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Dealing with someone with BPD

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Newbie21

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I'm in an on again/off again relationship with a guy with Borderline Personality Disorder for the past 7yrs.
It's long distance at the moment & he is not or has not ever been in treatment to make matters even more difficult.
I want to help him but I realise you can't help someone that won't help themselves.

We had made huge progress in our relationship over the past few months & finally I felt we were on the same page. We were planning on moving in together in another country (we both live in separate countries right now) he even mentioned marriage on a number of occasions.
Then about 7 weeks ago he had a mental breakdown, this time a pretty big one. It resulting in me having to leave him to it after days of trying to calm & reassure him, he was just lashing out at me so I had to just step back.
So a little under 2 weeks ago I emailed him just simply hoping he was doing ok. He broke down saying that he was really struggling day to day, his mother had come to visit him & that he couldn't even hide it from her (she knows something is up but not exactly what) she was disappointed in him (he has difficulty controlling his emotions, particularly negative emotions so lashes out)
I sent back a very loving & supportive email basically saying I am there for him but that he needed to get professional help & start treatment, I would have his back with this. He agreed & thanked me.
A week goes by & we have lots of friendly & nice exchanges via email. I am careful about phone conversations as that's usually how he starts to spiral out of control with his emotions or his reactions to anything I might say real or imagined.

So he calls me, I'm hesitant about answering but do so reluctantly, I had been sick for over a week, so tired & not mentally prepared for how it might go. The first few words into the conversation I knew he was in an arrogant mood so I stayed pretty quiet , barely said a few sentences really which somehow he mistook as me being negative & then started his spiralling on how I'm not doing enough to see him, to move to him, that it's never going to happen, that we shouldn't be together etc. So I ended the call. I had told him a few days previous that I was at an enrolment evening for my daughters high school & that is what made him so insecure this time around, he is assuming I not committed to moving even though I assured him I needed backup as my daughters education is vitally important to me.

Of course I was painted all bad after that, that I don't do enough, I don't care about him etc.
I emailed him back basically telling him everything I want & expect in a partner. How much I loved him & wanted him to be happy & healthy. And asked him a few questions on what he really wants from me & for our future.
I felt it was a really important & honest email.
He completely ignored my questions, belittled me & honed in on the few times I mentioned I wanted him to be ok or happy (referring to his mental health) stating matter of factly that he had no issues at all, that he's just "grumpy" some days & that his life was great!
This made me furious! And frankly the only thing that stopped me from going off on him was the fact he has BDP & I know his mind does not work & think the same, & it would only add fuel to the fire.

This is the pattern with him; he screams out for help, accepts my love & support, admits he has a problem & agrees he needs to seek help....a few days later he rejects the notion that there is any problems at all & that he doesn't need help, in fact it's everyone else fault (usually me) that makes him feel & behave that way.....& the cycle begins again.

I want it to work with him, I really do but I know it doesn't have a chance in hell if he doesn't face it, accept responsibility & seek treatment to learn how to control his outbursts & negative thoughts.
I'm exhausted.


So I asked a few questions in how I should respond to him

A) Outcome of ripping him a new one - Hexagram 64.2 < 35
(that was my initial knee-jerk reaction in wanting to put him in his place :rofl: )

B) Outcome of keeping it short & sweet & saying I stand by my words - Hexagram 55.5 < 49

C) Outcome of keeping it short & sweet & telling him that he didn't answer my questions - Hexagram 24.1.5 < Hexagram 8

D) Outcome of standing by my original words & also bring up something he'd said in the email - Hexagram 2 UC

E) Outcome of standing by my original words & calling his bluff - Hexagram 58.1 < 47
(by calling his bluff I meant on him saying he's got no issues & leaving him to it)


Am I right in thinking it's a case of the simplest answer is the best answer & B (55.1 > 49) is the better option?
Option C (Hex 24 - 8) on first glance looked like the perfect answer but I think the lines are just commenting on what has gone on between us.
I'm not sure of what to make of option E, 58.1 is a lovely line but I'm not sure of 47? Perhaps it speaks of how I'm feeling right now, exhausted with this whole push/pull mess.


Any commentary on the best option, input or experience of these Hex's & lines will be much appreciated :bows:
 

pooja123

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Hi, you drew too many hexs. One is sufficient. Drawing too many hexs doesnt help at all for any questions. What you really need to ask is what is the best action for me to take regarding so and so. and then draw the hex. Too many questions and too many hexs distorts a clear answer. Anyway I assume hex 64 is the first hex you drew. So the first hex 64.2 is your plan of action- Yi says, don't do anything. as the time is not right.

(james de Korne website)Editor: Wilhelm, Blofeld and Liu use the more forceful image of "brakes" instead of "dragging a wheel." The image is one of halting forward motion: Action will harm the Work unless it is stopped immediately. It is wise to remember Ritsema/Karcher's advice in the Judgment here: "No plan or direction is advantageous; in order to take advantage of the situation, do not impose a direction on events."

For as man gradually emerges from unconsciousness and learns to subdue his instinctive nature, making it serve him and his needs, he possesses himself of the energy that formerly resided in the natural process.
M.E. Harding -- Psychic Energy

A. "Cease and desist."

B. Slow down; curb your impatience to advance; control your enthusiasm; restrain your flights of fancy.
 

Newbie21

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Thank you for your reply Pooja

What you really need to ask is what is the best action for me to take regarding so and so. and then draw the hex.

I had actually asked a similar question after the phone call:

How do I deal with him this time - Hexagram 13 .2.5 > 14

Which I saw as him pushing me away (13.2), the difficulties will pass (13.5) & be noble, rise above it (14).
So I had told him I didn't approve of the way he spoke at me, that if he had an issue with me enrolling my daughter in a school here that all he had to do was ask me about it instead of jumping to consultations. I stated that I was disappointed about his backtracking after such a progressive conversation (with taking the step to get treatment). I told him I'd be in another part of his country at the end of the month but I wanted to come see him before that.
That just prompted him to placing the blame on me, saying he couldn't communicate with me.

So then I asked:

Show me how to respond to evoke a positive response/change in him - Hexagram 11 .1 > 46

I saw that as getting to the root of the problem, weeding it out, that it is more entangled then what he is presenting on the surface (his mental health). It also mentions like minded people....this prompted me to write the open & honest email as per the first post, detailing what I want in life, a partner, that I wanted him to be that partner, that I would have his back on whatever he needs to do to get to a happy & healthy place.....& that leads to the ongoings in the opening post.

The first post Hex's I cast on the same day. But the 13-14 & 11.46 was over the space of a few days, these were cast first.
So the timeline of castings were 13.2.5>14 & 11.1>46 & then the list of questions a few days later.


I don't know if this has any relevance but where he lives is South of me & a few of the Hex's I've cast have mentioned movement towards the South. "Departure toward the south brings good fortune" in 46 off the top of my head.
 

pooja123

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Don't do anything until after October 12. I did a Wen wang gua on the lines of all hexes. It is missing the love star or weak affection star. It is better for you to wait until he contacts you once he has sound of mind. Which is after 12th or 11th October.
 

pooja123

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Pls take note I didnt look at the hexes meanings. Just the yin and yang lines of the hexagrams. Each lines has 1 type of elements that represent either water, earth, fire, metal or wood. It is not the usual Iching interpretation.
 

Newbie21

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Thanks for your reply Pooja.
I'm not familar with wen wang gua method
 

hilary

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I agree with Pooja that you've missed out the one big, simple question: just ask for advice. 'What to do?' or 'Help??!?' are perfectly good, clear questions - and maybe Yi will suggest something you haven't thought of.

Non-reading-related question: you say he has BPD, but also that he hasn't sought treatment. When/ how was he diagnosed, then?

Non-reading-related thought: it might just not be possible to have the kind of relationship you want with someone who has serious mental health problems. I don't know - obviously.

I like 55.5, too. Would that approach represent a major change for you? If you tend to keep on trying to find new ways to communicate and connect, whenever the old ways don't work, then perhaps this could be something new for you.
 

my_key

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64.2 - 35.....Walk without getting caught up in the chaotic energies of the situation. Sit back, allow the energies to unfold and the resolution will become clear to you.
 

Newbie21

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Thank you Hilary & Mr Key for your input :bows:

@Hilary he hasn't been diagnosed, which is obviously a huge problem. I've known he''s been dealing with more than just depression all these years, thought he might be bi-polar but he didn't fit all the criteria so I've always tried to encourage him to seek professional help. I did ask 2 different psychologists how to go about encouraging him to seek help for himself, they asked me his patterns & behaviours & strongly suggested I have a look at BPD. When I did it was like puzzle pieces fitting together!
Obviously he needs to go get diagnosed himself by a professional so he can get the right care & treatment.
I don't like to throw labels around at all but researching about BPD it finally all made sense after 7yrs of chaos & confusion.

I haven't contacted him at all. I've some health issues at the moment so can't afford to be dragged back into one of his cycles.
I've also some serious exam finals coming up & I've realised I'm falling behind because I've been side tracked & have been emotionally burnt & exhausted from all this, so I need to focus on myself for now.
 

Newbie21

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I agree with Pooja that you've missed out the one big, simple question: just ask for advice. 'What to do?' or 'Help??!?' are perfectly good, clear questions - and maybe Yi will suggest something you haven't thought of..

I actually love this! Sometimes just a simple HELP! is an appropriate question in itself :)

So I took your advice & asked Yi:

Advice on what to do regarding him? Hexagram 60.1.5 > Hexagram 7


I saw this as maintaining my boundaries on what is acceptable & unacceptable behaviour. Not engaging with him when he kicks into his cycles maybe. Lead by example.
And that it cannot be fixed by one person alone, it requires a team (Hex 7).
With Hex 7 talking about experienced people, again I think this refers to getting professional help.

Lines 1 & 5 seem a little contradictory, Not going out (line 1) /Going brings esteem (line 5)

What do you all think?
 

MrKind

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It's less important that he has BPD, its more important that you probably have a huge codependency problem... you need to answer yourself, why youre trying to save someone from himself whilst you yourself need saving... and only you can do that.Think about it. Two people create a relationship. It's not only him who has a problem, you have it too as like attracts like and no healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person, period.
I want to help him but I realise you can't help someone that won't help themselves. We had made huge progress
Good that you already know this. Do yourself a favor and learn this lesson: progress with a BPD person looks like going in circles on a loop. Unless they don't save themselves, nobody will. You're just wasting your own life/health. Sorry to be honest and direct with you.I had those literally in my oldest set of bookmarks. Damn, that was a LONG time ago. Some might be less relevant to you, but its all a lot of useful info. I've dated a person who had a BPD. Never again.http://www.sharischreiber.com/needlove.html ***http://gettinbetter.com/fiftyways.html ***https://bpdfamily.com/http://www.me...erhttp://www.sharischreiber.com/articles.html - A lot of good ones!https://shrink4men.wordpress.com/2009/01/27/is-your-girlfriend-or-wife-a-professional-victim/ https://www.bpdcentral.com/help-for-families/familiar-fights/http://gettinbetter.com/salt.html ***https://bpdfamily.com/content/codep...antastic_list_of_codependency_signs_patterns/ https://old.reddit.com/r/BPDlovedon...expecting_the_unexpected_a_bpd_breakup_guide/ ***http://outofthefog.website/what-not...ources_going/https://old.reddit.com/r/BPD/The ones with *** are a must-read crucial stuff. Basically ingest it all until you can recite it in the middle of the night ;) knowledge is your best medicine now. There are great resources on the reddit, I'm sure you will find a lot of resemblance in between cases described by the people. The patterns are usually very similar. Talking with others anonymously is a very important part of the healing process. From my heart to yours - I wish you all the best & quick recovery on the way to finding yourself.Nothing lasts but nothing is lost.
 

Newbie21

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Thank you Mr. Kind for all your kind words & bountiful info! :bows:

I've actually delved deep into alot of those sites you've listed, & found knowledge is indeed power!

We've broken up for quite long periods over the years but he always comes back eventually (as is the on again/off again pattern of BPD's). What always drew me back in was guilt. Guilt because I know he doesn't have anyone else, no real friendships or bonds as he's burnt all his childhood friends or anyone that he gets close to.
I had made the decision a few mths ago (after finally having name/understanding of what was really going on) that I cannot not be in a relationship with him unless he is actively in treatment. I'm not even sure I can offer friendship or any kind of "ship" if that does not happen as I just can't be dragged through his cycles again.
Love can't come at the cost of my own well being or mental health......that's not really love.

I'm wondering now if the 60.1.5 > 7 with regard to asking for advice on what to do regarding him was in deed establishing my limits & boundaries, but that I need an army or perhaps strength of an army to protect them (Hex 7)?
 

MrKind

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We've broken up for quite long periods over the years but he always comes back eventually (as is the on again/off again pattern of BPD's). What always drew me back in was guilt. Guilt because I know he doesn't have anyone else, no real friendships or bonds as he's burnt all his childhood friends or anyone that he gets close to.
change ''he'' for ''I am''. it is NOT your job to SAVE HIM [or anyone - except yourself!] every adult being is solely responsible for his own actions. Let him go. This life is not about him, its about you. YOU.Youre not his mother. Or not Mother Theresa. Stop wasting your life immediately. You cannot save him. Why youre putting yourself up through the suffering? Why you cannot enjoy normal healthy relationship? I'll tell you: apart from massive codependency problem, you have a tremendous lack of self respect and self worth. No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period. At least you realizing its not love. Its not. It has nothing to do with love. Love means loving the other person in the way that the person feels free. Do you feel FREE? Do you? You need to fix yourself, learn how to build and have/ execute strong personal boundaries, learn self-worth, self-love and self-respect and only THEN start looking for a HEALTHY relationship. It won't happen with that person. It's a long process.And theres no turning back.Or... you can ruin your life and health by continuing to try to steer this sinking ship. Good luck.
 

equinox

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Why you cannot enjoy normal healthy relationship? I'll tell you: apart from massive codependency problem, you have a tremendous lack of self respect and self worth. No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period.

Your commitment in all honors, but what you write is quite presumptuous and I personally would be offended if someone would address such words to me. You can't just make diagnoses like "you have a massive codependency problem, you have a tremendous lack of self respect and self worth" -- or are you a psychologist? You pathalogize Newbie21. Not even a (serious) psychologist would dare to make such hard remote diagnoses.

Life is a little more complicated btw, you can't just say "No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period." You can very well be 'healthy' and love a mentally ill person -- but that of course requires a lot of strength and the willingness of the other person to work on his or her psychological problems.
 
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MrKind

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Feel free to be offended, just like I feel free to free speech - we can't assume adult people can't take a little bit of constructive criticism. Again, a person with a healthy self-esteem wouldn't be offended by it. Yes, I do have a life coaching background. Sometimes it's necessary to ''shake'' some beliefs from the person. Political correctness is killing us. I studied BPD/codependency for over 7 years. It always looks the same. Same arguments, same situations, same excuses. But if you think only a doctor in a white coat can make a diagnosis and has uber-authority to make claims about people's health, well, you're mistaken.
You can very well be 'healthy' and love a mentally ill person
- don't forget it is always your own choice. People only treat you the way you allow them to.
Life is a little more complicated btw, you can't just say "No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period." You can very well be 'healthy' and love a mentally ill person -- but that of course requires a lot of strength and the willingness of the other person to work on his or her psychological problems.
I can and I just did ;) Life is simple. People love to complicate it. Some things never work out. Like relationships with people with BPD. I personally knew a person who was in such ''relationship'' for like 20 years. He ended up with cancer due to prolonged stress. He also thought he was making ''progress'' which was only running around in circles. But he had something else to consider- kids. Remember that at the end of the day, nobody forces her to be with that person. And it's always two people to dance.
 

MrKind

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Anyway, I see your point. And my intentions are clear. On this forum, anyone can find various opinions thats what it makes it great. Newbie21 is free to pick the one she prefers to. If she is 21yo, then its even more important to stop wasting her life on a lost cause and suffer, and call it ''love''. Just my 2 cents.
 

Trojina

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I was about to post sentiments along the same lines (as equinox) last night but didn't fancy an argument (and still don't want one or intend to have one) but it's true


I do worry sometimes about the puritanical zeal for health, here and from others, as if health were the some kind of indication of worth. It isn't.


every adult being is solely responsible for his own actions.


Well also every adult being leans on others and needs others at times especially when sick or troubled.

I agree with you on the whole that it isn't her job to save him and so on but things aren't always so black and white and the dividing line between healthy and unhealthy isn't so clear as you seem to think


Let him go. This life is not about him, its about you. YOU.Youre not his mother. Or not Mother Theresa. Stop wasting your life immediately. You cannot save him. Why youre putting yourself up through the suffering? Why you cannot enjoy normal healthy relationship? I'll tell you: apart from massive codependency problem, you have a tremendous lack of self respect and self worth.

I agree with the gist of what you're saying except I don't think there really is a 'normal healthy relationship' not that I have ever witnessed anyway. Who defines it ? You use the word 'health' a lot as an indicator of worth it seems. That does worry me a bit.

Health is just health, it is not a virtue nor does it equate to moral worth or goodness. Healthy people aren't intrinsically 'better' than unhealthy ones.



No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period.


Are you including all kinds of health physical and mental in this statement ? I was once in a relationship with someone who I knew would die well before me, he wasn't healthy. So was it unhealthy of me to want to be with him ? It comes across like you are saying unhealthy people are people to shun which reminds me of Hitler's policies to rid the state of the weak, infirm, mentally ill and so on.


I've mentioned it before this health worship, being healthy as a religion almost, has a very dark underside to it with an underlying belief that healthy people are 'better' people. I saw Moss Elk's post on defining inferior and superior in terms of health and that worried me a bit but will go over there


Guess what there's not so much difference between 'healthy' and 'unhealthy'. Any one of us can become ill tomorrow so does that mean as soon as we do all our healthy partners and friends should shun us ?

And what of the marriage vows 'in sickness and in health'. What if you get into a relationship with or marry someone when they are healthy and then further down the line they become mentally ill or have a breakdown or get cancer ? Do you end the relationship with them because 'no healthy person would want to be with an unhealthy person'.


We are all potentially unhealthy. I can tell you from experience it doesn't matter what you eat or how much exercise you do no one is safe from getting cancer or any other illness. So this imagined divide between healthy and unhealthy is partly delusory.


Also being healthy isn't a virtue nor a measure of anyone's worth and if a person loves someone who isn't healthy it's because love has absolutely sod all to do with being healthy or not.

Aha we are on to love

At least you realizing its not love. Its not. It has nothing to do with love. Love means loving the other person in the way that the person feels free. Do you feel FREE? Do you? You need to fix yourself, learn how to build and have/ execute strong personal boundaries, learn self-worth, self-love and self-respect and only THEN start looking for a HEALTHY relationship.

Only the healthy deserve love then ? What if a person has chronic disease, heart disease or some other illness does that make them so unworthy that the one who cares for them is suffering from a lack of boundaries ?


It won't happen with that person. It's a long process.And theres no turning back.Or... you can ruin your life and health by continuing to try to steer this sinking ship. Good luck.


It's true it may ruin her life and health but then reading around the forum do you read of any relationships that can't potentially ruin people's health and life.


I think the real sickness is viewing the relationship as a commodity where you would only buy a healthy specimen and anyone who doesn't wants their head examined and in your words

You need to fix yourself, learn how to build and have/ execute strong personal boundaries, learn self-worth, self-love and self-respectd


I get where you are coming from, it's true this connection sounds problematic not the least because one party has diagnosed the other party as needing treatment where the other party doesn't see the need for it/doesn't want it. That's never going to be a good recipe

That's the problem with these so called 'personality disorders' is they tend to be applied, in every day speech, to people one either dislikes or disapproves of. I think that's an American trend, I notice it far more with Americans that they will say things like 'X is a narcissist' as if it were a fact and so on. I think you could take the description of BPD and apply it to a huge number of people so unless there is an actual diagnosis from a clinician then can the term just be applied to someone ?
 

Trojina

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People only treat you the way you allow them to.


That's self evidently not true. All part of the dark underbelly of the New Age 'you create your own reality/positive thinking and health are gods'.


We cannot always control how people treat us, they don't always ask permission to attack.


I can and I just did ;) Life is simple. People love to complicate it. Some things never work out. Like relationships with people with BPD. I personally knew a person who was in such ''relationship'' for like 20 years. He ended up with cancer due to prolonged stress.

You don't know that he got cancer due to prolonged stress as a fact so you have no real basis to say it. It's all part of the illusion that if you just live right and eat right you won't get sick or have bad relationships and nothing bad will ever happen to you because you are a saint, a 'healthy person'.


The dark side of this is a lack of compassion for and denial of other's suffering which can be cruel.


And this is offensive to any one with any kind of health problem


. No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period.


In this instance I see you are saying that with his issues there's not much there for her but as a general statement it's the Fascism of the New Age baloney.


Feel free to be offended, just like I feel free to free speech - we can't assume adult people can't take a little bit of constructive criticism. Again, a person with a healthy self-esteem wouldn't be


This is hilarious and breaks forum rules since you are making a comment indirectly about equinox's self esteem.
 
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diamanda

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This modern approach of 'disorders', 'health', and so on, indeed complicates things needlessly.

When someone consistently abuses us and treats us badly, it's irrelevant what makes that person treat us thus. Continuous prolonged stress does lead to disease and death. So it's up to the individual to decide if they want to remain a victim of abuse, to their own detriment, or not. If the individual decides to continue accepting abuse, how is that individual 'healthy' though?

It has been clear so far, from all Newbie's posts, that this guy treats her consistently badly, and when she needs him of course he's not there. And yet she stays and takes it, year after year, for years, and makes up all sorts of excuses about how he needs to be 'cured'. It's a no-brainer.
 

Trojina

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Continuous prolonged stress does lead to disease and death.


It certainly can be one of the factors but it's not possible to say categorically

He ended up with cancer due to prolonged stress.

as there's not the evidence, it would be impossible to prove that that was the only cause, it could be any number of things or a combination of things.
 

equinox

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You don't have to explain the implications of BPD to me, that's not the point. It was about you pathologizing forum participants.

But if you think only a doctor in a white coat can make a diagnosis and has uber-authority to make claims about people's health, well, you're mistaken.

I'm generally very skeptical about diagnoses. Even more if some self-proclaimed lifecoaches place them in internet forums.

Since you are well-read and like to give literature tips, I'll also have one for you, so that you can expand your knowledge in methodological terms. Read for a start Michel Foucault's "Madness and Civilization: A History of Insanity in the Age of Reason." In it you learn that the division of people into 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' resp. 'sane' and 'insane' has always been an instrument to stabilize power relations within a society and what problematic inclusions and exclusions take place in this process. It would be a good read for someone like you, who argues with this vocabulary all the time.

Almost everyone in your world-- your colleagues, the neighbours, your potential romantic interests etc. -- are "toxic", "unhealthy", "undeveloped" anyway. Basically there is almost no post here in the forum that doesn't mention these attributes. I think that may actually say more about you than about your environment.
 
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diamanda

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Sure, agreed we can't be certain that stress was the only cause of that cancer.

However, it is well established medically that prolonged stress means prolonged increase of cortisol, which truly batters one's physical health and leads to disease.
 

MrKind

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You're free to remain with your opinions and perceptions of reality, so do I. Let it makes us all free. :)
 

marybluesky

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I don't think there really is a 'normal healthy relationship' not that I have ever witnessed anyway.
I haven't either, Trojina. Maybe I haven't been lucky enough, but never witnessed the incarnation of the perfect relationships pictured in the movies and so on where two flawless people worship one-another.
Healthy people aren't intrinsically 'better' than unhealthy ones.
Agree. Maybe you don't want to deal with the problems of an unhealthy person and that's OK- it's a hard task that you aren't expected to take- however the "health", at least in its common definition which focuses on the outwardly visible factors, is no indicator of good people/good relationships. Some of the most sincere, loving and reliable people I've met in my life go through episodes of sever depression/bipolar disorder from time to time.
Guess what there's not so much difference between 'healthy' and 'unhealthy'. Any one of us can become ill tomorrow ... We are all potentially unhealthy. I can tell you from experience it doesn't matter what you eat or how much exercise you do no one is safe from getting cancer or any other illness. So this imagined divide between healthy and unhealthy is partly delusory.
That's true. Human beings are much more fragile that they think. Strong, healthy people may become mentally/physically ill very easily. And the line between healthy/unhealthy is really narrow. Once you pass it, the symptoms are visible. It doesn't necessarily mean that you were far from the illness before.
I think the real sickness is viewing the relationship as a commodity.
Yeah. The real unhealthy people in relationships are the ones who dig for benefits with minimum cost.
 

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It's less important that he has BPD, its more important that you probably have a huge codependency problem
This modern approach of 'disorders', 'health', and so on, indeed complicates things needlessly. When someone consistently abuses us and treats us badly, it's irrelevant what makes that person treat us thus.
That's the point.
 
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MrKind

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The ''healthiness'' you were talking about has nothing to do with physical health or diet, in a way. You just assumed something I never said. And then developed on that , going to the ridiculous points of trying to imply I was disrespecting someone etc. I was talking about being healthy in a mental sense, having good energy. People who are toxic often have bad eating habits, dont care about their health etc. which further creates more erratic emotions in them. Unhealthy people tend to have negative emotions towards others, they blackmail, back-stab, lie compulsively, use others, manipulate, and so on and so forth. So in a way, healthy living often is also connected to that, not always but its usually a good indicator. If you're attracted to people like that, and not repulsed by them means that you have a problem. Because like attracts like. I don't feel attracted towards people who ridicule me behind my back, I feel repulsed by them. And yeah, decade ago I was attracted to unhealthy relationships and people like that because I had things in my past that were causing this weakness. Long story. Anyway, no point in talking about it. I dont need or want to convince you and you dont want to be convinced either. But saying that healthy equals unhealthy is madness :) Everyone has capability to become a liar or a murderer, agreed on that but what matters is if you do choose to become one.
 

MrKind

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Healthy relationship is [gradually speaking] when both people don't NEED the other person, they are perfectly fine with being on their own, have healthy boundaries and healthy self-esteem. They don't cling or expect others to heal their own illnesses, or looking for excuses. When both partners come out from a point of being perfectly happy with themselves and their own lives, then they can walk a path together. Not from a standpoint of needing/codependence but from a standpoint of mature, adult love that does not cling and its not needy, but allows the other person to love freely. Without expectations. The relation she described does not describe such arrangement. It's not better or worse, I wasnt telling that. It will only have its own consequences, as everything. Thats is all.Anyway, good luck and God bless. [with a new-ageish wink] I recommend to not take things so serious sometimes. :)
 

marybluesky

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MrKind I just agreed with some points Trojina made. It wasn't about disagreement with you.
I supported what you and Diamanda wrote about abusive relationships in my next post.
 

marybluesky

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Unhealthy people tend to have negative emotions towards others, they blackmail, back-stab, lie compulsively, use others, manipulate, and so on and so forth.
Now look at the last line of my answer to Trojina:
The real unhealthy people in relationships are the ones who dig for benefits with minimum cost.
We are basically saying the same thing. There are differences but not to the point of opposition. I guess you think I'm against you because I agreed with Trojina.
Again, the relationship Newbie is describing is problematic and I'm not supporting the guy's behavior. That's another story.
 

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MrKind
You're free to remain with your opinions and perceptions of reality, so do I. Let it makes us all free.

okay ...

then.....

MrKind
The ''healthiness'' you were talking about has nothing to do with physical health or diet, in a way. You just assumed something I never said. And then developed on that , going to the ridiculous points of trying to imply I was disrespecting someone etc.


It's not clear who you are addressing. It's not clear what you mean either. When you say

The ''healthiness'' you were talking about has nothing to do with physical health or diet, in a way.


...did you mean the 'healthiness you, Mr Kind was talking about - :confused:


Oh yes I think you did mean you


I was talking about being healthy in a mental sense, having good energy. People who are toxic often have bad eating habits, dont care about their health etc. which further creates more erratic emotions in them.


Well I don't see this clear cut division in the population to be honest. I see some good kind happy people with crap diets and I see some good kind happy people with good diets and frankly I see no connection whatsoever between a person's moral worth and what they put in their mouth. I have a lovely friend with multiple illnesses who doesn't worry too much about any of them and who would never ever go around calling people things like this

they are mostly undeveloped, toxic, etc... really low level.


..which are words you use about people

Unhealthy people tend to have negative emotions towards others,

...well doesn't that make you unhealthy then because you describe most people as 'undeveloped' and 'toxic' and 'low level'.... in many threads you post here so isn't it obvious that you too have negative emotions towards others just like most people do at times. I think you are using 'healthy to mean 'good' but using 'healthy' in that sense carries a lot of judgements about ideal ways of being according to who's standards we aren't sure ...

they blackmail, back-stab, lie compulsively, use others, manipulate, and so on and so forth. So in a way, healthy living often is also connected to that, not always but its usually a good indicator. If you're attracted to people like that, and not repulsed by them means that you have a problem.


Have you ever studied sociology and crime ? Have you thought about connecting crime of certain kinds to poverty and lack of education and other sociological societal issues ? Anyway the idea that 'healthy living' by which I think you mean doing yoga, not drinking and eating lettuce, meditating etc etc is a good indicator that someone won't be a liar a blackmailer or a back stabber is quaint.


Because like attracts like.

Well that's the slogan of the moment yes - and a rather worn one at that. What are you saying 'only the fittest attract the fittest'. You never answered my point about what you do when you marry someone in good health then they have a breakdown...where does the slogan come in then ? Rhetorical question.

I don't feel attracted towards people who ridicule me behind my back, I feel repulsed by them. And yeah, decade ago I was attracted to unhealthy relationships and people like that because I had things in my past that were causing this weakness. Long story. Anyway, no point in talking about it. I dont need or want to convince you and you dont want to be convinced either. But saying that healthy equals unhealthy is madness Everyone has capability to become a liar or a murderer, agreed on that but what matters is if you do choose to become one.


Back to your view of segregation where you classify yourself as healthy and others as not healthy when you aren't even taking about physical health or even health in any sense but moral worth and you link moral worth to lifestyle which is a problematic because lifestyle is to some extent governed by a variety of over lapping factors, class, income and a whole host of other variables which you cannot possibly see when you meet someone.


I think perhaps there's a better word to use than 'healthy' when you are actually talking about moral worth. It doesn't make sense to call a murderer just 'unhealthy' - there are a hundred different kinds of murder with many different backgrounds and causes. Just saying anyone with difficult or negative emotions is 'unhealthy' means very little.

I think you are right though there's no point in further discussion of this others is quite it's off topic for one thing but it came up because of this


Why you cannot enjoy normal healthy relationship? I'll tell you: apart from massive codependency problem, you have a tremendous lack of self respect and self worth. No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person. Period. At least you realizing its not love. Its not. It has nothing to do with love. Love means loving the other person in the way that the person feels free. Do you feel FREE? Do you? You need to fix yourself, learn how to build and have/ execute strong personal boundaries, learn self-worth, self-love and self-respect and only THEN start looking for a HEALTHY relationship.


….as equinox pointed out this was the point

equinox
You don't have to explain the implications of BPD to me, that's not the point. It was about you pathologizing forum participants.


So the initial point was this is a problem statement

No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person


so you have indicated the querent is unhealthy for wanting to continue.



Anyway there's no point in going on. If a post is that problematic then you, I, someone, would report it rather than spend pages arguing about it. All this is I think is a questioning of how you worded your post. It isn't a denial that being in abusive relationships is a bad idea. So let's stop talking about it. Oh another one


MrKind
Healthy relationship is [gradually speaking] when both people don't NEED the other person, they are perfectly fine with being on their own, have healthy boundaries and healthy self-esteem. They don't cling or expect others to heal their own illnesses, or looking for excuses.


Yes I have heard and read a lot about these phantom healthy relationships where healthy people have healthy boundaries and healthy self esteem. (that's a lot of 'healthys') Never seen any in real life so I think it's a load of bollocks really. I also have my doubts about 'co-dependency' I mean it's yet another label to toss at random. If these people are so needless then why would they bother with anyone at all ? This ideal you describe is textbook stuff. Of course people need each other . I can just envisage a whole society of healthy needless robots screwing each other now and then whilst maintaining healthy boundaries and healthy self esteem :rolleyes:


One more thing, equinox mentioned this and it is important

Since you are well-read and like to give literature tips, I'll also have one for you, so that you can expand your knowledge in methodological terms. Read for a start Michel Foucault's "Madness and Civilization: A History of Insanity in the Age of Reason." In it you learn that the division of people into 'healthy' and 'unhealthy' resp. 'sane' and 'insane' has always been an instrument to stabilize power relations within a society and what problematic inclusions and exclusions take place in this process. It would be a good read for someone like you, who argues with this vocabulary all the time.


It's relevant to how you use the term 'healthy'. Whilst we use the term 'mental health' and we know what we mean don't forget what is considered mentally 'healthy' or not changes drastically from generation to generation. Sometimes perfectly sane people have been called 'unhealthy' or 'mad' when they depart form the norms of their times. It's not so long ago that women were incarcerated for a life time for having illegitimate children for example.

You said the querent was unhealthy because she wanted to be with an unhealthy person. You said to use your words she had a 'massive co dependency problem'

Why you cannot enjoy normal healthy relationship? I'll tell you: apart from massive codependency problem, you have a tremendous lack of self respect and self worth

Here you are diagnosing someone ...


When both partners come out from a point of being perfectly happy with themselves and their own lives, then they can walk a path together. Not from a standpoint of needing/codependence but from a standpoint of mature, adult love that does not cling and its not needy, but allows the other person to love freely


Okay - so that's the theory so where is the reality ? have you achieved that yourself ? Can you point at another couple and say that they have ? If you think you can how do you know ? You don't know what happens between them. I suspect if we did know about the hidden parts of other's relationships we'd think they were all barking mad because people aren't text book/life coach book material.


This that you describe is just text book twaddle of Mr and Mrs Healthy who don't exist in the real world.



Without expectations. The relation she described does not describe such arrangement. It's not better or worse, I wasnt telling that. It will only have its own consequences, as everything. Thats is all.Anyway, good luck and God bless. [with a new-ageish wink] I recommend to not take things so serious sometimes.



You've totally missed the point haven't you. I don't think anyone was saying this looked like a promising relationship. This conversation arose because you diagnosed the querent as an unhealthy person in your post and equinox picked up on it and so did I.



So perhaps we can end the conversation as it is off topic anyway. As I said if it was considered that problematic your post could be reported and hasn't been as far as I know so we've just been discussing your post, your diagnoses of the querent and in particular your statement
No healthy person would want to be with unhealthy person


...which of course implies the querent is unhealthy

I'm not interested in further discussion really so if you aren't either, and I don't think you are listening anyway we may as well end the conversation.


Toodlepip and 'stay healthy' ;)
 
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