Help, please! Critique Clarity's new look

[scalambra]

new site not much different

Dear Hilary

I've had a look at the new site designs. To preface my comments: I run half a dozen web-sites, at least one of which is commerical, but I'm not a graphic designer.

To be honest the new versions are not very much different from the old one. The colour scheme is very similar, neutral, although slightly bolder than before which is a good thing.

Eliminating the left hand menu bar makes the site easier to view in 800x600 but has given you three horizontal menu bars; for me this is one too many, but it's okay. Of the two new versions, the second one I like more. The logo is bigger and, well, more clear, which is good for a site called online clarity. But I'd like it even more if the tabs didn't stick up into the banner space.

I think I understand why you've used tabs for your indices, although I don't really lke them personally - they make me think of sites like amazon, or a card index. LiSe uses coins; is there something else you could use that makes you think of the Yi? I don't know, cracked bones, yarrow stalks...

Sticking with tabs though, the selected tab should strike the eye more than the others, but it's the other way round - the unselected ones are blue with a high text contrast and they draw the eye more than the yellow one. I suggest you just swap the colours round, making sure that the sub-menu has a high contrast rather than a low one at present.

Basically I think that you can retain your qualities of clarity and neutrality and still experiment a bit more with colour and contrast.

With love

Michael

 

[hilary]

I'd love to ditch the logo... or indeed replace it with the worm, just as soon as Luis's finished talking with it. Try gazing into its eyes - you can see it aspires to logo-dom.

Anyone else think I should get out more?

But alas, I could never afford the worm's fees, and a site with no logo at all would look sadly blank and anonymous. I'm open to suggestions for a new one, though. Actually I sort-of thought of a new one, but since I can neither draw nor work the gr(rrrrrrr)aphics program, it's staying strictly conceptual.

Despite requests, I'm not adding a third unrelated colour to the page. Not that I have an aesthetic sense, but I know what I like , and that wouldn't be it.

Is staging_2 still causing people to get out the umbrellas? I wonder what effect it'd have if the gradient did extend right down to the tabs.

Hello, Michael! Half a dozen, eh? Going to look at your profile for links. [Edit: and didn't find any! Please share!] No, I didn't intend for there to be a big difference in the 'look and feel'. I often get people telling me the site as is feels welcoming, especially the colours, so I didn't want to change that.

I think the banner area, even in staging_2, looks a bit squished. You're right, it's all those horizontal menus. There's also the question of why have a yellow 'stripe' between gradient and tabs. I'm not sure whether to extend the gradient (weather issues!) or move the tabs down, making that 'stripe' wider. I'll ask Dawud to try both.

Tabs - true, there's nothing very Yi-related or Clarity-related about them. I can't think of anything better to use instead, though. (A row of bones? A marching line of turtles? Maybe not.) I take your point about the colours, and the 'greyed out' tabs actually looking more prominent. I'm hoping that just changing the shade of blue to something from the paler end of the gradient will help. (Otherwise we'd have two blue gradients stacked at the top of the page, and maybe it'd be too much like a zebra.)

I also take your point about the inadequate contrast for the second (and third) level navigation. Going to change that.

I'm also trying to think of ways to include photos. As decoration if I can (my attempts so far look naff, though); as illustration, definitely. It's something I intended to do on the last redesign, it just never looked balanced with the blue sidebar.

I think it's time I started gathering ideas together and sending them back to Dawud, along with some suggested hex values for the tabs.

 

[jenicha]

logo

Dear Hilary,
i like the new design, it looks fresh and light. and i always liked the font you use, so no complaints there either, and the fact that it is a bit bigger than before is an advantage for me. Now, the logos - both versions have something nice and also something clumzy about them and their position in relation to the other elements of the page. I really like the one where clarity comes on top of the symbol: http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/STAGING/img/logo.gif
but i think it looks cluttered when you put it on top of a background with gradient of color.
Now, the other version:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/STAGING_2/img/logo.gif
looks more simple in a good way, but also more old-fashioned in terms of web style.
Maybe it might be possible to actually try with the logo that appears now in the top of the left-hand side menu:
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/images/yi3.jpg
it is sleek and small, and it might just fit better the background colors of the top of the page.
anyway, the new look is nice, whichever you decide to pick, and it is just a matter of playing around with it a little bit, that's all.

Good luck and don't worry too much about it, what fills the form is also important.

 

[Sparhawk]

just as soon as Luis's finished talking with it. Try gazing into its eyes - you can see it aspires to logo-dom.

You're kidding, right? He's my new best friend! I recognize treats of my subconscious when I see it...

And I like logos, btw. Nothing builds identity as a well thought logo. Think of the Nike "Woosh". At some point people may not remember the name of the site but will remember the logo, or conversely, they'll remember the name because of the logo.

L

 

[hilary]

Hello Jenicha,

Thank you for signing up to post and help me with this! I do agree with what you say about the different logos. We did try using the existing one, but it doesn't go well at all on the new gradient background. It looks like an accident up there - stuck on like a postage stamp. So I'm left somewhat at a loss... I think I'll go with

- just tweaked a little, eg changing the font to the one I use now, and maybe enlarging the 'Clarity', or moving it up a little. Unless inspiration strikes, of course...

 

[hilary]

Sorry, Luis. Didn't want to interfere with the blossoming of a beautiful friendship.

 

[Sparhawk]

Sorry, Luis. Didn't want to interfere with the blossoming of a beautiful friendship.

That's right! I think Bruce is on to something with "Master Wormyi Readings". If a "Rabbit Knows" so can Master Wormyi...

L

 

[Trojina]

I'm wondering if the Yi has been consulted in this design process ?

 

[renqizhen]

Wide eyed

The alternative updated logotype is cleaner, crisper and convey more clarity.

I also like the simplicity and contrasts between different page elements, but the overall impression isn't very user-friendly.

On a 1020 screen (highest market share today) each line is far too long for comfortable reading. It's like watching a tennis game from the front row at Wimbledon, your eyes have to cross the whole page for each line.

To the human eye, webpages are images and not anything like pages out of a book. People don't read off the screen, they scan for keywords, colour and graphical elements.

This layout reminds me too much of Words and early FrontPage text centric design. You have text, text, text, and more text. Where are the shadows and the smoke? Where is the fire and spirit? I find no perspective or depth, no texture or graphical elements that makes quick scanning possible.

I would suggest introducing a column to the right - for facts and references, images and symbols. Use graphical elements like boxes, images, graphs, icons, Chinese characters, colour and shadow sparingly - and never anything that keeps blinking.

This page layout is one shot. Use the proposed design to create at least 15 pages, scroll down and scan the content. If the layout seems boring and bland after page 5 - this design is not for you.

All the best from a wayward old friend

 

[bruce_g]

Where are the shadows and the smoke? Where is the fire and spirit? I find no perspective or depth, no texture or graphical elements that makes quick scanning possible.

I wrote on these exact things early this morning, but wound up deleting the post, as it seemed redundant to what I've already said.

It seems natural that something like the Yijing would convey a sense of mystery and even danger - the 29 to the 30, and the 31 which results, as well a sense of 10. All the designs presented seem almost unnaturally safe, at least to me. It's like I go to grandma's kitchen for cookies. But then maybe that has its own appeal. The look of the site never bothers me; it's very comfy. But if I was a newcomer, it would strike me as rather lack luster. The up side to that is that it also doesn't look suspicious or fraudulent. I don't see much distinction between the current design from the new ones, other than a few technical elements. The feel is essentially the same.

 

[Trojina]

But Bruce if you look around theres plenty of I Ching sites with all that imagery and smoke and mystery and so on - I don't think they work any the better for it.

Reason being I think when the appearance is simpler its more approachable for all kinds of people.


Besides theres the 15 aspect - if Hilary were to adopt a style here that she was not comfortable with it wouldn't work - like going out wearing someone elses clothes.

 

[lindsay]

How about less attention to the bottle, and more attention to the wine? Or perhaps the medium is the message?

 

[bruce_g]

I must have overstated my meaning. I didn't mean "smoke and mirrors" or anything shady. Anyway, my perspective may reflect a strong male bias, and Hilary's primary target demographic is undoubtedly female. As I've said, I'm comfy with the look and feel as it is, or any simile thereof. No other forum lets me post worm cartoons.

 

[hilary]

Yes, the text block will get narrower. That was one of the reasons for redesigning in first place, so it's altogether strange of me not to have picked up on it at once. And once I get to actual articles rather than lore ipsum, I'll have scope for illustrative photos, characters and gua. I need to remember that I can afford some more photos these days; 56K dial-up isn't a super-fast connection any more...

Ren, you're the second person to suggest a right-hand column - a friend with a knack for design suggested either narrow the text block overall, or leave clear space all the way down under that tertiary navigation box on the right. (And, of course, put any content I want to highlight down there in extra boxes.) A lot of sites have this vertical bar for first navigation, then soundbites. I just wonder if it'd look lopsided.

About Grandma's kitchen versus mystery, danger, shadows or smoke... I did want to keep much the same feel as at present. Welcoming, human, reassuring - approachable, like Trojan said.

If you were a newcomer, you wouldn't know I was real. You'd see a website asking for money, and you'd have no way of knowing who or what might be behind it. If you give out your card details, will you ever get what you paid for? Or are you just pouring your trust and goodwill out into the ether? Maybe it worked once - sure, there's a photo and an address - but is the site owner still there, or did she move away years ago and just forget to delete her site? (Another reason to have a design that looks reasonably up-to-date, btw.)

In other words - there's enough 29 involved in spending money online at the best of times - even just buying a book from Amazon is a bit chasm-like for many people. Telling half your life story to a perfect stranger you're not even sure is real? Huge leap of faith - I doubt I'd have the courage for it, myself. I think the main job of the visual design, the first impression, is to counterbalance all of that.

What I would like to have is more sense of space, and more sense of opening out onto the real world. If I had forever, and limitless funds, I'd hire some artistic genius to create something wholly new with photographs of sunlit landscape blending subtly into the page. (Sunlit lakes for the forum, sunlit branches for 'learn', maybe just light and birds for 'readings'...) But I have neither, I do have a colour scheme that works, and I'd also rather be spending time on the wine than the bottle.

Yi has been involved in choosing the designer and coaching me on how to work with him. And today - oops, I mean yesterday, been writing too long - I asked for advice on the proposed design, and got 6 moving to 35. I suspect 6 has to do with some of my flailing indignation when Dawud didn't appear to be 'getting' what I meant. (Actually every time he did do something I suggested it made things look much worse...) Looking at this thread, I think I'm just completing line 2.

The worm lives here. No other forum may have the worm.

 

[lindsay]

Bruce, I'm afraid I wasn't reacting specifically to your comment. I was feeling like there was a disproportionate amount of attention being paid to very superficial questions. It is one thing to change the "look" of a website, and it is quite another to offer vital content.

Do you think newcomers are much influenced by appearances? It takes me nano-seconds to separate the real from the unreal, the good from the mediocre, the useful from the useless. I believe most people operate the same way.

Absolutely central to this whole discussion is Hexagram 48, the Well. You can move the town, you can build your fancy new mansions wherever you like, even in the boundless desert or on a polar icecap - but you can't move the well. And everyone needs water.

So what is the state of the well? Is the water cold and clear? Or is it muddy and full of big old fish? That is my question. If it is fresh and pure, the animals will come to drink. It doesn't much matter what King Google does or doesn't do.

So how is the well?

Lindsay

 

[hilary]

Heading towards line 5. Thank you for asking. For much of last year there was mud and an absence of birds, but things are flowing again. I'm not forgetting the need for periodic re-lining, though, nor the desirability of a clear-minded King.

 

[lindsay]

Hilary, this is very good news. Line 6 cannot fail to come!

Lindsay

 

[bruce_g]

We can discuss worm royalties. There's a book and film deal in the works.

Lindsay, well that's a good question, but that's a matter Hilary's target demo. The well can't be changed, but the presentation determines who comes to it. Pure academics may prefer or even insist on an academic looking well. New Agers seek their own look and feel. It's all the same water, no? Or does the Yi hold the lock and key to the well? And, which segment of Yi students, enthusiasts and users are we referring to? Water is available to all, not just to one segment, and in that regard, I think this site offers a very clean and free flowing well. I'm not just referring to the Community/forum, but the whole site. Maybe it won't offer a "full meal deal" to everyone, but it offers serious students and casual users alike a hardy drink.

Btw, old fish are an excellent sign of a healthy body of water. Where a lake gets into trouble is when too many "dinks" gobble up all the forage, including one another.

 

[Sparhawk]

We can discuss worm royalties. There's a book and film deal in the works.

I want to be your agent! Only 5% commission (all others charge 10%)

L

 

[bruce_g]

View attachment 265

 

[hilary]

By the way... about 6 finding its 35. It occurs to me that 6-ish reactions have been the fuel all the way along the line. This design won't do, that bright idea looks all wrong on the page, not like that, no no noooo... Useful for getting new things started (''noble one, starting up new work, ponders the beginning"), no use for completing anything.

I've disputed the standstill out of existence by escaping to the 300 households of my own town ... and then arguing manages to mean 'good fortune from the source'. That - line 5 - is when it connects with 64. Right. It's a website, not a printed book. It doesn't do 'finalised'. And the way Dawud's coding this for me, it'll be possible to change any element on all pages, any time, by changing one file. 6.5 - Kaizen-ish? It definitely has the effect of getting my perfectionism under control by deferring it indefinitely. Phew.

 

[bruce_g]

Sounds right.

 

[Sparhawk]

Behold!! A happy, and very dead, worm...

L

 

[bruce_g]

LOL.. you know, I went to working on an image of Wormyi, hanging out of a tequila bottle or glass, last night. Couldn't get it the way I wanted, so deleted it. And here you have it: a sign from the great Wormyi himself.

Ok, foxhopper, you are officially Wormyi's agent. 5%, don't forget!

 

[heylise]

What I LIKE about Clarity is, that it looks human. A website of 'someone', a real and living person.

Many forums are either very sophisticated, with a ton-sur-ton mix of greys and pale blues and medium blues.

Or they have a very dark background and give you the impression you got lost in a strange dark city.

Here it looks safe and neither above or below my head.

LiSe

 

[lindsay]

Yes, I agree with Lise completely.

There is an institutional, dogmatic aspect of the Yi I personally do not find very inviting or appealing. The Yi is so old, so encrusted with traditions and theories, that it is no easy task to break through all the shells that encase it. Here at Clarity there is space to brush the past aside, and approach the Yi in a direct, personal way. We are not required to worship sacred cows or lifeless idols. We are welcome to bring our own ideas with us, but Clarity is pretty much an open market – ideas are bought and sold on their own merits at the day’s going rate.

Also the Yi is especially prone to system-building. Its symbols are comprehensive and open-ended. But again there is no stress on systematic thinking here. I like that. People here are comfortable with holding more than one interpretation in their minds. They are not afraid to embrace contradiction without apology.

I also think the Yi lends itself to much false expertise and posturing. What is there in the Yi to be an expert about? I am as guilty as others of laying down lines in the sand, but deep in my heart I know the tide always comes in. There is nothing at Clarity that encourages this self-aggrandizing tendency.

Once you get down to the core of it, the Yi is one of the most flexible and enlightening books ever written. But Clarity is the only website I know that acknowledges this great fact.

All of this (and more) is part of Hilary’s wisdom. She created this site and willed it into existence. It is not an accident. And, contrary to what some may think, it is not a community creation. It is the continuing unfolding of a personal vision. It is the translation of an individual personality into cyberspace.

That is why, as Lise points out more concretely, the look and feel of Clarity is not really just an aesthetic choice. Other sites may look more polished, but they have no soul, no vitality. Clarity is the sure expression of an idea that such a good place as this might be made to exist. Hilary’s idea.

 

[hilary]

GULP.


I'm not at all sure about it not being a community creation. The personal vision eek may have started in isolation back in the day, but there's been a good bit of 31 in its 32. Maybe that includes attracting a bunch of people I like very much.

Swift update on the well-lining: Dawud, sensible man, has gone away with his family over the weekend. I sent him an email full of requests and things to try before he went, and he'll be getting started on them on Monday. Once we have a finalised version, I get to paste in all the content (I'm busy rewriting chunks of it now), and then it's forum templating time. I'll keep you posted.

 

[chung_fu]

My £0.02

Hi everybody, this is my first post, so please be gentle with me.
Of the two versions I definitely prefer version 2.
On the logo issue, maybe combining a more gradual blue fade that spans the full height of the symbol and word "Clarity" would allow the halo around both to be more visible, perhaps giving them more presence?
I agree with many others who think the blue starts too dark, and the yellow isn't warm enough. In my mind's eye I'm thinking of a pale straw colour (yarrow-stalk yellow?).
Regarding the tabs and bulletted links, my preference is for buttons (or just the section name) rather than tabs. Especially if they have drop-down menus when you mouse-over them.
But sticking with the tabbed layout, I would suggest no need for the rounded corners on the left and right of the shaded yellow band at the top of the content if it were to extend across the whole page. This might also allow you to shift the left margin over some more, releasing some space for a right-hand navigation bar. Is it possible to position the tabs from the right of the page? They do seem a bit lost where they are now. The drop-down menu thing could apply just as well to tabs as to buttons I think.
In general though, I do like the look and feel. To me it does feel friendly and welcoming.

At this time of year here in Derbyshire there is a local tradition of "Well-dressing", where wells are decorated in celebration and to encourage the spirits to provide good water for the next year. I doesn't change the well, but it raises awareness of the importance of the well. That may seem a little off-topic, but it occured to me there was a similarity.

Best of luck with getting the new site up and running, Hilary. Regardless of the bottle, I know the wine will be excellent

 

[hilary]

Hello Chung Fu. Thank you for this!

I'd never heard of well-dressing. It sounds exactly on topic - I'm glad I've got the right time of year for it.

I've asked Dawud to try out a gradient that extends right down to the tabs. The tricky part would be avoiding the 'incoming storms' effect I got with version 1. Even with paler colours, we might still end up with a 'typical English weather' look We can see what he comes up with...

I wasn't sure about the tabs when I first saw them, but they're growing on me. (Can you get ointment for that?) They look less 'lost' and floating when the central block is made narrower as a whole, yellow band and all. I've been fiddling and tweaking when I really should be delegating and writing content instead. Hm - let me just upload the tweaked version to staging_2...

...there. I think it's a little better already. Oh, ignore the photo at the bottom, I know it looks daft. There must be a way to have photos not look daft, and I'll find it eventually.

Changing tab colours is an image job, so I'll definitely leave that to Dawud.

The difficulty with positioning anything from the right of the page, is that it's in a different place for different browser resolutions. So basically you can either align your design to the left of the screen, like the current arrangement, or you can centre it. Centring is more likely to look at least faintly sensible across today's larger and larger screens (blank space either side, instead of either a great expanse of blank space on the right, or a mile-wide text block), so I'm changing over to that.

My husband keeps talking about drop-down menus, too, so it must be an excellent idea . I just think it's marginally less user-friendly than having the links for the current section visible on the page. It's also considerably less search-engine friendly, and I would like to try to enlighten the King.

Right-hand bar. Hm. It wouldn't always be navigation, as not all sections have the tertiary nav, but it could be useful for testimonial and quotes'n'stuff. I wonder if Dawud would kill me if I asked him to experiment with that, too...

 

[Sparhawk]

I like this latest version, Hilary. I find is more "airy"...

L