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Does the IChing sometimes quite delibrately mislead - for a Higher purpose???

timmy

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My experience is that the IChing can sometimes work in strange ways when using it as an oracle. I used it for a relationship issue with regards an ex girlfriend: "If I blah blah blah what will be the outcome." Over a period of two weeks the IChing kept giving me extremely favourable outcomes to my question. So I went ahead and did what I did (I thought it was the right thing to do) and the outcome was horrific, I suffered a lot. The IChing had been wrong. But here's the thing, maybe it wasn't so wrong. Because although I felt decieved by the IChing the (seemingly) bad outcome was what I needed to re-experience something and heal. Healing = freedom. If the Iching had told me in the first place that the outcome would have been 'bad' I doubt I would have done what I did, so in a way it encouraged me under false pretenses for my higher good. Reminds me of a true story of a therapist who did an Iching for a clinet. The therapist read out the line in the hexagram, all about how the client had had a wonderful father, the client then burst into tears becasue turned out she had had an extremely abusive father, and due to this breakthrough (client breaking down and telling the therapist this for the first time the therapy was able to begin.
So what do you think? Do you think the Iching sometimes misleads us but with good intent? Hmmmm.
 

heylise

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I think it is very well possible.
In a smaller way the same happened often to me. Full of despair about an awful situation, and then Yi said something which made me burst out in laughter, and often about myself. Exactly what I needed.
About the situation the answer was totally wrong, but for me it could not have been better.
 

timmy

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Thanks Heylise,
I think so, I'm not sure, but I think so.
I feel so utterly released as a result of the IChing encouraging me (via favourable answers) to do something that devasted me. But the devastation lasted only for a very short time and now I feel deeply peaceful and released from a burden that I had carried for years. Had I not been (mis)guided by the IChing, I doubt I would have done what I was 'meant' to do - for my higher growth/freedom.
IF the IChing does occasionally deliberately mislead for our ultimate good then it is a very clever IChing!
 

peter2610

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Hi Timmy,

Timmy said:
Over a period of two weeks the IChing kept giving me extremely favourable outcomes to my question.

Can you recall any of the actual readings you received on this?

Peter
 

timmy

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Hi Peter,

Yes, I can remember some of them because they came up so often, they were:

Hex 19, lines 1, 2, 4, 6

Hex 22, lines 3, 4

Hex 55, lines 1, 5

:bows:
 

justin farrell

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Hi Timmy

Since using the I Ching I have been struck by how similar its methods of answering questions are to that of a person with advanced experience of the spiritual path - someone who in the East would have been referred to as a master.

From what I have seen of the I Ching so far, I have noticed that the oracle may not always provide a direct answer to my question. It may instead provide a direction to an area of experience where I can learn the answer myself. So from this perspective, what seems like a misleading answer - either from an oracle or a master - could in fact be a method for empowering people to advance along the path themselves.

Best regards
Justin

I Ching Reading Journal (Software)
 

timmy

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Thank you Justin,
I think so too.
I also think it's rare that the IChing behaves in this way but just sometimes I think it does. Because people don't really put themselves in a situation that they know in advance will devastate them but sometimes that's what it takes to set us free, namely the reEXPERIENCING something (like you said), the being temporarily covered in ghosts and filled with dread and shock. That is experienced on such a deep cellular level that part of the healing is in the re-experiencing if you like. Because the healing (if that's what we choose to do) is in the experiencing not the reading about it or imagining it.
Thank you for your very interesting reply.
 
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rosada

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Einstein once famously said, "God does not play dice with the Universe," but I have come to think sometimes He plays pool...

Yes, I do think sometimes the I Ching will send you off in a totally backwards direction but then.. events rikoshay about and kerplop you end up right where you should be.

I once asked the I Ching should I and how could I forgive someone I was having a tough time with. Unfortunately I don't remember the response but it was something along the lines of "Hate the scoundrel!" I was of course surprised but also delighted as the advise gave me permission to do exactly what I felt but had resisted, thinking it was inappropriate. Well, I got into a total fuming rant but I couldn't keep it up for long because the more I thought about my point of view I also found myself seeing things from his point of view! Ultimately I came to see the full picture and was able to easily forgive and move on.

Very clever Master Yi:bows:
rosada
 

timmy

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Thank you Rosada.
And I like Einstein's quote, and what you said about the fact that maybe sometimes God plays pool!
 
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ogalkin

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Timmy,

I think it's useful to consult I Ching about some questions, but I think we should use our own head after all. I think I Ching Oracle can be a great help for your intuition, but I don't think that I Ching Divination should be perceived literally.

"A person is successful when he tries to be in harmony with laws of earth and heaven" and I Ching can only give you a hint about how to achieve such harmony.
 

mary f

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Does the IChing sometimes quite delibrately mislead - for a Higher purpose???

I wouldn't say mislead but sometimes the Yi may point facts that might be in a higher level of importance in that scenario instead of answering specifically to what you're asking. I doubt the Yi would ever mislead us.
 

Liselle

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I've had this happen many times, and I even posted at least one quite rant-y thread about it here (some years ago, and for which I apologize to all who may see them :bag:), I still can't say I understand why Yi does it, although this thread gives something else to consider!

My quintessential example was about my neighbor's cat, who had a hyperthyroid condition, and got lost from home for quite a while. I asked Yi about the situation and got 30.4 ("Sudden, Comes, Burns, Dies, Thrown out.")

Long story short, the cat was eventually found, returned home, and was fine. And I learned that one meaning of 30.4 is "an overreaction" (I was overreacting to the situation, I suppose.) However, 30.4 also happens to perfectly describe dying from one's untreated hyperthyroid condition, which of course is what I thought it meant.

I'm still trying to find the humor in this!
 

rosada

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It reads as if the I Ching had perfectly reflected your mental state - you yourself believed the cat was a goner when you consulted the IC, correct? - but it did not reveal the true state of affairs. Perhaps we need to become better diviners as the I Ching really is meant to give us the straight story:

"The future develops in accordance with the fixed laws, according to calculable numbers. If these numbers are known, future events can be calculated with perfect certainty. This is the thought on which the Book of Changes is based."
Wilhelm

Perhaps this is why so often consulting an oracle is combined with some sort of ritual - fasting, prayers, burning of insense - something to quiet the surface mind so the oracle will resonnate with something deeper.
Rosada
 
S

sooo

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Do you think the Iching sometimes misleads us but with good intent? Hmmmm.

Yes.

I view that as a way a master might deliberately confuse a follower who is attempting to follow too closely or too literally, or obeying or imitating mindlessly. Sometimes the master fools the fool into thinking for himself by sending him on a wild fool chase by chasing after the master.
 
S

sooo

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or..

I think the fool's most common mistake is thinking the master has an opinion. Finding none, they make themselves crazy, and blame the master.
 
S

sooo

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I've had this happen many times, and I even posted at least one quite rant-y thread about it here (some years ago, and for which I apologize to all who may see them :bag:), I still can't say I understand why Yi does it, although this thread gives something else to consider!

My quintessential example was about my neighbor's cat, who had a hyperthyroid condition, and got lost from home for quite a while. I asked Yi about the situation and got 30.4 ("Sudden, Comes, Burns, Dies, Thrown out.")

Long story short, the cat was eventually found, returned home, and was fine. And I learned that one meaning of 30.4 is "an overreaction" (I was overreacting to the situation, I suppose.) However, 30.4 also happens to perfectly describe dying from one's untreated hyperthyroid condition, which of course is what I thought it meant.

I'm still trying to find the humor in this!

Good layered story with two possible contrary meanings. Similar to a 26.1 recent post about losing my wallet.

Maybe the humor is that despite its potential double meaning, it was one reading. Maybe the Yi is hedging their bet. Nah, just kidding. Ya think?

Whether to apply an answer inwardly or outwardly makes huge grounds for a misinterpreted reading. Sometimes both, inward and outward, but not always. Sometimes it's clearly one and one only. But even there, we are given insight as to dealing with it, or just understanding it.. and that is inward business.
 

Liselle

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Thanks, Rosada and Sooo, for responding to this. I'm still hoping someday I understand it, but I'm not holding my breath.

Sooo, do you mean this thread? About the missing money? Was it 26.1 or 26 unchanging?

Lisa
 
S

sooo

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Yup. "Danger is at hand" about a question about danger, is a little unnerving. But the danger was in worrying and having a proactive stance in the first place. Or as Bradford says, as I recall, this will get harsh. Well the guy's playing actually was loud and harsh, but I don't think that was the meaning either, though it's funny to think of it as being inclusive.
 

Liselle

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Oh, wait, I see. The thread was about a 26 unchanging reading, your post was about a 26.1 reading.

And I must say I don't think that was fair of Yi, at all. Common sense would dictate some paranoia in such a situation, and the "horror stories" are facts. You did that reading in good faith, in other words. (And so did I, about the cat - the difference is that I personally was in no danger whatsoever.)

Would you mind telling us, as closely as possible, what your question was?

Lisa
 
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sooo

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The question was general, "about this visitor and sale?" There was quite a lot going on that day and I was doing a bit of rushing around. Being aware of danger of letting strangers come inside, and the stories of more than one showing up and then either stealing your musical gear or coming back at another time and robbing all of it, are pretty plentiful, so I was preparing myself for these possibilities. But it wasn't necessary, the guy was honest and harmless (except for his playing, but that's another story).

Though a double meaning can be read into line 1, decades of receiving this line has always wound up to refer to the danger of getting all worked up for nothing. This time was no different, and I should have trusted that. However, just the words and text were ominous enough to even more put me on guard, which is what led to the lost wallet dilemma, which was only a dilemma because I failed to heed its message.

As far as fair, Yi was fair, because I knew what the line had always meant before. Danger is at hand because of the nature of 26 - taming those big emotions or urges to excerpt some kind of unneeded defensive power.

Still, determining whether danger and power is self generated or comes from an outside source is always tricky business. Being prepared mentally and physically is always a good idea, and in fact that's why the top drawer is where I'd usually never place my wallet for such a defensive reason. It's tactically poor planning for a few reasons, which I'd rather not go into here. Point is, I should have trusted what I'd already learned about 26, and line 1 particularly.
 
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sooo

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I should add, this wasn't a case of Yi tricking me but of tricking myself.

However, I do think Yi can and does do what I'd mentioned earlier, about teaching a fool to be self reliant, and not following too closely or being literally obedient, rather than being mindful.
 

Liselle

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So just to make sure I understand this...the words of 26.1 mean "danger of getting worked up for nothing" (rather than real danger) because they're in the hexagram of "Taming Great Beasts" (emotions, urges)? And if the same words were (hypothetically) the text of some other hexagram's line, it would more likely mean actual external danger?

If I'm understanding that correctly, that's a great help, Sooo *lightbulb smilie, if there was one*
Thank you.

If you don't mind, what hexagram could you have gotten to make your fear more justifiable - actual external danger more likely? Hexagram 10? 23? 29? Something else?
 
S

sooo

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Yup, pretty much is how I see it.

Good question on what might signal real danger. Off the top of my head, certainly 29, I've also found 43.2 to be very practical advice for dealing with real danger. It, even by itself, constitutes the basis for all manner of preparedness and self defense. Certainly 34 and its lines serve to alert to a misuse of power; here we're faced with whose power does it refer to? Mindfulness and readiness are what's needed. Part of mindfulness is being aware of surroundings, and readiness is rising and lowering defense (da-fence) according only to the level of actual danger. 26.1, at least based on my observation, is poor mindfulness and premature readiness.
 
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sooo

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I was just checking out Bradford's 43.2, and it's quite different from my view and experience. But I don't disagree with what he says, if or when someone takes preparedness to extreme.

Calling out isn't calling out to nothing or to the night, it's calling out to those who are available to help. That can include defensive arts instructors, as well as calling upon ones own clarity and strength. I don't think we really disagree, as Bradford includes the text: "Find the middle path."

Still, I think Wilhelm 'dimes it' with his commentary:

Readiness is everything. Resolution is indissolubly bound up with caution. If an individual is careful and keeps his wits about him, he need not become excited or alarmed. If he's watchful at all times, even before danger is present, he's armed when danger approaches and need not be afraid. The superior man is on his guard against what's not yet in sight and on the alert for what's not yet within hearing; therefore he dwells in the midst of difficulties as though they didn't exist. If a man develops his character, people submit to him of their own accord. If reason triumphs, the passions withdraw of themselves. To be circumspect and not to forget one's Armour is the right way to security.
 

Liselle

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I see what you mean about 43.2 - I think one interpretation says you're wasting your energy in vigilance whether or not there's real danger (leaning towards there is none); the other says to be vigilant and on guard, and you'll be able to head the danger off before it hurts you. There's some commonality there, and yet I'm left feeling like they're very different advice in the moment of a real situation.

What do you think the proper response would have been if you'd gotten 43.2 about your visitor and sale?
 
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sooo

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I would feel justified and be prepared to stand up for myself, but mindfully. That's not to be confused with what someone might call politely. That could mean saying, not saying, doing or not doing something which meets with disapproval and aggression. These are choices we make, and we do spontaneously whatever we practice doing. Which makes a discipline beneficial.
 

zyphir

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It is personal..

The author of "The Oracle Of Love" which is yet another cool interpretation of the classic texts says that the Oracle is "not" all knowing. My experiences have been anything but that, with the Oracle giving me advice and direction regarding relationships way ahead of anything that I could have foreseen. Yes, I think the Yi can be a bit of a trickster at times.

Usually when I am about to really get into some kind of relationship situation that is going to cause me emotional harm, the I Ching is very direct with me. A while back I was given a clear warning to stay away from a evolving relationship, but I went ahead and pursued it anyway (putting my own spin on the divination), because I "wanted" it. Needless to say, when it did in fact go south, I did pay quite a bit in emotional coin-lesson learned. The I Ching has always had my best interest at heart, whether I choose to follow as everyone knows is my own business. What a great forum, with really cool people this is.
:cool:
 
N

nAstWr

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wow I didn't expect to read this. Is it really happening? because I have had auspicious answers about my personal life and now yi insists to show me that there is no hope for any improvement :(
 

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