analysis of ANYTHING in a structured way (focusing on classes) so one can then introduce variations at the level of instances of classes.

For TRUST issues we have 32 hexagrams that cover the dimension of absolute trust in yourself, and so covers hubris to total self-betrayal.

The other 32 hexagrams cover the dimension of absolute distrust in another/others to absolute trust in another/others to (and so cover the dynamics of betrayal by others):

01 43 14 34 09 05 26 11 Heaven
10 58 38 54 61 60 41 19 Lake
13 49 30 55 37 63 22 36 Fire
25 17 21 51 42 03 27 24 Thunder
44 28 50 32 57 48 18 46 Wind
06 47 64 40 59 29 04 07 Water
33 31 56 62 53 39 52 15 Mountain
12 45 35 16 20 08 23 02 Earth

This is of course the binary sequence and covers GENERIC, universal classes of meanings then open to customisation to fit some particular perspective (e.g. classes of trust to classes of consciousness).

A hierarchy perspective, covering temporal dynamics and the play of WHY/HOW comes from rotating the above to give the binary NUMBER sequence:

01 44 13 33 10 06 25 12
09 57 37 53 61 59 42 20
14 50 30 56 38 64 21 35
26 18 22 52 41 04 27 23
43 28 49 31 58 47 17 45
05 48 63 39 60 29 03 08
34 32 55 62 54 40 51 16
11 46 36 15 19 07 24 02

See the summary of these in the EIC sample pdf document (first 50 pages of the book)

By using the language approach one can start to regain trust in the IC and in oneself.
 

elvis

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elvis,
In reference to your extensive comments (#32) on a few of mine (# 30). I will look into your Emotional I Ching.

I think what lacks in your approach to the I Ching is the principle of scale. While everything in creation is "material," there are graded levels of energy and these levels interact.
The EIC comes out of IDM and the focus on meaning derivation REGARDLESS OF SCALE. In other words we use the SAME methodology in interpreting reality at all scales. Issues then emerge re the DEPTH of analysis and the EIC demonstrates in its XOR work the phase transition present in meaning generations and so what you consider 'graded levels of energy'. The gradings are at 2^1, 2^3, 2^6, and 2^12 in the I Ching. The 2^6 level is the MINIMUM level for getting the I Ching to work as a language - lesser levels show emergences of categories etc (yin/yang, trigrams) but not the emergence of language usage.

The I Ching was based on a knowledge of these many levels. You have developed a partial model based on a selected number of observations. You say words and numbers have certain meanings. This is analogous to theorizing how the universe works from the 4% that is observable. Scientific research as neurological research, genetic research - that is, astronomy, biology, physics and so on - is based on "observable" phenomena .
The IDM template covers all POSSIBLE classes of meaning GIVEN our neurology and our senses. Our species nature development has been grounded in SYMMETRY and our sensory systems reflect that adaptation. It is the emergence of the ASYMMETRY of our consciousness that allows us to 'see' the fact of only coming up with the 6% you mention.
IOW our consciousness covers a phase transition allowing for transcendence over transformations.

When I noted science has not developed a science of consciousness, I was aware of several hundred published studies that conform to the standard scientific method . I am familar with the Journal of Consciousness Research you mention. This work points toward what may become a science of consciousness. There is still little funding in this area of research.
Mircea Eliade writes that it is only “with the appropriate psycho-somatic and spiritual training that (modern) man can have the (ancient) revelation of the primordial mode of nature”. (Eliade,Sacred and Profane, 1978). He calls it an oddity that alchemy is mankind’s first science, but is widely regarded as a form of mysticism. Modern man has an aesthetic appreciation of nature, but his awareness is so greatly narrowed by materialist views that he is today incapable of understanding the science of ancient alchemists.
Since the IDM material covers what is 'in' our heads, so the alchemical elements of the I Ching are 'in our heads' - e.g. hexagram 41 where the 'decrease' covers distillation processes and the consequences of failed distillations. The Taoist focus on alchemy and the western focus both cover hierarchic activities of abstractions(metaphysical) from the concrete(physical) (moving UP the hierarchy) and concrete from abstract (moving down the hierarchy). see my comments on the binary NUMBER sequence of the I Ching in my previous post to this thread. Note this particular sequence is one of MANY covering this dynamic but is the best to bring out the extremes of yang/yin distinctions.

The focus of IDM is on origin of MEANING - in all of its forms, real or imagined - so it covers all perspectives, all instances of communicatable meaning where these all reflect classes of meanings present in our neurology.
 

oponopono

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Very useful insights everyone, I feel I am finding some way through my dilemma at least...


You say it Trojan, about asking relationship questions. Often I just decided not to, but then on the other hand I seem to be a pretty clear and intuitive person in most aspects of my life, i.e., I don't really feel the need to ask a question, and precisely because everything feels so foggy in relationships and there is so much shadow and projection, it's a great area to spot your clingings...! I had very very enriching moments just observing my inner reaction to some "apparently negative" answers - let's say for example 41 or 12 - I could really observe the process of clinging and contraction in my body while it happened. That's something, don't you think?

I avoided 'how does he feel' and 'will we be together 'question (not totally) and tended for "How should I behave" or "What is there for me to learn" and these I find can be really useful - but often hard to get.


Bostonian, you manage to put it to words as I wouldn't have been able to

I think what you might be asking is how does one overcome the feeling or thought that the i Ching is just phony baloney after you experience a major malfunction with it. Personally, I'd ask: what does your heart tell you? If you feel that despite your disappointing results, you still resonate with the I Ching, keep working with it, but perhaps read its answers with some skepticism. But if you feel the i Ching may be just a lot of hot air, you might decide that it is not the best spiritual discipline for you at this point at least.
The thing is I don't really imagine myself right now without this dialogue in my daily life. I think I will completely refrain from relationship questions for a good while, and just study through other people+s experiences (Shared Readings forum) but it just doesn't feel like giving it up...
:eek:



And Thanks Elvis, I will surely take a look:

See the summary of these in the EIC sample pdf document (first 50 pages of the book)

By using the language approach one can start to regain trust in the IC and in oneself
Thank you all,
Yoana
 

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elvis,
From your #54:
Since the IDM material covers what is 'in' our heads, so the alchemical elements of the I Ching are 'in our heads' ...The focus of IDM is on origin of MEANING - in all of its forms, real or imagined - so it covers all perspectives, all instances of communicatable meaning where these all reflect classes of meanings present in our neurology.

The natives on this thread on "Faith" have indicated they have heard this before, so I will respond on Open Space, having had a chance to look into your IDM material and had a few thoughts.
 

fkegan

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Frank, Elvis is Chris Lofting...its not his 'acolyte' its the same person new name..
Hi Trojan,
How very sad to hear it is all just a masquerade by Chris. I had hoped he had finally found the true believer he had so desperately desired. Here in Vegas we are used to all sorts of Elvis impersonators. Pity Chris hasn't grown any yet. Perhaps this new year will bring new things for us all.

Frank
 

Trojina

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Hi Trojan,
How very sad to hear it is all just a masquerade by Chris. I had hoped he had finally found the true believer he had so desperately desired. Here in Vegas we are used to all sorts of Elvis impersonators. Pity Chris hasn't grown any yet. Perhaps this new year will bring new things for us all.

Frank
No, no I didn't mean it was a masquerade ! Chris simply left the forum and has now returned and used another name. When people rejoin they often use another name but I don't think its due here to any attempt to masquerade. I was just telling you it was him..hes not pretending anything, just being himself...who else writes like that !? He isn't attempting to be anyone other than himself
 

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Are you talking about relationship questions...romantic ones, the ones where you think you were 'led astray' ? Cos well IMO thats a category on its own. We form romantic relations by and large with a heavy dose of projection...we can only sustain this projection when the person isn't fully available to us, where they can't for some reason fully communicate with us. If they could fully communicate their actual thoughts and feelings about us to us we'd know them and the romantic projection may well totally shatter so...enter 10000 questions to the Yi on "how does he feel about me" and "will we be together". By question 45 'he' has probably gone from complete indifference to the utmost devotion in our minds.

So I think what can often happen is in the 'how does he feel' 'will we be together 'question frenzy one is just looking into a hall of mirrors of ones own projections which is why its quite frustrating so many people give themselves pain and feel 'misled' by doing this over in shared readings...but then again its something everyone has probably done, I know I have but i think its well to be aware its an area because of projection of our wishes we really are quite blind...so IMO readings re 'romantic ' questions are probably best kept to a minimum and even then taken with a pinch of salt...

I think its a bit different with relationship questions where one has an actual ongoing relationship...but very often romance questions concern someone, as I said, who really is not that close to the querant, who the querant doesn't really know...they ask 40 questions, think they know and then wham when the reality of that persons real thoughts and feeling becomes apparent...and it turns out it really would have been better to try to get to know their feelings by by talking to them..its the only reliable way IMO.

So in short i think its possible not just that you didn't know enough about the hexagrams but that you substituted communication with him/her with communication with the Yi., which doesn't work at all well IMO. Wouldn't your cues on whether to give up or continue be better, more reliable coming from him/her. Often people say they can't ask or talk to the loved one..and that in itself is probably a pretty good sign that its just not working

Of course all this assumes it was a romantic question that you feel the Yi misled you on...but even in any relationship question something to bear in mind is the more you have to ask the Yi about them the less they must be actually communicating/ sharing with you.

I don't think only scholars have access to getting wisdom and guidance from the Yi but I don't think i agree the Yi, can always fit itself according to the level of our knowlege of it. I say this because i can see many many times where i totally misunderstood an answer.., where the answer was quite apt but i just did not understand it and I would have been better off not following what I mistakenly thought was Yis advice but my own judgement. If i am unsure about an answer I still do that.

I can't see any need for 'faith', its not a religion but an oracle, and when there are times we don't have a clue about our answer i think we'd better put the faith in ourselves
Really interesting thread though of course some went over my head :)
But Trojan, this is the conclusion I too have finally come to re. relationship Q's :rolleyes: Well put!

I have finally had a breakthrough - symbolically on the 31st Dec - re a guy I have been in love with, or at least thickly projecting - for quite a while. Suddenly the feelings are off.. I'm not so naive to think something may change... that I'm not completely immune to being effected again. But I've finally had a revolution (and yes those two hexes were my last readings about the whole cycle :D)

At times the Yi did seem to encourage my feelings for him, and indeed may have fuelled them to a degree. But I think that we go through this process for a higher reason (after all we don't often get what we really really want!). So I think it appeases you as you go through a painful process, and then pats you on the back when you're finally back in balance (in my case, my heart is no longer longing). Also these experiences make you far more empathic and dicerning.
Also, if anything, going through intense feelings where you consult the Yi more often than usual, definitely teaches you more about the hex's - as you see them played out and comprehend them more deeply and from different angles and contexts. Maybe it's all about our Yi education! So that we need to physically consult less often..

Bostonian - I have also probed this issue, sometimes feeling that if it is just randomness then I am all alone in the Universe! In the sense that life is as it appears to be... which does reveal perhaps an unhealthy dependence on its guidance, and that I am choosing to believe.. but I've been using it for a long time, and I'm sure I'm not in denial. Answers are always relevant and sometimes specifically so. And because I've used it for a while, I am well acquainted with all the 64 Hexagrams and 384 lines, and so able to imagine getting a far less relevant or helpful question - but it hasn't happened yet! This is tricky territory though so I will bow out. All I can say is I don't know how it works, but it does.

:bows::bows:
 
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