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Hex 23 main meaning

dobro p

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I've been translating Hex 23 as 'Stripping Away' in the same way you remove flesh from a fish skeleton, but this morning I'm thinking it can mean 'reduce'. Not 'withdrawing' from something (that's Hex 33) but reducing the amount of time or effort you put into something you're doing already.

Whatcha think?
 

Sparhawk

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Hmmm, does your question relates to the name of the hexagram or the whole of its text and meaning?


L
 

Trojina

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I've been translating Hex 23 as 'Stripping Away' in the same way you remove flesh from a fish skeleton, but this morning I'm thinking it can mean 'reduce'. Not 'withdrawing' from something (that's Hex 33) but reducing the amount of time or effort you put into something you're doing already.

Whatcha think?

Nah reducing something is 41. 23 is total death of whatever it is - not putting less effort into something you're doing but not doing it anymore IMO
 

sophie

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Javary and Faure translate it as "Usure", which means what's used up, entropy - it needs pruning down to its bare essentials. Whether it survives or not depends on its inherent quality - is it a perennial or an annual? Some plants grow back after being cut down - in fact, they need it - and some die. The changing lines seem to indicate gradual growing back of strength and vigour once the stripping has taken place.
 

Sparhawk

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Javary and Faure translate it as "Usure", which means what's used up, entropy -

LOL! Good one. Javary is a clever translator, indeed.

Main Entry: usu·ry [SIZE=-1]Pronunciation Guide[/SIZE]
Pronunciation:
primarystress.gif
yüzh(
schwa.gif
)r
emacr.gif
, -ri

Function: noun
Inflected Form(s):
-es
Etymology: Middle English, from Medieval Latin usuria, from Latin usura use, interest, usury (from usus -- past participle of uti to use -- + -ura -ure) + -ia -y -- more at [SIZE=-1]USE[/SIZE]
1 archaic : a premium or increase paid or stipulated for a loan of money or goods : [SIZE=-1]INTEREST[/SIZE] <thou shalt not lend upon usury to thy brother -- Deut. 23:19 (Authorized Version)>
2 : the lending out of money with an interest charge for its use : the taking or practice of taking interest
3 : an unconscionable or exorbitant rate or amount of interest; specifically : interest in excess of a legal rate charged to a borrower for the use of money
Yes, I can see where 2 and 3 apply to H23... :D

L
 

sophie

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Hehe, yes, very clever! It's a play on words, of course. It doesn't really work in English, because usury only means, well - usury. I rather like the imagery of the tree pruned, but usury would be one way of seeing 23 in action...fleecing the innocent (or not-so-innocent).
 
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bruce_g

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I've been translating Hex 23 as 'Stripping Away' in the same way you remove flesh from a fish skeleton, but this morning I'm thinking it can mean 'reduce'. Not 'withdrawing' from something (that's Hex 33) but reducing the amount of time or effort you put into something you're doing already.

Whatcha think?

Reducing with the aim on revealing what's beneath, works for me.

Pruning also works, because you don't prune for sake of cutting off, but to allow the root to feed what is still living, in affect generously fortifying what is below.
 
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lightofreason

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I've been translating Hex 23 as 'Stripping Away' in the same way you remove flesh from a fish skeleton, but this morning I'm thinking it can mean 'reduce'. Not 'withdrawing' from something (that's Hex 33) but reducing the amount of time or effort you put into something you're doing already.

Whatcha think?

prune. cut back to basics; remove chaff from wheat.
its opposite is 43 - spread the word, seed, send out cuttings.

Infrastructure is described by analogy to the generic qualities of hex 24 and so the sense of return. Pruning is a return to the core, basic, principles etc and so the last bastion of 'true' order.

Chris.
 

dobro p

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'Pruning' is good. Cutting back a living system. Don't go too far.
 

dobro p

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Unless your aim really is tabula rasa. Sometimes it's necessary.

I'm less interested in my own agenda at this point than I am in understanding the basic meaning that the Yi expresses. Let's say that the basic meaning of 23 is something like 'removing in the sense of pruning'. Okay, so look at 23.1 - what does it mean to remove and prune bedlegs? Or 23.2 - what does it mean to remove and prune the bedframe? It means, I think, something like removing or pruning away the foundation on which you rest. But can you think of some examples of this? Cuz that's what I need to really and truly understand the Yi. I need the generic meaning of the line, plus some examples to ground it/earth it for me. So, about 23.1 and 23.2 (or any other line in the hex, for that matter) - does it refer to getting back to tabula rasa? (See, I don't think we start from tabula rasa in the first place; I think we come minted with the divine imprint - and that's why I don't believe in wiping the slate clean - I think I can wipe the slate free of dobro, but that's all.)
 
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lightofreason

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the stripping of the bed is a metaphor for removing belief elements/values in that we rest on those values - we sleep on our beliefs etc. The emphasis on a priest/priestess is on cutting back acquired 'adornments', stripping away sheets of beliefs/exaggerations etc to get back to the core faith/beliefs we rest upon (23 shares space with 02 and so covers a foundation of devotion to another/others. The mountain top brings out a focus on discernment, quality control, applied to the devotion and so is conditional, whereas 02 is unconditional in its devotion etc)

Emotionally for 23 we have "with/from fear (earth bottom) comes discernment (mountain top)"

Devotion to others is a refinement of fear in that we get protection from and can assert identity through, another/others. Thus the sense of 23 as 'housekeeping' in its under-played form, pruning in its medium form, and hard-core, intense 'stripping' in its exaggerated form.

If we do not 'housekeep' then we get swamped by local variations, 'good idea at the time' stuff and so can be swallowed up by such and in doing so lose identity where our beliefs set the foundations for identity, especially here where we get identity through our devotions to another/others.

Chris.
 
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bruce_g

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Dobro,

I think it depends on whether you're the pruner or the pruned which determines what the lines can mean. Splitting the bed can be something done intentionally, such as casting away established securities. It can also seem as though fate (or whatever) splits our resting place for us (gee, thanks, right?). But either way we are forced to draw from something greater (don't know if greater is really the right word) than what has been stripped.

I had a 23 dream a few years ago. I was in the jungle in a Viet Nam war zone setting. I crawled through the thick brush and came to a small clearing. There, members of my own army were flaying the skin off their prisoners/enemies. I was horrified and deeply disturbed at this site, and to think it was my own comrades who were doing that. But as I watched, I noticed that this was being done not out of cruelty but out of a sense of science, of wanting to know what laid beneath the skin.

The dream definitely destroyed my resting place for a few days, but it was showing me a couple of things which were soon to come: a loss of prior identity association, for one, but there were other things, which you could say were being peeled off me. In fact, there was a significant paradigm shift in my life; horrible at the outset, remarkably curious as it developed, as in the dream.

Remember the Simon and Garfunkel lyric: "I'd rather be a hammer than a nail. If I could, I surely would"? I see 23 as being a lot like that. Sometimes we're the hammer, sometimes the nail. Or, sometimes the ax - cutting people and things out of our life - and sometimes we are cut off.

One aspect, which seems not to receive the attention it's due is the benevolent side, the "giving generously to what is below" side. Hope and vision come when one needs them, not when one is resting securely in their bed. It's sorta like God pulling the blanket out from under you: it tests your faith and confidence. That virgin rose at the top symbolizes that, at least to me.
 

lienshan

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I've been translating Hex 23 as 'Stripping Away' in the same way you remove flesh from a fish skeleton, but this morning I'm thinking it can mean 'reduce'. Not 'withdrawing' from something (that's Hex 33) but reducing the amount of time or effort you put into something you're doing already.
According to Stephen Karcher the ideogram shows a knife and the chinese "stripping away flesh" sign. When doing so one have to be very carefull and cut to the bone but not into the bone. To me it's not a question of what to do but how to do. This is too my primary association when looking at the solid trigram Mountain above the yielding trigram Earth. The hexagram 23 construction looks unstable. One have to be very carefull not to turn over the stack of lines.
To me the lines 1, 2 and 4 tell, what happens when cutting into the bone :eek:uch:
 

rosada

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I went back to 23 in the Memorization threads just to see what we said about it there. The underlying theme for me then was that there had been some misunderstanding and it wasn't resolved with just one post, there was quite a bit of back and forth posting -stripping away - until the confusion was lifted and clarity restored.
 

dobro p

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Dobro,

I think it depends on whether you're the pruner or the pruned which determines what the lines can mean. Splitting the bed can be something done intentionally, such as casting away established securities. It can also seem as though fate (or whatever) splits our resting place for us (gee, thanks, right?). But either way we are forced to draw from something greater (don't know if greater is really the right word) than what has been stripped.

I had a 23 dream a few years ago. I was in the jungle in a Viet Nam war zone setting. I crawled through the thick brush and came to a small clearing. There, members of my own army were flaying the skin off their prisoners/enemies. I was horrified and deeply disturbed at this site, and to think it was my own comrades who were doing that. But as I watched, I noticed that this was being done not out of cruelty but out of a sense of science, of wanting to know what laid beneath the skin.

The dream definitely destroyed my resting place for a few days, but it was showing me a couple of things which were soon to come: a loss of prior identity association, for one, but there were other things, which you could say were being peeled off me. In fact, there was a significant paradigm shift in my life; horrible at the outset, remarkably curious as it developed, as in the dream.

Remember the Simon and Garfunkel lyric: "I'd rather be a hammer than a nail. If I could, I surely would"? I see 23 as being a lot like that. Sometimes we're the hammer, sometimes the nail. Or, sometimes the ax - cutting people and things out of our life - and sometimes we are cut off.

One aspect, which seems not to receive the attention it's due is the benevolent side, the "giving generously to what is below" side. Hope and vision come when one needs them, not when one is resting securely in their bed. It's sorta like God pulling the blanket out from under you: it tests your faith and confidence. That virgin rose at the top symbolizes that, at least to me.


There's a ton of sense in this. Sometimes acting upon, sometimes acted upon, yes.

And the lower lines use bed image because they're lower foundation we rest on; the upper lines use royal and spiritual imagery because they're higher aspects of the stripping away.

I think your dream sums up the image nicely. Ouch.
 

dobro p

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According to Stephen Karcher the ideogram shows a knife and the chinese "stripping away flesh" sign. When doing so one have to be very carefull and cut to the bone but not into the bone. To me it's not a question of what to do but how to do. This is too my primary association when looking at the solid trigram Mountain above the yielding trigram Earth. The hexagram 23 construction looks unstable. One have to be very carefull not to turn over the stack of lines.
To me the lines 1, 2 and 4 tell, what happens when cutting into the bone :eek:uch:

Yes, not what to do but how to do it. I like Chris's 'pruning' idea because it's a living system you're dealing with - you cut away just the right amount - too much damages the plant, but too little doesn't get the job done.
 

rosada

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Considering that 23. Stripping Away follows 22. Grace suggests to me that after we have a vision, an ideal, a goal to aim form, then we know what we should discard. I also note that the situation is discribed as being one where it does not further one to go anywhere. Like the Happiness of 22 can be found in one's own backyard.

there's some famous quote where the artist is asked how he came to be able to create such beautiful life like sculptures. Something like, "How do you come to be able to carve such an elephant?' and the responce is, "Simple, I cut away everything that is not an elephant."
 

kaya

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Hello!

Does anyone knows what the sixt line of 23 means:

The topmost line, undivided, shows its subject as a great fruit which has not been eaten. The superior man finds the people again as a chariot carrying him. The small men by the course overthrow their own dwellings.

Ikra
 

getojack

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The fruit that is uneaten suggests to me that the one in this position does nothing while the foundations crumble around him. If he's smart, he takes a fast carraige out of town. If he's not, he is stripped of everything.
 
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bruce_g

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It's said that a millionaire who loses his money will always find ways to make it again, while a pauper would always find another way to lose it. One is always riding in a sedan, the other is always stripping his hut.

The uneaten fruit, as I see it, is symbolic of not relying on things which can be lost, but on what eternally lives. The fact that none of us can say exactly what that is is why it's uneaten.
 

bradford

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I've been translating Hex 23 as 'Stripping Away' in the same way you remove flesh from a fish skeleton, but this morning I'm thinking it can mean 'reduce'. Not 'withdrawing' from something (that's Hex 33) but reducing the amount of time or effort you put into something you're doing already. Whatcha think?

Lemme see if I got your question right: Are you trying to lighten your load? Are you trying to strip away all the superfluous and misleading meanings to get to the main meaning?
 

Sparhawk

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Lemme see if I got your question right: Are you trying to lighten your load? Are you trying to strip away all the superfluous and misleading meanings to get to the main meaning?

That was more or less my question also...

L
 

getojack

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The uneaten fruit, as I see it, is symbolic of not relying on things which can be lost, but on what eternally lives. The fact that none of us can say exactly what that is is why it's uneaten.

What do you mean? I can tell you exactly what the fruit is... it's the top nine of Stripping Away. Just take a big bite out of the middle of that solid line, and you'll find yourself in a wide open field...
 

bradford

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Hello!
Does anyone knows what the sixth line of 23 means:
The topmost line, undivided, shows its subject as a great fruit which has not been eaten. The superior man finds the people again as a chariot carrying him. The small men by the course overthrow their own dwellings. Ikra

Ever watch TV coverage of a riot in a ghetto or slum?
Are they burning, looting and destroying the houses of their oppressors?
No - they are destroying their own housing.

As to the young noble, he finds a way to be uplifted even by misfortune,
like someone playing a bear market successfully, because he is grounded.

As to the great fruit, see Sappho, fr 105a -
The pickers just can't reach it. It gets to become mulch and a new tree.
 

dobro p

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Lemme see if I got your question right: Are you trying to lighten your load? Are you trying to strip away all the superfluous and misleading meanings to get to the main meaning?


Hey, welcome back!

I was exploring the possibility of the first option you describe. But now I'm thinking 23 is most definitely the second.
 
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bruce_g

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What do you mean? I can tell you exactly what the fruit is... it's the top nine of Stripping Away. Just take a big bite out of the middle of that solid line, and you'll find yourself in a wide open field...

One can only be a virgin once. The last fruit on top can't be eaten. Perhaps it can, however, be realized.

So as not to put anyone up in arms, I refer to this as metaphor. It's not intended by me to be preachy, but it speaks to me of line 6. Consider Jesus Christ as the Sage or Great Man, etc, if the personage of Jesus doesn't feel right to you. It's from 1 Cor, verses 3.11-15.

"For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ. Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble; every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward (cart). If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss (stripped hut): but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire."

No matter what ones particular belief in the afterlife is, unless ones believes in no afterlife, it seems to come down to the same idea of reward/punishment, karma of some kind. I view the above as the same teaching or affirmation as line 6.

If you consider that during this one lifetime we undergo many deaths and rebirths, many strippings, it can apply each time.
 

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