First posting..

[lloyd]

Yes, and the first answer was as much about you being shy (or whatever) as it was about X.
Meanwhile, in the end I mostly wanted to show that there is more text to be read in the answer of an unchanging hexagram than:
Enthusiasm. It furthers one to install helpers and to set armies marching.
For my readings I mostly use the Lynn translation, in combination with Sherrill's astrological comments.

 

[sunrise65]

Thanks for all the advice lloyd. I will draw a line now and go and try and shoot the bow! See what happens..

t.

 

[lloyd]

Cool.
And what goes for I Ching goes for astrology; they never block, but help our understanding of bulls.

 

[sunrise65]

Yes tis true.. And in this case I mustn't be a bull in a china shop!!

 

[ginnie]

Sharing

Are you saying that the way you experience one hexagram is the way everyone experiences it?

When I received H16 unchanging earlier this year, people posted and helped me out with it. I am very grateful that they were willing to share their thoughts with me. At this website we are all encouraged to share about lines and hexagrams. Being able to share like this is one great thing about being a member at OnlineClarity.

It seems to me that all we can actually share is our thoughts. I cannot share my actual experiences, and I don't understand how I could know how someone else experiences something. Sounds like one of those philosophical discussions . . .

 

[jesed]

IMO, if Tom were a little more ready and did not have doubts, I think he would have gotten at least one moving line.

No philosophical discussions. A real and concrete life/experience..Tom's experience.

See... you are sure that hex 16 means to Tom that nothing will be achieved. Some others (Meng, Lloyd, myself) think diferent. Not that hex 16 means tha something will be achieved, but only that means he is under excitment.. and excitment can be both bad or good, depending on the level of self awareness.

When Lloyd encouraged Tom to take a shot, you discourage him based on your experience. That is not just "sharing experiences"; that is using your experience as an authority-argument (and it's not the first time you do it). I'm not against sharing insights; I'm against absolute statements on what some other's answers means.

You are sure that Tom should drop this interest; some people think diferent. There is no problem in that. Let's drop it this way: Tom, there are diferent ways to experience and understand hex 16 unchanging. You need to examinate which one fits better to your own inner state. Just be true to yourself and avoid excitment -both atraction or fear- misslead your sense of reality

Best wishes

 

[sunrise65]

Hi jesed

Thanks for the measured response, I have been thinking about this over the weekend and have reread a number of times the comments made by all. I think lloyd has summed up for me that to never/not shoot the bow disallows any experience happening. I guess a bit like you either run to your destiny or your fate catches up to you. We all consult the Yi to seek guidance for our particular questions and everyone experiences the answers differently.

Personally, what have I got to lose by trying to follow this advice? loss of face, temporary embarrassment, return to obscurity.. I for one would rather fail trying than not try at all.. sometimes it hard, but thats the bottom line for me.

I have received sound advise from you guys and tend to act on it in hopefully a true and correct way, but only time and actions will tell what the outcome will be.

Best regards
Tom

 

[ginnie]

Experiences with divination

See... you are sure that hex 16 means to Tom that nothing will be achieved. Some others (Meng, Lloyd, myself) think diferent.

You are sure that Tom should drop this interest; some people think diferent.

Didn't realize there were only two sides . . . How awkward. Sorry, I just was not thinking at all in terms of two sides.

If there are indeed only two sides, I was under the impression I was on the same side as Tom.

I don't think "sure" is the correct word for my relationship with Yi. I think something important has gotten lost in translation here, but I don't have much time this evening to figure out what it was. I think it's best if we continue to share our experiences with divination, learning from each other.

Best wishes to you, Tom

 

[ginnie]

Is it resting, building oneself up, or is it going dancing?

When Lloyd encouraged Tom to take a shot, you discourage him based on your experience. That is not just "sharing experiences"; that is using your experience as an authority-argument (and it's not the first time you do it). I'm not against sharing insights; I'm against absolute statements on what some other's answers means.

To clarify, Hexagram 16 does not mean excitement. 'Excitement' sounds to me more like hexagram 31, emotional responsiveness to another person.

Hexagram 16 connotes something below the level of conscious thinking. It is like tapping your foot to music playing in the room. You are not thinking of the foot. You are not listening to the music, either. You just tap your foot without thinking about it.

As Stephen Karcher points out, H16 is about building up the strength for a spontaneous response. You build yourself up by resting so that later you can respond without thought. Later, you respond with spontaneity and enthusiasm. Or later on, you take the path of least resistance.

This hexagram also means gathering what you need to meet and enjoy the future. It is a time of preparation and taking precautions. It is a time of finding helpers. It is preparation for a mobilization. And then the accumulated energy can burst forth later, when it is needed.

The W/B translation uses the title ENTHUSIASM for H16.
The Blofeld translation uses the title REPOSE. REPOSE has also been translated as CALM CONFIDENCE.
The Legge translation uses no titles at all. Maybe it is better not to use titles, because words can be so misleading.

The contrast between REPOSE and ENTHUSIASM is quite something, is it not? What does this hexagram mean? Resting and Making Ready? Or Going Dancing and Taking Pleasure? Actually, it can mean both, but not at the same time, because that just doesn't make logical sense.

The Concordance put out by the Eranos Foundation calls this hexagram PROVIDING, Yu. It says: 'The situation described by this hexagram is characterized by providing for oneself and others, preparing for future ease and contentment.'

So I would say that if Tom needs to think about the young woman a lot, then this is not a hex 16 situation. But it could be a time of preparing and building himself up for the future.

In the quote above, I am chastised for being a repeat offender, like a hardened and unreformed criminal presence here at the website!

If anybody doesn't care for the way I write, they can put me on their Ignore List, which they can access from their own profile page. This is very easy to do. :bows::bows::bows:

I'll go back and read what I wrote, because I really don't think I'm always right. Nobody on earth could possibly make that claim, since we are all just students of Yi.

 

[lloyd]

The Legge translation uses no titles at all. Maybe it is better not to use titles, because words can be so misleading.

The ideal would be an I Ching with blank pages

 

[jesed]

Ok
An empty boat in this side of the river

Best

 

[sunrise65]

Hello all, again

Well some news and a bit of update, things have moved slowly since last posting. With Christmas apon us, we are both going away for the break so I thought it was best to wait for the holiday period to be over before making my moves It seems she has moved a bit closer but I am still unsure of how she sees me. still!

Tomorrow is or final day together for about 2 weeks and I wanted to see how to play it. Having asked "How should I approach the day tomorrow with S?" I recieved 8.1 -> 3 So trying to work out the take on this.

The line being :-
Confidently and sincerely seeking union.
His devotion to you and to truth makes this alliance correct.
Unexpected good fortune.

The Hexes seem to make sense to me and the question, but not sure about throwing coins again as suggested in 8? I think tomorrow may be a catalyst to how things will pan out in the future as to whether we stay friends or move on to something more special. It does sort of feel like a giving in as previously mentioned.

Look forward again to your thoughts and comments.
tom.

 

[jesed]

The Hexes seem to make sense to me and the question, but not sure about throwing coins again as suggested in 8?

Hi Tom

That is a frecuent missconception, due to Wilhelm's translation (well, Legge and Blofeld translated in similar ways).

The chinesse text doesn't says to ask again.

Best wishes

 

[lloyd]

coins vs play

Hi Tom
End good all good, even while it still begins ...
Which is to say, I suggest that from now on you don't go on with her by flipping coins for every step you take. Lovers take chances, don't let I Ching take out the playfulness.

 

[ginnie]

"How should I approach the day tomorrow with S?" I recieved 8.1 -> 3 So trying to work out the take on this.

not sure about throwing coins again as suggested in 8?

Look forward again to your thoughts and comments.
tom.

The lines are so clear, there seems little reason to ask a second question. If you are sincere, you will attract unexpected good fortune of some kind, what is called a "windfall." In other words, someone will give you something.

You might read the text of H3, too, as it indicates the need for helpers to overcome the difficulties at the beginning.

 

[sunrise65]

I suggest that from now on you don't go on with her by flipping coins for every step you take.

Thanks Lloyd and Jesed

Yes message understood.. just need to be bold now..

t.

 

[lloyd]

No need to be BOLD, just be who you are:

THOU wouldst be loved? — then let thy heart
From its present pathway part not!
Being everything which now thou art,
Be nothing which thou art not.

So with the world thy gentle ways,
Thy grace, thy more than beauty,
Shall be an endless theme of praise,
And love — a simple duty.

E.A. Poe

 

[sunrise65]

What a beautiful and apt poem.. Thx Lloyd you seem to hit the right note all the time.. well with me anyway.. your input is greatly appreciated..

Where were we before the internet..

t.

 

[lloyd]

Long, long before the chip there was funk.

 

[sunrise65]

Hello all again, and Happy New Year

Well after 2 weeks of absence, I broke down and turned to the IC after having feelings of mis-guidedness (if thats a word) for my actions and feelings for S. due to and very limited and disjointed contact over the break.I realise events may have conspired..

I have been desperately trying to keep away from the IC as I know that whilst she is not around, as all is up in the air and as Lloyd has said not to live by the coins.. but.. today I felt the unstoppable need to ask a question, which was "Am I mis-interpreting the relationship with S?" as maybe things had changed and I was not reading things right and following on from the readings earlier about Enthusiasm and whether it was grounded or misplaced etc., to which I got 34.3 -> 54.

I realise that there are many similar threads running through this reading and previous ones that I have done which should make me trust the outcome, but I am left a bit confused by the hexagrams, the first (The Power of the Great) to the second hexagram (The Marrying Maiden), which is a time of insecurity, "themselves drawn through changes that are quite beyond their control. Perhaps they feel dwarfed by the powers surrounding them, or 'out of the loop". Which exactly how I feel at the moment..

while the changing line pointing to considered actions and not pushing forward. So maybe a period of settling back into the rebuilding (washing over?) is what is being suggested.

As ever thoughts appreciated..

tom.

 

[ginnie]

34.3: Inferior men use their power and the Superior Man is likely to be tricked.

But Karcher says 34.3 means not that the Superior Man gets tricked, but that he uses strategy and an open heart instead of aggression.

There may be some bad memories -- unfortunate experiences from the past, too, that are creating hedge-like obstacles.

 

[sunrise65]

Huh?

If you ask me, 34.3>54 points to an entanglement your "girlfriend" is in with someone else. 8.1 did not promise you anything like a gift. It just said to be truthful. Nothing bad ever comes from honesty.

Hi trojanwench

Strangely enough she did give me a gift for Christmas, so maybe Ginnie is partly true. But I have to say that she isn't my girlfriend and I am interested to know why you think there is entanglement with someone else, I hadn't thought about that.

br
tom

 

[sunrise65]

Thx for that, well only time will tell..

Hard thing learning this 'life' thing and yes I am me..

 

[lloyd]

Hard thing learning this 'life' thing and yes I am me.

It's not that difficult and I Ching can help.
And whatever is not simple is neither Tao nor I Ching.
So, you take what you get from the forum; let pass what goes over your head.

 

[sunrise65]

Ok well, been back at work a couple of days and moved on from awkward to pretty much where we left off before Christmas, I ask the question " What does S. want from me?" and used the interactive bowl of balls from this great site as didnt have the scope to throw the coins.. and recieved 20 Unchanging. I would seem to me that I am being advised to stand back and take a long hard look at whats happening, and evaluation.. Looking at other translations I am inclined to think that there maybe other meanings but again I think it is portraying the need to 'think' about things. I doo feel that she is draw/attracted to me.. but am not good at reading the signs..

I thought that asking the question from S. point of view may have given me a more concise answer, but again I feel it is pointing back to me?

Would these be appropiate comments or am I misguided in my interpretations. I am how ever feeling more grounded and stable having listened to IC over the last couple of days and its reading seemed to have born fruit.

As ever look forward to your views.

t.

 

[lloyd]

Hi Tom - (smiley version this time ...)
After 'seeing' (19) there is 'overseeing' (20) Those with eyes may (over)see.
However, you are not to sit back and let goodies come to you (natural inclination ?)

Seeing sets one a notch above others and the Image of 20 says: The "king" uses his seeing (learning) to over-see (inspect/meet with) his country and he adds to his knowledge what the people see and think :bows: (so that his government may be in accord with their wishes)

It helps to read all the lines of 20, to get a feel of the movement that goes through this phase. In due time (having no moving lines) the hexagram will turn into its opposite, 34: After seeing and overseeing one (naturally) does the right things

There are only 2 or 3 lines in all of the I Ching that advise not to take action of any kind ......
If you want to groove, you'll have to moveompom:
And hey, maybe nothing gained nor lost, but it will feel funny when you learn at forty that you are cute and attractive; and that for decades you played hard to catch for girls who wanted you

 

[sunrise65]

Thanks Lloyd

Like the smiley version.. and have taken on board your thoughts and have read some on on the progression of the Hex. Just as I think I am getting a tiny bit of intuition and knowledge I feel swished back to square one.. obviously time and effort pay off in the end..

Onwards and upwards as they say.. I sense the time is drawing near..

Will report when and if..



t.

 

[lloyd]

Readings

Hi Tom - Some people do not take the Sequence and Images very serious; explaining that they were not there in versions of The Old Venerable Sages of Yore (such people often study Zhouyi; which is the I Ching without later added Taoist interpretations or Wings).
Be that as it may, they have been with I Ching for over 2000 years. I find them helpful in showing a part of the answer. I like the Images in particular, as they often describe what "The right person would do in the circumstances (action ...)".
Also. Don't get thrown by terms like 'Superior Man' or 'Great Man', etc. Like all else in I Ching, they can mean anything within the scope of their metaphorical meaning (real things back then, but metaphorical to us, at 2010).

 

[jesed]

I wouldn't say that the Wings are Taoist interpretations. It's a little more complex than that

Best wishes

 

[lloyd]

1 step at the time ......

Hi Jesed - Sure. But as Saki wrote: "Sometimes a little bit of in-accuracy saves tons of explanations".
Which strikes me as fine for the Shared Reading Q/A threads