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dobro p

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There's this thing that happens all the time on this board. Somebody consults the Yi and asks for interpretations here. Often I'm amazed at the fact that the person has to ask in the first place - the meaning seems so obvious to me. Okay, dobro, be charitable - the Yi's famous for appearing obscure, especially to newbies.

But then when people chip in with their takes on the divination, it's really common for the querent to more or less completely ignore what's being said. So many times it's a case of 'people hear what they want to hear, so you're wasting your time telling them what's really there'.

You know, I've seen this so many times here: somebody will ask a question here, have the question answered, and then instead of acting on the information they get, they ignore it and ask *another* question and ask us what it means. Damn! Things are not what they appear. When some people ask for help in understanding the Yi, they don't *really* want to understand it.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Dobro
You forgot to mention that these folks never ever say how it all worked out either.
To me, comparing notes to become more clear and proficient is the whole point of this forum.
 

kts

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Although I don't often bring things to this forum, I'm guilty of this in my own I Ching consultations. I'll ask a question and only partially digest the answer before I've asked another one. Applying the answer to the actual situation is the hardest part for me. Identifying what the various lines might refer to is where the real work is - sometimes it appears to be obvious ('appears to be')- sometimes it's as obscure as it can be. It does take quite a bit of 'brain engagement'.
I did bring a question to this forum about a missing book some time ago, with which some people were very helpful. Unfortunately, there has been no result (yet) in that particular case.
I think people are generally better off with one or two suggestions. When a question sparks off a whole debate, they can be swamped in possibilities.
 
C

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Perhaps it?s a good thing to experience our efforts being taken for granted as diviners by others. Or maybe it?s just karmic payback for the times when we have likewise not considered Yi?s answers well before throwing another question at the Yi. At any rate, receiving gratitude, while feeling nice to receive, isn?t a good reason to help others with their readings, although as Brad points out, feedback on our interpretations is helpful to everyone. It would be nice to receive more of that, if only to help understand how these interpretations play out in real life. I think a few here have been really good about that, while most are not.

Personally, I don?t believe it falls to a diviner to determine how many questions are too many or not enough. Some people have a greater capacity for absorbing and processing answers than others. Some are also more curious or ambitious than others. We don?t limit how many steps a toddler may take before they learn to walk on their own, we just encourage them to keep trying.
 

dobro p

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Candid, I'm not wishing I received more expressions of gratitude - that's not why I offer interpretations here. And although Brad's desire for more feedback about outcomes is really legitimate, I'm not complaining about the lack of that either.

What I'm complaining about is stupidity. It's like someone asks you: "Excuse me, can you tell me what the time is, please? I've got an appointment at three." and you say: "It's quarter to three."

And then they sigh heavily like someone who didn't get an answer to their question, or like someone who didn't get the answer they wanted.

Then they talk about difficulties in their life for a while and then say: "Uh, can you tell me what the time is now please? I've got an appointment at three."

Well, maybe you're inclined to treat them like a toddler just learning to walk. So maybe you say: "It's ten to three." If that's what you want to do, that's okay.

As for me, I'm more inclined to head for the bar and say to my mates: "Hey, I just had this dumb conversation..."
 
C

candid

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Dobro, I don?t know, but when I consider how obstinate I?ve been with Yi, in some of the ways which you?ve mentioned, guess I feel it?s my duty to stretch my patience and tolerance a bit more than I might otherwise. But I do hear what you?re saying.
 

bradford_h

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Dobro
The printing press is the problem.
The Yi was written to help competent diviners advise kings and nobles in important matters; diviners who could lose a lot if they were wrong. It was also written to help the young nobility (Jun Zi) learn about a life of great responsibility.
It was never written for or meant to be used by the Xiao Ren, the common people, or anonymous types. It should not be a wonder that they are in over their heads.
 
C

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This is getting interesting. Brad?s probably right. He certainly knows more than me about Yi?s original intended use. Yet the points I?ve made are heartfelt.

So I asked the Yi: Is Brad right concerning Yi?s purpose for today? 5.1,3 to 29.

I?ve not pondered it?s meaning yet, choosing to post it here first without bias.

Any thoughts?
 

RindaR

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Hi all, I'm popping up momentarily from lurk-mode. I wanted to say that there have been times of great stress for me that I've consulted Yi daily with multiple questions.

My attitude has been that of requesting needed extra help and support in maintaining my way, my attitude, my behavior in the face of some very tough times.

The Yi was very responsive and helpful, and when things began to get confusing or circular I'd know to slow down a bit. Time after time the answers were relevant and supportive, and most always related to one another except when a new influence entered the picture.

Rinda, who has been very happily busy with applications of Yi's lessons!
 

stuart

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Iteresting result i see it as preparing before you consult.Line three is the result of not knowing the depth of where you are heading.When the first line changes you get hex 48 line three moving,finally changing to 29.Line 3 hex 48 i see as prince and pauper alike are free to consult.ButI think it is sad that the common people are denied what treasures it has to offer.
 

heylise

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5 lines 1 and 3 might be the two types of people who consult.

Line 1 is about steps to take, a new attitude, a new view on a problem. So they wait in the field, in an open space where it is easy to walk, even run, and where you can see where you are heading. And maybe it is the field-altar: a place of culture, so they can find a greater answer than on their own.
Line 1 changes to 48, an answer will work as a well of inspiration or relief. And usually they are the kind who are easy to answer, because their question is inspiring.

Line 3 is about the heart, emotions. When people ask filled with emotions (and with that I mean the kind which obscures the mind), they ask without a real possibility to move according to the answer. Or to anything at all, they are stuck in the mud, and can do nothing but ask. And ask again. But nothing much will happen.
Line 3 changes to 60. They need to find borders, measure. Not an answer which will give them directions for what to do, but someone comforting them, telling them to calm down, to stay within their abilities and out of trouble (see 60.3, the fanyao). An answer which tells them NOT to do anything. And if possible again an answer, and again. Because they need quite a lot of reassurance to find a safe place for their heart, where the bandits cannot find them.

When both lines change, when both questions are answered, then this forum is a place where one can learn about the dangers of life. ?If we have truth and a considerate heart?, when we answer to both kinds of questions, then this place has the depth and wisdom of water. ?The noble one moves according to principles and virtue, he uses repeating to teach practice (or Wilhelm: carries on the business of teaching)?.

LiSe
 

bradford_h

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05.1 & 05.3 might also refer to the comparative seriousness of the situations in question. I.e., answering "it depends."
As long as trouble is some distance off, folks can just dabble as they will. But wallowing when times get more exigent could get dangerous, and even have positive consequences for our overall gene pool. You wouldn't want to trust in ignorance with bandits about.
In any event, I agree with LiSe that the Yi is offering a comparison here, and not a sequence of events with Kan as outcome (although Kan does point out the notion of exigency as the thing to finally consider).
 
C

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I think LiSe's interpretation is excellent and comprehensive.

Brad, I'm getting the sense from what you're saying that the Yi should be guarded in a shroud of secrecy, not allowing it to fall into the hands of those who might misuse it, possibly "bringing about the arrival of the enemy"?

"It depends" applies, I think, to several facets, including the personal natures of those who ask and those who answer. IE: if someone is by nature outgoing and open, then it's natural that their responsiveness to questions would be likewise. If someone is introverted and holds the Yi "purely" as a sacred vessel, then they're likely to guard its sacred secrets. I don't know if there?s a right or wrong answer here, but I agree with Jeff, LiSe and Brad, that lines 1 and 3 show two different categories of questions and questioners.

On another note, while the world may not hang from someone?s personal relationship [question], to that person at that time, it does. What seems irreverent and irrelevant to one may be paramount in importance and life-changing to someone else.
 

bradford_h

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That's funny Candid-
I'm saying it SHOULD be guarded in a shroud of secrecy?
I've been at this for 37 years in English and 9 in Chinese and it's still Mooey Mysterioso to me.
We hardly need to add our own secrets to this.
 

hilary

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With LiSe, all the way. I think 29 is where a lot of people ask questions from: the pits, holding on to their emotions as the only thing they know about. No idea why I'm writing that in the third person, either...
 
C

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Brad, I'm confused. Then why the concern over common mortals obtaining the secrets of the gods? Seems the gods are able to guard and reveal their own secrets at will.
 

sparhawk

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I think that what Bradford is saying is along the general lines of what Steve Marshall said in his journal. If you remember I started a thread in July about it: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/2380.html?1090944925

I also tend to agree with this view. For the most part we are hobbyist regarding the Yi, some more committed than others, but not much more than that.

I think that Dobro actually put the finger in the wound. People act as any energy field: they choose the path of least resistance, if they have a choice. That's why that, having a mean such as this, where you can ask a question and have several opinions in matter of minutes, people have only to learn to throw the coins and then ask: what is this I've got?

Well, I have a news flash: there are no shortcuts in learning the Yi. Ask and make your own mistakes, just like anybody else.

Luis
 
J

jeanystar

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Brad,
I think the Yi is such a friend to the common man....like a wise old soul who suffers fools very gladly..and with infinite patience.

BUt Dobro has a real point....ultimately one has to use the Yi by oneself and be with the answers.... even if they fail to seem to make sense at first. Asking for help with interpretations is okay, but the real learning comes over time when a personal relationship with the oracle is developed. Of course even then it will mystify, asking that one look deeper within...but very often it meets me on the level of my question, and the level of my understanding/confusion....kindly, with such benevolence, most esp when I am sincere and respectful.

And I loved what Lise said once about saying thank you to Yi..and getting the response to that. Just today I asked an impt question and got a very succinct and helpful answer. When I said thank you, the Yi said 52.1,6......which I felt was so sweet: Me, line 1, sufficiently answered and now advised to keep my feet still (not question anymore just now) and the Yi, line 6, like a buddha sitting serenely on the mountaintop, magnaminous and complete....always hiding its brightness, but never withholding help if it is really needed.
 

bradford_h

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Hi Candid-
Maybe the best illustration of secrets in the wrong hands is the US nuclear arsenal at the fingertips of men who can't even pronounce "nuclear." But then I picture Gully Foyle in The Stars My Destination, tossing all that Pyre into the hands of the common people.
I do believe that a mystery guards itself, and that initiations into them only serve lower purposes. I'm not worried about the Yi in the hands of the Xiao Ren. A diamond covered with drool is still a diamond. Time will sort it all out (5.1,3), and necessity will shake it all out when it needs to (29).
 

bradford_h

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Hi Candid-
I was only saying that it was over the Xiao Ren head, not that it should be witheld.
Maybe the best illustration of secrets in the wrong hands is the US nuclear arsenal at the fingertips of men who can't even pronounce "nuclear." But then I picture Gully Foyle in The Stars My Destination, tossing all that Pyre into the hands of the common people (all time greatest short Sci Fi book).
I do believe that a mystery guards itself, and that initiations into them only serve lower purposes. I'm not worried about the Yi in the hands of the Xiao Ren. A diamond covered with drool is still a diamond. Time will sort it all out (5.1,3), and necessity will shake it all out when it needs to (29).
 

dobro p

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Too many questions can muddy the water, right? Hex 4 says so (although that refers to a Hex 4 situation only).

But it amazes me how many people here who get a useful response to their question from the Yi, who get the best interpretations that people here know how to give, then virtually ignore all that and choose (consciously or unconsciously) not to take it on, choose not to apply it to their question and situation.

Idries Shah talks about people in the audience at his lectures who would ask questions, not because they really wanted to know the answer, but simply because they wanted the teacher's attention.

I think something similar often happens in this forum, although I think the motivation is often not just to get people's attention, but a whole variety of things. Well, a fairly simple variety, actually.

Or perhaps people *do* have the motivation to learn something about the non-evident features of the situation they're in, but their emotions get them so stirred up that they can't take on the lesson the Yi is offering them.
 

jte

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From the commentary on Hex 4:

"To strengthen what is right in a fool. That is a holy task."

- Jeff
 
C

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"the motivation to learn something about the non-evident features of the situation"

Dobro, thanks for hitting the nail! Wow! That is what I'd love to focus on with someone wanting an interpretation from me. How much more rewarding!

Less than an hour ago a friend of mine asked if I'd do a reading for her. She's a Christian, and her only exposure to Yi is through me, having done a reading for her once before. She was in a great physical and emotional pain, stricken with arthritis and bone degeneration. Her question was: How to best manage this pain and medications?

While our belief systems were different, she was receptive to what the Yi had to say, through my interpretation. She wasn't interested in how it works or where it came from. She didn't care how young or old Yi is. But she received from the well, nonetheless. I believe if Yi has a mind, spirit or soul of its own, it didn't mind that at all. The deeper implications of non-evident features of the situation will become realized gradually in time.

I realize this is on a bit different track than you were running on. Your points are well received here. Same for all the input on this thread.
 

sparhawk

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Candid,

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

While our belief systems were different, she was receptive to what the Yi had to say, through my interpretation. She wasn't interested in how it works or where it came from. She didn't care how young or old Yi is. But she received from the well, nonetheless.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Exactly!! I believe she did the right thing in asking you for a reading. That's the way it should be. As it is of any person that comes to Hilary for a reading, for example. They are not seeking to learn the Yi; they want an answer. The same way an Emperor of yore would use a court diviner.

The issue that Dobro brought here, if I interpret his intention correctly, is about the people who is stuck midway in their learning of the oracle and still argue and/or ignore the advise of those they seek advise from in the first place. If the intention of such people is to debate how to interpret a certain reading in the spirit of learning, then that's fine. We are all in the same learning boat thus far. But, on the other hand, if you learn how to draw an hexagram and then you are clueless, post it on the forum for an interpretation and then argue with those that try to interpret it for them or just ignore and walk away from what they are being told, I consider that not only foolish but disrespectful and inconsiderate. If somebody wants a reading, ask for it. That, for me, is a more natural flow of events. If somebody is learning the Yi--key word here is "learning"-- do that and debate interpretations among peers to your heart's content, but, do not ask for personal readings from others where you will argue others' takes and end up taking home your own interpretation, the one you brought with you in the first place. If somebody is going to do that they don't need anybody else to do a reading for them. Don't waste other people's time.

Luis
 

hilary

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Every once in a while, the way a diviner applies or interprets someone's reading will be just the stimulus that querent needs to realise how much they trust their own intuition - just because the diviner said something completely different, and yet they weren't convinced. If you're the diviner in question, this is not comfortable.


Yes, of course, sometimes people ask for readings when they're not ready to hear the answer - I mean, only ready to hear one answer. Especially when the answer they get is 'go do something.'

'People'? Here I go again.
 
C

candid

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Luis, this is a bit humorous because that?s not how I interpreted Dobro?s points. I hear him speaking of those who are mindless in there approach, and just keeps pouring on the questions, without considering the initial base answers already provided. The picture you?ve presented seems to be that of the intermediate who is merely seeking affirmation of his/her own conclusions, unwilling to hear or consider new input.

Hilary, who is this person you keep speaking of? It reminds me of the Beatles song, Nowhere Man. He?s as blind as he can be. Just sees what he wants to see. Isn?t he a bit like you and me?
 

sparhawk

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<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

I hear him speaking of those who are mindless in there approach, and just keeps pouring on the questions, without considering the initial base answers already provided.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

Alas, you are correct! Maybe what I pointed out was in the back of my mind waiting to jump out. What I quoted from you gave me the opening (unconsciously, perhaps). Funny how words said with a particular intention can be used for another...


Luis
 

hilary

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Ah, the Person. Very familiar, I agree - I'm sure I know her from somewhere.
 

kts

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I agree with Luis's point (some contributions back) that it is easy to be 'hobbyist' about the I Ching (or to be a nominal member of a religion, for that matter). The point is, what do you believe is the reality behind the answers you're being given? Do you take them seriously or not?

(Wondered if I had anything to contribute the ongoing discussion, which I only have opportunity to dip into at odd times, and got the answer #60 (1,2) > #8, so I hope my few comments are worth something).
 

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