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Dragons symbolise the unfolding of heavenly order and movement... they express the infinite geometry of chaos as they fly across the sky as clouds and plunge into the earth and rivers as water or then return to the heavens from the depths of Earth as evaporation. Their movement is imbued with effortless elan no matter where they traverse. A bit like Hildegaard of Bingen's feather on the breath of god. For all that I wonder if it's easier to see a dragon in the unfolding movement of a cloud or a river as it responds to the landscape than it is to be inspired to see a dragon in a relatively humanly scaled creature like an alligator that is occasionally, spasmodically explosive and also very gravity bound in it's movement and nature.
Also alligators do seem to me much more creatures of instinct and emotion and possibly more a familiar to the ways of the underworld than they are to the order of the heavens even though the Egyptians and Mayans both gave alligators to creation and the sun in their mythology.
I do wonder if we see manifestation of the unconscious being inspired by the literal here and so therefore an alligator gives birth to the tale of a dragon or instead rather we are just reminded in part of the absolute precepts of the universal patterns that we all carry in our unconsciousness in the varied forms we encounter in our reality.
Just as the water trigram can also be quite literal but is even more perfect as a representation of the form of water as the shape of the infinite geometry of nature and how dragons express that as water in the sky as clouds and water on the earth as rivers. So maybe we can't see the dragon but we certainly can feel them and see where they have been.
Hi, Boyler:... besides the Dragon as an spiritual/divine animal (representing east, wood, spring, and all scaly creatures) and/or metaphor, ancient Chinese knew about a dragon as a real animal (in fact they differentiated several kind of dragons) and clearly distinguished it from alligators, snakes, and/or water lizards, but 3000 years ago they were already rare ... the dragon that is most usually referred in some ancient text is a horned one, called (龍) ...
Do you mean that dragons were real animals already rare in early China? Or that ancient chinese had clear that alligators, snakes or lizars were not Dragons?
I believe that fancy creations don't start from nothing and if the human mind can conceive a marriage between a two legged cow and a two legged horse (1) why not ancient chinese might conceive four legged snakes, or horned flying alligators?
I CJKV dictionary there are more than 50 or 60 kinds of dragons. I remember only a few:
伏龍 fu long, Hidden Dragon: a worthy person that passes unnoticed, a sage retired from the world.
潛龍 qian long, Concealesd Dragon: a useless, wasted talent.
蒼龍 cang long, Azure Dragon, the chinese Dragon Constellations.
龍子 long zi, Descendant of Emperor.
龍女 long nü, Dragon Lady, a good, worthy or wise woman. Maybe not without sex appeal.
蛟龍 jiao long: River Dragon thar rule over rain and floods.
Maybe some of them were real persons, like Dragon Lady. (2)
Deep in our subconscious are archetypes, which want to be expressed. Every age finds its own images. Some simply happen in someone’s mind, and when they are universal enough, a culture will pick it up. Other archetypes get “recognized” in everyday things. A stone which represents the soul, a butterfly is suddenly a message from someone who died, a dog as the ‘helper’-image. Even movie stars – Marilyn Monroe fills in the archetype of ‘Woman as innocent seductress’ or something like that.I do wonder if we see manifestation of the unconscious being inspired by the literal here and so therefore an alligator gives birth to the tale of a dragon or instead rather we are just reminded in part of the absolute precepts of the universal patterns that we all carry in our unconsciousness in the varied forms we encounter in our reality.
I think the images of water, which moves like a serpent, coiling, and of the clouds and storms which often do the same, and of snakes and alligators, they are all together a big set of images which fill in what already lives deep in human minds. Or maybe rather deep in our instincts. They connect us with an archetype. The dragon represents that archetype, and of course it is BIG, like all archetypes are big. Bigger than alligators or snakes and even rivers. Dreaming connects us with those images.Interestingly I had the fantastic experience of being walked through an Australian landscape by a traditional elder from our culture who identified the serpent that was woven into the river from the dreaming. A brilliant overlap in understanding.
Hi, LiSe:How's that for hex.1 bottom line! Makes for a long time of not acting.
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| Nile crocodiles are exceptionally good at holding their breath and can, when sitting at rest underwater, hold their breath for up to two hours.
I know, the Nile is far from China, but alligators and crocodiles are quite similar animals and probably have many traits in common.
Like Hilary mentions (#2), in David W. Pnkeniers "Astrology and Cosmology in Early China", I've attached a pdf about this alligator. The article: HERE
Thanks for sharing. I very much liked this, from his conclusion:David W. Pnkeniers "Astrology and Cosmology in Early China"
What counts as a dragon? If a Chinese dragon has no wings and doesn’t breathe fire, is it the same kind of creature as the western dragon or do we just use the same terminology? I must admit I watched an episode of ‘ancient aliens’ (dreadful show, not because of the basic premise but because of the ridiculous leaps of logic and non-sequiturs) which was discussing the African dogon people and their understanding of cosmology which connects to amphibious beings (who may or may not be from space, I’ve only read about it in The Sirius Mystery = another less than scholarly interrogation, although I have yet to read The Pale Fox which promises to be a bit more sensible) - ANYWAY, the relevant episode of Ancient Aliens connected dogon cosmology and the amphibious wise ones to various other world cosmologies and also connected to the word ‘dragon’.
I was drawn to this thread because I yesterday asked the Yi what other kind of life existed in this universe. 1.4.5>18. The image in my head? A dragon coming from the watery depths and up into the air. Less literally - pure creative potential?
(I can’t work out how to quote sections rather than whole thing )I can personally recommend Sitchin. This is good start:
Twelfth Plan: Book I of the Earth Chronicles (Earth Chronicles, 1): Sitchin, Zecharia: 9780061379130: BooksBuy Twelfth Plan: Book I of the Earth Chronicles (Earth Chronicles, 1) on Amazon.com ✓ FREE SHIPPING on qualified orderswww.amazon.com
After he passed away all sorts of shady people started explaining the mistakes he made in translation or the problem they had with different things he stated... No one ever addressing that through the years while he was alive he had provided very difficult to ignore evidence for his base point of view even without bringing Harington in.
Anyway, what counts as Dragon... My Chinese is still on its very first steps, but looking around I would guess we consider dragon this - 龍, with some backup of this 龙.
What does that mean... Chinse Bazi masters I have watched, say its just this:
And to be fair the 12 earthly branches all have Images of existing animal, Horse, Snake, Rat etc. So I'm kinda leaning in more to some explanation like that. Not as much for alligators, but for some sort of big lizard that may still exist today like the komodo dragons(I don't know the species name in English, I know it in may language).
I do agree looking at ancient history there is alot that may bring us to look in unexpected places for an answer, sometimes, but in this case I think the answer may actually be very trivial and lizardy in existing way.
Two ways: you can either just select the section you want to quote and then a 'quote' option should pop up; click it, then go to a new post, then select 'insert quotes' (which is what I did here). Or, you can just quote the entire thing and then go in and edit it - delete, change ....(I can’t work out how to quote sections rather than whole thing
Are you recommending this book because it's about ancient civilization and aliens, or because we might learn something about dragons from it? Or both?I can personally recommend Sitchin. This is good start: Twelfth Planet: Book I of the Earth Chronicles
It seems you've offered up some very good possibilities here:What counts as a dragon?
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