Hexagram 32.1.2.6 changing to 30 - please help with interpretation...

[jesed]

Hi Micheline

Interesting answer... and more interesting understanding

 

[martin]

This may be subjective but I don't see hex 32, taken as an advice, as simply "stay" or "continue".
The image is that of a tree that grows new branches. This suggests that something continues by renewing itself.
Renewal is essential, there have to be changes, the old ways and habits will not do.

I think that line 1 and 6 can be interpreted in this way sometimes. They not only talk about continuing too long or at any price, but also about efforts to continue without changing things.

 

[jesed]

Hi martin

Completely agree with you

I like the way Wilhelm say the same opinion:

"Duration is rather the self-contained and therefore self-renewing movement of an organized, firmly integrated whole"

 

[bruce]

Hi Micheline,

You make excellent points, and for the most part I agree with what you've said. It does come down to making her own decision based on her own wishes for her own life. Steady character and a clear mind works to her best advantage, but it's always her choice.

 

[martin]

Re the Yi and "telling you what to do", I like to think of the Yi (and this is no doubt subjective again

) as a nondirective counselor a la Rogers.
Such counselors rarely say "do this" or "don't do that". Instead they give some hints and suggestions or just mirror your words and behavior back to you and let you figure it out for yourself.

"yes yes, but WHAT should I DO??"
"what do you feel when you say DO?"
"iiiiiiiiiii!"
"could you rephrase that?"
........

 

[micheline]

agree with martin also....But jesed, you have already said that you felt it the response was saying to STAY!


another way of stating the intepretation:

should I leave the boyfriend?

Yi: I will not tell you yes or no...but I will point out what is going on here. You have actually chosen to stay, but you are not at peace with your own choice. You are causing yourself unhappiness by this lack of peace with your decision. Consider that you are here with this man because there is a synergy of some kind... You are both getting something out of staying together ( even though it may not be what you want)

 

[jesed]

Hi micheline

yes, that's the way i readed the answer... and I still do

a) That doesn't contradict my agreement with martin, because I didn't say "stay without change anything"...and I still don't say "saty without change nothing". (I notice that in your cases, seems the only chances are "stay in the same that you are" or "leave the relationship", really this last one since is your own opinion. I think the scope includes more situations).

b)Evem more. I accept the posibility that another's interpretation can be more useful for Magdalena. No problem with that

best wishes

best wishes

 

[void]

Phew it bugs me when people like to plant their favourite psychological theory on top of the Yi. Yi does not have a 'Rogerian' viewpoint Martin - you may have and may wish to interpret the Yi so, I don't.

I find myself agreeing with Jeseds view that the Yi does not issue moral commands as such but rather show the natural consequence of a certain course of action. And yes I actually think often it does indicate quite a stark consequence.

People always seem to want to 'psychologise' Yi according to their favourite, usually western, psychological theorist. To some extent this is inevitable, beings as we are, mostly modern westerners. But oh boy the day I come across a 'Rogerian I Ching'

!!!

I always thought that mirroring 'technique' if it is a 'technique' is pretty ineffectual and I don't think its what the Yi does at all.

 

[lightofdarkness]

The properties and methods of the IC are such that they reflect the properties and methods of our brains and so the IC can reflect 'all there is' - and that includes every particular psychology existing and to come.

If you stick to a traditionalist perspective on the IC, and so FORCE the distinction of west/east then you are doing yourself and the IC a huge diservice.

Give the focus on 'all there is' so this includes what was/is/will_be as well as what could have been/is not/could_be.

IOW we deal with facts, values, the real and the imagined. The TECHNIQUE used is that of the IC REFLECTING 'us' and we can work with it proactively or reactively.

So, "void", IMHO you need to get out more, try and move into the 21st century. Yes, from a traditionalist position, thast is not easy but to understand the full spectrum of the IC, and so benefit from that understanding, one needs to change every now and then - after all isnt change inevitable? ;-)

 

[peace]

Ok - Magdalena, another point of view. This is what I get from the lines that may "speak" to your situation.

I read 32.1 as mutual, enduring love takes time and cannot be rushed. It needs to fully expand.
(Frank - where do you get it's about instinct??)

32.2 I read as - don't attempt something which is beyond what you can deal with now - limit what you can do and be careful and conscientious.

30.6 Take it easy - if you push for closure now, you may regret it.

So - in your situation, perhaps you and your boyfriend were focusing, up until now, on the romance - and now the hard day to day of living together, with all it's difficulties and boring ordinary stuff has you thinking, "Is this all there is? What do I need this for? He has all this baggage and this kid and this house and these ISSUES. I'm a free agent. Why hitch myself to all this?"

It seems that your anxiety and maybe anger at him (for not meeting your expectations????) is getting the better of you.

Now may be the time for you to take your time, carefully and conscientiously, to decide if you really love this guy - who he is, right in front of you, with all the baggage - current and past.
Can you love him as he is - not who you thought he was, could be, may be, etc.?

And, I personally think you owe it to yourself to stay with your anxiety and calm yourself enough to really look at this. Give yourself 3 months and don't do anything.

Anyway, my two cents into the mix.
In the past I left someone and then regretted it -and it was too late. His pride got in the way of coming back. He now regrets it too - but he's remarried - unhappily, so I believe I hurt us both.

All the best,
Rosalie

 

[jte]

"I always thought that mirroring 'technique' if it is a 'technique' is pretty ineffectual and I don't think its what the Yi does at all."

This is a topic which could, potentially, hijack this thread. However, it's interesting, so I'll respond.

In my case, I distinctly *sometimes* find the Yi making recommendations for action, but at other times, find it "reflecting" my view/situation/feelings, etc. This depends on the interaction of the Hex/Line with the specific question I'm asking and the circumstances.

How much of this steps from the user's interpretation and how much is "what the Yi is communicating" is an open question.

In my case, I've become of the "Yi has a will/intelligence of it's own" school. So I see it as the conscious intent of what it's trying to communicate. For example, I think that possibly in cases where *the Yi* has a specific opinion it is directive. In other cases, where it doesn't have a specific intent (or perhaps "trusts me" to choose well for myself) it seems to provide more reflection than direction.

My 2 cents,

- Jeff

 

[void]

Yeah Jeff I agree with what you said. Like you I've become more and more of the "Yi has a will/intelligence of its own school" and I would agree there are times when the Yi certainly feels directive and times where it seems more reflective.

I think my remarks (above) were a little clumsy, not well thought out - you've actually expressed my view perfectly.

 

[martin]

"Phew it bugs me when people like to plant their favourite psychological theory on top of the Yi."

It often bugs me too, Void!

. And a few weeks ago I wrote in another thread that I feel that there is way too much psychologizing going on in todays spirituality.

But I think that what Rogers and others with a similar approach do is what people (priests, healers, teachers, personal friends, ..) have done in all ages and cultures.
Instead of giving direct advice or telling you what to do they help you to explore and understand your situation or condition. And then you can decide for yourself.
This way of communicating has not much to do with our (western) psychological theories and therapeutic practices per se. Socrates also did it like that, I suppose.

And the Yi .. at least in my experience. But this is personal. We all have a somewhat different relationship with the Yi.
We also have different views about what is behind it and what or who speaks through it.
For me it is definitely a "who" nowadays and he/she has a will/intelligence of his/her own.
Yes, Jeff, I guess I belong to that same school.

 

[bruce]

I dunno who or what it is or where it comes from, but I can imagine many guesses. I think it is like Campbell's Hero with a Thousand Faces. Taking any one of them at "face value" once-and-for-all, loses something essential, because it eliminates the other 999 faces. So to me, it is the face of the moment.

 

[magdalena]

Wow, my poor head... I'm trying to digest all the different responses. If ever there was a reading where the Yi would scream out a definite answer, mine is not one of them. Better though as I am not ready to make any definitive decisions.

Your comments made me think way beyond the question though. Whenever people get to make crucial decisions in their lives and are searching for answers, the answers are often presented to them openly but they get bogged down by details and so entangled that they are not able to see it. I obviouly had this question in my head for a while and recently heard from a guy I had a serious relationship with years ago. I left him when I thought I couldn't cope any longer and he tried to get back together for years. Eventually he gave up, got engaged to someone else and is getting married. I now look back and think WHY DID I LEAVE??? Frank, Rosalie and others made me realise that it is not that hard to leave, it is so much harder to see it through and really get to the bottom of it. A true love does require a lot of patience and effort and I need to strip this relationship of any substitutions for emotional closeness before I can make my final decision.

 

[peace]

Good for you - and if you decide to leave after you do that....hopefully you won't look back!

Rosalie

 

[frank]

Hi Magdalena,

I hope everything is alright with you and that you dit NOT listen to much to people who are more busy with there own ego's from time to time when you actually starded a post where you wanted to be helped for. I hope at least that you take out the warp from the weft and that you find peace of mind in something that could 'kill you' insite your head when emotions take over the control, instead of you and your head... Believe me, I realy know what that can do to you. Hang in there, try to look beyond some things I thought would be handy to look for, but I'm not a saint and I could ofcourse be wrong... But you already responded in a way that I think I did not :-D. Again, hold on, take some deep breaths, forget about egoism and make your own desicions :-D.

Damn, now I'm sweed... :-D

Huggie,
Frank

 

[bruce]

Frank,

I believe everyone who posted on this thread was trying to be helpful to Magdalena. It?s not unusual, as you know, for theoretical discussions to evolve on threads initially opened for personal help. It?s what makes this site more than just a Dear Abby love-help column.

Also, standing up for what you believe, especially when it has been hard earned, shouldn?t be projected as a negative thing. It is strong personalities with strong views that make this site interesting. If it creates a little opposition once in awhile, that too can be educational for those open enough to learn from it. We are real people here, not answering machines.

 

[micheline]

Echoing Bruce, Frank....I thought the reading was discussed very throroughly, and nobody was faulting Magdelena or trying to impose ego on her.

I think M answered her own reading above. she wants to stay and work it through. I think in her heart she knew this even as she asked the question.

If any theorist could be likened to the voice of the YI, it would be rogers, that's for sure. His approach was based in relationship, give and take, and the creating of a space where one's personal truth could emerge.

If the Yi does "direct" I dont see it as so different from "reflecting".....I mean the reason we question the yi at all is to understand what we may not be seeing or acknowledging in ourselves and in our situation. Sometimes this is a clear resounding DIRECTion in accordance with the time.... but always it is a refection of what is currently in flux/meaningful to the moment.

The quote which pops up on clarity when you open the site says it best: "When you can really see into the present moment, all its possibilities open out before you- and you are free to create your future."

 

[peace]

To build on Micheline...this is from Native American culture:

Do you love yourself enough to hear the other voices speaking?

 

[jte]

"Sometimes this is a clear resounding DIRECTion in accordance with the time.... but always it is a refection of what is currently in flux/meaningful to the moment. "

Yes, I agree that makes sense/is a good way to describe directives when they do come...


"To build on Micheline...this is from Native American culture: Do you love yourself enough to hear the other voices speaking?"

Interesting saying, but I don't find it easy to understand. Can you explain what it means within the context of it's original culture? Maybe that will help me understand what it expresses... Thank you!

- Jeff

 

[frank]

Hi all,

I by no means had the intention to be harsh or something for that manner, but I was a bit anoyed as it went a bit off track. That?s all. Forfive me if your voice was not heared enough, and yes... I do love myself enough to hear the other voices speak... Do you? And to Magdalena, I wish you all the best in this. I hope we here could be of any help.

Hug,
Frank

 

[bruce]

Hi Jeff,

What I get from the saying is similar to Heidegger?s example of two strangers on a bridge. One decides to end his life by jumping off, and the other spontaneously grabs onto to him, giving no thought to endangering his own life by saving the man. The realization is that life is life and there?s no separation between the two men, or anyone/anything else.

 

[void]

Personally I would disagree with the idea that 'if Yi were a theorist it would be Rogers for sure' (near enough quote from Micheline above)


At times I feel the Yi is pretty strongly directional. It says in effect sometimes 'if you do this as proposed its not going to be good for you'. Thats fine by me, sometimes a strong answer is a great help. Like someone said above other times you kinda feel Yi saying 'its up to you'.

Overall comparing Yi to any theory of therapy is going to be a very strange thing to do - though I do see what Martin and Micheline are getting at.

For me Yi is Yi. Not like Rogers or anyone else.And if your're about to step off a cliff (figuratively) I don't think a 'hmm maybe its up to you' response is especially helpful.

In therapy there are serious power issues so normally is not seen as desirable to be too directional especially in so called 'humanistic/rogerian' type therapy, or any other I believe - since then the therapist is holding too much power over a maybe vulnerable client.

However fortunately the Yi is not a therapist and I am not its client. As you may guess I have grave doubts about therapy and the 'therapeutic' relationship thus I pull away strongly when I see psycho- theory stuck onto/ over Yi or worse attributed to Yi.

Its just a view I wished to express, I'd loathe to see the voice of the Yi muffled up into all that 'I'm OK Your OK..and everythings fine if we just talk about it..type of stuff...sure that stuff has its value, but I feel Yi is Yi apart from that.

Still not especially well expressed (sigh) but I guess you get my drift, and I realise its a bit of a rant so I'll button up now.

Frank threads do often wander off into discussion of other things, I'm not aware that its wrong to do so, especially if the querents original question has already been attended to. I'm not sure why you're annoyed, theres no rules I know of that a thread shall take a particular route - or have you been appointed 'route master'

 

[martin]

I think I understand what you are saying, Void. And I have doubts about the value of therapy myself.
I see all too often that therapists are directly or indirectly forcing clients to accept their limited view of how things ought to be and project their own issues on them. This also happens in socalled nondirective therapies but then in more hidden ways.

"However fortunately the Yi is not a therapist and I am not its client."

Same for me. I see the Yi more as a friend. Albeit a wise friend.
If I want to jump off a bridge such a friend might say "But wait a moment, do you realize that you will get wet?"
Is that directive? Think so!

 

[bruce]

I think a lot has to do with personalities: thinkers, feelers, etc. Certainly the Yi deals on psychological levels, albeit more confrontational than our modern day shrinks might be, but not so different from the Zen master?s whack across our back with his staff. Ouch! It can change our way of looking at something in ourselves, and that changes our immediate psychological state, which opens us to see things outside ourselves differently.

The big difference as I see it is, understanding in our head and understanding down into our heart or gut. It?s said that the longest mile is the distance from our head to our heart. Interpreting Yi strictly on a rational level is ?about? something or other. Interpreting from the heart/gut ?is? what it speaks. There?s no way I know of to speed this process, other than to live the theoretical long enough so that it makes its way into our body/soul experience, our very fiber. There are rare individuals who possess this early in life, but they indeed are rare.

It?s a shame, imo, that our culture lacks appreciation for elders who have lived it and who can impart it, saving the younger noble years of fumbling through texts and reasons to feed their already overstuffed heads.

Oh, and by all means let?s remain polite and tidy. God forbid some arrogant young dragon takes a whack on his sturdy back, and offends his finer sensibilities. We are indeed a generation of impudent wimps because of it. And, yes, I include myself in that group.

 

[bruce]

And, no, nobody peed in my cheerios this morning.

 

[luz]

Lol!!
What an impudent wimp you are!

 

[frank]

Wow, I did not know MY threads are OFTEN WANDER OFF... Realy, I do??? Geee, Then I shutt up immidiatly. Sofar I thought I saw this forum as a Yi forum, and I was just trying to express what I saw in Yi answers, but maybe I bring on to long letters then, which could give people ideas that MY posts USUALY wander off... Thanks for that insite. I shall be sweet, and need a good spanky, and further on I will NEVER say again that I'm anoyed or have doubts or ask questions, etc... I might hurt someone... Geee...

Still: Hug.
Frank

 

[luz]

Frank,

I don't think anybody said your threads wander off. They said that most threads do and that this is only natural because they are conversations, not Q&A sessions. And I agree with them in that this is an asset to this site: the diversity of opinions and the ease with which these opinions are often expressed.

So, relax and enjoy the ride!