Does the ICHING help you do evil?

[pagan]

Like help you plot to commit adultery or fraud or cheat? I know a woman who uses the ICHING to help her keep ahold of a married man. I know of a guy who uses the ICHING to check whether his drug deals will go as planned. It sort of irks me that the Sage would stoop down to that.
P.

 

[kevin]

I have always found the Yi leads one down a good path... But it is great at setting folk up

--Kevin

 

[kevin]

Thinks... I will qualify that a little... The Yi can also lead one into very difficult situations even when one wants to do 'good'.

Perhaps it leads us through our Karma?

Perhaps the idea of good and bad are too simplistic?

Like the murderer who unwittingly kills the person who would do greater harm to others... or the drug dealer who by dealing his poison enales others to fulfill their path of (perhaps) falling into the pit of loss and salvation of self?

Intresting idea though.

--Kevin

 

[candid]

I believe that eventually an opportunist who uses Yi to their own selfish ends will experience misfortune through following Yi?s advise. Tao is self-correcting, given enough time. 19 is an image of the Overseer. According to this, in the ninth month there will be misfortune. The only way to avoid it is by tending to each step in every moment with an eye toward the greater good. If one is careful in this, they can avoid the rebound of opposites which lead to misfortune. If one, on the other hand, uses Yi exclusively to further their own gratification, by nine months they will reap the opposite of all they?ve gained.

 

[jerryd]

Humans always find a way to use a good method to advantage and the sad fact there are some very intelligent bad people out among us. Most of todays really bad guys have paid astrologers and clergy and psychics and big brother doing for them. Most with sofisticared computers which do what the Yi does for us.??? whos the disadvantaged?

 

[cguleff]

This is interesting . . . I've known "evil" people who used psychic methods as part of their modus operandi. The funny thing was that they often did not get it right. They would tell me about a dreams filled with negative symbols and messages, and they would think these were good dreams! The way they used divination and magic seemed to cause more frustration than help.

Chris

 

[dobro p]

My understanding is that anybody can access it for any purpose they like. However, as always, the choices a person makes, which includes the harm they do to others, immediately and eventually has its effect on his/her soul/karma.

Which means that although it's dumb (uninformed, self-defeating, counterproductive) to harm others, it's doubly dumb to enlist the aid of the oracle in this - you just compound the effect.

 

[malka]

Dobro,
I agree very much. I doubt that the Yi makes judgements about what kind of assistance it will offer. Yi responds to what we ask. Yi responds honestly. Our free will to ask and use info is just that -- it's our choices and our karma at play. To ask how Yi could assist someone to do "evil" is like asking how G-d could have assisted Einstein in creating the technology behind the H Bomb. The knowledge is out there to be known. It wasn't G-d's choice how to use it, it was a human beings choice. Same with the Yi.

My two cents worth.

Malka

 

[motti]

If TAO`S work lies at the tip of your tongue and the tips of your fingers, then you must learn to play like Louis Armstrong.

 

[lindsay]

In some ways, a more interesting question is, Does the I Ching help you do good?

Perhaps not, if Yi is as morally neutral as some people think.

I know there is a lot of advice in the Yi, but it seems to concern being successful more than being good. It helps you do the thing that works rather than the "right" thing. Perhaps if one's objective is to be a good person, one should go about pursuing it like any other goal or objective? Then, good old practical Yi could help you achieve a measure of success (goodness).

I'm still not sure Yi contains a blueprint for sainthood.

 

[martin]

Dear Yi, I suspect that you help us to get what we need, not what we want, be it "good" or "bad".
Do you agree?

Yi: 11.3

"The third line, undivided, shows that, while there is no state of peace that is not liable to be disturbed, and no departure of evil men so that they shall not return, yet when one is firm and correct, as he realizes the distresses that may arise, he will commit no error. There is no occasion for sadness at the certainty of such recurring changes; and in this mood the happiness of the present may be long enjoyed." (Legge)

Don't know if that is affirmative but for some reason it makes me smile.

 

[grndultimte]

Interesting topic,

I agree with the aforementioned- Yi just answers our questions. It has to be neutral if we as humans TRULY have free will. The Yi Jing may show us information that we need, but as of late I'm learning I'm still the one that has to follow up on the Cosmic Tip-off if you will.

Grnd

 

[dobro p]

Here's a wrinkle to consider though:

I'm sure if you've used the Yi for any length of time, you've had the experience of asking a question and then getting a response from the Yi that appears to have nothing to do with your question. It's as if the Yi has a mind of its own. If the Yi is not a being separate from us, then the only way I can think of to explain this is the difference in focus that often exists between conscious and unconscious mind - you think the issue is A, but deep down the issue at the level of unconscious mind is B, and the oracle reflects the deeper, more important issue.

Yes? No?

 

[jte]

Hrmm. Is it "firm correctness" or "perserverance"?

If I was asking about an evil action, I could imagine having very different views about what my answer meant depending on how this term was translated.

So perhaps the specific book we use has an impact on how we view answers about things like this.

Given the view that Yi is, ultimately, communication with an external entity, it's natural to think it would be making some calls about how to answer. Pehaps on a case-by-case basis; something like, what would be best for this poor person who's asking me *this*. Versus, wow this other person really needs to experience consequences to learn from their mistakes.

Of course, I could be wrong. Definitely still think it's a real bad idea to ask the Yi how to do evil things...

- Jeff

 

[candid]

Interesting wrinkle, Dobro.

"I'm sure if you've used the Yi for any length of time, you've had the experience of asking a question and then getting a response from the Yi that appears to have nothing to do with your question."

Sort of like being surprised or shocked in a dream. Where DOES that come from, anyway?

"the difference in focus that often exists between conscious and unconscious mind - you think the issue is A, but deep down the issue at the level of unconscious mind is B, and the oracle reflects the deeper, more important issue."

I think that's a BINGO!

Ok, this is going to sound a little nutso. As a student of human nature and the unusual, I?m told by those who intermediate between the living and the ?dead?, one constant thread: those on ?that? side do not experience the hardness of human character that we employ. They seem to have lost that shell along with their bodies, and become as children in their naiveté. This might help to understand the dualistic relationship we have with the Yi. The great Sage laughs and dances while we reverently burn candles and sage. If there?s one lesson the Yi has repeatedly taught me, it?s this: I take myself and this life, in general, WAY too seriously.

?Lighten up,? says the Sage, ?and for God?s sake ? stop with the worrying already! You?re self-obsessing! Can I convince you for one minute to stop thinking about yourself? What kind of sagelette do you portend to be, young one? To whom can I entrust you with to guide when all you think about is you and your own important little world??

So perhaps we really do already exist on that side. Or maybe there actually are Spirit Guides. Maybe Yi is an overworked, underpaid Dude in the sky. I?m betting on the first.

 

[megabbobby]

according to the tibetan book of the dead anything that's less than total nirvana is at least one degree 'evil' ---so even putting things into words is 'evil'(compared to the true oneness)

so everytime a human uses the iching they are using it for evil (except for me)

 

[candid]

"According to this, in the ninth month there will be misfortune."

D'oh! I meant eighth month.

 

[dobro p]

"So perhaps we really do already exist on that side. Or maybe there actually are Spirit Guides. Maybe Yi is an overworked, underpaid Dude in the sky. I?m betting on the first."

I'm betting on the first two. But when I use the Yi, I think it's reflecting my own inbuilt wisdom, or a wisdom that I can claim as my own if I'm aware enough, smart enough, lucky enough.

The other intelligences are there, I'm convinced.

But do they affect the outcomes of our Yi consultations to help us? Do angel wings flutter around the spinning coins in the air to make sure they land in a way which will stimulate our evolution? Mmmmm...maybe. I dunno. But if that *is* the case, then I doubt the angels would be present in the case of a person with an evil intention who consulted the Yi.

 

[martin]

"If there?s one lesson the Yi has repeatedly taught me, it?s this: I take myself and this life, in general, WAY too seriously"

Yesssss. And to quote Mrs Slocombe from "Are you being served?":
I am unanimous in that!

 

[martin]

Supposed that there are indeed other intelligences involved (I think so) then the next question is who they are. We speak of THE sage, but the ones that communicate with me through an oracle are not necessarily the same as the ones that communicate with you. What do you think?

As to evil, my experience with whoever they are that live on "the other side" has convinced me that they are definitely not neutral.
In general, they will not help you to reach a goal that involves hurting others. Unless you want to kill a Hitler maybe. They may help you in other ways though, for instance by guiding you through certain experiences that have a healing effect on you.
As I wrote earlier, they will give you what you need, not what you want. Or what you think you want. Because what you really want is what you need.

 

[candid]

I don't deny other intelligences or entities. That would be the ultimate egotism on my part. Certainly those who have traveled this road before me exist in one form or another. Nor do I believe 'they' converge into one lump of collective consciousness. I believe they, as we, retain the essence of our individual nature after crossing over the great divide. One thing I do believe is certain, whoever or whatever it/he/she/they are that constitutes the Yi entity, tirelessness must certainly be an attribute they possess. A true embodiment of Chien.

Another curious extension of this is, what of other oracles? Does each oracle have its own spirit or master, or does the same ?Sage? speak through them all?

Whatever the answers are to these things, I still believe that the real self ?over there? is the primary mediator of oracles and provider of insight, and that the highest good we can attain here is to be in one accord with that part of ourselves, which is 25.

 

[grndultimte]

I often wonder WHO is speaking to me when I consult the Yi??? Before I cast, I usually ask for guidance from the Wu Chi, the spirits of my family members who have passed on, and the spirits of all the martial artists who have passed on (just my own personal thing).

I try to honor the above with a prayer. But this is interesting, how do we really know if we're getting "good" spirits answering us, or "evil" spirits? I don't know? My brain hurts

grnd

 

[martin]

Must be your skull Grnd, as far as I know the brain cannot hurt.

But seriously - and not too seriously - I have never seen or met an evil spirit. I suspect they don't exist.
I sometimes bump into what appear to be strong inner magnetic fields, though. It's possible that such fields come across as 'evil' to some people.
I don't think they are, although they occasionally can be a pain in the <substitute part of body that CAN hurt>.

 

[kevin]

Maybe we should have a thread on the subject of Evil?

It seems such a Christian construct to me... Foreign to the Yi.

I have seen spirits who feed off people's psyches and those who like to trick...

I have worked with them...

I was reading this just now - hope it does not cause affront - seems appropo.

From Lin Yutang, Chuang Tzu

SEVENTEEN - AUTUMN FLOODS

"THE TIME OF THE AUTUMN FLOODS came and the hundred streams poured into the Yellow River. Its racing current swelled to such proportions that, looking from bank to bank or island to island, it was impossible to distinguish a horse from a cow. Then the Lord of the River1 was beside himself with joy, believing that all the beauty in the world belonged to him alone. Following the current, he journeyed east until at last he reached the North Sea. Looking east, he could see no end to the water.

The Lord of the River began to wag his head and roll his eyes. Peering far off in the direction of Jo,2 he sighed and said, "The common saying has it, `He has heard the Way a mere hundred times but he thinks he's better than anyone else.' It applies to me. In the past, I heard men belittling the learning of Confucius and making light of the righteousness of Po Yi,3 though I never believed them. Now, however, I have seen your unfathomable vastness. If I hadn't come to your gate,4 I would have been in danger. I would forever have been laughed at by the masters of the Great Method!"

Jo of the North Sea said, "You can't discuss the ocean with a well frog &#8209; he's limited by the space he lives in. You can't discuss ice with a summer insect &#8209; he's bound to a single season. You can't discuss the Way with a cramped scholar &#8209; he's shackled by his doctrines. Now you have come out beyond your banks and borders and have seen the great sea &#8209; so you realize your own pettiness. From now on it will be possible to talk to you about the Great Principle."

It sort of makes a point for us?... though I would that it were more gentle.

--Kevin

 

[jte]

Yes, one can turn corners in life generally, and in study of the Yi, too, I think there are points where you really can't "go back" to not knowing what it revealed.

And it is an expansion of your horizons and a joyous one, but it's a kind of burden, too. Like knowing a secret you really can't share, because (most) others simply don't see it and thus would never believe you. So, sometimes I feel a kind of odd nostalgia for my lost ignorance. (But at the same time I feel priveledged and joyous - it was definitely worth it!)

Anyhow, on another sub-thread above:

Me to the Yi, some time ago:

So is it just one spiritual being or more than one?

Yi: 7, unchanging

Was food for thought for me...

- Jeff

 

[pagan]

I think the question of different oracles-different guides is interesting. I do feel a difference between the IChing guide and the tarot guide. I don't feel any guide in astrology, only my own learning. But sometimes I ask the ICHING what a certain configuration of cards in tarot means and I am always blown away by the answer.

But I agree with the post about the Christian notion of evil. It doesn't seem to be present in the ICHING at all. But the ICHING does have a sense of right and wrong, and it mostly has to do with one's self respect and honor and the productive or beneficial ends of any action.

Mostly I feel the ICHING telling me to wait, don't act, restrain myself. What it has taught me is the point that life works if I don't interfere. When I get a horrendous auspice, I just detach and wait, and it always turns out okay, even if it wasn't what I wanted.
P.

 

[candid]

Jeff, 7 is food for thought here too. The commoners rising up as a fighting force. The inspiring general in the center. And when the mission is accomplished, each returning to their place. It gives me an image of energies drawn together for a purpose and then returning again. Interesting image of Yi, 7. Thanks.

Pagan, is it hard to imagine that this "detach and wait" is what your purest self would advise? This is what makes me reticent to the Guide idea. It seems that no guide is necessary when we simply listen to our established [in heaven] self. I could be wrong, of course, but that's how it seems to me. Isn?t that what 61 is really all about? 61 doesn?t speak of the external influence but of truth contained within our seed. It seems reasonable, then, to perceive that this is where the oracle speaks from.

32 also gives an example of containment of the entire process. It is self-perpetuating and self-renewing. As is wind over thunder, the image of 42. And doesn't 48 speak of our inner well? Now that I think of it, doesn't every hexagram refer to our own inner process? Why would Yi speak so much of this if Yi itself wasn't also contained within?

 

[candid]

Jeff, you may get a kick out of this. After posting my last comment, I asked Yi, "Ok, so are you contained within?" 7.2,3,4-62. Advancing, then retreating, not carrying what is dead, reaping the benefit. 62 - applying to the small and practical those things gained.

 

[jerryd]

It appears the conscenses here is if you are the type who wish to use the Yi for acessing what will happen if you wish to do evil you can get a result. If you think the result will help in you quest for evil, then it is all left up yo how you interpert, isn't it. So what conclusion can we make from the initial Question?

Does I Ching Help You Do Evil?

 

[dobro p]

Skillful use of Yi will enhance a person's ability to carry out evil if that's what they want to do. Just as skillful use of *any* instrument will enhance a person's abilities, whether those abilities are exercised in the service of good, or evil.

It's like asking: does an airplane help you do evil? Well, in the hands of a bad guy...yeah.