First posting..

[jesed]

Agree. But Wings like Taoist interpretation is much more than just "a little bit of in-accuracy".

Anyway, I won't distract this thread anymore.

best wishes

 

[ginnie]

I ask the question " What does S. want from me?" and recieved 20 Unchanging. t.

I think it's saying she wants you to "look without acting in order to find the right perspective."

When a person views things properly, they can see the proper times for things . . .

 

[lloyd]

Granted. Maybe one could think one's way through life without ever having to feel ...

 

[ginnie]

A mood and a moment

Karcher speaks of H20 more in terms of its being a mood and a moment. H20 speaks not of analysis but of rituals and even initiations. He writes: "the Tower, initiation begins" . . . "Viewing. The ablution, then the libation. The connection to spirit will come like a presence."

This coming like a presence is something we feel in our bodies. In other words, I wouldn't over-intellectualize hexagram 20, because there is no need to do that.

I might, however, be seen as over-spiritualizing hexagram 20. But since Sunrise is already involved with the I Ching, I do think the movement of his life will be more towards the spiritual and less towards seeking his own advantage, in a gradual progression over time. I'm not implying that Sunrise should give up pursuing the opposite sex and never have a life; far from it.

There is a way that even our desires become less self-serving and more harmoniously in accord with what other people want. I don't see a conflict there.

 

[lloyd]

Neither does Indian philosophy, with its Kama Sutra, see any conflict between physical love and spirituality
Separating the two (spirituality/'advantage') as different goals is to confuse matters.

 

[jesed]

There is no "one Indian philosophy". Some branches of Indian philosophies doesn't see conflict betwwen physical love and spirituality; other banches of Indian philosophies does see a conflict there. Read about bramacharia and the way it was lived by Gandhi, for instance.

It seems to me -maybe I'm wrong- that for Lloyd no matter what the answer is, he would say "go for it, risk yourself"; and for Ginnie no matter what the answer is, she would say "don't go, don't risk".

About 20 unchanging, I'm with Ginnie here: hex 20 is not so much an hexagram about taking action, but more an exagram about find the previous right perspective. Of course, "see without act" doesn't imply "live without feel".

In my case, I would say: Tom is under enthusiasm; that is a good thing, but he needs to examinate if his enthusiasm has root in reality or not; and she is still like an observer; she is not to take any active/leading move now.

From here, I wouldn't say "this relationship will work", I wouldn't say "this relationship won't work", I wouldn't say "go for it", I wouldn't say "don't go for it".

My only advise to Tom would be "Keep in touch with both your inner impulses (enthusiasm) and your real context; follow your impulse as long as it probes to be grounded in reality; but balance it being beware of wishful thinking. And enjoy the venture of both following and discerning your own impulses in the meantime "

Best wishes

 

[sunrise65]

Hi Guys

I have been following this closely and have been digesting all your comments. In some ways I seemed to have reached a fork in the road, in terms of emotions, rational and perspective. I think that there maybe some kind of impasse where we are both waiting to see what happens, both unable to make or not prepared to, first move. I have understood the need to not over react and being under "Enthusiasm" to be grounded and not carried away, but there seems to be now a feeling that I am wrong if I do and wrong if I don't.. I think if I look at this situation in the cold light of day, I would say that I think that S. has given a couple of opportunities for the waves to part but I have not read them in time and the moment has passed. I the deep of the night.. I get to thinking that this is all imaginary on my behalf and that she only wants friendship, but then I guess you can't stop feelings and emotions.

I am becoming increasingly confused about where this path is taking me and the guidance from the IC has consistently counciled that patience is the best approach via a number of readings, and I think it might be time to take a step back and not risk a great friendship I have for the sake of maybe an 'over'? enthusiastic desire and maybe imagination. I think the only way of finding out if my thoughts and feelings are are grounded and in reality is to ask her? but then that would be incorrect at the moment..

So now I shall sit quietly (metaphorically) in the corner and see what occurs...

As ever
Tom

 

[pantherpanther]

Hi Guys

I have been following this closely and have been digesting all your comments. In some ways I seemed to have reached a fork in the road, in terms of emotions, rational and perspective. I think that there maybe some kind of impasse where we are both waiting to see what happens, both unable to make or not prepared to, first move. I have understood the need to not over react and being under "Enthusiasm" to be grounded and not carried away, but there seems to be now a feeling that I am wrong if I do and wrong if I don't.. I think if I look at this situation in the cold light of day, I would say that I think that S. has given a couple of opportunities for the waves to part but I have not read them in time and the moment has passed. I the deep of the night.. I get to thinking that this is all imaginary on my behalf and that she only wants friendship, but then I guess you can't stop feelings and emotions.

I am becoming increasingly confused about where this path is taking me and the guidance from the IC has consistently counciled that patience is the best approach via a number of readings, and I think it might be time to take a step back and not risk a great friendship I have for the sake of maybe an 'over'? enthusiastic desire and maybe imagination. I think the only way of finding out if my thoughts and feelings are are grounded and in reality is to ask her? but then that would be incorrect at the moment..

So now I shall sit quietly (metaphorically) in the corner and see what occurs...

As ever
Tom

You think that your first "guidance," Hexagram 16 has any relation to your "query"?

What can your personal attitude to and understanding of "Enthusiasm," if examined, tell you about yourself? Thinking about the situation that prompted your reading is better considered a separate business, unless there is an authority to indicate otherwise. (For the Taoists, an Immortal or ancient master.) Do you suppose otherwise? If so, perhaps you are not approaching the Yi impartially. In the Catholic church , there is guilt, but also forgiveness. The Yi doesn't do guilt or forgiveness. Just the way it is. It has practical counsel on shen and gui. Do you seek to love or be loved?

Examining the way enthusiasm habitually works in yourself is an opportuntiy to gain some space or distance from what is happening. By taking further readings, as you are doing, it seems you have demonstrated an habitual, personal attitude to your "enthusiasm" that you don't notice: Is Hexagram 16 about "patience"?

What does Enthusiasm - as one organic force - mean in you as are ,as an individual, who acts in life? Not just in one situation. How to use this force in every challenge?

 

[lloyd]

Rather than to replace them, the answers of I Ching are additional to our (thoughts and) actions.
I stay with the Image of 20: Tom (if acting Kingly) uses his seeing (learning) to over-see (inspect/meet with) his country and he adds to his knowledge what the people see and think (so that his government may be in accord with their wishes).
In the light of the strivings for ‘Sageliness’ in this thread: I can find no better metaphor myself for the merging of thought and action (Heaven and Earth) than this advice to 'kings'.

 

[pantherpanther]

Encore, Hexagram 16

Jean-Luc Godard's Une femme mariée (1964) when the man in the film asks the question:

How do I distinguish between the reality and the desire I have for it?

 

[lloyd]

What's the answer (in the movie)?

 

[sunrise65]

So.. after taking some time to think about what pantherpanther said, I tried to think about past patterns of behaviour and what Enthusiasm meant to me. I am still unsure of the outcome as have been trying to remember when I had such feelings. I can see parallels between my behaviour and comments quoted, but surely in life we ask further questions from the events that happen in our lives from family, friends etc, and I guess I am no different from the bulk of the 'population' when not understanding the answer seek to clarify by further questioning to reach that understanding. I do accept that it is better to seek one reading and focus on the meaning of that reading but when, maybe to a beginner to the forms of the IC it seems quite natural to ask further questions. I take on board the comments about patience and habitual behaviour, but until I have a better understanding if the Yiching it is all about the journey and not the arrival?! or the understand rather than the answer..

Anyway enough of me and normal service shall be resumed shortly.

 

[pantherpanther]

So.. after taking some time to think about what pantherpanther said, I tried to think about past patterns of behaviour and what Enthusiasm meant to me. I am still unsure of the outcome as have been trying to remember when I had such feelings. I can see parallels between my behaviour and comments quoted, but surely in life we ask further questions from the events that happen in our lives from family, friends etc, and I guess I am no different from the bulk of the 'population' when not understanding the answer seek to clarify by further questioning to reach that understanding. I do accept that it is better to seek one reading and focus on the meaning of that reading but when, maybe to a beginner to the forms of the IC it seems quite natural to ask further questions. I take on board the comments about patience and habitual behaviour, but until I have a better understanding if the Yiching it is all about the journey and not the arrival?! or the understand rather than the answer..

Anyway enough of me and normal service shall be resumed shortly.

We can notice,at times, we repeat a pattern of responding in similar ways in certain conditions and to certain events . It can be useful to not judge oneself, justify etc at such moments and simply observe and "take a photo." If we try to change ourselves directly without much seeing we may just repeat the habit in another way, like substiting one addiction for another. Figuring out how we acted in the past may be useful, but the present is our real opportunity to learn something new.

I don't have any opinion about doing many readings, as "follow ons." I think taking one reading at a time applies, too. I noticed someone commented on another thread concerning a relationship reading that they should consider what the hexagrams say is 'about how you see or think , not about how she sees or thinks .' Interesting thought.
,

 

[sunrise65]

{snip}I don't have any opinion about doing many readings, as "follow ons." I think taking one reading at a time applies, too. I noticed someone commented on another thread concerning a relationship reading that they should consider what the hexagrams say is 'about how you see or think , not about how she sees or thinks .' Interesting thought.
,

Yes I saw this too and pondered.. but then on the whole you know what "your" feelings are don't "you"? so the guidance is sort is how you relate, react to the other person.. It certainly is good to focus the mind though, I think I have learnt a lot from this experience and as you say take a snapshot before moving on whatever the outcome, obviously it would be nice if it was positive

 

[lloyd]

Hi Tom -After 74 postings in this thread I call it a day. Have fun and good luck

 

[lloyd]

Hi Tom - Thanks for your letter and thanks. Yesterday I was listening to one of my favorite life-ballads. I bet you can find it on Emule or Limewire. My point: I Ching helps, but poetry and songs have our answers.

Thoroughfare Gap (Steven Stills)

Sometimes I consider my pace
I'm reminded of a train
Gathering speed for the climb to the pass.

In whose shadow it already lies, a small metal dragon
Approaching the ever-present ascending rise
To the seventh mountain.

Reeling and snaking and leaping it seems
Like it wants to come loose from its path cast in iron.
But she can't slow down now as the earth has presented
A new crest to reach without barely a rest
From the last one.

And you wonder just what lies beyond
Though you've been there before
And forget about the effort and the strain.
Always ascending each yard adds a mile
To the never-ending pull of the steepening grade
That's before you.

A valley, a forest, a desert, a stream
With an oversized bridge for the trickle there beneath.
You remember the torrent it turned to last spring
From the snows melting fast and the river it became
In the summer

Perhaps it is ruined from a fire that has scorched it
So badly that nothing will grow without rain.
To wash away the blackened soil
Now useless till called upon again
In a future as twisted and far away
As the next range of mountains.

So take it as far as you see and beyond
With eyes you don't use enough, gather up strength
As thoroughfare gap will await you forever
You're seeking to get there for even before
It's no matter
No distance
It's the ride.