Hex 54.4 ->19 and relationship possibilities

[donjuan]

Hi all,

I inquired with the Yi about the potential of a relationship between me and someone very special to me. She is currently in a relationship, but has expressed strong feelings for me. We talk frequently and have a deep emtional connection. I asked the "big" question to see how far this would go - I asked if the future includes her and I marrying each other. The Yi answered with hexagram 54.4 changing to 19.

From what I have read, 54 is about being in an inferior position. This makes sense, considering that I am not the man that she is presently in a realtionship with. However, line 4 does appears to infer that, with time, we can/may/have the possibility or being together. And 19, being Approach, and line 4 of 19 reading as "complete approach" apprears to back this up.

I admit I have a lot of emotions invested in this relationship, and I may not be approaching this rationally, so I ask if anyone can shed some light on this for me.

Thank you all in advance.

Best Regards,

Don.

 

[donjuan]

you are NOT going to believe this!

Hi all (again),

I just asked the Yi the same question: "Does the future include "her" and I marrying each other?" and the answer was hexagram 32 unchanging!

Correct me if I am wrong, but this hexagram signifies a long term relationship, one that can result in a marriage. That IS encouraging....

Does anyone have any input about this reading?

Thanks to all.

Warmest regards,

Don

 

[dobro p]

"I asked if the future includes her and I marrying each other. The Yi answered with hexagram 54.4"

Don't be worrying about marriage just yet. If it happens, it won't happen right away. But the fact that you drew Hex 54 (Marrying Maiden) suggests that marriage is at least an issue, if not actually on the cards.

I'm not going to interpret your other question. I don't think you should mess around and ask the same question of the Yi before you've worked with the answer to the first question and worked the results into your life. So I'm not going to mess around with interpreting that kind of question.

 

[dobro p]

Keep in mind, however, that if you marry her, you'll have to change your nickname on this board. Husbands are simply not allowed to call themselves 'Don Juan'. It isn't done. lol

 

[donjuan]

LOL! I had not thought of that! Perhaps Don Swan? Swans are reputed to be monogamous....Actually, I chose that nickname because I saw him as a man of passion.

 

[donjuan]

Dobro,

Do you have any comment about the readings?

Thanks,

Don

 

[donjuan]

Dobro,

My apologies, I saw your reply about the readings after I posted my last message.

Believe me, I mean no disrespect of, or to, the Yi. I did not realize that asking the same question could be a premature thing to do. I had always interpreted it as a way for the Yi to address another component of the topic.

Again, many thanks.

Don

 

[bradford]

I asked if the future includes her and I marrying each other. The Yi answered with hexagram 54.4 changing to 19. Don.

I would submit that this is advising practicing as much patience as you can stand prior to making a more complete commitment. This will show you more about each other. You might, for instance, want to take your time with a woman who will try connecting with someone else while she is still involved in another relationship. This could be a test you could succceed in and flunk at the same time.

 

[dobro p]

I like Bradford's answer better than mine. Good stuff.

 

[willowfox]

"I asked if the future includes her and I marrying each other. The Yi answered with hexagram 54.4 changing to 19."

Hex 54.4 says that she will not throw herself at just anybody, she will wait and wait until she is sure that she has foumd the right man for the job.

Hex 19 says in the beginning you will both get along okay, she will let you talk with her and maybe she will allow you to take her out on a date. But it will not last.

I see no chance of you ever marrying this lady. Her future lies elsewhere and so does yours.

 

[willowfox]

I forgot to mention that the text for hex 19 mentions that your acquaintance with this lady will be all over by June next year.

"From what I have read, 54 is about being in an inferior position."

Getting hex 54.4 is more about what you are thinking, it shows that she is very much in your thoughts (infatuation perhaps), but the line itself says that she thinks otherwise about this story, and you.

 

[Lilly-La]

I forgot to mention that the text for hex 19 mentions that your acquaintance with this lady will be all over by June next year.

willowfox, how do you know? Where do you draw that from?

 

[willowfox]

Hex 19 says that in the beginning things/affairs will go okay but as the 8th month approaches so does misfortune. The good luck/progress that he is experiencing at the moment will not last, slowly but surely a gradual decline is now setting in. Therefore, 8 months from October, 2006 is June, 2007. After the new year, the rot really sets into this affair (it is not even a relationship).

 

[hilary]

Just a note - there is more than one way to interpret 'completion in the eighth month, misfortune.' Willowfox has interpreted it as eight months from the time of asking. Alfred Huang suggests two further possibilities: the eighth month of the calendar, or eight months from the month represented by hexagram 19 - which takes you to the sixth month.

The eighth month (of the year) is the month of harvest. I believe this indicates that misfortune comes if/when you concentrate on getting 'something to show for it', instead of the continuing process.

 

[jesed]

In deed...
You can undertand the "8 month" as literal calendaric reference, or as metaphora.

1.- As a metaphora... 19 is like the time to get ready for a new spring. If you try to get ready for a new spring when you are in the end of summer..you had lost your time and you are out of reality. That is missfortunated.

2.- As a calendaric reference: if one uses the movement of the Post Heaven order (microcosmical tool) one have:
a) 19 and 20 form a pair
b) Objective tendency of development for 19 is 54 (misfortunated evolution)
c) 19 starts in Lake and ends in Earth = 8 trigrams

so, you have 8 trigrams to fullfill the path of 19 and get into 20 due to your subjective choices; otherwise the objective tendency would rule and you can end in 54.

But here is one important thing: literally or metaphorically... the future depends on the interaction of objective circumstances and subjective choices. One ALWAYS have the posibility to avoid the misfortune... even when the answer points to a 100% objective situation (unchanging hexagrams), one can avoid misfortune by adapting and not fighting against the objective situation.


Now, about the concrete situation. I hadn't comment, because I belive is better for Donjuan figure out the real and present situation, than ask for posible but uncertain future; and, since I had suggested this already weeks ago, I had nothing more to comment.

Best wishes

 

[willowfox]

"Just a note - there is more than one way to interpret 'completion in the eighth month, misfortune.' Willowfox has interpreted it as eight months from the time of asking. Alfred Huang suggests two further possibilities: the eighth month of the calendar, or eight months from the month represented by hexagram 19 - which takes you to the sixth month."

I have found others methods as well as the ones mentioned above to calculate the 8th month. But I have only found one method that makes the reading personal.


I take 8 months from when the question was asked, ie. the birth of the question because it makes it personal whereas the other methods mentioned are non personal dates that can apply to anyone and everyone who receives hex 19 as the answer.

As the question was asked around the middle of October, the birth of your question, then 8 months from that time would be the middle of June. But I believe that the decay in your situation increases day by day ,starting from the time of the question and that the complete completion of the decay occurs by June 2007. This then makes this reading personal to you and you only.

 

[dobro p]

"I take 8 months from when the question was asked, ie. the birth of the question because it makes it personal whereas the other methods mentioned are non personal dates that can apply to anyone and everyone who receives hex 19 as the answer."

Umm, not exactly. Hilary's point was that she interprets the eighth month image as symbolic of something else; by contrast, you're interpreting the eighth month very, very literally. You're calling it 'personal', but in fact it's being literal. See, it's possible to interpret the Yi's images as symbols of something rather than literally, and still be 'personal'. More personal, in fact, cuz if you interpret the Yi's images literally, you're stuck in a 'one size fits all' approach. If however you use the images symbolically, it frees you up to really, truly personalise a reading.

 

[willowfox]

"The eighth month (of the year) is the month of harvest. I believe this indicates that misfortune comes if/when you concentrate on getting 'something to show for it', instead of the continuing process."

Well, Hilary suggests that the 8th month represents the month of harvest, a time of completion. In regards to the question, it would mean the completion of the affair. She also said that misfortune comes if/when a person concentrates on getting something to show for it, this guy has marriage on his mind, that is his end result. I don't think that you can call harvesting a continuing process though, it is a one time business. But hex 19 suggests that the thing that he is after, a marriage, is slowly but surely eluding him, there will be no harvest/marriage for this guy(not with the woman in question anyway, someone else sure).

"See, it's possible to interpret the Yi's images as symbols of something rather than literally, and still be 'personal'. More personal, in fact, cuz if you interpret the Yi's images literally, you're stuck in a 'one size fits all' approach. If however you use the images symbolically, it frees you up to really, truly personalise a reading."

I am sorry but can you please apply what you said above to the question to give me an idea of what you mean, because I don't understand how you would make the answer that I gave this guy anymore personal. The question was simple, so the answer should also be simple, which in actual fact it is, it says this affair is a non starter.

 

[dobro p]

One step at a time.

Hilary: "The eighth month (of the year) is the month of harvest. I believe this indicates that misfortune comes if/when you concentrate on getting 'something to show for it', instead of the continuing process."

Willowfox: Well, Hilary suggests that the 8th month represents the month of harvest, a time of completion. In regards to the question, it would mean the completion of the affair.

dobro: No, it doesn't necessarily mean the completion of the affair. Hilary says it means aiming for the 'harvest' in the situation - that is to say, trying to get a payoff for yourself out of the situation rather than doing things for their own sake. In the context of the situation in this thread, that could mean his reaching for a quick consummation of the relationship. You've misunderstood what Hilary was saying, I think. But if you'd like Hilary to apply her take on the imagery to the thread's original question, you'll have to ask her. If you want my take on it, you just have to scroll up higher in the thread.

But no matter whether we talk about your reading of the toss, or Hilary's, or mine, the issue I'm talking to you about is something different - it's the issue of whether you choose to interpret the images in the Yi literally or symbolically. When the Yi says '8 months', you have a choice. You can choose to think it means:

1 something is going to happen in 8 calendar months

2 something is going to happen some time in the future, anywhere from 8 hours to 8 years.

My money's on the second alternative. The Yi offers symbols, not formulas.

 

[hilary]

Willowfox, you're quite right that you've offered a reading and I've offered a general (and non-personalised) comment on Hexagram 19. :bows:

Dobro, you understand what I'm saying - and anticipate what I'm likely to say next - with uncanny accuracy. Thanks! (I think I'll go on a very long holiday, now, and you can write some blog posts.)

One of the Songs speaks of what each month is for, and identifies the eighth with harvest. And no, I certainly didn't mean to suggest that with harvest comes completion. After the harvest, you gather the grain in. Then you thresh it and store it. Soon enough, you'll be ploughing and sowing again, and then weeding and irrigating and chasing the goats off...

In other words, there is an ongoing cycle of creation and growth; you can't step outside it, and it won't adjust to fit with our schedules. Sometimes this hexagram seems to pick up on people wanting to rush to the eighth month - like opening the oven door when the cake's half-done. Sometimes it points to an exclusive focus on tangible results, neglecting the need to take those 'results' inside to store them.

The marrying maiden has a certain poise and confidence when moved by 19, and is not going to take her decisions on someone else's timetable.

 

[willowfox]

I am afraid that you have misunderstood me, I am not taking the 8 months literally but symbolically. The 8 could mean 8 hours, 8 days, 8 weeks, 8 months, 8 years but because of the nature of the question and weighing up the additional information provided, I selected 8 months as the time factor here. It could be as short as 8 weeks but as hex 19 represents January/February, I was more generous, because I believe that after Jan/Feb it is really the beginning of the end. But I don't consider the affair will end on the 16th of June, 2007 precisely, this hex suggests that the affair slowly decays during a period of 8 months, up until June, but it could end at anytime during that time period, there is no fixed date for it to end during those 8 months.

No hex is valid forever, every hex has a sell by date attached to it. It would be utterly ridiculous to think that just because one received a favourable answer it would last forever. Therefore, hex 19 has a time factor attached to it, which is 8 somethings. So, one must consider the question and then apply the appropriate timing.

Hilary, I don't see this non relationship as cyclic, it has a definite beginning and ending, after the harvest, this guy will not be taking any grain home, for him, it has been a lousy harvest. It started good but there was a lot of rain and storms which flattened his corn/his dreams. Okay, the guy's behaviour maybe cyclic because he will have to go out and plant some new seeds in another field.

 

[bruce_g]

Hilary’s comments on 19 and 8 months: misfortune, would have served me well some four years ago. Funny, because I was thinking about this very thing only hours ago, and then I see it being discussed here. We (she and I) were so entirely focused on the harvest that we merely glossed over the essential prelude of really learning about one another and determining our compatibility before taking a giant leap toward commitment. In this case, “8 months” took about 3 months from the time 19 was received, before misfortune overtook the relationship. We simply skipped too many steps in our enthusiastic courtship to bring about an abundant harvest. Further, I don’t think the relationship could have ever worked, even had we not rushed the process along, but at least we would have come to knowing this without incurring great personal losses.

Bradford confirmed this earlier on this thread: “I would submit that this is advising practicing as much patience as you can stand prior to making a more complete commitment. This will show you more about each other.”

These days I view the promise of 19’s supreme success with a raised eyebrow.

 

[RindaR]

I forgot to mention that the text for hex 19 mentions that your acquaintance with this lady will be all over by June next year.

um, this does not seem to be presented as a metaphor, it's quite concrete.


Hilary does not say that this relationship specifically is cyclic, I think, rather that it is part of a cycle. IMO, one of the reasons that Yi remains so valid over the centuries and in our moments and hours is that there are these cycles and variations of cycles that go on like fractals forever in time, and at multivalent levels of reality.

Rinda

 

[willowfox]

"I asked if the future includes her and I marrying each other."

The very question that Don Juan asked suggests a rushed job, he wants to get to the harvest before the relationship has had a chance to start, let alone grow. No foundations have been laid, the potential relationship, if it even starts, will have no support and therefore it will collapse easily. She is still in a relationship with another man, so the whole story is still pie in the sky, no deal has been done yet, and the clock is already ticking.
Supreme success in the beginning because he has met someone special but she is not free and he is in a hurry(infatuation and a case of being unrealistic, plus wishful thinking), all leading to misfortune, coming soon.

 

[willowfox]

"Hilary does not say that this relationship specifically is cyclic, I think, rather that it is part of a cycle."

It is his behaviour that is cyclic, he is running in a circle looking for Miss Right.

 

[RindaR]

"Hilary does not say that this relationship specifically is cyclic, I think, rather that it is part of a cycle."

It is his behaviour that is cyclic, he is running in a circle looking for Miss Right.

Mebbe he is running in circles, I don't know, but it seems to me that the point being made is that he is not in tune with the demands of the natural cycle of relationships here. I think we are making the same point as a conclusion, and perhaps you've intuited that conclusion without making clear the connections between the text and the situation in question??

see LiSe's version: http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/hex_49-64/hex_e_54.htm

 

[donjuan]

great dialogue!

Hello everyone,

Thank you all, for such a great dialogue about this topic. I have learned much, reading all of your comments and input.

The "take home" message that I have gained from this conversation is that I really need to stop trying to accomplish a goal, or reach a finish line, or "harvest a crop" when it comes to this relationship. Being a goal-oriented person, I can see how I have taken the same perspective wrt to this relationship. Also, being one who HATES uncertainty, I would obviously like to have a clear answer about the outcome of the relationship. But, I realize, that is not possible. Truly, is it ever possible for any relationship/friendship/venture, etc?

Again, I thank you for all your insight. It gave me a new perspective about this relationship. Based on this, I am going to approach things with a much more "laid back" attitude. Not that it means I am going to neglect her, or I, but that I will let things take their own course, and not try to "force" things. If I were to draw a metaphor, I will treat the both of us at flowing rivers, taking our own paths, moving naturally along the path of least resistance.

Who knows? Perhaps our paths will never "merge". But then again, they might.....but it has to happen naturally, not due to someone forcing it to happen.

After all, the best friendships are those that are natural, comfortable and unforced.

Many, many thanks to all of you.....

My warmest regards,

Don.

 

[bruce_g]

Hello everyone,

Thank you all, for such a great dialogue about this topic. I have learned much, reading all of your comments and input.

The "take home" message that I have gained from this conversation is that I really need to stop trying to accomplish a goal, or reach a finish line, or "harvest a crop" when it comes to this relationship. Being a goal-oriented person, I can see how I have taken the same perspective wrt to this relationship. Also, being one who HATES uncertainty, I would obviously like to have a clear answer about the outcome of the relationship. But, I realize, that is not possible. Truly, is it ever possible for any relationship/friendship/venture, etc?

Again, I thank you for all your insight. It gave me a new perspective about this relationship. Based on this, I am going to approach things with a much more "laid back" attitude. Not that it means I am going to neglect her, or I, but that I will let things take their own course, and not try to "force" things. If I were to draw a metaphor, I will treat the both of us at flowing rivers, taking our own paths, moving naturally along the path of least resistance.

Who knows? Perhaps our paths will never "merge". But then again, they might.....but it has to happen naturally, not due to someone forcing it to happen.

After all, the best friendships are those that are natural, comfortable and unforced.

Many, many thanks to all of you.....

My warmest regards,

Don.

Thanks also to you, Don, for your feedback on the interpretations. I fully agree with your summary.

 

[hilary]

Me, too.

(Bruce, I can understand your raised eyebrow at 19's 'supreme success'. If you need things to come together now, then Nearing is not such good news. Silly example: if I'm asking about a tennis match (my favourite way of practising), I expect the 19 competitor might be runner-up.)

 

[bruce_g]

Me, too.

(Bruce, I can understand your raised eyebrow at 19's 'supreme success'. If you need things to come together now, then Nearing is not such good news. Silly example: if I'm asking about a tennis match (my favourite way of practising), I expect the 19 competitor might be runner-up.)

I didn't know you played tennis! j/k

I don't know if we diviners are dogged optimists or just delusional thinkers, when it comes to interpreting Yi's messages. I think there's a tendency to gloss over warnings and embrace our wishes, and to read those wishes into our readings. As time goes by and experience accumulates, we become more realistic with ourselves, or maybe we come to accept that being a runner-up isn't the worst thing that can happen. The important thing is to stay in the game, even when knowing the eighth month isn't very far off. Then there really can be ‘supreme success’. Maybe I read too much altruism into the oracle’s core message, but these 'successes' do seem to point to something beyond winning.