Clarity,
Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom
Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).
Thanks a lot cjgait, I just finish reading this reference paper. I agree with a lot of what it is articulating.
Discovery At Casino
- Thread starter jzy369
- Start date
Thanks a lot cjgait, I just finish reading this reference paper. I agree with a lot of what it is articulating.
cjgait's reference article articulates a view on righteousness which I think is fair: IC text was drafted as future is probablistic and not given. Thus righteousness was advocated throughout.
I have also read in some New Age books that future is composed of parallel deterministic universes and we just make conscious choice of which reality we want to go through.
Upon reading the references and responses, my summary thought is as follows. These two views may not be totally correct on their own. But if we equate righteous actions to actions that generate "auspicuous/no-regret" outcome, then there are values to maximize universal benefits by practicing righteousness regardless if you have probablistic future view or parallel-deterministic view. The hard part is that we are uncertain whether our action will generate auspiciousness even if our original intention may be righteous. Maybe IC's role is to help us lower such uncertainties. As always, your further comments are greatly appreciated.
I have also read in some New Age books that future is composed of parallel deterministic universes and we just make conscious choice of which reality we want to go through.
Upon reading the references and responses, my summary thought is as follows. These two views may not be totally correct on their own. But if we equate righteous actions to actions that generate "auspicuous/no-regret" outcome, then there are values to maximize universal benefits by practicing righteousness regardless if you have probablistic future view or parallel-deterministic view. The hard part is that we are uncertain whether our action will generate auspiciousness even if our original intention may be righteous. Maybe IC's role is to help us lower such uncertainties. As always, your further comments are greatly appreciated.
My goodness, hex 15 is the ONLY hex in IC which every line text is positive, no warning, no regret, no misfortune: auspicious, auspicious, auspicious, no disadvantages, no disadvantages, advantageous to advance. No other set of hex text can be luckier than this. Thus 15 is also my favorite hex.
Wow, isn't IC witty or what?
- Joined
- Jan 25, 2007
- Messages
- 3,566
- Reaction score
- 136
I suppose there's a reason for that: it's the most difficult hexagram to embody: authenticity and humility.
C
cjgait
Guest
John is closing in on classic Confucianism in the Yi. By that I mean not the Song Dynasty neo-Confucian approach, but the old fashioned Confucianism reflected in the Analects and the Xun Zi.
As I interpret it (as a non-authority on Confucianism, but essentially a Confucianist in my views), the Yi is used in self-development and social action. It acknowledges that all people are different and thus, like Kongzi (Confucius) gives different answers to different disciples on the same question. At about the same time the Zhou Dynasty took over in China and the Yi was written the religious views of the country changed quite radically. The move was from the Shang Dynasty spirituality based on supernatural outcomes (i.e. ancestors who were beings in need of food that would benefit or harm their descendants. These same ancestors were the agents to whom questions were addressed in the oracle bones. Only, it was a form of 'performative utterance' as Austin calls it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance. The Shang had a quid-pro-quo going with the Spirits, and their divination was simple yes, no, maybe. Their divination was as much a magickal spell as it was a question, and deeply integrated into the system of sacrifices used to preserve the status quo, repair and prevent disasters, etc.
With the coming of the Zhou in the 10th century BCE, and the composition of the Zhou Yi (the core of the Yi Jing), the focus moved from a world of Spirits in which man functioned as mere pawns to a human world with the Spirits as a functional component. In the 800 years of the Zhou Dynasty thinking moved from theistic, supernatural thinking to a system which, although it acknowledged the supernatural, still put the stress on the here and now---Confucianism, winner of the multi-way melee of POVs in pre-Han China. My favorite quote from Kongzi is: Do good for others in the world, respect the Spirits, but keep your distances, this is wisdom. (Analects 6: 22).
The element of Ming 命 (fate, though nuanced differently as a Chinese word) evolved. The sage was always the ideal, a perfected person, someone who had developed their humanity Ren (仁) until their De (德) virtue/potency was such that all under Heaven fell into place. The Zhou came from the western borders of the Shang realm and they were sky worshippers, so Heaven, and the Ming of Heaven, came to be a deciding factor in many parts of life. On the scale of the empire as a whole the Ming is the 'mandate of Heaven' that allowed for dynastic change when the current regime had become unbearably oppressive (instead of just oppressive, the political norm throughout most of human history).
Heaven could not be bought off with a few sacrifices. It took the sacrifices as its due, but even that sentence personalizes the concept too much. Heaven became an arbitrary actor in human affairs with one key element: It had a positive spin.
There is an old saying: Heaven is unbiased. It always favors the good. This paradoxical saying shows that there is a Li (禮), the pattern that underlies society, history, religion, science and also are the matrix of reality the pattern we uncover as we open our eyes to the vast keeps of space.
There is a slight positive spin to all things in the observed universe, and it is that positive bias that the intelligent ruler (or person trying to live intelligently) will use as a surfboard. The sage surfs the waves of change using tools like the Yi Jing and the Jiao Shi Yi Lin as an instrument to resolve doubts. They act with humanity (altruism), but they are not naive. Someone asked Kongzi, if told there was a person in a well, would a good person go in after them. The master replied, "Why should he do so? A better person may go to it, but cannot be made to go down into it. One may be deceived, but cannot be led astray."
The Confucianist always acts based on a moral compass of Ren, Li and Yi (righteousness), but accepts the existence of Ming, the element of chance as well as the agency of fate. Thus, someone can win and their victory is not accounted beneficial to humanity. They can lose and the loss be auspicious for humanity. The overall model is just slightly altruistic, just a touch on the positive side. That's what keeps the world spinning. But everyone plays their role as the system evolves from crude to refined, simple to complex.
As I interpret it (as a non-authority on Confucianism, but essentially a Confucianist in my views), the Yi is used in self-development and social action. It acknowledges that all people are different and thus, like Kongzi (Confucius) gives different answers to different disciples on the same question. At about the same time the Zhou Dynasty took over in China and the Yi was written the religious views of the country changed quite radically. The move was from the Shang Dynasty spirituality based on supernatural outcomes (i.e. ancestors who were beings in need of food that would benefit or harm their descendants. These same ancestors were the agents to whom questions were addressed in the oracle bones. Only, it was a form of 'performative utterance' as Austin calls it (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Performative_utterance. The Shang had a quid-pro-quo going with the Spirits, and their divination was simple yes, no, maybe. Their divination was as much a magickal spell as it was a question, and deeply integrated into the system of sacrifices used to preserve the status quo, repair and prevent disasters, etc.
With the coming of the Zhou in the 10th century BCE, and the composition of the Zhou Yi (the core of the Yi Jing), the focus moved from a world of Spirits in which man functioned as mere pawns to a human world with the Spirits as a functional component. In the 800 years of the Zhou Dynasty thinking moved from theistic, supernatural thinking to a system which, although it acknowledged the supernatural, still put the stress on the here and now---Confucianism, winner of the multi-way melee of POVs in pre-Han China. My favorite quote from Kongzi is: Do good for others in the world, respect the Spirits, but keep your distances, this is wisdom. (Analects 6: 22).
The element of Ming 命 (fate, though nuanced differently as a Chinese word) evolved. The sage was always the ideal, a perfected person, someone who had developed their humanity Ren (仁) until their De (德) virtue/potency was such that all under Heaven fell into place. The Zhou came from the western borders of the Shang realm and they were sky worshippers, so Heaven, and the Ming of Heaven, came to be a deciding factor in many parts of life. On the scale of the empire as a whole the Ming is the 'mandate of Heaven' that allowed for dynastic change when the current regime had become unbearably oppressive (instead of just oppressive, the political norm throughout most of human history).
Heaven could not be bought off with a few sacrifices. It took the sacrifices as its due, but even that sentence personalizes the concept too much. Heaven became an arbitrary actor in human affairs with one key element: It had a positive spin.
There is an old saying: Heaven is unbiased. It always favors the good. This paradoxical saying shows that there is a Li (禮), the pattern that underlies society, history, religion, science and also are the matrix of reality the pattern we uncover as we open our eyes to the vast keeps of space.
There is a slight positive spin to all things in the observed universe, and it is that positive bias that the intelligent ruler (or person trying to live intelligently) will use as a surfboard. The sage surfs the waves of change using tools like the Yi Jing and the Jiao Shi Yi Lin as an instrument to resolve doubts. They act with humanity (altruism), but they are not naive. Someone asked Kongzi, if told there was a person in a well, would a good person go in after them. The master replied, "Why should he do so? A better person may go to it, but cannot be made to go down into it. One may be deceived, but cannot be led astray."
The Confucianist always acts based on a moral compass of Ren, Li and Yi (righteousness), but accepts the existence of Ming, the element of chance as well as the agency of fate. Thus, someone can win and their victory is not accounted beneficial to humanity. They can lose and the loss be auspicious for humanity. The overall model is just slightly altruistic, just a touch on the positive side. That's what keeps the world spinning. But everyone plays their role as the system evolves from crude to refined, simple to complex.
Last edited:
- Joined
- May 29, 2006
- Messages
- 27,013
- Reaction score
- 4,511
Just bear in mind, as no doubt you already do, that people have very diverse opinions here, there won't be a consensual 'bottom' of any question so you will have to find your own bottom
for example I don't agree with this in any way.
It's an opinion that's all, not a fact, an opinion which cgait is entitled to but it certainly isn't one I agree with.
So be aware people are answering from very different perspectives. I mention it because sometimes people arrive here and think there is a consensus when there isn't.
C
cjgait
Guest
Trojina makes an excellent point. There are atheists here, Christians, Jews, Pagans, Daoists, Confucianists of various types, there may even be a Zoroastrian in hiding for all we know. A wide variety of opinions and points of view. But everyone respects everyone else, so it makes for good conversation.
Regards,
Chris Gait
Regards,
Chris Gait