Going to the doctor - Hexagram 22 unchanging

[Wild Goose]

I've had an infection the last month and wondered if I should bother going to the doctor, I always end up feeling better by the time I go or the visit turns out to be pointless, I think I should bounce back with some rest still I decided to ask IC the outcome of going to the doctor and got Hexagram 22uc. It's unchanging which makes me think nothing will change if I go, not sure what beauty means here - the illness is only superficial? If I go I will look better? Beauty seems like an odd response. Does anyone have any idea's?

 

[Freedda]

Yes, go to the doctor and get it checked out!

 

[Wild Goose]

Yes, go to the doctor and get it checked out!

Ok, that is a really certain response, is that because of something in the reading or my post?

 

[Freedda]

It's unchanging which makes me think nothing will change if I go,

First, that's not what an unchaning hexagram means, and even that was even a possibly its opposite could hold true too - that it won't change or get better until you get it checked out.

And second, unless I understood more about how to use the Yi for medical diagnosis, I'd not rely on it for medical advice. You said you've had an infection for quite a while (a month?), so common sense says you should go get it checked out.

 

[Liselle]

(Hilary's translations)
Oracle:
'Beauty.
Creating success.
Small yield from having a direction to go.'

Image:
'Below the mountain is fire.
Beauty.
A noble one brings light to the many standards, but does not venture to pass judgement.'

As David rightly says, trying to decide things like this by interpreting Yi readings can be problematic. But I'd ask, too. Am not fond of useless trips to the doctor.

The reading does say "Small yield from having a direction to go" - not much to be gained from trying to move towards a result or having a purpose in mind.

"Brings light but does not venture to pass judgement" makes me wonder if the doctor would do tests? Or make a diagnosis but not really have a treatment? (Could it be a virus? Not much to do for those.)

Bradford Hatcher says in his Gua Ming (hexagram names) document that, among other things, 22 is like social graces. I wonder if going through the motions might be another phrase.

Of course going through the motions to get a doctor's opinion would surely at least put your mind at ease, which could very well be worth doing. A month is a long time to have an infection, I'd think.

 

[Liselle]

For another perspective, you might want to read Hilary's essay on 22. One sentence from it: "When you’re given Hexagram 22 itself to work with, the image and the surface are important."

 

[Wild Goose]

As David rightly says, trying to decide things like this by interpreting Yi readings can be problematic. But I'd ask, too. Am not fond of useless trips to the doctor.

The reading does say "Small yield from having a direction to go" - not much to be gained from trying to move towards a result or having a purpose in mind.

Unless I have inflammation going on the doctors are generally baffled as to what to do with any ailments no matter how miserable they are, since I know I've been skipping lots of rest I suspect catching up will give my body the strength needed to shift the infection plus I hate wasting doctors time like this. The end of the year before last I had a similar infection and the doctor was absolutely awful I don't know what I did to upset her (I suspect I went into the room through the wrong door?) she was short of saying out loud "get out of my office and stop wasting my time!", put me off going for life and I didn't want to go in the first place, a board member happened to catch me at my work place and wouldn't let up until I went, in the end I just had to wait several weeks/months until it shifted on.

"Brings light but does not venture to pass judgement" makes me wonder if the doctor would do tests? Or make a diagnosis but not really have a treatment? (Could it be a virus? Not much to do for those.)

This is what I suspect, the best they can do is antibiotics and they are trying to avoid medicating the population this way unless absolutely necessary.

Bradford Hatcher says in his Gua Ming (hexagram names) document that, among other things, 22 is like social graces. I wonder if going through the motions might be another phrase.

While I realise this is a brazen exploit of Yi - this is what I feel I would be doing and forcing the doctor to do if I go, I've already decided to rest and will follow up, I was thinking, unless the oracle result is something like I will drop dead where I stand I feel content to avoid the gp like the plague. Equally forcing the doctor through a series of pointless tests over something that will clear up on it's own makes me honestly cringe.

For another perspective, you might want to read Hilary's essay on 22.

Yes I read this one when I got the reading, the ornamentation part threw me a bit and then when it speaks about ceremony I thought about 22 meaning what you said above about going through the motions. Right now this bit jumps out at me:

Beauty does best, yields a harvest, when it has a direction to go. The young man becomes a suitor for her and for their wedding; people become teachers for the sake of their pupils, or actors because there’s an audience. This can become a question of self-image: being something for someone.

Like a patient for a doctor?

One sentence from it: "When you’re given Hexagram 22 itself to work with, the image and the surface are important."

I hadn't thought about that line at all, could it refer to my physical appearance, I look fine at least.

Thanks Liselle, I do realise I ask a lot of silly questions and I appreciate everyone's patience with me

 

[Liselle]

How on earth did the forum attach my name to quotes from Hilary's article? The two quotes that start, "Beauty does best, yields a harvest..." and "Like a patient for a doctor?." Can you edit your post and fix it, by any chance? I'm not sure if it's possible to make quotations from that part of the site display in the quote formatting, but if you could edit my name out? Just put plain quote tags around the quotations, like this:

[quote]The quick brown fox jumps over the lazy dog.[/quote]

the best they can do is antibiotics

That's the problem. If you need antibiotics - if you have a bacterial infection - then you should get them. But they shouldn't give you antibiotics for a virus.

 

[Wild Goose]

First, that's not what an unchaning hexagram means, and even that was even a possibly its opposite could hold true too - that it won't change or get better until you get it checked out.

I'm not sure if that's what an unchanging hexagram means per se, only from the threads here I often read that unchanging hexagrams show a situation at an impasse, so to the question - the outcome of going to the doctors - I interpreted as, impasse, no change, or little difference.

and even that was even a possibly its opposite could hold true too - that it won't change or get better

This is something I didn't know and/or haven't learned yet.

And second, unless I understood more about how to use the Yi for medical diagnosis, I'd not rely on it for medical advice.

It was less for diagnosis and more for whether bothering to go was worth it or not, the 'small yield' makes me think not to bother, once I collasped and they sent me for test over a week later and while coming back clear was great it felt like a waste of everyone's time to me - they were like *shrug* drink more water or something, that time like many I knew I was run down and without rest, I don't want to bother them everytime I'm unwell if I can get better myself and I'm very much of the mindset of I must rely on myself in that department.

You said you've had an infection for quite a while (a month?), so common sense says you should go get it checked out.

Yeah, I know, I understand what you're saying......

 

[Liselle]

I hadn't thought about that line at all, could it refer to my physical appearance, I look fine at least.

22 in general can have to do with outward appearance, but surely not for this question. You're asking about going to the doctor for an infection. It has nothing to do with "beauty," per se. You have to think about it as a metaphor.

 

[Wild Goose]

How on earth did the forum attach my name to quotes from Hilary's article? The two quotes that start, "Beauty does best, yields a harvest..." and "Like a patient for a doctor?." Can you edit your post and fix it, by any chance? I'm not sure if it's possible to make quotations from that part of the site display in the quote formatting, but if you could edit my name out?

Sorry Liselle that wasn't the forum, that was just my bad editing, it should be fixed.

That's the problem. If you need antibiotics - if you have a bacterial infection - then you should get them. But they shouldn't give you antibiotics for a virus.

Sorry I'm not focused, yes, no they shouldn't I don't know why I'm thinking about antibiotics.

You're asking about going to the doctor for an infection. It has nothing to do with "beauty," per se. You have to think about it as a metaphor.

I'll have to reflect and learn more about the image I think, a digestive problem is the first thing that jumps to mind with fire under the mountain.

 

[diamanda]

the outcome of going to the doctor and got Hexagram 22uc
The character for 22 can mean 'many shells together'. So the doctor will prescribe you medication (shells, as in capsules). 22 also means energetic, forging ahead, so I would read this as yes go because you need medication.

 

[Wild Goose]

the outcome of going to the doctor and got Hexagram 22uc
The character for 22 can mean 'many shells together'. So the doctor will prescribe you medication (shells, as in capsules). 22 also means energetic, forging ahead, so I would read this as yes go because you need medication.

Hi diamanda I ended up reading more threads about the image and peoples experience not much agreement of what 22uc is about though I noticed it came up quite a bit for medical and health issues, so while not sold I started to consider going. Hadn't thought of the character at all, or heard about 22 as shells, I'm going to call them in the morning then (urgh) and see what they say, thanks for your thoughts

 

[Freedda]

I'm going to call them in the morning then (urgh) and see what they say

And I am curious, what are you going to tell 'them?

Looking again at 22 and the two, 3-line figures it includes, you have Fire within - or at the foot of - Mountain: here one's clarity is limited because one's light is either hidden or partially block (by the mountain), so in this case I think it might mean that you have limited clarity about your own situation (and your are stuck), and you may need others' perspectives - their clarity and views - about it.

 

[Wild Goose]

And I am curious, what are you going to tell 'them?

Looking again at 22 and the two, 3-line figures it includes, you have Fire within - or at the foot of - Mountain: here one's clarity is limited because one's light is either hidden or partially block (by the mountain), so in this case I think it might mean that you have limited clarity about your own situation (and your are stuck), and you may need others' perspectives - their clarity and views - about it.

Ok that image interpretation makes sense, I was just thinking of what to tell them now - just that I've had an infection since the end of January and it includes cold symptoms, tight throat, feeling tired and gross phlegm. Since I was feeling run down before I wasn't surprised or panic'd, it'd be different if my health suddenly took a turn in the middle of feeling quite well.

Edit: I will follow up after I talk to them and/or go in and hopefully the meaning will be clearer.

 

[Freedda]

In the mean time, get enough water and sleep, and eat well.

 

[Wild Goose]

In the mean time, get enough water and sleep, and eat well.

Thanks Freedda will do

 

[Wild Goose]

I just finished speaking with the GP, he said it's nothing to worry about and that something like this is going around and peoples immune systems are quite low right now, also 4-6 weeks is completely normal so since it's been 5 he said give it another week or 2 and if it gets worse come for a test, other symptoms I described he said can be from the infection affecting the ear and balance and that it'll be better once it's cleared which sounds like it will be soon. I opted for a phone consultation and it wasn't as awful as I thought it'd be at all. Not sure how that reflects 22uc but that was the jist of it.

 

[Wild Goose]

I asked: can you tell me about the conversation I just had with the doctor and received Hexagram 64.2.3.5.6>31 not sure about all those changing lines, will have to see how it goes.

 

[Liselle]

Not sure how that reflects 22uc

A phone consultation is more superficial. He went by what you told him, by the presentation you made, how you described it to him.

if it gets worse come for a test

That might be a reflection of the pair, 21, Biting Through. If it gets worse more will have to be done.

 

[Liselle]

JaT (what would you like us to call you? do you have a suggestion?), do you belong to WikiWing? If not, would you mind if I put this reading in the 22 unchanging section? I think it's a good example.

 

[Wild Goose]

JaT (what would you like us to call you? do you have a suggestion?), do you belong to WikiWing? If not, would you mind if I put this reading in the 22 unchanging section? I think it's a good example.

Yes JaT sounds good, not a WikiWinger yet so sure go ahead, I'll probably end up updating again though depending on how this develops.

A phone consultation is more superficial. He went by what you told him, by the presentation you made, how you described it to him.

I don't know, its hard to say like I look physically fine and I can give a clearer picture of the symptoms over the phone then in person while at the same time it's as you say - a phone consultation is just conversation - he's not required to do any tests as he would if I was in his office.

That might be a reflection of the pair, 21, Biting Through. If it gets worse more will have to be done.

I'm convinced a lot of blood tests are tools meant to do nothing more than placate anxious patients - I got that vibe, like, if you're still not convinced I can get an 'all fine' sheet of paper for you. Honestly unless he has a specific thing in mind he's testing for I don't see much point - still I'll give it a week and if I'm still wrecked I'll 'bite'.

 

[Freedda]

I'm convinced a lot of blood tests are tools meant to do nothing more than placate anxious patients .... Honestly unless he has a specific thing in mind he's testing for I don't see much point.

At this point I think the Yi has advised as much as it can regarding your original question - and looking at it too much more is just getting into the weeds with it. To paraphrase the Yi - rearranging (or relooking, or re-examining, or re-re-examing) the Yi's response doesn't change the Yi's response.

My doctor doesn't order tests unless he has to look at something specific. or he needs to use it as a diagnositc tool to find out what's going on. And with a mysterious infection, I think there's a lot that can be revealed.

 

[Liselle]

Yes JaT sounds good, not a WikiWinger yet so sure go ahead, I'll probably end up updating again though depending on how this develops.

Good point, adding it now would be jumping the gun. (Maybe you'll join WikiWing in the meantime )

I don't know, its hard to say like I look physically fine and I can give a clearer picture of the symptoms over the phone then in person while at the same time it's as you say - a phone consultation is just conversation - he's not required to do any tests as he would if I was in his office.

I should have said he was going by the presentation you made (22) rather than seeing for himself, which would be more 21-like. (21 is 22's paired hexagram, turn each end-to-end and you get the other).

A description of something (22) is not the essence of the thing (21), even though it's all one package. It's important to describe symptoms to doctors, but it's often not enough - they still look into throats and ears, listen to hearts and lungs, take temperatures, x-rays, and blood, etc.. All those things are more like 21 - getting to the essence, collecting data, investigating ('fruitful to use legal proceedings'). I think the reading meant right now it's 22 time, not (or not yet) 21 time.

I don't think 22 is about physical appearance in this reading. It's about a 22-ish interaction with the doctor rather than a 21-ish one. "I asked Yi the outcome of going to the doctor" - thinking about that a tiny bit fuzzily, the outcome of you taking some action towards going to the doctor ("having a direction to go" - calling his office, presumably) was that you were given options, and you picked the phone consultation ("small yield").

 

[Wild Goose]

Good point, adding it now would be jumping the gun. (Maybe you'll join WikiWing in the meantime )



I should have said he was going by the presentation you made (22) rather than seeing for himself, which would be more 21-like. (21 is 22's paired hexagram, turn each end-to-end and you get the other).

A description of something (22) is not the essence of the thing (21), even though it's all one package. It's important to describe symptoms to doctors, but it's often not enough - they still look into throats and ears, listen to hearts and lungs, take temperatures, x-rays, and blood, etc.. All those things are more like 21 - getting to the essence, collecting data, investigating ('fruitful to use legal proceedings'). I think the reading meant right now it's 22 time, not (or not yet) 21 time.

I don't think 22 is about physical appearance in this reading. It's about a 22-ish interaction with the doctor rather than a 21-ish one. "I asked Yi the outcome of going to the doctor" - thinking about that a tiny bit fuzzily, the outcome of you taking some action towards going to the doctor ("having a direction to go" - calling his office, presumably) was that you were given options, and you picked the phone consultation ("small yield").

Thank you, ok I got it.

The outcome is a superficial one because I opted for a phone conversation over a physical examination.

The description of symptoms is the surface of things you mentioned earlier. Since he only heard about the symptoms rather than investigated them himself - he only saw the surface of the illness.

Perhaps because of this the yield was small?

 

[Freedda]

he only saw the surface of the illness.

Jesus! Make a decision here - go to the doctor or don't! But don't opt for a phone conversation and then tell us the doctor 'only saw the surface of the illness'!

 

[Wild Goose]

Jesus! Make a decision here - go to the doctor or don't! But don't opt for a phone conversation and then tell us the doctor 'only saw the surface of the illness'!

That was in response to the meaning of 22uc, I didn't want to wait until Friday for an appointment so opted for a call, he's give it a week before tests sounded reasonable to me and I plan to bring up that the tests be relevant if it comes to that.

I think I'll leave it there, wasting peoples time is not my intention at all and I should probably complete some learning in the IC before making any further posts.

 

[Wild Goose]

At this point I think the Yi has advised as much as it can regarding your original question - and looking at it too much more is just getting into the weeds with it. To paraphrase the Yi - rearranging (or relooking, or re-examining, or re-re-examing) the Yi's response doesn't change the Yi's response.

My doctor doesn't order tests unless he has to look at something specific. or he needs to use it as a diagnositc tool to find out what's going on. And with a mysterious infection, I think there's a lot that can be revealed.

Sorry missed this reply. Just looking at Yi's response to learn more about the hexagram and the blood test thing is just my throw away opinion on it, I'm sure there are plenty of doctors that don't do that.

 

[Freedda]

Just looking at Yi's response to learn more about the hexagram and

Okay. Sorry for being so snarky, but I thought you were saying that you weren't going to go to the doctor, nor take any tests, and that was frustrating to me. Sometimes the Yi is helpful, but you shouldn't let it replace your common sense, especially if the reading is not clear. For me, it's not rocket science: if you're sick or have an infection and it's not getting better then you should go to a doctor and get tests if that's what's needed. And if you don't like MDs, at least consider a naturapath or acupuncturist. But do something!

 

[Liselle]

Perhaps because of this the yield was small?

That stumped me for a while. But maybe the answer's that you haven't gotten to the 'yield' part. As you reminded me, the outcome hasn't happened yet.

Two things could happen now (as far as I can tell):

• Your illness clears up on its own. Which in a way means you never needed the doctor in the first place, but there was still a small yield from talking to him: information, reassurance, instructions, and a suggested time frame (let him know in a week if it's worse or not any better). At least that'll help with your worrying, I hope.
• It doesn't clear up, in which case the yield from the 22-ish interaction is also small. You gained things from it, but it didn't solve the problem because it couldn't.

I should probably complete some learning in the IC

Have you taken Hilary's beginner's course? It sounds like you might have, or you'd gotten past that point on your own. (It might still be worth a once-over - Hilary has a habit of inserting unexpected gems into things.)

The next step would be the Foundations course. It even turns out, conveniently, that Hilary's teaching a live Foundations class in a few weeks.