Hexagram 30 and renunciation

[dobro p]

"It is the longing here then that brings the sadness. So line 5, the ruler, is sorrowing and humilty-- is acquiesence to the time--- letting it take it's course in sorrow. ??? There is not much we can do but comply???"

Dunno. There's loads about this oracle I haven't begun to work out. But I've wondered about 30.5 a few times before now. Why the connection between the sadness and the good fortune? What aspect of clinging/radiance is that? And 30.3 talks about 'lamenting' as well. I'm just speculating here, but the lamenting might be arising out of a situation that involves clinging/attachment etc.

And 30.3 talks about old age, and 30.4 talks about dying.

There seems to be a theme of 'inescapable conditions' built into a lot of 30.

 

[dharma]

Val,
<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

And I watch people ... pass judgment and offer unsolicited advice to her... ... as if it's a GOOD thing! *shakes head*
And then I watch other people praise her for her judgments and unsolicited advice... as if they're a good thing!
My question is... why? WHY? Can anyone tell me why judgments and unsolicited advice are a GOOD thing? I was always taught they're less than desirable.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

my take on it is that a person making judgments about others is tightly locked into their personal point of view which leaves no room for anything that differs even slightly. and those who step up to the plate in support of the original "judger" are merely banding together and voicing their similar-minded opinions to justify their position to themselves, but to also strengthen it to onlookers by appearing in numbers against the one being judged. but more often than not, they don't even realize that what they're doing is precisely what they so dislike seeing in others.

in fact, if you will look to this page
http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/I_Ching_community/messages/786/1616.html?1077714385

you will find just such a judgment there if you scroll down towards the end where someone said:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

one of the little pieces of gossip circulating around the film industry before I left... long before this film was in production... is that Mel Gibson's father is very outspoken in his hatred for Jews and Mel is a chip off the old block.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

and not surprisingly, someone else soon stepped up to the plate to lend their support with the following:

<BLOCKQUOTE><HR SIZE=0><!-Quote-!><FONT SIZE=1>Quote:</FONT>

Thank you so much for this link. It sounds to me like Mel Gibson's father is a repulsive racist.<!-/Quote-!><HR SIZE=0></BLOCKQUOTE>

anyway, i think have we all fallen into this trap at one time or another. we just have to recognize our propensity for snap judgments that are based on strong emotion before we can change this about ourselves. i personally always try to remember the pitfall to pointing a finger at anyone -and that is, there are always three fingers pointing back at me when i do.

 

[lenardthefast]

Hear! Hear! Demitra,

Thanks for saving me the trouble of posting an almost exact replica.

Namaste,

 

[candid]

I've noticed that the time between sadness and brightness in 30 can be almost immediate upon accepting, no, embracing one's present reality. Its like turning on a switch and suddenly the light comes on.

If one doesn't submit to reality, however, we land on line 3, and bewail our fate as an old man who has lost his youth, or else who runs out to buy a red sports car and pay up for a young woman to help him beat the pot and sing. (no small humiliation)

Its almost as though in order to catch the bird of brightness we first have to let it go.

 

[cheiron]

Tashij ? A lot of words here? oops? ? Its all at the end! (chuckles)

You said <FONT COLOR="0000ff">"but what does it MEAN??... and? ?what does 30 mean in relation to really missing someone you love ???? 30 which describes all these combined attributes? what to make of them all, you know?"</FONT>

When I have had 30 in the past it simply means I have got very good clarity into the situation.

When there is a line moving in the first three lines I have had a deep insight and generally am quite excited about it (awed even sometimes).

These insights burn in me? like a bright fire? I sometimes feel like I am glowing! I cling to it?and believe me it sort of clings inside making me focus on it? it is like a bright fire? I love those moments?

There is a sense that I diverge from the world in these times? The world, beyond the situation, actually falls away as irrelevant? Not so much relinquished as not of any matter at all. Like lovemaking? it can be a beautiful, complete, bubble.


At these times there is just clear understanding about what is and who I am in relation to it?. But if line one is the case then it is yet to develop.

Lines 5 and 6 are very different in nature? here the clarity is coupled with empowerment in the outer world? there is power of strong correct and clear action here.

I have never had line 4 and am uncertain about it.

Line 3 is not necessarily about the elderly? it can also be about bewailing the loss as if one is elderly ? eg a telling off by the Yi.

If I had this hexagram in relation to a love? I would chuckle and say to myself? So I have (or will have) clarity about it? If my view was that it was a false or inappropriate love then I would trust that? if the view I had was that it was wonderful then I would trust that too.

Sorry Dobro ? I have had this Hx. when it was ?Bad news ? but you know that already?.

LiSe?s bright bird is beautifully intriguing for me? Li is the bright bird I seek moe than anything? I often seek it by not seeking it? like all things - pursuing directly is often chasing it away.

It is at the end of the upper Cannon? 29/30. They are a beautiful pair? plunge into the depths of despair or hurt and the way through leads to bright awareness? LiSe?s first post (now archived) had it for me.

But like all hexagrams this one can apply to the deeply spiritual or the absolute mundane? eg, ?Will I get my sight back??? Li? I think that is a simple yes

I agree with Dobro 23 Feb (nice one for me that Dobro thanks)

Also with LiSe?s beautiful words of 24 Feb, <FONT COLOR="ff0000">?Catching the bird of brightness means getting understanding?."</FONT> Wisdom with beautiful expression for me

But LiSe? You said? <FONT COLOR="ff0000">?Some more thinking made things a lot less complicated . .
Maybe 30 simply means "separate yourself from this", so it is very much this renunciation.?</FONT> ? I would not see that in this hexagram? or at least I have no experience of it being this way.

I cannot find renunciation in this Hx? But is in Its pair 29?

So Tashij? my reading is that you have (or will have) clarity about your love and will see clearly... also from our comments about the separation and loss there is the 'fundamental engine which leads to truth' in your time. Find it in yourself and trust it?.

Hmmm? think that is where LiSe started after the archive doh!!


Tashij you said, <FONT COLOR="0000ff">?in light of my turning to the Yi for counsel about the intense feelings of missing my ex, i believe 30 means that the sorrow i am feeling is feeding my energy. perhaps even is my energy source right now.

and seeing as i am in a period of desolation and mourning with my mother and family, there is no shame in that,but i will now be thinking about sources of energy.?</FONT>

This sounds so much like the pair of hexagrams? the deep watery darkness or difficulty of 29 leading to the bright insight and energy of 30?No?

Trust your judgement? let the fire of insight grow in you? You will then know and you will act? And I believe you are very wise ? Just thoughtful too.

Totally lacking any spiritual development

Kevin

PS Thanks to all who taght me much here

 

[tashij]

hello mr. totally lacking any spiritual development !!!

Blake wrote a poem called the Human Abstract. It's on my wall here. Do you know it???

"Soon spreads the dismal shade
of Mystery over his head
And the Caterpillar and the Fly
feed on the mystery
And it bears the fruit of Deceit
ruddy and sweet to eat."

When you have babies around like kevin to tend to the skin of the exposed heart there need be no fear.

thank you kevin for the reflections above.

I have learned so much about 30. Today i kinetically understood it, which is usually when i 'get' a hexagram. in that kinetic moment, i understood the yi was, without any attached morality, showing me that this burning object of sorrow and loss, was a very potent energy source.

it is, in a sense, similar to a jhana point of absorption, in the meditation states.

and i understood something about how i, personally, connect to devotion. and i understood 30 isnt about renunciation in this matter, it is merely about burning, devotion. and whatever you connect to, in devotion, determines the ability to stay put, in a sense. staying put is all it takes sometimes, and so devotional objects become central in various practices. in this case, my object is sorrow over the loss of *wisdom magic*, *wisdom love*. a tragic loss.

but i am not so sad, i understand the energy now.

thank you kevin.

 

[tashij]

goodnite all.

 

[gene]

Hexagram 30 line one is an interesting, yet complex line that I have only gotten some of the meaning out of. But in line one the light is just beginning, like the sun starting to come over the mountain but not quite there. In hexagram 22, I think of a sunset, as the light shines but not brightly on the base of the mountains. In 30.1 I see the sun beginning to shine but not yet in its glory. As such, we do not yet see clearly, so the footprints run crisscross. It is the same in our minds, when the light does not yet fully shine, that are path is not clear and we can easily get sidetracked. We do not necessarily know the correct path to follow. It is at this moment that we need to clear our minds as much as possible and prepare for the day. When this line changes we wind up with hexagram 56. In 56 there is in the lower trigram the idea of stopping, or meditating, to allow the true light to shine in. When we meditate, lower trigram, we receive the light of the upper trigram.

Hexagram 30 marks the end of the first cannon of the I Ching. It starts with yang and yin, and ends with water and fire. Just as yin and yang must mix in order to enliven all things, so a mixture of water and fire is necessary to keep us alive. This gets into alchemical aspects of the book of changes.

In 30 there is the element of clinging. But clinging can be positive or it can be negative. When we cling to someone, we necessarily on an inner level create a feeling of tension in the other. There is a feeling of a lack of autonomy, and independence. The person may not even be consciously aware of this. I am going to be going into this later in more detail in one of my other threads. But for now let us say that there is the positive side of clinging to that which supports us. Fire clings to its fuel. However, as in hexagram 56 when that fuel is spent, it moves on. We too, must cling to our support systems. But we must do so in an attitude of detachment. For failure to detach will sound an alarm in the subconscious of another person, and push that person away.

Gene

 

[cal val]

hi there...

was just told to have a look at this thread tonight. Otherwise, I'm trying to beat a deadline.

Tash...

Yes... *grin*

Dharma...

If you read the sentence of mine you quoted v e r y c a r e f u l l y, you'll see it's an observation. Pure and simple. A statement of fact that there was gossip... and no judgment attached to it. That is what the gossip was... in the trades... because of a controversial interview with Mel Gibson's father in Australia in which he stated the Holocaust was an exaggeration and because of the things Mel said to the press afterward. No judgment attached to it.

If the reader of that observation wants to make judgments... OR read judgments into it... that's their business.

In the meantime, I guess Gibson's dad is still at it.

film.guardian.co.uk/apnews/story/0,1276,-3767640,00.html

Again... Dharma... if you read that last sentence v e r y c a r e f u l l y you'll see... no judgment... merely an observation. He's still at it. Pure and simple.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Dharma...

Besides, if I weren't so busy, I'd run grab you a REAL example of a judgment. I'd say I'm not a hypocrite... but that would be hypocritical. You know what I mean? I'm not that different from you.

When I said Mel Gibson is a crazed zealot... now that's a judgment... *grin*

Love ya,

Val

 

[cheiron]

Tashij

You said <FONT COLOR="0000ff">"it is merely about burning, devotion. and whatever you connect to, in devotion, determines the ability to stay put..."</FONT>

Thanks for bringing devotion into this...That is my experience of this time too... So devotion is a clinging (smiles) I just never saw it here like that. (slapping head and happy)

I felt a peace reading your last post... You conveyed the beauty of that energy... I am off to work now and will try to hold that clear space - it feels good.

Sometimes I just never know when that little bright bird is going to turn up - but I do love it so.

Smiling

--Kevin

 

[cheiron]

Gene

I like your line one a lot.

I have been struggling with line 4.

Alfred Huang was helpful:

<CENTER><FONT COLOR="ff0000">"Its situation is likened to the rising of the sun. The Yao text says 'comes all of a sudden' because the lower mutual gua is Wind. When fire catches wind it blazes up instantly. The result is flaring up, dying down, discarded away.' This line shows that in the course of life brightnes may arise suddenly an then die out as quickly."</FONT></CENTER>

--Kevin

 

[heylise]

Tash,
thank you a lot for your beautiful posts, your wisdom and your struggle to find clarity in your feelings.
You made me understand a lot about hex.30 I had never thought of before. And Kevin too. You two made 30 a wonderful hexagram.
LiSe

 

[tashij]

Hi LiSe ..
; )
someday i won't make the mistakes i have in the past, right now i understand how very lucky to have the blessings i have. i never followed blindly, but definately the teacher takes you outside of your own intuition at times, otherwise thay cannot get you out of unconcious habit. in these times it is, as someone said to me, easier to jump into a ring of flames than listen to the teacher. but i know you know this. best wishes to you-always,
tash

 

[tashij]

(i edited the above post just now)

 

[dharma]

val,
i should first clarify that i haven't really a problem with being judgmental per se. it is a natural byproduct of having an ego and of living within the phenomenal world. judgments are a necessary means by which we make distinctions and contrasts between "what is me" and "what is not me". seen in this way, this faculty serves a very precise function.

therefore, it is "wrong" only if one *believes* that the act of doing so is wrong. so when one's belief (a wrongness mind-set) and one's actions (for instance) contradict and conflict with each other, AND the division is not recognized as such, this is unfortunate; metaphorically, the right-hand doesn't know what the left-hand is up to. we can bridge the gap by having what is evident to others, but not to ourselves, brought to our attention.

this i have done. accept it, justify it, deny it - what you do ultimately is of no consequence to me. i can only be concerned with what this all means to me; in recognizing what aspects of myself are equally accepting, justifying and/or denying.

for the record, had you posted your questions about judgmental behavior alone, i would have taken your questions as rhetorical and would not have responded.

had you posted your 'observations' about Mel Gibson alone, again, i would have taken your assessments as freedom of speech and would have not responded.

however, you did both and it seemed to me that you might benefit from having the discrepancy pointed out. while i'm at it, i'd like to also point out that one is subject to being blindsided if one is intent to believe that judgments per se are easily detected based on a "black and white" scale of evaluation, such as name-calling. it would be simple if we only needed to take note of our vocabulary choices to determine when we were making a judgment, but the ego is rarely that acquiescent. if it were, the issue of ego wouldn't ever be... an issue. we would all manage to master it a lot sooner than we actually do.

 

[cal val]

Dharma...

"however, you did both" I'm sorry. I can't understand what you're saying here. Reading the preceding paragraph, you lost me.

If you're still referring to my observation about the gossip about Mel Gibson and if you re-read the sentence you quoted and pay close attention to the punction, remembering the basic rules of the use of the comma with conjuctive words such as and, I think you might see how you came about your initial misunderstanding.

It dawned on me last night on my way to bed that you ignored the all-important absence of the comma there effectively establishing a series of modifying clauses about the gossip, and made it into two thoughts in your mind, the first about the gossip and the second a judgment on my part. I understand a lot of people get confused about when to use commas with and, but I don't. When I'm creating a series of modifiers, I don't use it. When I'm adding a judgment (or any other thought independent of the original subject and predicate), I do. I'm pretty consistent about that. It's important to me because it's all about clarity. That particular rule is very effective in avoiding saying something other than what I mean to say. I said exactly what I meant to say because I punctuated that sentence correctly. Actually, if I err in any direction, it's that I use commas too much... *grin*

I'm sure that's how you came about your misunderstanding. What I'm not sure of is why? You're very bright and articulate. It would seem to me that you would be on familiar ground with at least that particular rule of punctuation.

If that's not what you're doing... repeating yourself and re-asserting your original misunderstanding, then please do help me out here and explain what that comment was referring to. I would greatly appreciate it. I may not be able to see your response or answer it for a couple of days... I'm still working toward a deadline, but I will read it and answer it... if a response is even necessary.

For the record, the onus of my concern when I wrote that post about unsolicited advice was about the unsolicited advice and how, where and when it was proferred. Unsolicited advice, of course, is the worst. Advising mode is one of the least desirable communication styles in management because it's disempowering, empathetic and then questioning being much more acceptable. And I thought hers was particularly disempowering, given that it was unsolicited and the situation in which it was given. That's why I said something.

Although LiSe gave a wonderful interpretation of 30 in subsequent paragraphs, her first two paragraphs were clearly advice. "Never ever do blindly what anyone tells you to do." And it addressed an outpouring of emotion, a difficult thing for many of us to do and a very vulnerable time for most of us, rather than a question. The fact is, and there's no way around it, that one cannot offer advice, unsolicited or otherwise, without first making a judgment. That's why I mentioned judgment.

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

LiSe...

I do love you, and I'm not ignoring you. I really am very busy at the moment.

I've observed something very interesting here, and I hope you'll appreciate it in an accepting and lighthearted frame of mind as I am.

You said, "Never ever do blindly what anyone tells you to do." You probably already know this, but that kind of sentence is called a command. The you is implied, of course. I really did get a kick out of your advising someone not to accept your advice in essence. It kind of reminds me of my saying that I'm not open-minded enough to deal with closed-minded people for long. I also got a kick out of your follow-up statement to me, "No advice should ever become an order." Command is synonymous with order in this context. Do you see why I don't like giving advice. It can end up coming back and biting me in the butt... lol.

Besides... who of us is really qualified to advise others on how to think and feel? I could go over to the Graphics Test thread and give advice there on how to reduce image size in Photoshop... as soon as I finish the project I'm doing now in Photoshop... if they haven't figured it out yet *grin*... but on how to think and feel? No. Hell I'm not even qualified to advise myself! *grin* And you have a wonderful knowledge base of the Yi that you can share, but does that qualify you to act as a judge and advisor on how others should think and feel? You and at least two others here may disagree, but I don't believe it does. And I believe advice other than that given in the hexagrams and the lines just weakens an interpretation... if, indeed it is advice. I see in another thread that's up for debate at the moment... *grin*.

I didn't see that she was asking for advice but rather that she was asking for an interpretation. I could be wrong, but I've re-read her posts to be sure, and I can't see that she was. And, whether or not it was just a bizarre coincidence that you used a teacher as an example immediately after she posted something about her relationship with her teacher, as you seem to be implying, I didn't think it was an appropriate reference in light of the fact that she did refer to that relationship.

I do love, however, that your advice was to not accept advice in essence. I laughed. Do you have something similar to offer about giving advice? *grin* I like what John Gray says about that, and it explains why unsolicited advice is disempowering. "To offer a man unsolicited advice is to presume that he doesn't know what to do or that he can't do it on his own."

Love,

Val

 

[cal val]

Gene...

Love your post, that you addressed the "clinging" aspect of 30 and how you addressed it. The how, what, when, where and why of the clinging are indeed very important in determining whether it's a good thing or not.

Thank you!

Love,

Val

 

[dharma]

val,
the misunderstanding between us has nothing to do with grammer, sentence structure or even the use of commas. this is for me just another "black or white" scale of evaluation, though i can see that it is a meaningful standard of measure for you.

i'm talking more about an underlying intent and significance for doing and saying the things that are done and said. these are clearly being interpreted differently by both of us and so i really don't believe that further explanation and clarification on my part is going to bridge this gap.

our personal value systems, especially in regard to the worth that advice plays in our personal lives, is significant here. those who see it as a gift that gives them more options to choose from are coming from the same place that i am coming from, and will nod in agreement and understanding as they read my words. likewise, those whose value systems are different and/or dovetail your own, will probably read my words and, scratching their heads in confusion, will continue waiting for a punchline that's already been delivered.

let's just say we agree to disagree at this time. sometimes, the best time to bridge a gap is at another time when the conditions are more conducive to understanding.

 

[heylise]

Val,

I can understand your objections against "never ever do '. Of course that was way too strongly said. My only excuse is, that I said it in the first place about my (and our) own words.
It was just one reaction, maybe even just one sentence, which gave me the impression, that what we had said, was taken too literally. Before that, I did not have that idea, and maybe I was wrong about it at all.

About this teacher-and-pupil relation, I always had the impression that it was a very loving and rewarding contact. But when it suddenly looked as if she took us too serious, I included the teacher in it too. And that was indeed because the Yi too is a teacher, and should never be seen as a boss, and any teacher should not become a boss. Usually it is not the teacher who creates the boss, but the pupil.
You were right that talking about teachers at that moment included this particular teacher. I have been puzzling about it, because leaving teachers out was not satisfying, but leaving them in neither. It was a dilemma without a good solution.

I give interpretations and always avoid advice which is based on the Yi. Sometimes I give advice, based on my own experiences, but then I always try to make sure that the other is free to take it or leave it. Occasionally I say "never do . . ", but that has always to do with protecting your freedom, life or happiness from attacks. Many things which are sickening are taken for granted in a community, because everyone got more or less used to it. Usually it is presented as the good thing to do, not doing it or being like this, is "bad". Like the famous sentence "helping each other is what life is all about". Helping each other is wonderful of course, and for oneself it can be 'what life is about', but nobody has the right to demand others to do it. So when I hear it, I say "don't believe it" (or a bit softer: 'not for everyone', 'not always' or so). Without any further explanation, because that only triggers a discussion, and in the end nobody knows anything. I only say it to take the absoluteness out of the remark, to make a counterbalance, to show that it is not the only possibility. Then everyone can decide for him/herself what to think.
These social preconceptions are extremely strong, and soft words have no effect against them. Many people get very confused when someone disagrees with it, and I don't want to take it away from anyone. I just don't want anyone to be burdened with it who might find his real road in a different way.

My previous reaction was a bit lame. Hope this one makes more sense.

LiSe

 

[dharma]

out of curiosity, prompted by the discussion on this page regarding advice, i decided to ask the yi it's opinion on the matter. of course, i have my own personal take on what came out but i would like to hear what others have to say as well.

my question was simply "what do you think about the giving of advice to others?" and received hx22. i sat with this for a while and shortly felt prompted to ask the following two questions for further clarification. "what is the value in giving advice?" hx38 versus "what is the value in not giving advice?" hx30>22

i thought it interesting that the first hexagram turned out to be the very one that actually heads this thread, and the second one turned out to be the original hexagram that i started out with on the subject.

thoughts?

 

[cheiron]

Hi Dharma

Hx.38... Interesting ... Opposition and discord as well as 'releasing the energy to bring about change'... so true!

30.4 >22... Chuckles... advice is a transient way of teaching?... leading to a pretty adornment but nothing substancial?

Guess we knew that...

I never really experienced you as offering advice... More sort of uncovering ideas and relevant issues...

Now... wonder what the Yi Jing would say to the question of How to help people perceive and grow?

BTW 1 - My experience is that when one gets a beautiful circular pattern like this then there is a fundamental truth / connection.

BTW 2 - My friend who you helped privately (last year) with a Tarot reading has changed jobs and is thriving greatly.- Big Grin and Thanks!

--Kevin

 

[jte]

38 is an interesting hexagram because it is kind of a self-ending condition. As the hex plays out, each of the lines/states/individuals meets its correlate and the overall condition comes to an end (although some find themselves worse off than others, as in line 3 vs. line 4).

Since the question was general (not asking about the current thread) and the answer had no changing lines, perhaps the answer points to the role that advice can often play in ending opposition/disunion. Through mutual helpfulness, such as advice, people find common ground and reason to work together rather than opposing each other.

My 2 cents,

- Jeff

 

[heylise]

30 to 22 . .
The name of 22 is in the Mawangdui YiJing a plant, Artemisia, which is used a lot in China, among other things to cast out insects, and dried in cones for moxibustion. Its most important quality is restoring energy.
LiSe

 

[cheiron]

Hi LiSe

Is it possible to relate that to the Zhouyi 22?

Thanks

--Kevin

 

[dharma]

thank you both kevin and jeff for sharing your points of view.

as Jeff pointed out, my question wasn't exactly focused on the current thread at the time that i asked it. however, it is hard to overlook the fact that the answers i got were very much in keeping with this thread's overall focus (30) and the yi's first response regarding advice (22). also, even before i asked *my* question, gene actually compared the first lines of both these hexagrams, which i find at the very least curious, if not significant... "a fundamental truth/connection," as kevin worded it

"what do you think about the giving of advice to others?" hx22

this response describes the limitations that our human experience imposes on us as we attempt to display and express to others the inner worth, beauty and courage we encounter within ourselves. we are limited to superficial expressions that utterly fail to capture our inner values in exactly the same way. so advice *does* have merit and value, however, should a large gap exist between the value systems of the 'advisor' and the 'advisee', and unless the lesson of hx38 (see below) be faithfully applied, all that one is left holding is a superficial ornamental-sense-of-meaning that contains value to one person but none to other.


"what is the value in giving advice?" hx38

i think we agree that there is value in the giving and in the receiving of advice. hexagram 38 is about turning away from the ordinary way we see things and encountering what is outside of our normal range of experience. it's about facing up to how we are different and not being afraid of those differences. but ultimately, it's about recognizing how oppositions benefit us; how 180 degree oppositions connect with a common axis and work through creative tensions to bring something more into the world, as do heaven and earth, for instance.


"what is the value in NOT giving advice?" hx30>22

here i am asking how one benefits from NOT going to the trouble of sharing their perspective. also, how one benefits from NOT accepting another's advice. it would seem that on the one hand, as the advisor, i can save myself the trouble of wasting my energy on someone who either won't make the effort to bridge any existing gaps, or simply doesn't know how. and on the other hand, as the advisee, by not accepting advice, i am reacting emotionally and thus, i am left with my own personal perspective (hx30 - be it clear or not) to feed on. it's value (hx22) alone in helping me understand, is limited and insufficient, for the fuel is limited and will, in due course, exhaust itself as reflected by the 4th changing line.


Kevin,

btw1- you said, "I never really experienced you as offering advice... More sort of uncovering ideas and relevant issues..."

it's all in the choice of words, in the end though the only difference between "giving advice" and "uncovering issues" is how it is interpreted by those that one is sharing it with. like jeff said, trust in the relationship can make a big difference in how it's received.


btw2- you also said, "wonder what the Yi Jing would say to the question of How to help people perceive and grow?"

so i cast with this question in mind and received hx9>48 = my interpretation: nurturing, supporting and helping in small ways and by making sure that the well-waters that you are offering are clear and pure. above all, do not rush ahead into territory of understanding that the other person has yet to discover, be content with growth as it is achieved and no further.


btw3-sincerely glad to hear that your friend C. is doing so well. thank you for bringing me up to date.

 

[tashij]

what was in question in val's original post was not about advice, but UNSOLICITED advice, which, frankly, was given.

 

[tashij]

and if you want to know how that feels, or what it means, why dont you ask me, not the yi, since im the one it was given to.

 

[cheiron]

Tashiij

I missed that in the thread.

Understood.

Sorry

--Kevin