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Five element theory

jukkodave

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Hi Freedda
I appreciate that Harmen, and many others believe that 5E works in TCM but the evidence is not convincing. TCM, when practiced without any 5E considerations is considerable more effective than when 5E is used. That is not to say the 5E does not work, it obviously does, but the question we should ask is does it work as well as it could. We know the difference between needling an area that is not a point, a random point, a point on the same channel or a specific point, historically known to have a certain action, and the results show us that for "internal", non muscle related conditions, that the more specific a point is the better the results. So while 5E does work there is little real evidence to show that it works much better than picking random points or picking points on the same channel. So yes 5E does work but it is the comparison between the different types of TCM that is the important consideration. As I said earlier I have been discussing this with many experienced Acupuncurists over the years and not one has been able to provide a coherent explanation, all I get is a "belief" in something and references to historical documents that prove nothing, is all anyone has ever been able to revert to in the final instance.

I am aware of the linguistics and usage of terms that have become the common terms in current times, but the lack of those terms in ancient dicuments does not change the fact that whatever terms we use the "principles " remain the same. A line can be either broken or unbroken, it really doesnt matter what the termonology is, that is the basic and fundamental factor and without that discrimination of two vital and diametrically opposed "forces" we wouldnt have a YiJing at all. We use the term Yin and Yang nowadays because that has become the terminology of our time to describe those two fundamentals. Perhaps the authors of those ancient documents considered it so obvious they did not need to state it or perhaps they considered it two difficult to put such fundamentals into words or even give them a label. The use of Yin and Yang is completely misunderstood in terms if TCM and it took me many years to get a better understanding of what Yin and Yang really were. I think that my earlier experiences of the I Ching helped enourmously in that regard, first to realise that there is nothing fixed or static about Yin or Yang and it is the process of change and relationships that illuminated my understanding of TCM. Completely different to what I had been taught and what is presented in books. But I would not know where to even begin to actually describe Yin and Yang as fundamental concepts and it is only from a TCM perspective of the dynamics in action that I could even begin an explanation. There is no single word that could ever facillitate an understanding of what that basic dynamic duality is. I have made up a few words over the years, which to me make more sense but then realised that Yin and Yang serve the purpose anyway. The two dynamic principles cannot ever be restricted to any linguistic constraints. In fact even the attempt to do so linguistically is favouring one principle greatly over the other, which explains why one can never properly diescibe in words what Yin and Yang really are. If we understand what Yin and Yang really are the lack of the terms that have become common usage should not be a surprise, nor should the absense of any specific terms be a surprise. The Yi is in itself a way of trying to descibe what Yin and Yang are, two dynamic principles, that only exist in relation to the other. How can we ever describe, with a separate word, something that can only exist when the other also exists. Which makes the "interpretations" of Hexegrams 1 and 2 somewhat dubious and the concept of why there should be a separate extra line rather dubious as well. Again this is a question of coherence.
One thing that Harmen reminds us of is that "The Yijing exists to make itself unneeded".
How can we do that unless we really understand all aspects of the Yi, unless we understand all aspects of ourselves. So while you may not be that interested in the question of 5E the matter of whether it is accurate or relevant is of the utmost importance if we intend use the Yi properly.

I wont get to serious about the 450 as it is something that you have conjured up, but then why not, you may have in your conjuring hit on something important and of real insight and should not be dismissed without a proper examination to see if there is coherence in there.
Just becuase there are "statements" does not make them of an equal or relevant standing, lines are different from the final image of the Hexegram. If we are to consider "statements" perhaps we should also consider the position of each hexagram relative one to the other as a statement and then the statement of the numer becomes just as important as the words that describe the Hexagram. From the perspective of coherence, where both principles of Yin and Yang are considered, such that we recognise the limitations of the words of the Hexagrams and have to consider that the symbolism of the numerical position is just as important as any linguistical considerations, and that would make, if there was only one way of arranging the Hexagrams, the "statements" number 514. I am sure tht someone might be inclined to find some symbolism in that number but obviously not one connected to 5.
So actually I am inclined to take it seriously as what you have raised and highlighted is a very important consideration, one that should not be dismissed lightly and should be properly examined and as one that reveals that the position of one Hexagram to another is just as important as the words of the Hexagram. The change of relative position that a changing line, or lines, gives us just as important as the changing lines themselves and the Hexagram it changes to. I think that Bradford has postulated some very interesting ideas on this point.
We might, for example, get Hexagram 1 as a reading, with 4 changing lines or with 3 changing lines, the "difference between the two would not in one sense perhaps be that different in the sense of the lines, but the resulting Hexagram would be different and just as importantly so would the Hexagrams position realtive to Hexagram 1. It is the relativity that illuminates what the Yi is all about, no one Hexagram exists without all of the others. However we choose to lay out the Hexagrams, a square being the most obvious but not necessarily the only option, it is the relationship from one to the other that must be considered to comprehend the full meaning of any reading. If we confine ourselves to words we are only considering and favouring one part of the fundamental dichotomy that exist in each and every Hexagram and line in the Yi. If we are favouring only one part how can we ever consider that we understand the Yi and fulfil the rules that Harmen reminds us of.
Thank you Freedda, this is so much fun, I rarely get a chance to express or question my understanding as few have any comprehension and it seems that students of the Yi are far more educated and knowledgeable than I first realised.
All the best
Dave
 
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hmesker

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TCM, when practiced without any 5E considerations is considerable more effective than when 5E is used.
I would like to see specific documented examples of this. When and where has this been tested?
 

jukkodave

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Hi hmesker
I dont hink I have the specific references that I think you are looking for as I dont think that anyone has ever done a like for like comparative study on various modalities. My references come from various sources and observations and experience.
I initially came across a study done in China published back in the late 70's or 80's, comparing the effectivenesss of TCM vs Western Medicine. The results for TCM were over 90%. Not interested in data of any sort back then I never did keep the reference and all I know is that it was published in an english version of a Chinese Journal. But for me that for me set the bar of what is possibe from experienced practitioners and what we should be aiming acheiving in clinical practice. I knew from my own expereinces and those that I trained with that I, and they, while getting good results, were falling way short of that 90%, and I have that repeatedly confirmed and subsequently when I ask practitioners how succesful they are, I get the response that 90% seems extraordinarily high, so they obviously arent getting close to that figure, most people when pushed suggest just over 50%, which was similar to what I had been getting before I dropeed the 5E approach, and with lots of treatments and follw ups, possibly for ever, but that 90%b is a realistic figure and once I dropped the 5E myself that was the figures I began to get much closer to reaching. So I know from personal experience and while a single persons experience would obviously not be enough, the responses from other Acupuncturists would clearly show that those that use 5E are falling way short of that potential, because they incorporate 5E and those that I know that practice non 5E also report a greater success. Perhaps most interestingly the effects of the treatments, which were often only one or two treatments have often lasted a lifetime.
I thought that it was common knowledge that the arrival of DeQi was known to correlate with treatment outcome and trying to obtain DeQi on a point that was random or not an active point is not easy. That in itself tells us a huge something. I also thought that is t was common knowledge that if you used points that were known to have specific actions they were more effective than random points. There would be litlle benefit for Acupuncture of that was not the case.
The points according to 5E are simply not "active " points a lot of the time and was one of the main reasons that I realised that 5E did not work. I was instructed that palpation was an important part of both diagnosis and treatment protocol and quickly realised that the points "tell" us a huge amount, both in terms if what is wrong and what the best treatment should be. Sure if you want to deal with just the channels and collaterals it doesnt make a huge amount of difference what modality is used and there are some interesting modalities that are in practice that give us information us how the external channels and collaterals work, balance and harmonise, but as the Ling Shu makes clear, the better practioner goes beyond those criteria. So if one is treating based upon "internal" medicine then the accuracy of diagnosis and the treatment become more refined and important and the use of the most appropriate points becomes more relevant.
If 5E worked there wouldnt need to be "combined" training establishements. What was taught back in the 80's in China was simple unadulterated 8 Principles and when the professors over there were asked about 5E "thoery" they said it was a theory that wasnt how it was used in practice.
If there was a sound theoretical framework for 5E then that would be a different matter, but there isnt. There is enough information on this site to demonstrate that and how we ever jumped from having the 5th "element" at the centre to it becoming incorporated into a cycle of equal phases is a mystery, unless we look at the history and what happened about 200BC ish. Then we can begon to see how 5E was converted to the system we know now, but it clearly doesnt have any coherent framework to justify it inclusion into any practical system, whether that is the Yi or TCM.
So I think the answer to your question is that, as far as I am aware, there hasnt been a test comparing one practice modality over another, I was speaking from nigh in 40 years of experience and discussions, but if you look at enough of the evidence that comes from all sorts of research, listen to the experiences of those that have tried both 5E and 8 Principle TCM separately, examine the rationality of how 5 could ever be "fitted" into the framework of TCM, and use a bit of common sense and be prepared, which is perhaps the hardest thing to do, to let go of ideas that have no rationality to them,it then it is hard to find any other conclusion that 5E has no place in clinical treatment. That is what I was informed back in the 80's, was the result of mine and others experience and to date no one has ever come up with a coherent rationality that fits all of the facts, to show that beyond a theoretical notion that 5E works.
I am assuming from the link to the website that you have TCM experience, you certainly have a wide knowledge. But consider this. Why do we place such veneration of ancient classical documents. As far as the medical texts are concerned they contain many contradictions, but we tend to ignore those and choose the part of the contradictions that suit us. Why would we think that they had more knowledge 2000+ years ago than we have now. In any other field we would have moved on from a 2000 year old perspective. We are "told" that we can have channels crossing each other, that we can have Yang Channels on a Yin surface, that "Yang" channels "flow from top to bottom even though Yang rises and various other things that make no sense at all. I realised very early on that the points all have a "sensation", an extension of the palpation methodology, but the Stomach points on the leg did not have the same sensation as those on the torso, but points on the back did, for a while I thought that I must have it wrong, how could the venerated ancients have got it so wrong, but the classifications that have come down from thousands of years ago is not accurate and the attempt to incorporate the WuXing into medicine was probably a political one that tried to place the Emperor in a higher position and what was "handed down" in document form is not really that relevant, especially given that we know that the way the information was passed from teacher to student, because it was considered most precious and secret a lot of the time, was by word of mouth and never would have been written down anyway. And you only have to look at the text books of today that are required to be able to train in Chinese Medicine to realise that the limitations of what was recorded on slips of bamboo or silk were never going to be detailed enought to be of any practical use. So what then was the "purpose" of the NeiJing, it seems rather odd then as to what got recorded.
But why are we even dependent on anyone else from thousands of years ago. Where did they get their information from, they had no books to read. Are we really that different to how they were thousands of years ago. Just look at the diversity of opinions about TCM, why should we think it was any different back then. Would we take a rather small and limited work nowadays to have any relevance. Are we any different to those that discovered the points and the functions of the Zang Fu. We are fortunate to have books and teachers to set us on the path in the first instance but surely we should be discovering the same skill set that enabled TCM to come into existence in the first place. We should not need to look in a book to know the action of a particular point, or to understand how the Zang Fu function. When we take on that task things get very simple and very clear and from that practical perspective there is no place for 5E.
On the other hand one always has to remain open to possibilities and the persistent use of 5 throughout history may have some relevance. It certainly has some relevance but not in the way that it is understood or used and it may be nothing more than a persitent belief that no one wants to let go of but it was what I was taught, lots of people believe it has relevance and I came to this forum as a way of examining 5E from more than just a TCM perspective. It has only confirmed what I thought, that 5E, as we consider and use it today anyway, has no place in either TCM or the Yi.
I will go through my piles of Journals and see if I can find things more specific and post them here, but I dont recall ever coming across a comparative study. Not quite sure where and how that might be done anyway. So I think it is more about putting all the pieces together, using logic and common sense and being brutal with oneself in order to be able to let go of old ideas and that has to start with ending our reliance and unfounded veneration of texts just because they are old.
All the best
Dave
 
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Freedda

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.... But for me that for me set the bar of what is possibe from experienced practitioners and what we should be aiming acheiving in clinical practice.
From this I gather you are a medical practitioner of some kind. Are you a licensed acupuncturist? Or?

And PS - just a suggestion, remember to hit the enter/space key twice between paragraphs to give some space between them. And you might consider shorter blocks of text to make them more accessible and readable. Just a suggestion.
 
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jukkodave

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Hi Freedda
I will take on board your formatting suggestions. I do get rather carried away and enthused and to tend to elaborate, but then everything is so connected that it is rather difficult not to.
Yes I trained as an Acupuncturist back in the early 80's. How I can speak from both personal experience and the experiences of those I have known since that time, both 5E and non 5E practitioners.

The dilemma I think is that the Yi describes the world we live in, from the basic perspective of the two dichotomies, Yin and Yang, but I dont see any repeated reference to that which generates the 2 and I think that is possibly a reason for its limitation in terms of a medical use. Yes I know that some have tried to connect the two but I dont see any coherence that would validate any of those theories, and yet the basics of TCM is Ying and Yang so there must be a correlation with the Yi.

I know that the Chinese are historically obsessed with the numbers 5 and 8 and try to fit everything into that numerical classification, and there are some certain correlations that give some insights, but as a "fundamental", which is where I would insist, for all sorts of reasons, that we have to have the perspective from for anything to make sense and be usable, the "interpretations" that have come down to us historically, they simply do not work as described or even make any real sense.

But of course in everything there must be a germ of usefulness and the consideration of how 450 might be relevant forced me to think in a different direction and that gave an insight that I dont think I would have reached otherwise.
But we are more than 2000 years down the road, we should know what is going on in these systems by now. We have the same abilities in us as the originators of the Yi and TCM, so I would sugggest that we need to focus inwards, more on developing that potential in us, than to focus on the external and try to take historical perceptions and other derived concepts. I think it is the continuing focussing on the externals, including the unwarratned veneration of the history, though it is interesting and does contain some pearls of course, but without the framework and full understandin g how could we begin to know which is pearl and which is dross.
Because everything is connected we can look at Neurology and realise a lot from that and then we can begin to see that both the Yi and TCM are only really presenting a particular side of the picture. I didnt realise that so clearly about TCM until I came to this forum and it was really our conversations that pushed me to realise that and like many things it required letting go of some precious concepts, but once the dust settles hopefull the clarity becomes more and more apparent.
Yi, TCM, Neurology and pretty much most of the various frameworks that have been used to "describe" the world and human beings all give something, all have their pearls, and of course their dross, and the comparison of one to the other gives the potential for a measure and a perspective that no one system can ever acheive. Each has the potential to compliment the others, if we are prepared to recognise that no one sytem can ever be complete, and so is confined by its limitations, and as no system seems to ever present itself as limited and incomplete the process of learning can be a painful one as we let go concept after concept from what we have been taught in the first place.
Education and learning is a wonderful thing, but if it worked then we would not have so many questions about the Yi or TCM and nether would there be nay contradictions. We have to admot that our training cannot be proper or correct or there would be less and less dilemmas and contradictions as the years go by and more than 2000 years later we would have a sound handle on the fundamentals and know exactly how and if such concepts as 5E actually worked or could be used and of all their strenghts and limitations, as everything of course, being imperfect, must have both strengths and limitations, whether that is part of the Yi or TCM.
I have recognised over the years what the strengths and limitation are of TCM but I think I know the strengths of the Yi but what would you say are its limitations. Would anyone else like to comment in the Yi's limitations.

All the best
Dave
 
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legume

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interesting website, ernobe and thanks for starting this thread. i always found it very curious that the 5 elements didn't really seem to fit with the rest of taoist system and how separate they appear compared with the trigrams, ba gua and TCM ba gang diagnostics. and i'd probably be inclined to agree with previous statements that it's a mistake and source of confusion to try and connect them, yet when i look deeper into alchemy, the Secret of the Golden Flower, Gurdjieff's 4th way teachings or Shurangama Sutra, i get the feeling it actually makes sense.

i guess, just because historically things don't fall into logical order, does not mean such order did not previously exist. we are lucky to still have access to many ancient texts, but even these remaining sources cannot paint the full picture, without deriving additional understanding through another cultural lens. for example Surangama Sutra, although a buddhist work, i believe originally written in Sanskrit survived only in Chinese and is now being translated to many languages. or Slavic mythology which barely left any traces, yet through cross-cultural comparative analysis can be now revived to a fuller, more comprehensive form.

i share the vision mentioned already in this thread, in which 5 elements can be ascribed to the 4 quarters, with earth being the centre (the only 8 posible 1-9 magic squares have a 5 in the center - this describes mathematical proof for all square symmetries). geometrically speaking, everything emerges from that point, giving birth to the law of 3, the 5 elements, law of 7 or the law of octaves, eightfold path, the enneagram... it's mind boggling at times to see these connections, to play with the Lo Shu square and discover the seal of Saturn and wonder how curious that eastern music originally used pentatonic scale and the west usually built scales on 7 steps, that colour theory aligns with the circle of 5hs and all religions seem to repeat the same numerological and elemental story... if the mind cannot grasp all this, then what can? if everything's in constant change then what remains still and unchanged to observe these changes?

@jukkodave, i'm a bit late to the thread, but thank you for extra food for thought, i can see how no 5e approach in acupuncture might be more effective with application of 8 principles and just working on the meridians, but i'd think this wouldn't stand a chance with Chinese herbs or 5 elements based diet that can support or be the treatment, while aside from acupunture, together with moxa and tuina massage, are also a huge part of Chinese medicine. in TCM 5 elements are also connected with 5 inner shen or spirits, each residing in one of the zang, or solid organs - Shen, the mind in the heart, Yi, the intellect in the spleen, Zhi, the willpower in the kidneys, Po spirit or the corporeal soul residing in the lungs and going back to earth with the body, and Hun, the ethereal soul that lives in the liver and lives on after death. for anyone interested i recommend a book The Psyche in Chinese Medicine by Maciocia or related entry on author's blog where he also draws interesting connections with Jungian psychology.

I have recognised over the years what the strengths and limitation are of TCM but I think I know the strengths of the Yi but what would you say are its limitations. Would anyone else like to comment in the Yi's limitations.

maybe it's confusing to try and fit everything together, but as i do, by serendipity i come across wonderful synchronicities that help me gain new sort of understanding... when i contemplate on the center, emptiness, and illusion i can almost stay in that place of knowing. being? maybe, although I Ching supports the clarity of mind, its limit is in its connection to the mind? in a way, could it be like a crutch, that if, on a way to recovery, one grows used to, one might never fully realise one's own capacity?
 

Gmulii

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TCM is rooted in the Neijing. And of course the Neijing explains in details how to use the 5 elements to diagnose, heal or stay healthy in relation to the seasons.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Huangdi_Neijing

Can you use TCM without the Neijing and the other classics... That won't be TCM, as the TCM(focusing on the T for traditional and the C for Chinese) obviously need to step on some tradition.

Can you needle a meridian and still get results without knowing anything about the elements... I doubt it, but in theory I guess its possible. No idea why you would want to, though.
 

Gmulii

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This was about the TCM part, the whole topic is so big I haven't read everything, but the problem is that its very challenging to comment on that part. If you look how Five Arts are viewed in Asia they are used as interlinked. We can diagnose based on Feng Shui stars what illnesses people in the house will get, and for that we use the Trigrams/Elements and the forms in the place. And it does work, I have done it countless times too as its a beginning level to the system.

We can use BaZi to say what illnesses will show up in each new 10 year period. Also works, also many examples even in live readings in the forums.

And of course, all that is interlinked with TCM where the actual healing part is.
Often quoted saying from legendary healers in China say that you can't practice TCM without understanding Yi Jing. And in there that means the 5 elemetns, with the Hexagrams and everything else.

In that sense, its very difficult to comment on topic about the 5 elements, as in the Five Arts this is so obviously taken as working that they have build enormousness systems and schools from Bazi(their astrology), Feng Shui, Face Reading, Warfare(QMDJ) or many other fields spanning centuries and millennia back and many of them work very, very well.

And the 5 elements are the calendar(10 heavenly stems and 12 earthly branches) that is used everywhere and is so integral to most of the systems(including TCM) that at this point I haven't seen any practitioner in Asia wondering if it works, its just accepted as a very first step that it does.

So commenting on "are they needed" seem silly. I get in the west it looks differently as we got the text coming with the lines somewhat "out of context". That is fine, just makes it difficult to comment on the topic.

As it would be much like commenting do we need to learn "words" to know a language, or we can just use whole sentences.
Sure, we can just use whole sentences in theory and the advantage of learning words is that for a very long time it has done a great work... But the other approach may also work, will just be much more difficult to follow.
 
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legume

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Can you needle a meridian and still get results without knowing anything about the elements... I doubt it, but in theory I guess its possible. No idea why you would want to, though.

thanks for joining in, very much agree on Neijing and other classics and the fact that leaving out 5 elements makes for much shallower understanding of TCM.

on the contrary, i had an apprenticeship with an acupuncturist and she used pretty much same points for all her treatments and had good results, also wrote a book about her method and many people praised her practice. but then, during study with yet another practitioner i came across a case where the patient was referred to herbalist, due to higher effectiveness of herbs (on alopecia, according to my mental notes), that, as mentioned before, are mostly chosen based on 5 elements.

i noticed that some of my senior Chinese teachers during acupuncture course would place more focus on meridian and points theory, which is only natural, considering that the 5e material and other TCM theories are just the foundation for further studies. in their practice they would seemingly choose abstract points for needling, yet when confronted with question from a student, they could always explain their decision on every level, meridian, point relationships, 5 elements, all in detail.

afaik, the Chinese educational system ensures that this knowledge is deeply engraved in practitioner's memory and serves for a greater understanding of the holistic TCM system, which unfortunately, i find, in the West is becoming quite diluted.
 

Gmulii

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I do agree. : )

And of course, viewing the meridians with the earthly branches give a lot of powerful tools we can use together with that.

Every 2 hour with the change of the earthly branch of the bazi different meridian activate.
Looking at the chart we can see people that hurt in specific place will often hurt there when that meridian activates in the hour of the earthly branches, and when we see year, month and day branches will be connected to the problem we can guess there may be serious health crisis with that and often be correct.

The opposite also works, we see someone feeling pain in specific part of the body we can get a lot of info from that. Lungs(so trouble with breathing) - metal for example. Would be Dui Trigram. Feeling it stronger between 17-19 in some days - again metal, 2 images - for sure problem with metal.

Then we look at their bazi(day of birth elements) to see what is happening, or the Trigrams/Stars in their house(feng shui) to see and the parts of it related to metal will have bad forms most of the time together with problems with metal in the chart. Fixing that can help a little, although once it shows up usually need more.

Bazi masters can even figure out problems with the house from their birth elements in specific time of their life, although that is way beyond what people in the west(including me obviously) can do.

In that sense if we look at the meridians as flowing with the elements not only we can use Yi Jing, Bazi and the other system for diagnosis, but we also can see how the illness will develop with time using the Chinese calendar. We can also see how we can help balance it even just with lifestyle choices sometimes.

Can we do it with just Yin and Yang... Well, no, because the elements are the glue that connects it with everything else, form life events(bazi), to situations(yi jing) and to everything else including the house they reside in.

And of course that is how its viewed in Asia, most of the time.
Its a powerful approach and while there may be practitioners that won't be using it, and will use more mechanical use of the system, if we are interested in more then 1 school in the Five Arts it can be very powerful instrument and that is how it is agreed on using neijing and the other classics as a foundation.

I'm not practicing acupuncture, but the relation of the earthly branches to the physical body is very easy to see when reading bazi charts or making a feng shui assessment of a house etc. I do like neijing in my view the TCM classics are just Yi Jing in relation to health. Considering that taking the elements out of it, while still may be able to needle a point or prescribe a herb, it can't be places in a larger context, as the elements are needed for that.
 

jukkodave

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Hi legume, I would point out that Giovanni Maciocia's works are based upon the concept of 5E, so it would be surprising if he said anything to the contrary. I have read most of his works and his reliance on the 5E was always a bone of contention. One has to remember that there were origninally 6 Zang and 6 Fu organs, though one had to be dropped to make it "fit" into 5E. Interestingly there seemed to be no inclination to drop the 6th Fu organ, nor was it possible as the San Jiao is to tied in with the foundations of Kidney function and the "fire" of the body. But as part of a internal/external pair if one is going to drop a Zang organ one would have to drop its corresponding Fu to retain any coherence about TCM. Have you ever though about how the correlation between "solid" and "hollow" ever came about and how the Lungs might be considered a solid organ, when they contain nothing but air, and for half the time not even that much air, so they are really rather empty. The designations of such things derived from the relationships of the 12 organs, one to the other, ther really is no such thing as Zang and Fu in the manner that we are "taught" and despite the inclination in the TCM Classics to put the Zang as rather more important than the Fu, when you take away the 5E concept you quickly realise that all 12 organs are equally important and each relies on all the others for their proper functioning.
You have to remember that the 5 spirits are associated originally with Chineses Astrology, that was the limit of the astrological bodies that were known at that time and that the history informs us that there was a move from the emporers of the time to try to quell the masses dependemce on ghosts, spirits and the like and for everything to bu under the rule of the Emporer. That explains the concept of placing the Yellow Emporer at the "centre" 0f the 4 existing elements, but placing the 5th element at the centre does not explain nor justify the adaptation of that central concept into the sytem of 5E that we now have where all 5 are placed in a circle and "act" on each other.
It is not surprising to find references to 5, in such works as the Golden Flower, though I cannot actuall recall any specifics of the top of my head and as a work that came after establishement of 5E it would not be surprising if it included references to the concepts that preceded it, and of course Gurdjieff was a recent commentator, the Sutra you reference makes references to all sorts of numbers, including 2,5,6,7,8,9,12,18, from what I recall most of the references to 5 are to the physical senses, though it is obvious that we clearly have more than 5 "senses" or the Yi would simply not work for us and it is highly debatable that we have 5 senses anyway as we are far more than just physical beings and have at the very least an electromagnetic component that we physically gove and receive all the time and just because we have lost most of the conscious awareness of our other senses does not mean that they dont exist.

I would tend to agree with you that anything that one might be inclined to use as a crutch might hold us back from realising our true potential.
Because 5E has no coherent foundation in any framework that seem to be those that exist in just about any civilisation I consider that 5E is such a crutch. Fundamentally ther is nothing that cannot be understood with proper understanding of the two fundamentals of Yin and Yang and their initial actions, that gives us 4. 4 gives us 8 and 12 and 8 gives us 64. Both 12 and 64 "reduce" to the common denominator of 4 which we know is a derivation of 2. The difficulty that I have with the Yi is that although there is movement within the 64 there is nothing in the derivation from 2 to 4 to 8 to 64 which provides a rational coherent explanation of "why" there is movement.
That is one of the things that I was hopeful that someone might have recognised as a weakness and limitation of the Yi. So with no real reason for any movement we have had to contrive movement through extrapolation of sheer numerical volume, rather than an intrinsic " reason" for the "movement" of Ying and Yang that might generate the 64 Hexagrams.
If 5 does have a place then it must be coherent within that system and if such a "system" has any validity on being relevant to the "bigger" pictures of the universe then one system will be able to show clear correlation with any other such system. The problem with 5E that it doesnt meet that criteria and when one realises the history and how and why such ancient books were written and how and why they survided one gets a much clearer picture that reveals that 5 is an unnecesary contrivances.
 

jukkodave

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Can you needle a meridian and still get results without knowing anything about the elements... I doubt it, but in theory I guess its possible. No idea why you would want to, though.

Yes absolutely! That is one of the more relevant and important considerations. One simply has no need of 5E to be able to practice Chinese Medicine. In fact by eliminating concepts, such as 5E, that add nothing to the practice of TCM, ones results improve dramatically. One knows the functions of the Zang Fu and the actions of the points
In fact TCM doesnt actually come from the classics it was passed down from teacher to student by word of mouth and our apparently increasing reliance on books that contain numerous contradictions and inconsitencies and which then get completely misconstrued in an attempt to create order out of the chaos that the classics create, only compounds the errors which begin with the Classics. Which is not to say that they dont have value but until we know why they were written in the first place and how they happened to (just) survive when most other books failed to do so, and have a real understanding of what TCM really is then we are going to have no idea what is of value and what isnt. At the end of the day those that discovered what we now consider to be TCM were only human, they had no more ability than those who are alive today and we should strive to "know" the patterns of TCM, the actions of the points, for ourselves and not be overly reliant on what gets written in a book. Of course a book is a brilliant way though to start of ones journey.

I would suggest the opposite of "leaving out 5 elements makes for much shallower understanding of TCM" and that leaving out a "system", no matter how old it is, that doesnt have any coherent framework and is only based upon concepts that actually "dilute" the real understanding of TCM, really is the way forward. Just because we dont know enough to challenge our teachers while we are students does not mena that we should be prepared to perpetuate what can only be described as a myth, once we apply a little logic to the question of where did 5E come from and how does 5 "fit" into a system of 12.

Every 2 hour with the change of the earthly branch of the bazi different meridian activate

Unfortunately the "concept" of the clock and the way that Qi "flows" along the meridians is simply incorrect. Anyway, any supposed flow does not require any involvement of 5E to be able to flow. There is of course a "relationship" of one Meridian/Organ to another and one of those relationships is the one that we ascribe to internal/external, but they dont follow each other in the way that the "clock " relies on. That "clock" is a gross over simplification of what is rather more complex than is presented and a proper understanding not only reveals that but shows how and why many of the connections in TCM are applicable and even why the extraordinary meridian coupled points work, though it does show that not all the points passed down are the proper points.
I shall include all the details of that in an upcoming book on the subject.

"you can't practice TCM without understanding Yi Jing"
Well obviously you can. As far as I am aware I dont know of any TCM training that relies on the use of the Yi. Seems like something that a proponent of the Yi might have said to make themselves seem more important.

Of course the other references you make are derived from the concept of the 5E so obviously they are going to support the concept of 5E, but that doesnt mean that there is any validity in the framework or even that they do actually "work", as we are "connected" to our environment, to the universe, and to each other in so many other ways that can influence results. But then again one only has to look at many "succesful" results to realise that lots of them are little more than random results and prove little at all. We know this and hence the reason for double blind studies as even knowing one of the factors can influence the outcome considerably.

Can we do it with just Yin and Yang... Well, no, because the elements are the glue that connects it with everything else

Well, yes, as its the other way around- Yin and Yang are the glue that binds everything else.
And of course there are only 4 elements, as the 5th was only ever at the centre and not an "equal" of the other 4. Yin and Yang are the origins of the rest of the manifestations.
Understand Yin and Yang, and how they move, and what cannot be understood?


At the end of the day there is no coherent framework that relates 5E to either the principles of 12 of TCM or the 8 or 64 of the Yi. Of course those that wish to "believe" in such a concept of 5E are going to give examples of how they are used, but that doesnt make them valid, we used to think the world was flat and that the Sun went around the Earth and many such other outdated ideas. In fact throughout most of history we see that the "concepts" of long ago get replaced with better understanding, so why should we rely on ancient concepts rather than use the logic and understanding that we have nowadays. A little of that logic reveals that 5E simply has no coherence and was most likely contrived thousands of years ago for political reasons. Personally I do not see much to trust any polititians and there is no reason to think that would have been any different in China thousands of years ago.
 

Gmulii

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This is very difficult topic for someone that has studied the Five Arts in the way they are seen in Asia for some years.Because it my view it is something like being in a cooking forum in a topic about pizza. And we have someone strongly convinced tomatoes doesn't exist as they live in a country where they aren't sold in stores.

Now, what can we possible do... We can point out if he go to a store in another country, he will see plenty of tomatoes all around there, but that requires effort and that requires at least some doubt in what they believe in... So that can't really work. We can show many people explaining they are eating tomatoes all the time, but they all can be considered misguided no matter how many of their students has became famous chefs or how many restaurants they have opened with happy people in...

We can post links to cooking books and websites showing plenty of info about tomatoes, but all that would again be discarded, if we aren't convince by the many people insisting tomatoes are normal everyday thing and we can't actually make pizza in somewhat full and complete way without realizing it, few books probably won't change our mind much...

And at some point when that gets out of the range of making pizza and starts to imply that tomatoes are just a very political fruit that also doesn't exist, so everyone should drop it and find other ways to make any dish, really seems like a good time to move on from the specific topic.


As all that sets me in a position where I can't actually reply in a constructive way.
We can talk much about what was briefly mention, Giovanni work is amazing, the 5 神 are probably the most important thing(in my view) for a western person to understand how the elements work. But he views them in the context of TCM, if we apply them to Bazi much becomes clearer and even more useful... Here he is just discarded along with all the classics and most of the practitioners of any form of Five Arts today and of course, to want to get how the elements work there should be some idea they do actually work. Inner Alchemy and the Flower, also very interesting topic as we have many teachers teaching Qi Gong and Inner Alchemy in the west now, all using the 5 elements obviously. I personally very much like Mantak Chia work and been practicing the approach there for many years now. But that all in here is also just discarded as one more example of the misguided people believing in silly political things that doesn't have framework to work in...

So at that point I can't really help here. I can work a little with "does it exist", can probably work a lot with "how to make it work even better", but the idea of "it just doesn't exist, all are deluded and/or lying, lets all be constructive and just don't use it!" is just not the step of the path I can actually assist much. Not that any assistance seems sought after in this case.
 

jukkodave

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Dear Gmulii
I appreciate your comments but one has to remember that history shows to us that much of what we once considered to be correct gets overturned by better understanding and knowledge. Just because millions of people "use" a particular system does not validate it at all as we know that both Herbs and Acupuncture, even when practiced poorly, are still a better and more effective healing tool than doing nothing. We know that millions of people believed that theworld was flat or that the Sun went around the Earth. There are many reasons why various systems "work" or appear to workthat have nothing to do with the realities of the system itself. One such example if that is placebo and there are of course all the various ways that we as human beings can influence the outcome of something that have no correlation with the theory itself. Modern Medicine recognises this and requires double blind studies inorder to validate. That may not necesarily be applicable to TCM but there are other known methods of evaluating the effectiveness of something which eliminate most of the undue influences that might occur.
I appreciate that it can be difficult to realise and let go of such a deeply entrenched "theory" such as 5E. I was trained initially in 5E, stems and branches and so have experience of using and not using them. It was very difficult for me personally to let go of those theories, but the discrepancies and contradictions are simply to obvious to ignore, 5 simply does not go into 12, one has to artificially manipulate the 12 to enable 5 to exist, the origins of 5 began with the 5th at the centre and not as is used now as one of 5 around a wheel, it is imply inconceivable that there is any relevance in a system such as 5E which allows each element to act directly in every possible way with every other element, as such a system has no points of discrimination. The definitions of how the universe is divided into 5 simply does not work, we dont have 5 colours, five planets and so on, that may have been all that was known about thousands of years ago but we now know better so why are we hanging on to something that we know not to be accurate. My own experience was that trying to get everything to "fit" into 5E theiry was detracting from the real presentation and that real presentation could be better evaluated by an understanding of all 12 Zang Fu, by a good knowledge of the actual actions of the points and by an improved understanding of Yin and Yang and how those 2 fundamental "things" actually move from one to the other and within the body. When I stripped everything back to those basics, when I forced myself to question what I had been taught, when I forced myself to be ina position where I said that I didnt know and so had to be open to learning those basics the insights were clear and obvious and the results of my treatments went from more than adequate to astonishingly effective. I have seen clients that I treated in a single or twice treatment that have remained symptom free of the reasin they came to see me. Not only did I never have such results when I was using 5E but it very quickly got to the point that those clientsthat had been seeing a very good and well established 5E Acupuncturist were coming to see me and instead of having months and months of treatments it was taking one or two treatments to resolve their problems. So not only can I speak from a theoretical viewpoint but I can speak from personal experience. I have been discussing this very issue for more than 30 years and as yet no one has ever come up with a rational or coherent argument and in the end resorts to that lots of people use it, they have to ignore the historical arguments that 5E came into being for a politically motivated reason, they have to ignore the inconsistencies in the Classics and the facts that 5 does not go into 12, nor is it a derivation of yin and Yang. They have to ginore that the Chinese Clock is completely irrational and simply does not work.

I agree that Giovannis works are amazing but he was so tied into the concepts of 5E that he could not see beyond that framework. He never could see that his descriptions were actually contradicting the theory that he was so reliant on. For example he recognised that Shen can manifest in any of the Zang Fu, so was not "tied" to the Heart on the way that the Classics suggest.

I came across this Yi Forum in the hope that someone caould provide a different perspective on how and why 5E might be relevant. But it seems that the contradictions that are inherent in trying to fit 5 into 12 are just as prevelant in trying to fit 5 into 8 or 64. 5 simply doesnt "fit" into the Trigrams in any coherent or rational way. That is assuming that Trigrams have any more importance or relevance than any other subdivision of a Hexagram and of course if a Trigram is relevant then we have to realise that not only do we have an upper and lower Trigram but we also have the Trigram of lines 2,3 and 4 and the Trigram of 3,4 and 5 to consider. We cannot be constrained just because one person made a suggestion thousands of year ago that this is how the Yi works. Such a reliance on one person view with little or no validaton, that makes little sense anyway would be a rather foolish thing for anyone to do, but for some reason that is exactly what we seem inclined to do with the Yi.

If there is a rational and coherent argument as to how and why 5E fits into the Trigrams I am still waiting to hear it. I know that 5 does not go into 12, neither methematically nor in practice does it work, I know that the Chinese Clock of how Meridian flow occurs is an artificial contrivance and is simply not accurate. If any of these things actually worked someone would be able to present a clear and rational argument, that would rely on something other than it must be right because lots of people do it and use it.

We have to look at the history of how and why the "classics" were written. That reveals that the inclusion of 5E into TCM was a largely political one. If there was any coherent rationality to the theory of 5E it would be easy to explain, but a logical and rational examination of the theory shows that it has no such qualitiesnthat can be explained in a coherent or rational way. We are expected to "follow" the Classics when they are full of contradictions and inconsistencies though why would we even be inclined to elevate books thousands of years old to such positions of authority when they have so many flaws is a mystery.
 

Gmulii

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Its all just movement, though. So how does 5 fit in 12...

Lets check the elements, they aren't that important by itself, though, they are much more important as a link to the branches and stems.

In short as you know its just movement, different ways to call the ways Yin and Yang interact, nothing much by itself.

Yin turning to Yang - Wood.
Yang turning to Yin - Metal.
Yang at its peak - Fire.
Ying at its lowest point- Water.
All guided by the Earth.


Then we look at the day... At the Equinox we have it perfectly fit.

images

Sunrise - Wood. Mao Rabbit branch. The light in the day is starting to increase. Yang is increasing.
Noon - Fire. Wu Horse branch. The light in the day is at its peak(higher place of the Sun during the day).
Sunset - Metal. You Rooster branch. The light in the day is starting to decrease. Yin is increasing.
Midnight - Water. Zi Rat branch. The light is at its lowest.

All movement of Yin and Yang. And in each step of the movement we find different Images playing with each other and we call with a name of element/phase.

The Earth is at the end of each elemental branch to take it in storage deep within itself. And to release it when it is needed again.
And each of them are also initiated in the branch before them, that being Yin Tiger for wood etc.

So in that way we have the 3 months/branches of wood:
Yin Tiger Yang Wood > Mao Rabbit Yin Wood > Chen Dragon Yang Earth.

In that way all there is is:

Yang Wood > Yin Wood > Yang Earth
Then:
Yin Fire> Yang Fire > Yin Earth > Yang Metal>Yin Metal>Yang Earth > Yin Water > Yang Water > Yin Earth > ...

And keeps on rotating from Yang to Yin through the elements time and time again in nature.
And the earth is vital, as if the wood isn't taken away the new season can not start.

So we have just a movement of Yang and Yin. With the light of the Sun each day, we call each of the steps of interacting of Yin and Yang as a "element" or a "phase". But it is just their movement it isn't artificial system, we can see that everywhere in nature and our lives.

And then again during the year.
Autumn Equinox - Metal. You Rooster branch. The light in the year is starting to decrease. The day is getting shorter. Night is increasing. Yin is increasing.
Winter Solstice - Water. Zi Rat branch. The light is at its lowest.
Spring Equinox- Wood Mao Rabbit branch. The light in the year is starting to increase. Day is getting bigger. Yang is increasing.
Summer Solstice- Fire. Wu Horse branch. The light in the year is at its peak(longest day).


All of them are initiated in the branch below them and they are taken by the Earth.

As each of the elements are taken by the Earth at its end in storage, that means we will have 4 earths and we will have 2 of each of the other elements following the movement of the light, be that during the year, day or other process in nature on that level. That completing at 12 earthly branches.

Is it made up... Its words that we give for processes we see in nature. But when we give them words and we figure out we can assign them Images turns out much opens up. We can view that as the same processes in someones live(bazi) or in someones body(TCM) or as an answer to a question(Yi Jing) etc.

I don't know if I'm able to explain it well, as you know its vast amounts of info and I don't know what part is missing to make it all fit. But it does eventually. If you agree Yin and Yang do interact with each other and flow into each other, then you already are using the 5 elements, as that is all they are. Its just words for the 5 main ways they interact and flow into each other, but as soon as we recognize that 5 ways we also can use the connection with the branches. And the branches are just Yin/Yang during the year/day etc.

I know most members in forums don't enjoy long explanation. And I don't know how much of these you already know... So it may have been useless post, but we talk so much about Yin and Yang and the 5 elements, it does seem nice to remind again that the 5 elements are just different words/phases/states of that same Yin/Yang flow.
 
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legume

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I would point out that Giovanni Maciocia's works are based upon the concept of 5E, so it would be surprising if he said anything to the contrary.

i guess my point is that, as he wrote many fundamental textbooks on the topic of TCM as a whole, it would be ignorant of him to discard 5 elements theory (if he did, his work most likely wouldn't be considered amazing anymore)...

Have you ever though about how the correlation between "solid" and "hollow" ever came about and how the Lungs might be considered a solid organ, when they contain nothing but air, and for half the time not even that much air, so they are really rather empty. The designations of such things derived from the relationships of the 12 organs, one to the other, ther really is no such thing as Zang and Fu in the manner that we are "taught" and despite the inclination in the TCM Classics to put the Zang as rather more important than the Fu, when you take away the 5E concept you quickly realise that all 12 organs are equally important and each relies on all the others for their proper functioning.

yes :D i had a chance to see body worlds exhibit (and felt quite disgusted tbh) but one particular thing that stuck in my mind was how amazingly complex and interwoven lungs circulatory system is. beautiful actually. such network in itself even though filigree, appears quite solid (dark, has no opening thus no light) and so does the rest of lungs as a full organ (simple google search for an image would suffice to establish that), which is what makes them Yin (more internal, responsible for transformation, together with other regulatory zang organs - liver, heart, spleen plus kidneys, and even through the lens of western anatomy we can see they are actually placed somehow deeper within the body, as if more protected). this is what differentiates them from Yang of fu organs, which in comparison all undeniably have "light", that is are open to take in, pass on and secrete something... the zang fu division is purely related to yin / yang dychotomy and they each have own pair. as to how 5 elements come into it - to me the theory fits perfectly with organs relationships, one can study it and follow how it connects, so don't see a need to disprove it as the extra knowledge served me well so far.

btw, now that i think more about lung function, as it's indeed more of both natures - transporting and transforming, i'm guessing if it's to do with it being part of triple heater, which in tself is part of golden flower alchemy (at the bottom - kidneys have essence and are yin, stomach in the middle is the boiling pot, while lungs carry the corporeal soul up and down). it's worth to mention that TCM organs are not equal to western medicine organs, but are still considered more of energy centers of the body rather than the organ itself (although on an almost physical level) and to make that distinction TCM often uses "kidney" or "lung" instead of the plural. apologies if this is already off topic.


Because 5E has no coherent foundation in any framework that seem to be those that exist in just about any civilisation I consider that 5E is such a crutch. Fundamentally ther is nothing that cannot be understood with proper understanding of the two fundamentals of Yin and Yang and their initial actions, that gives us 4. 4 gives us 8 and 12 and 8 gives us 64. Both 12 and 64 "reduce" to the common denominator of 4 which we know is a derivation of 2. The difficulty that I have with the Yi is that although there is movement within the 64 there is nothing in the derivation from 2 to 4 to 8 to 64 which provides a rational coherent explanation of "why" there is movement.

well, i'd argue that since 5e exists in this civilisation, and many other civilisations (i know at least of one african ethnic group called dagara using 5e in their practice) have similar elements (ayruveda also uses 5, with eather instead of metal and air instead of wood), so it's safe to say the concept of 5 is firmly rooted at least in the East.

i don't know if such rational coherent explanation exists. my take is that it's in finding golden mean between rational and irrational that we might get some answers or at least some clarity?

still, if you're insterested in math, and from yin and yang arrive at 4, then you can easily imagine world in 2d and form a square. a 3x3 magic square (with a 5 always in the center, as to why i provide a video in the link further) will give you all digits needed to recognise all its 8 possible symmetries and lead you to something called dihedral group of order 8 but i don't understand abstract algebra or algebra or math, really, for that matter :rofl:

but for me, personally, just by looking at Lo Shu square i deduce it's the 5 in the center directing the other 8 forces...

maybe i'm wrong, but so far using 5e in my I Ching readings, especially when asking about my body or my health, has been only helpful, rather than distractive. even if the Chinese had problems agreeing on the relationship between the elements and bagua themselves :p but i also think it's an interesting question to pose and maybe write a thesis on the topic of the theory's application in acupuncture (not the whole TCM though, because as said, too many other effective TCM treatments depend on wu xing). who knows, could be that when working strategically on points and with sufficient understanding of meridians and anatomy acupuncture can be equally or more successful and so easier to learn and more accessible overall ;)
 

jukkodave

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Yin turning to Yang - Wood.
Yang turning to Yin - Metal.
Yang at its peak - Fire.
Ying at its lowest point- Water.
All guided by the Earth.

But this is of course what I have been saying, that there a 4 elements, you can call them wood, metal, fire and water or anything else you like as the naming doesnt changs anything, then those 4 "ALL" guided by something that became called the Earth. That added something is the political addition that was made thousands of years ago. There is then no consistency with that concept of a 5th element at the "centre" and the next image you display, that of 12 in a circle, as the 4 individual elements, which can be shown to be displayed in a circle, have to be shown with the 5th "element" at the centre, it being the only way to connect to "all" of the 4. So we cannot coherently jump from a non circular dimension with 4 surrounding a fifth and then use the same criteria with 12 in a circle. That jump makes no coherent or rational sense.
One problem with the "reliance" on the 5th element to store and release is that the "movement " of Yin and Yang that I was referring to has within it all the storage and release one can imagine, it is after all the action of storage and release that helps us understand how Yin and Yang interact and move one into the other. Such a reliance and assignation of a 5th element to such an important aspect of Yin and Yang as storage and release would place place such an "element" with far greater importance than any of the other elements and that makes no coherent or rational sense at all.
I agree of course that elements are just difference phases/states of the same Yin/Yang flow, but that doesnt mean that there is anything in what you have described that provides a rational and coherent reason as to why 5 is considered important. One couldin fact just as easily derive a system of 7, 9, 11 and, using the kind of arguments that you present, and be able to "show" that 7, 9 or 11 are important. In fact there are all sorts of reasons why many of the "odd" numbers are important but nothing in any of that "importance" gives rise to any rational and coherent explanation of why a "system" based on 5 is important enough to be prescribed as belonging to the fundamental elements themselves.
So yes I do agree that "Yin and Yang do interact with each other and flow into each other" but that doesnt need a 5E "theory" to be able to understand that. In fact the opposite happens, as trying to "fit" the fundamental "duality" that is Yin and Yang, into a system that is not even divisible by two creates all sortsof confusions that disappear when one reverts to the fundamentals of Yin and Yang and the understanding of how they actually flow and interact with each other. You will know of course that the "phases" require that the 5 elements, in order to "interact" with each other have to be arranged in a circle, and that arrangement gives that each of the elements "flows" into all of the others, which is of course impossible as without the tensions, that are exhibited in how Yin and Yang flow, there are no interactions or dynamics. And how did the image of 4 elements with the "all" connectinga 5th- at the centre- ever become distorted to create 5 which are equal to each other. You will of course know that ther has to be an "extra " part of one of the elements " to make it work. Again no rational or coherent arguments to explain how 5 is relevant as an elemental concept.

One could of course quote endlessly from the existing "theory" and do so almost endlessly, there are volumes and volumes about the "theories" and even more volumes that rely on the theory of 5E to justify them, but non of them make any attempt to address how and why we could ever generate a system that has 5 Elements, non of them address the many contradictions or the lack of coherence or rationality and non of them attempt to address the political situation in China thousands of years ago, when the Classics that we rely on so heavily were written, and the likelyhood that 5E "theory was a contrived presentation designed for the purposes and advantages of those in power. Non of them attempt to show that there is nothing in 5E that cannot be better explained by a sound understanding of Yin and Yang and how one moves and interacts into and with the other. That is an important point, that 5E adds nothing to what is better explained by fundamentals of Yin and Yang and how they interact, as yin and Yang without "movement" are nothing at all and one of the doubts I have about the interpretations of Hexagram 1 and Hexagram 2. lets d"o some very simple, but crucially important maths to explain this. We start off with just two principles Yin and Yang, they are equal one to the other, what happens with the first transformation, the initial "movement, is that for the first time we have a difference in how Yin and Yang manifest. We have two different presentations that reflect for the first time a difference in the relationship between Yin and Yang, one that appear that Yang is in the ascendant and one that appears that Yin is in the ascendant. Each presentation has two variations, one that is a true presentation and one that only appears to be a particular way. If we take the two presentation that appear to be more Yang we find that one is actually more Yang and the Yin is sufficient, we could say the Yang part is in excess, the other part the Yang is not in escess but the Yin is reduced and so it appears that the Yang is greater than the Yin. The same applies to the appearance that Yin is greater than the Yang. These 4 representations of "relationships between Yin and Yang are fundamental to any understanding of Chinese Medicine and are what have been described as the 4 "elements" thoughout the worlds history. I will leave it up to you to decide how and why the forst two lines of a Hexagram might be depicted by this findamental basic. It is obvious that 2 unbroken lines are true Yang and two broken lines true Yin, but deciding which combination should be taken to represent that which appears to be more Yang than Yin and which combination should be taken to represent that which appears to be more Yin than Yang is perhaps the most important step of all. It is from that understanding that the understanding of the Trigrams comes and the understanding and the ability to evaluate if the various "interpretations" ascribed to the Trigrams, and the order that they take, has any validity or not. We continue that process again and again until we have "transformed to arrive at 64 variations. There is one crucial and important thing to realise from the very first transfromation from 2 to 4, that non of the 4 is totally any of the initial two. The resultant 64 do not contain any exact copies of the preceding level of transformation. After 5 iterations of the intitial Yin/ Yang principles neither Yin nor yang in its fundamental form remains, in fact it is 5 iterations away from that fundametal form. Therefore it is simply not accurate to "interpret" a Hexagram that has all unbroken lines as being the "yang" of the Hexagram. Once we realise how the 64 arise we can see that the interpretations that have been made historically about Hexagrams 1 and 2 cannot be correct, nor can many of the interpreations of how the Hexagrams should be ordered or paired be correct. Only when we really understand which Bi-gram results in the appearance of being more Yang and which appears to be more Yin can we work out the next step and know what order the Trigrams should take.

I am more than aware of the theories of 5E, stems and branches, but the repitition of theories that have no apparent rational coherence does nothing to address the questions of how and why 5E ever came into existence or if there is any rational or coherent reasons for its existence. The how and why were one of the reasons why I had to ask myself the very difficult questions so many years ago that made me question the vast majority of what I had been taught, the inconsistencies and contradictions in the Classics another and the lack of any rational or coherence arguments to support such a numerical classification as is used in 5E. Those are all important considerations if we are to use anything that presents as a "pattern". Does the pattern fit, is it coherent. Therein lies a basic problem with the pattern of 5E, the pattern doesnot fit into any other pattern and only if one throws out all the patterns does 5 work as a pattern itself, but then if one throws out the rest of the patterns what reason is there to keep the pattern if 5. What is there really in the "patterns" of 5 that can be coherently and rationaly connected to 8 or 12. There isnt any coherent or rational connections and repeating the details of a "theory" that has not been rationlay justified si no way to validate it at all.

All the best
 
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i just asked I Ching "how does the 5 elements theory fit in with the trigrams?" and got 11 uc :D
i bet everyone would get a different answer depending on their viewpoint.
 

jukkodave

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Hi Legume
As regards Giovanni's works, you could only consider them "fundamental" if and when they are proved to be accurate. Giovanni himslef acknowledged the many contradictions in the Classics and recognised that the Classics in many way only gave a part of the picture. His works are certainly an important starting point and they do give a sound foundation on which to succesfully practice TCM but we have to remember that while TCM in itself is a successful therapy, that a large part of that is down to the recpient. It is known that even needling in the worng point produces a therapeutic effect, even giving a herb that is not the most most suited for the condition pridices a therapeutic effect.
At the end of the day I have two major considerations, I know from my own practice that when I dropped the 5E that my treatements improved dramatically, they were more effective, laster longer and required considerable less treatments to have an benefit, in many cases it only took one or two treatments and the person never had the problem again. I never had that kind of success when I used 5E, nor do I know anyone that practices 5E have that kind of consistent success. Everyone hits the mark now and again of course but if we are honest with ourselves, andset the bar really high and ask ourselves how many patients are completely cured from the treatment the answer in most cases is not as goos as we might like to think. So I know the difference in real practice. The second reason is that 5E arrived on the scene as most likely part of a political action andthe last reason is that it is completely incoherent and irrational, the allocations ascribed to each of the "elements" might have made sense 2000 years ago but we know better now and the original derivation of 5 is with one of the 5 at the centre connecting the other 4 together. You mention Ayurvedic, that to has one of the elements connecting the other 4 together. How then do we get from a group of 4 with a 5th at the centre connecting all the others together to a "theory" where the 5 are presented and used as "phases" where all are presented equally in a circle.
I have no problem with a sytem of 4 that places something at the centre in order to link it all together, but that is not what 5E theory does, it places all 5 as being equal and requires all 5 to be present and equal for the "phases" to work. Having 4 with a linking at the centre is not a "system. It may identify something in us that is fundamental to being a human being that allows us to comprehend and manipulate the 4, but that does not make it part of the 4. We should be looking to ourselves to understand what the central, connecting part is that each of us contain, rather than generating much confusion by "interpretating" the part of us that is capable of comprehending what the 4 are as an equal addition to the for. Something that links one thing to another does not become part of that thing that it links, though that is what has happened with 5E theory.
5 does exist in other cultures for the very simple reason that if one looks at the externals of the body it appears that we have 5 senses. We certainly have 5 obvious physical senses nut it should be obvious to anyone that if that were the only sense we had we would have no ability to connect with the universe at large and there would be no such thing as the Yi or any other sort of divination as without the "conections" that our non physical senses arecapable of we would know of nothing beyond those 5 senses. I dont think that examples of cultures that are tied and limited to only the ohysical domain is a particulay sound argument.

I am sorry to say that your arguments as to why organs are determined as Zang or Fu makes no sense. In order for an argument to be coherent it has to be consistent. So if on one hand you are evaluating an organ by how deep or dark or protected that has to be consitent thoughout all of the Zang Fu. Just taking the Lungs, they are hardly deep or protected, they take in substance from the outside with every breath, so are incredibly vulnerable. The Gall Bladder is, in contrast, incredibly well protected.

I don't know if such rational coherent explanation exists. my take is that it's in finding golden mean between rational and irrational that we might get some answers or at least some clarity?

You could easil substitute Yin and Yang for irrational and irrational, or indeed for any of the fundamental dichotomies that humans face and experience. It is those very action fo trying to find a "golden mean" between and including those dichotomies that enables one to ask the very questions as to why and how things work, whether that is Chines Medicine, the Yi, 5E theory or any of the other patterns that we have and use in the owrld today. It is the very investigation of those dichotomies that reveals if the patterns that we use are discovered or created. Bad news for all 5E fans, it was created. Yin and Yang on the other hand were discovered.

Yes I am very interested in Maths, it was one of my degree subjects. The problem I have with your argument is that we dont live in a 2D world, we live ina 3d world and while the simplifications that can be made by such patterns as show in Dihedral groups that really does nothing to "explain"v the 3d world we live in. A large part of Mathematics is really little more than playing with numbers, but we have to realise that we created the numbers patterns to begin with and all we are seeing, in a lot of cases are the pattens within the system theat we created in the first place. There is a lot around nowadays about various number pattrns that are supposed to reveal the inner working so fht universe, but they are reliant on using a particular number base and the pattrns that they consider so important evapriate if one uses a different base. We commonly use Base 10 and so we see the patterns of base 1o but that only gives us "insight" into the patterns of Base 10 not into the universe itself. We ahve to be able to dicriminate what is useful in maths at what is not. But maths is not that "useful" in a real 3d world, mathermatics might be able to map out all sorts things and even use it to send objects to distant planets , but it has to do in with complex extrapolations if 2d framewirks, mathematics has no idea how to model even a simple 3 body problem. Going back to your golden mean I would point out that one of the problems with emaths attempts to "describe" the world succesfully is that it relies on the existence of an equals sign, which somly does not exist in the real world. In the real world there is no such thing as something that equals something else, it may be relative or ropeortional to something else but in the real 3d world the equals sign does not actually exist. On the other hand Maths is incredible as it is capable of discting the world in such a way that we are able to create fantastic technology.

As to the use of Wu Xing in other aspects of TCM. That is the same question. why! Is there any more understanding of how a herb works because of knowledge of the 5E. Absolutley not. I had the privilege of working with an incredible Herbal Master, one thing that he liked to do was to take a single herb, make a tea and present it to his students who had no knowledge of what herb had been prepared. The astonishing thing was that it didnt matter if anyone had any "knowledge " of herbs or anything else for that matter, the answers that everyone wrote down, quietly and with no discussion were astonishingly similar in how people experienced the herbs to be working. Fir me the most remarkable thing was that everyone described how the herbs worked in TCM terms, where the were directed, if they were warming or energising, the verybasics of how the principles of Ying and Yang are differentiated in TCM. How could know anything about 5e improve on such accuracy that we have wthin us. That is the 5th element, that is our potential and ability to comprehend and understand that ties it all together. We have in us the 5th element such that we can "know" the workings of Yin and Yang, through the mechanisms and medium of the 4 elemets. It is only that someone either forget what the real meaning and finction of the 5th element was, or tried to twist it to serve to their advantage that we have lost the real meaning of what the 5th "element " is. But as humans we dont like emptyness and try to fill in the gaps with whatever we can even if it makes no sense at all and so we contrived a 5E theory to try to fill in the gaps in our understanding and in doing so missed the message that was and is in the 5th element -know it for yourself.

As regards Acupuncture being succesful, I assume you mean without the use if 5E, it already is, my experience and of those that feel inclined to rely more on the findamntals of Yin and Yang rather than the concepts of 5E is that approach is significantly more effective than using a system reliant on 5E. It is not as pretty and doesnt have all sorts of complexity and diagrams, thera is nothing fancy about no 5E TCM at all, and it is incridibly difficult as one has no crutches of complex theories to rely on and one has to be sure that one really knows the functions of the organs and the actions of the points in order to be able to accurately diagnise and treat. So it is a far from easy path to take, it is much easier to "stick" with a 5E theory that has an "answer " for just about everything.
 

Gmulii

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and that makes no coherent or rational sense at all.

This are how the process in nature works. We use the way that is viewed and we can read destiny charts or answer a question etc. Rational sense from western perspective isn't important factor in that. Although for me it makes perfect sense, its just vast and as I said I don't know what parts you are missing, so it doesn't fit.

As far as coherency is concern, it is coherent but to fully see that you need much more then TCM and Yi Jing. As often is said you need QMDJ to understand the stems, you need WWG to understand the branches, you need Mei Hua to get the Trigrams and Yi Jing the way its viewed here to understand the Hexagrams in relation to a question. Then Xuan Kong Da Gua, to understand how the Qi moves through space, Xuan Kong Fei Xing to understand how Qi settles through enclosed space and many more...

They complete each other and when one of them seems to have moved out of balance, we can see that balance coming from another one. And all is coherent. And all makes sense.
But it needs many years of confusion for the western mind to get to the light in it all often.

Of course, if someone is only interesting in acupuncture that doesn't matter much. But if someone is interested in Yi Jing, that does as all that is in every answer people get, its just ignored as people don't know how to read it often.
 

jukkodave

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My dear Gmulii, I am afraid that you are missing the point. QMDJ, WWG and the rerst are all dependent on the concepts in the "theory" of 5E. If 5E is not right then the rest of the the things that you rely on make no sense in terms of a position that supports 5E theory.
Coherence is when everything resonates together and is balanced, in a theory, such as the 5E it is when that theory resonates with other theories. The advantage of using Chinese Medicine as the yardstick with which to measure if 5E resonates or not is that Chineses Medicine is a practical measure that has been tested and with which we have clear evidence as to what works and what doesnt work. By that measure there is no evidence that 5E works. I know TCM practioners that use 5E and spend months treating a person, and someone that does not use 5E comes along and in only a few sessions the person has no need for further treatments. One only has to look at some of the "manipulations" that have had to occur to make 5E "fit" into TCM, just one example, the Kidney Channel has to twist on itself just to ensure that the "elements" run in the correct order, but when one "feels" the Channel one finds no twisting at all, the Channels run straight and true.
Rational is when it makes logical sense, and so the questions that I have asked, reveal that there is no rationality in 5E, which I have to note that you have not even attempted to address in any sort of way at all. How did 5E theory transform from having a 5th element at the centre, where it connects all of the other 4, to one where the 5th becomes intergrated into an equal part of the 4; how does 5 divide into 8 or 12, how does the 2 of Yin and Yang "fit" into 5, how does the disection of the world into 5 make sense in todays world when we now know that there are more than 5 colours, more than 5 planets, and most of the other allocations into 5 either make no sense or have been shown to be outdated by better knowledge. Of course you can "create" all sorts of explanations but if it is not rational if it is not coherent it really doesnt address the basic question or provide any support of what you belive in.
What you are describing is a "belief", which may take "western " minds longer to believe in than those raised in the belief that 5E has validity. But that has nothing to do with whether something is accurate or correct or not and history shows us that human beings are extremely prone to believing all sorts of things that make little rational or coherent sense. In fact Psychology shows that as human beings we are not only prone to creating a world that makes little sense but are even more prone to not wanting to let go of our beliefs, even when that is in the face of indisputable evidence. The only way beyond those limitations is to be brutally honest withourselves and with each other. I know from personal experience that "letting go " of what one believes in is a very difficult and challenging thing to do. I was trained in 5E, I believed in 5E, but things just didnt make sense, the contradictions in the Classics made no sense, I needed to know if, how and why, the 5E that I was so reliant on worked. I had to go back to basics in all sorts of ways, I applied logical principles of investigation and questioned everything, my knowledge of TCM improved as a consequence and I was then able to "experiment" in treating without using 5E, the results were astonishing, 5E created a confusion in treatements that offered nothing and only meant that clients were having to come back frequently. Yes 5E TCM did work, and my clients were difinitely improving, but it was incredibly slow when compared to treating without using 5E at all. That was more than 30 years ago and in that time I have had many conversations with all sorts of TCM Practioners and not one of them has been able to adress the contradictions or the lack of coherence and rationality, despite the evidence that thos that dont use 5E in their practices get better, faster and longer lasting results. They weresimply unable to let go of their precious beliefs.
As this is a forum for the Yi I was hopeful that some would have the knowledge and the courage to address and respond to the contradictions that I have highlighted. At the end of the day my "journey" that led to my dropping all use of 5E in clinical practice also led me to the understanding that there is always likely to be a pearl of wisdom in any belief. I havent yet found what that pearl in 5E might be and I was hopeful that somone that had explored the Yi might have come across something that made sense of how and why 5E came into existence as a system, and even if it doesnt stand up to scrutiny as a sytem that can be used in real and practical terms there might be something prescious to be gained from knowing what that " pearl "is. But given that no one on the forum seems willing or able to address the rather challenging and difficult questions I am asking I am beginning to think that perhaps there are no pearls at all and the evidence that 5E is little more than a contrivance is growing stronger by the day.
As human beings we do like patterns and so we see that we have 5 senses, that we have 5 fingers and toes and we try to make "sense" of it. Unfortuantely it is obvious that theses are the limitations of a part of the physical domain and that it is equally obvious that we have more than 5 actual sense, or we would not be able to consult the Yi and in purely physical terms TCM shows that there is something much more than what we know with our 5 senses. The information in that just reveals that 5 is a number that limits us to how those many thousands of years ago, that had little or no knowledge of the understanding that we had now were inclined to see the world. A little bit of knowledge and common sense makes it clear that those of that time that knew there was something beyond the senses were never going to be able to convince the masses of that without a means to describe it in a way they might understand, incomes the 5E theory and the fact that it placed the ruler at the centre must have been a wonderful bonus. I see nothing that shows that 5E is a very complicated contrivance, I dont see anything that can explain it properly in any sort of logical, coherent or rational way, I only see the repititions of lots of beliefs and not even any attempt to address the obvious contradictions and discrepancies. I have had taht for more than 30 years from those in TCM I was hoping that those involvedl with the Yi, because the Yi requires that we ask questions, would be more willing to engage in real discussion about the Yi. The possibility of course is that if 5E is not valid then our understanding of the Yi has to change, that can only be for the better and our use if the Yi would improve. I was hoping that there would those in the Yi community that would welcome such a challenge to discover the truth, one way or the other. If someone comes along and is able to show me that 5E has validity and works then I can take that back to TCM and try to figure out why the current application of 5E doent work, how 5E could be propelry incorporated into TCM,and that would of course be of great benefit to all who had treatments with TCM.
In asking for coherence and rationality I am asking for evidence and rational and logical arguments.
I am sorry to say but repeating what you "believe" and ignoring the contradictions that I am repeatedly highlighting really does nothing to address the very basic questions of how and why 5E can be considered to have any validity when there is no ration or coherent arguments to support it and no evidence to support its existence as a "theory" and lots of evidence to show that the things that we pften use 5E for , such as Medicine, works significantly better when we dont use 5E at all.
 

my_key

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I asked " How does 5 elements link to Yi Jing? " Answer Hex 44 unchanging - Coupling / Coming to meet.

Image:
Under heaven , wind
The image of COMING TO MEET
Thus does the prince act when disseminating his commands
And proclaiming them to the four quarters of heaven

Wilhelm......Heaven is far from the things of earth, but it sets them in motion by means of the wind. The ruler is far from his people, but he sets them in motion by means of his commands and decrees.

So there you have it :)
 

jukkodave

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Hi My_key
The repitition of what is in the Yi does nothing to "explain" how the 5E relates to the Yi.

But actually you have both highlighted and compounded the confusion, as in quoting from the Hexagram you are making reference to the attributes of a Trigram. The question is, not only how do 5E relate to the Yi in general, but also how do 5E relate to Trigrams. That is the question that really has been at the heart of the thread anyway as it is all supposedly connected. It just seems that no one has any real idea how and why that might be.

I think we all know what the texts say, the question is why and how, and are there any coherent and rational "explanations" of why 5E has any correlation with the Yi and/or the Trigrams.

At its most basic level 5 simply does not divide (resonate) with 8 or 64, nor does it divide and resonate coherently with the 12 of Chineses Medicine, nor any combination of the Extra Meridians.
The history suggests that the importance of 5 was originally an entirely different structure, which placed the "5th" element at the centre of 4 fundamental forces, and its role then was to allow communication from one to the other. That would be absolutely fine, as in essence it would not change the fact that there were 4 elements, and the 5th is just another part of the myriad things and would assume no more significance in regard the the fundamentals than any other part might assume, and then everything remains coherently in resonance and divides beautifully, but something changed in the history of the 5E and it somehow became a concept of phases, where each phase has an equal part of influence, and then the entire concept changes and we end up with all the inconsistencies that 5E presents.

So then there is the question of how and why the new 5E "theory" has any validity, where the 5th no longer links the other 4 but has usurped it position as the emissary, that links the others together in a way the we humans might be able to comprehend, and become a "master" in its own right. How did that elaboration and elevation happen, where is the logic, where is the evidence, where are the rational and coherent arguments for how and why that is even possible as a concept or theroy, let alone something that can be used in practice, whether that is in terms of divination or medically.

Then there is the question of how the Trigrams were composed. Is it valid to even equate them with a 5E thoery that seems impossible for anyone to validate or even present a coherent possibile argument. How would someone go about trying to explain the various notions of how the Trigrams are ordered in terms of their directions, their qualities or how they transfrom one into the other, especially when are more than one "interpretation " of how they might be laid out and the attributes they might have, so it is clear that we cannot be sure of what the Trigrams are supposedly representing. The comes the tricky question of do we "read" then fom bottom to top, as we do in a Hexagram, or do we read them form top to bottom. In one framework the bottom line establishes how the other lines act, in another framework the final expression of the top line is perhaps more relevant.

Of course the concept of the Trigrams may well be nothing more that one commentators interpretation and the top and botttom Trigrams may have no more importance than the other Trigrams within the Hexagram, the Bigrams in the Hexagram or the lines themselves. It would seem more logical that an understanding of how and why a line in a particular place and its relationships with the others would ssem more fundamental than a Trigram might be.
But this brings forth the important question of whether the Yi was discovered or if it was a contrived creation. If it was simply a contrivance then it really wouldnt matter, there would be nothing fundamental nor important about the Yi and it really wouldnt matter if we understood it or not, and all we would be doing would be discussing matters of total triviality, however, if the Yi was discovered then that would be that it was always in existence, was fundamental, gave insight into ourselves and the Universe, was of great value, and then it becomes incredibly important that we are accurate and correct in our understanding of how and why everything links together. If the Yiiwas discovered then it is another way of describing the fundamentals that consitute life and so would resonate, not only within itself but also with other descriptions of the fundamentals such as Chines Medicine.
We must bear in mind that it is entirely possible to create and contrive a form of divination that will provide the "answers" to most of our questions and only if the attributes of the Yi were not only a contirvance but an insight and a tool into that which lies deeper in us. Only if the Yi was a discovery could it be capable of illuminating the "truth" of us as human beings. So the question of how and why it all links together and if there is any coherent rationality is of the upmost importance to those of us that consider the Yi to be more than just another game of divination that has little more importance than a parlour game. I consider that it is far more imprtant, that the insights and messages that are potentially ther within the Yi are of incredible value. But is seems to me that we have lost sight of the fundamntals, that we have no way of measuring, evaluating what is real and of value and what is not, that we have become so reliant on the "commentaries" that we no longer have the insight within ourselves to know the fundamental buiding blocks that enabled the discovery of the Yi in the first place. Perhaps the most obvious of the inconsistencies is reagrding 5E and the Trigrams.

5E, Trigrams, Hexagrams, all supposedly linked together. So where are the rational, coherent arguments that might explain how and why they are linked in any way at all.

I am afraid that quoting something that relied on the "theory" in the first place, is no validation that the theory is correct in any way, shape of from whatsover.
 

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Hi My_key
The repitition of what is in the Yi does nothing to "explain" how the 5E relates to the Yi.


5E, Trigrams, Hexagrams, all supposedly linked together. So where are the rational, coherent arguments that might explain how and why they are linked in any way at all.

I am afraid that quoting something that relied on the "theory" in the first place, is no validation that the theory is correct in any way, shape of from whatsover.

Wilhelm's interpretation can by some be seen to be giving an answer, by others it is not enough information. Sometimes when things become too mixed and confusing it can help to step back and look at things differently; try to simplify. The role of a 'seeker' can be difficult to carry off and one way I have found to step forward is to step back and ponder whether I am asking the right questions. Other questions may have simpler answers that can be found and then over time build to give insights into the burning question.

From the length of your posts this is clearly an enquiry you are passionate about and something that is a wide-ranging and burning issue that you want / need to understand, however I am not able to help you in your quest other than what I have posted here.

Good Luck
 
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jukkodave

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Thank Mi_key for being honest.
It seems that you are not alone as no one has been able to offer any coherent or rational advice.
That does present a major problem for those that do anything more than simply use the Yi for what ever reasons the want to. For those that are involved in the Yi in a deeper way it would suggest that all they would have is a "belief" in ancient texts. That would be little better than those that believed in a flat earth or that the Sun revolved around the Earth, or any of the beliefs that people used to have which rational thought and modern investigations have revealed cannot possibly be accurate.
If any one had anything other than beliefs it would seem likely that they would have presented that somewhere or the other and even if they were not responding at least one experienced and learned member of Clarity would be able to provide some references and some personal understanding and experience.

It would be bad enough if this was confined to the Yi but the same lack of being able to "explain" in any sort of way that might justify the possibility of why we have 5E and how they could actually work coherently in a system of 8 or 12 or even how the attributes that are given to them might make sense when we know that science has given us so much more information that reveals that the breaking down of the world into 5 bits in the ways suggested by 5E theory is simply not correct.

To me that really does seem to be little more than blind faith.

But thank you for your honesty.

Hopefully someone else will be able to post something to illuminate my questions. Even a stab at trying to figure it out logically would be welcome. I do find it rather strange that no one is even attempting that. Are we so far away from the truth that no one can even se possibilities to attempt that.

All the best

Dave
 

Gmulii

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It seems that you are not alone as no one has been able to offer any coherent or rational advice.
That does present a major problem for those that do anything more than simply use the Yi for what ever reasons the want to. For those that are involved in the Yi in a deeper way it would suggest that all they would have is a "belief" in ancient texts.

What about the few of us that have spend years studying just how the earthly branches mentioned above(Chou,Xu,Wei and Chen) interact in Chinese Astrology?
When they are open bringing images of inflow of an element, when they are closed bringing images of receive...

Going through hundreds(maybe thousands by now) charts and seeing that Images and relation in each of them... Without even going to other of the Five Arts like Feng shui or Inner Alchemy.

Should we give up in the 5E as well?

Rational and coherent is a very subjective ideas. In reality both doesn't mean much other then the person isn't able to make sense of something.

I can't answer the questions listed above, because they keep piling up. Usually at the start of the post I see a quesiton, think of what info we can present to explain it without going into too complicated rules of Chinese Astrology or the other system, and when some idea is formed, keep reading the rest of the post, so I can post an comment later. But in the rest of the post we have so many more questions, statements and ideas, that there is nothing to answer to at the end...

If you have 1-2 lines question I can look into it, but again - much of these would require to know a lot more of the Five Arts to understand the reply.
 

jukkodave

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Hi Gmulii
Nothing wrong with my knowledge of everything connected to 5E. Learnt it all more than 30 years ago. It is not that it diesnt even make sense. I understand it within the confines of what it is.
The problem is that it relies on classifications that we know are not relevant, we have more than 5 colours, planets, etc.
5E started with the 5th at the centre and then becomes a 5 with phases that interact with each other, and because every phase can just as easily interact with every other phase it means that one can make anything out of any thing. Stems and branches are another thing but the incorprations onto various madalities amkes no logical sense and things able to double up. In Chinese Medicine to make it "fit" there has to be two diffiernt types of fire. To make 5 "fit" into 8 or 12 it has to be distorted, that leaves it incoherent and irrational.


So if you can explain how 5 fits into 8 and 12, without repeating the very "theories " that I am questioning, but doing it with logic and rational argument then I would be very glad to hear it.
Try to exaplin the reasons behind the "clock" that suggests that the Qi flows on the Channels in a particular order, when the order doesnt even make sense in Chinese Medicine and certainly not in terms of times of the day. I dont know anyone that has ever found palpating the pulses or the points show that the energy is any different at any particular time of day.

All the best
Dave
 

Gmulii

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Fair enough, so how does 5 fit into 8 and into 12 and why does it.
This will be a long post... Again the same problem, its just too much info and going very short on each idea it seems like there isn't deeper enough reasons to be like this. While there is, all of what is mentioned here have reasons and much more extensive meaning when used in context. But no space or time for it, so lets just go over it briefly.

Well, as one practitioner of chinese astrology said some years ago "5 elements are for the novices".

They aren't as strict as they may seem and there is vast relations going on on top of that.

Of course, in this post the idea is we look into the 5 elements and try to show the inner relation and meaning all intertwined in there, the idea we won't be mentioning the 5 elements and will show they work is silly, how to prove something works without mentioning it...

So lets look at the Earth and fire.
In branches the Earth can be considered 2 types. There can be Wet Earth(Chou,Chen) and Dry Earth(Xu, Wei).

If we look at how they interact, they are very different. Wet Earth for example support metal. If we have a person that has a Metal Day Stem(considering representing themselves), then any wet Earth in their chart will be their own group. It will fully support. All Images related to it will show that, if it has images of what we call "Resource" and its in the month and we have some work related to that we can say they will work in a big organization connected to knowledge. We can also say that persons mother will have a lot of influence on them and will be supportive as well. Then we can say much, much more, but the idea is its very easy to see in practice in lives of people.
All is going great where they work in - reading is right.
They live near their mother and the relation is great - reading is right.
Knowledge is very important in their live - reading is right.

All need to be right, or the rule doesn't work and we missed something. So easy to prove, easy to see it works.

Now, dry earth makes Metal brittle. It means if they have dry earth in their elements it will still have some Images of support, but it will have its price as well.
In the higher chart, in the month that would be working for big corporation that is suffocating you, as you hate it there. You get environment from them, so salary etc., but there is price.
Again - easy to prove, easy to see.

So now, we have 2 specific types of Earth each with their own Images.
Now there is the idea the elements in the branches are closer to 6 then to 5 if we have 2 types of earth.

But wait, there is more.
Depending if a Wood Stem is rooted and has access to water we say that is live wood. That changes much. Live wood is the same everywhere, each wood showing up at any place represented the same Images as all of them. It likes fire and it can take enormous amounts of water while if we look at "dead wood" it takes very little water to start dissolving it.

So 7 elements now... But then the Wood can be only 1 of the states mentioned here, so at each time there may only be 6 elements, but one of them can shift and change...

Problem here is that to prove all that we need to look at charts. Because the logic is inverse, we don't think of something logical then take it as working, because its logical. We see how the nature operates and try to figure out the rules.

And when we get to the 5 elements, its just a simplification that helps us to read charts without knowing the details. The more we get into it, the more we see that its much more complicated and each element actually has their own relation and different states in the branches.

Another example. Fire and Dry Earth are consider having similar Images in branches/stems.
Now, does it mean we have only 4 elements?
Not really, as they have their own Images as well, we can just swap and share them in one more way knowing that.

My idea here is that in this topic we are fixing so much on the 5 elements thing... But that is just a stepping stone, the more we go into it the more we realize that its much more complicated and messy and if we use the 5 elements even at the more deeper levels of it it won't make much sense. But not because the5 elements aren't working, just because nature is encompassing a lot more then that and there is always different ways of them showing up.

But lets say 5, as there are Images related to 5 we use a lot(the 10 gods/6 relations for example), so there is idea connected to 5 as well.

How it fits into 8.
Well, lets look at the Later Heaven Arrangement and Lo Shu.

257px-Lo_Shu_3x3_magic_square.svg.png



later-heaven-sequence-bagua.png

So we have Fire(fire) on the top, we have Water(north) at the bottom. We have wood on the left(east) and we have Metal on the right(west).

We have 2 earth, one at the end of summer, one at the end of Winter. That is the same dry/wet earth as in the branches, only there its represented by 2 earthly trigrams, here its represented by 1. Why is that, because the Fire and Water here are seen as peaks of the movement and that is just different type of change.

So, how they fit we can see in QMDJ map, but I'm guessing the question is why they fit like that.

QMDJ(Qi Men Dun Jia), its a legendary warfare systems, one of the 3 ancient ones. Long story there and we have info around the forum I think. But its very respected in Asia and used in many corporations(all of these is used professionally even in the west actually).

I will post screenshot of my map, as most QMDJ practitioners are memorizing that specific relation, but everyone using QMDJ knows it as its a very important thing for telling time.

qmdj-map.png


So if you look at how it moves you can see there are Branches on each of the palaces(the most outer part). And there is 1 branch for the trigrams Zhen, Li, Dui and Kan as that is showing a pure state, something called "peach blossom".

2 for everything else.


Why is that... Well the idea here that is repeating all around the five arts is another type of change. When we have change related to the branches we use the branches, when we have it related to the Trigrams we use the Trigrams.

Similar to how you would use different type of screwdriver depending on the type of work you need done. If you always use just one it just won't always "fit".

So in this case, we have type of change that has very pure, fast and well defined peaks at the Peach Blossom branches/Trigrams, then the rest takes longer. Accumulate phase of it all is longer here and the burst at Li is much shorter. Suggesting that Li and Kan will take much less time, in hours it will be 2 hours, vs 4 hours of wood. But that is the idea, its just much more extensive peaks in this specific type of changes.

Something like riding a roller-coaster. You waited in line for hours then you had a few minutes of fun(that would be Li, not just because its higher, but because of many images connected to it), then waiting a lot again. The peaks just aren't equal to the rest of the event, so the time Fire/Li is taking in the sequence has to be shorter, no way around that.

So we have 1 fire and 1 water, as that is the peak(top) of the flow and the bottom of it. While we have the peak states of the Wood and Metal also at 1 Trigram.
Then we have only 2 earths(gen and kun) as that is enough to explain it all and they are right after the much faster/stronger/visible peaks. So they need to be only after Water and Fire Trigrams, as that is when we need to take the element in this time, the rest isn't "fast" enough to need to be taken by the Earth now.

The problem with all this is that even though it makes perfect sense for someone studying that, that has seen numerous examples with it, without actual charts we can look at, or qmdj maps or anything really its difficult to fully relate it to reality as you would otherwise They fit together smoothly, but to actually be full of meaning need to practice the systems. And they work, that is the reason we are using all this, so its the other way around we aren't looking at the reasoning we look for what can most closely fit to the type of change we observe. Why is like that, we don't need to fully understand, with time that understanding develops, but for start we just need to observe.

If we try to find meaning from it, before using it, it will be challenging, as to prove it works you need to actually know it well enough to see its implications in the world around.

About activating branches during the day... Well, in my experience it works, have seen it in practice. Now, this isn't my main thing, so not as much as a lot of other stuff mentioned here, but I have seen it in myself as well. However, to understand it you need to know what branch/element is damaged and what is damaging it, as the damaging element time of activation may be the time of the problem as well. And again there are many Images in many levels, that can work only for pain or problem getting worse in specific time of day most days.

Anyway, short answer - they are just different types of "tools" we use depending of the type of change we are looking into. So in 5 to 8, the movement is faster, the peaks are shorter and the Earth is taking them in storage(notice how the Earth trigrams are right after Kan/Li) only after the peaks. So need only 2 earths and the fire/water trigrams are 1.

Its just different map, they fit into each other perfectly, but they are showing and working for different environment. : )

So... I get you want logical explanation without using the elements and in here I'm trying to show that the elements fit perfectly(even though fully understanding that may need knowledge of the systems and actual charts/maps we can post). The problem is I cna't prove it without using it, the approach we take is the opposite - we learn it, use it and very fast it will clearly show it works. Then the problem becomes on "how precisely it works" and that part takes many years.

But if we look for logical explanation there may not be any. We observe nature, we see different patterns of "change" and we map it out. Sometimes it will show with stronger peaks as in the Trigrams, something slower and more smooth as in the branches, or very strong imprinting, but light and easily lost in the stems... And there is more, if we look at earlier heaven or the different types of cycles...

So as I said its a vast amount of knowledge and giving up so early with the idea the first helpful division of the 5 elements isn't working is not a perfect idea. They do work, they just need context to use them in and if you didn't find that for TCM, its definitely there for the other systems even in relation to TCM.



Now, why your friends are getting much worse results using the 5 elements in TCM I do not know, I don't practice TCM as I said, but I would guess that the problem isn't in the elements its in the way they are using them.


There was a saying in China that if a western person comes there and stays a week they write an article. If they stay a few months they write a book. If they stay a year they don't write anything.

So the more we get into it the more complicated it becomes, but to even start getting into it we need the 5 elements for most of it. If they feel so unfamiliar and not rational, maybe the rest of the 5 arts just aren't for you, then just acupuncture can work I guess, doesn't need deeper meaning on why you do it.
 

jukkodave

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Hi Gmulii
You really have gone to a lot of effort and it is beautifully presented.

What I mean by coherent and rational is that whatever rules or criteria that are applied in one degree are also applied to the other degrees. If that rationality and coherence is applied then it becomes possible to "create" almost any sort of theoretical system and it could just as easily be based on 7, or 13 or 17 or 23 or any other number.

Perhaps I didnt make it clear. I know all of the theory learnt it more than 30 years ago so while your diagrams are beautifully presented reminding me of what I already know is not answering the questions of how it is logical, rational and coherent.
You say there are 2 types of Earth, Dry Earth and Wet Earth. To be coherent and rational that has to make sense.
If there are 2 types of Earth there have to be 2 types of ALL the elements. 2 of Fire, 2 of Metal, 2 of Wood, 2 of Water.
"Wet" Earth is not just Earth it is a combination of Earth and Water. To be rational and coherent there would have to be combinations of ALL of the elements.

If it was a "different type of Earth then that would make it 6 parts and not 5. Using a name that is similar doesnt make it the same. If there are "dry " earth and "wet" earth the qualities are so differentnthat would be 6, and in this case rely on the inclusion of another element doesnt make it an element at all.

"as one practitioner of chinese astrology said some years ago "5 elements are for the novices".

Which is really another way of saying that we know that 5E doesnt work but that is the theory that has been passed down so we will have to teach it in the beginning and then when you know more about Astrology you will realise that 5E doesnt work.

It is remarkable that the Chineses discovered Astrololgy when they did, with no access to any of the science and knowledge to confirm the heavenly bodies, the planets apart from Wing Xu, moving star, the ones you can see. But we now know there are more than 5. They worked out that there are 12 principles, and 10 factors. Just the same as Western Astrology. But the view of Astrologers is that it wouldnt matter if there were 4, 5, 9, 10 or 20, the "moving stars" against the background of the 12 segements of the cosmos and the 12 segments of the human being provide the "frequencies" with which everything resonates and the principles of Astrology permit one to work out the resonances of an individual at any moment of time. So the 10 is not significant as a number but just as a reflection of what is actually in the heavens. So nothing in that to explain why 5 is relevant in any sort of way. If 5E worked it would it matter if there were 997 hevenly bodies or 6.

"Fire and Dry Earth are consider having similar Images in branches/stems."

I know that is the theory but where is the logical, rational and coherent explanation of why 2 things are considered similar. If there is similarity between 2 parts of the theory then to be ration and coherent there must be "similarities" between other elements.

"lets look at the Later Heaven Arrangement and Lo Shu"
The first diagram has nothing to do with 5 or 12. It is the first iteration of 4. You recall that the original 5E was with the 5th at the centre. When something is at the centre, connecting all of the others, the centre one is significant in its own right and as it connects all of the others cannot be rationaly and coherently considerd to be part of the 4 or 8 that suround it.
The second diagram you again have to rely on there being 2 different kinds of one element, but not 2 kinds of the other element, in order to make it "fit".
Then you say that Fire and Water are seen as "peaks", why would fire and water be seen as peaks, if there are peaks, then there are the opposites and there are troughs (valleys). if one was going to refere to peaks perhaps the polarity of Heven and Earth would be better examples of peaks. But that is a contradiction as the meaning if Earth, in contrast to Heaven is different from the "element" that can be on its own and dry or mixed with water to make it wet. So according to the "theories" we now have 3 kinds of "Earth"

Of course everythingis a different kind of change so the diagram would have to include all the "types" of change to be coherent and rational.

The QMDJ maps are reliant on the theories that are in question so unless one can show that the "theories" are rational and coherent then the analysis of a QMDJ maap really doesnt mean much at all. Given that Western Astrology has just as much validity as QMDJ and has a much better measure of time. it would appear to be a better representation of the individual resonances of the individual in  the cosmos than QMDJ could ever be, given that we no know there are more that 5 heavenly bodies and if all the compromise that have had to be made to the system to try and make it fit into all the theories.
Of course on major problem with the QMDJ is that it is actually 9, and incorprates the 8 Trigrams and unless there is a rational and coherent explanation of how and what they are relevant, something being discussed in the thread "layer cake imagery" and which no one has yet been able to address in any sort of coherent or rational way, then the incorpration and the interpreation that one might make from them has no rationality or coherence.

I agree that QMDJ, stems and branches will be seen to "work". That is because there is enough of the basics of the 12 segements of the cosmsos and human beings, which is mirrored in western astrology and is shown to work in a very real and pratical way in Chinese Medicine, and the use of 10, even if it is not properly understood as to why 10 are used, will still mean that the 10/12 combinations in the thoery will still resonate to some degree or another and so will be seen to "work". There will be plenty of examples of it working, though often one has to ignore the many times that it dosnt work.

"why your friends are getting much worse results using the 5 elements in TCM I do not know, I don't practice TCM as I said, but I would guess that the problem isn't in the elements its in the way they are using them."

Sorry but the sugestion that those in Medicine are applying them incorrectly doesnt fit with what is actaully happening, everyone is applying the theories of 5E to TCM just the way that it should be. The problem is that 5 doesnt fit into 12 and one has to do all of the irrational and incoherent things that you describe in order to make the "theories" of 5 "fit" into a system of 12, which does works.

"If they feel so unfamiliar and not rational, maybe the rest of the 5 arts just aren't for you"

That might be very good argument except that it doesnt make sense. It has nothing to do with feeling unfamiliar. I have been practicing TCM for more than 30 years. The concepts, the principles of Yin and Yang were unfamiliar to me in the beginning but now they are as familar to me as my feet and hands.
I dont see how familiarity is in any way connected with rationality and coherence. In fact the more "familiar" that I have become with 5E the less rational and coherent they have become. The less I simply believe in what is being taught and the "theories" the more that I see the contradictions in all aspects of 5E theory and the more I see the inconsistencies in the logical, rational and coherent analysis of 5E.

"that can work only for pain or problem getting worse in specific time of day most days"

It is that "theory" that was one of the first things that raised questions about 5E. Sometimes it fits but most of the time it doesnt and the explanation of why pain and problems get better or worse at different times of the days is more easily and coherently explained by a good understanding of the Zang Fu nad the dynamics of Yin and Yang and the 8 principles, though that really should be 6 Principles of one thinks about it, the 6 Principles and Yin and Yang. In this sense we come back to the resonance principles, everyone resonates differently and putting aside the explanations of why a particular type of problem flares up,say in thte morningwhen one wakes up, which is beter explained by the physiology of Zang Fu and 8 Principles, there are those whose problems flare up or decline at different times becaue there individaul resonances with the cosmos and themselves is activating one Zang Fu and so one Channel at particular time, or which usnt be ignored in response to an external factor. The notions of timing throughtout the day is one of the most unreliable things connected to 5E theory. Just becuase one gets lucky and it seems to work now and again a honest logical approach reveals that it doesnt work most of the time and if it diesnt work most of the time it may be no better than a random or placebo effect.
One advantage of the West is that very few people "know" about 5E, stems and branches, so will have no expectation that a particular symptoms is likely, supposed to, manifest at one time of the day. That is a placebo effect and the advantage in the West is that we get to see the effects without the placebo effect of prior knowledge.

"they are just different types of "tools" we use depending of the type of change we are looking into"

But if you dont know what the "types of change" actually are and cant explain ALL of them in a logical. rational and coherent way, if you dont know how many there are or the qualities of them then how can you look into the changes at all in any sort of rational or coherent manner. If you dont know if the "tools" are rational and coherent and so appropriate for the types of change then how would you know which "tool " to use in any goven situation at any given time.

"acupuncture can work I guess, doesn't need deeper meaning on why you do it"

But it is the other way around, the "deeper" meaning comes from a better understanding of the Zang Fu, the 8 Principles, actions of the Points, the actions of the Channels. The "knowledge of 5E only confuses and takes away from that deeper understanding and only if it was correct, only if it was rational and coherent would it be adding anything and providing a deeper meaing to better Acupuncture.
As there not seem to be any rational, logical or coherent reasons or explanations as to why 5E should work or be applicable to TCM, to Trigrams and the Yi, it can hardly be seen as a deeper meaning but more as something that one believes in with no logical reasons at all.
I appreciate that you may want to believe in 5E, stems and branches and QMDJ, many things make sense if you believe in them, but as soon as one leaves behind the belief structures it becomes possible to see any obvious contradictions and any lack of rational coherence.
Of course if something worked and was rational and coherent then leaving behind the belief would make no difference and one would simply see what was there. If it worked it would stand up to all and any kinds of investigations and analysis and wouldnt need any sort of trust or belief as the logical, rational and coherent would shine through, and any contradictions would be easily explained.

Although you have put much effort into your post it does require that one would have to believe in what you are saying and as you have repeated the very contradictions, the lack of logic, rational and coherent reasons as to why and how 5E, stems and branches work at all, that made me question then in the first place, it is not really providing a response to the questions that I am presenting about 5E.
But thanks for the efforts.

All the best

Dave
 

Gmulii

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If there are 2 types of Earth there have to be 2 types of ALL the elements. 2 of Fire, 2 of Metal, 2 of Wood, 2 of Water.
"Wet" Earth is not just Earth it is a combination of Earth and Water. To be rational and coherent there would have to be combinations of ALL of the elements.

I don't get from where this requirement is coming from.
I don't think its from nature.
If we look around nature we will see fire much less then we would see earth for example. And we will never see "wet fire".

So does that mean nature isn't rational and coherent?
 

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