how do you view it?

[dobro p]

I'd like your opinion(s) about something. I'm going to use Hex 63 as an example, but the principle I'm wondering about applies throughout the Yi.

In Hex 63, when it speaks of 'disorder', do you see the disorder as:

* an absolutely inevitable dimension of the situation?

* a very real possibility, but avoidable? (In other words, inevitable if you do nothing to be aware of it and prevent it, but not inevitable if you're careful.)

 

[dobro p]

By the way, if you opt for the first choice, that isn't really so bad. I mean, if the disorder is an absolutely inevitable aspect of the situation, then knowing about it allows you to cut your losses, not waste your energy trying to keep things perfectly on track, and calm your heart.

 

[ewald]

I think the disorder that the Yi talks about in 63.0, is being without direction or goal when you're "already across" (ready). When a new direction or goal presents itself, it's over.

I don't believe that 63.0 applies to situations where you still have some goal left, after you're ready, so the disorder is inevitable. However, it is not necessarily problematic, there is no misfortune.

In fact, I've been looking for some alternative word to "disorder," as I think it not quite captures what's the case, but I haven't found one yet.

 

[Trojina]

I think the disorder that the Yi talks about in 63.0, is being without direction or goal when you're "already across" (ready). When a new direction or goal presents itself, it's over.

.

Yes that understanding works for me. I never much took into account the term 'disorder' in 63. In my life, over the years seeing how 63 seemed to play out as far as I could see, 'disorder' didn't seem a part of it that meant much to me. So I agree there could be a better word than 'disorder'.

 

[rosada]

Maybe the quote I posted over on the Hitchhiker's Guide to The Galexy thread applies to 63.

 

[jesed]

But 63 was only an example, isn't Dobro?

The question, as i understand is: it is an ommen fixed for good?, or it depends on the actions of the consultant to avoid it (or achieve it)?

In traditional teachings, the answer is the second option.

Best wishes

 

[dobro p]

Yes, Jesed, you understood and answered my question. But we've only just started to explore this.

You said: "it depends on the actions of the consultant to avoid it (or achieve it)?" and you said that traditional teachings take this interpretation. Okay, then when I drew Hex 63 the other day, would you say that my life:

* was actually in a Hex 63 situation?

* was only potentially in a Hex 63 situation?

 

[lagunader]

Hi everyone
The way I see 63 is basically that things cannot be ideal and in perfect balance for a significant period of time , eventually the equilibrium is altered...disorder. I see it as unavoidable, but can be minimized with" awareness of danger".
best wishes

Lagunader

 

[luz]

Dobro,

I think it depends on the question. If your question was about the present then you are in hex 63 situation, it can't be avoided unless you time travel to the past, but if the question was a "what if" question then it is theoritically avoidable...

 

[jesed]

Hi Dobro

That depends

Some ideas:
A)
1.- An hexagram is model for reality, not the reality itself. Therefore, one need to contrast the model with the real facts.
2.- One conclusion from 1: if the facts are LIKE the model, you can expect the evolution will be like the model suggest.
3.- Second conclusion from 1: if the facts are in the oposite of the model, you can expect the evolution won't be like the model suggest.
4.- Important conclusion from 1: you don't receive from Yi an order, or a fixed prnostication. Always, you need to constrast the facts, and DECIDE by yourself the Path.

B) The relation between principal hexagram, tendential hexagram and changing lines, traditionally is:
1.- Principal hexagram is the Time ruling the situation (and depending the kind of question, the situation could be subjective, objective, general, particualr, description, advice...etc) *(FOOTNOTE)
2.- Every Time is available for some actions, and dangerous for others actions. If you know the Time of the situation, you can derivate what is available to do, and what would be dangerous to do. Then you contrast you real factical actions with that availability or dangerous.
3.- Tendential hexagram is the tendential of the evolution. It is not the future (as a fixed objective fact), but a tendential. Then you see if you wish or not to walk into that Path. So, you decide to achieve or to avoid the tendential evolution.
4.- The changing lines are particular advices about what YOU can do to achieve or avoid the tendential. Is the subjective posibility of action. That's why, when the hexagram is unchanging, we say that is an absolute objective situation, and doesn't depends on subjective actions or choices of the consultant.. This explain how worse changing lines leads to wonderful tendential hexagrams (IF you follow the advice, and stop acting like the worse line, you can reach a good end) and beutiful lines leads to trouble tendentials (if you act like that beutiful line, you can avoid a bad evolution)
5.- In any principal hexagram, are hidden another hexagrams wich acts like "ambushed" hexagrams (See Wilhelm's II Book). Those are alternative evolutions, that can become the real end if your actions and decisions reinforce them. Example: you have a changing line that leads to 11 (peace), but ambushed hexagram is 12 (stagnation). If you don't act like the line, not only don't end in 11, but most probably in 12.
5.Therefore, a close examination of the answer gives you one principal tendential of evolution (tendential hexagram) and 1 to 3 alternative tendentials of evolution. You choose which one of those you want to achieve, and act according with that.


* be aware of something: even if you get one hexagram as the Time ruling your situation, that doesn't imply that you are in line with that time. So, you can get 63 as ruling your life, but your life not be in "63". Thats why you need to constrast the real fact to the hexagram model. To discover if the facts (the manifested) is or not in accordance with the macrocosmical influence (the Tao)

From Wang Bi and others commenters, the most your life (real facts) are in accordance with the Tao (the Time of the hexagram), the most "good fortune" will be in you life.

Best wishes

 

[dobro p]

lagunader, lightangel, jesed - thanks for your replies.

Some background: the question was: "What do I need to know at this time?" and I drew 63 with no active lines.

I interpreted that to mean that the contour of my life was best described by 63 at that point. That matched the situation in my life, in fact - things have been unsettled for a while, but recently things sort of fell into place for me. (The day before I drew 63, I'd drawn 59 - a nice progression from one to the other, I think.) But the last line of 63, which I render as 'at first fortunate, completion disorder' can either mean:

* things are gonna go off the rails, count on it

* things can easily go off the rails, but if you keep your wits about you, you can avoid it

Another example of something similar would be the last line of the main text for Hex 19. Again, is it a warning, or is the misfortune built into the situation? And Hex 8 is another example. In other words, how much of what the main text describes is an intrinisc part of the situation you're in, and how much of what is described is merely a possibility?

 

[bradford]

Luan4 is the word translated as disorder or confusion.
The Yi's authors were better than the Greeks at understanding
Entropy or the Second Law of Thermodynamics.
Perfection was no more to the Yi's authors than the step immediately
preceding the onset of decay. Hey, it's autumn.

 

[willowfox]

"What do I need to know at this time?" and I drew 63 with no active lines.

1. hex 63 indicates the time period between 7th - 13th of October, 2006, approx.

2. are you having, or will in the next 3 months, financial problems? Taxes, debts etc.

 

[frank_r]

When you look to 63 you see three times young yin, three times not changing yin. Three times on the place of autumn. So the yin stays yin for a while, and 63 is the expression of earth staying earth for a while.

Earth is acceptance, so this disorder will only go if you can stay in the middle for it a while.
Like being part of the inner eye of a storm.

 

[lagunader]

Hi Dobro
"things can easily go off the rails, but if you keep your wits about you, you can avoid it"
That's exactly how I see it.
My approach to the Yi has always been to keep it simple and had very little misinterpretation this way.
Regards

Lagunader

 

[dobro p]

lagunader - Recently I took a look at the commentary in Wilhelm/Baynes. I don't know how much of that is Wilhelm and how much of it is Wilhelm's teacher, but it's *hugely* on the side of those that see our choices and responses to the situation as a big determinant of what happens in a situation. The text descriptions outline strong possibilities, in other words, but it's up to you to put in the effort that determines the actual significance of events and even their outcome.

Brad - yes. But what do you think about my question lol?

willowfox - the example I gave was only an example, and I'm much more concerned with the general principle I asked about.

frank - "Earth is acceptance, so this disorder will only go if you can stay in the middle for it a while." You know, I'm not wondering about how the disorder will disappear as much as I'm wondering about whether the disorder is an inevitable part of the situation.

 

[lagunader]

Dobro
I totally agree, as a General Principle, of course "up to you to put in the effort that determines the actual significance of events and even their outcome". but in 63,disorder is inevitable but can be minimized with our own effort (awarness of danger).

 

[jesed]

Hi Dobro

maybe a metaphora could help.

I like to see the answers like a force-vector analysis.

You have a ball, in starting point A, localized in the cartesian map at (X1, Y1)

You have 3 forces hitting the ball:
F1 with strongness 3, from south to North
F2 with strongness 3, from west to east
F3 with strongness 4, from southwest to northeast.

Whit those data, you can "predict" that the ball will stop at the ending point localized on the cartesian map at point (X4,Y5).

But, if after the start of the movement, you got another force hiting the ball, localized in point (X2,Y2), with strongness 8, direction North to South.... then the ball won't end at (X4,Y5) anymore, but at alternative ending point (X2,Y-4)

Starting point: primary hexagram
Ending point: tendential hexagram
Forces hitting at starting point: Heaven, Earth and Man (described in the changing lines)
Later force: later subjective action, derivate from the comprehension of the answer.
Alternative ending point: "ambushed" hexagrams.

Example: the main lesson of 63 is: a time of balance won't last for ever, it had an inner tendency to disbalance again.

In this case, the ambushed hexagram are the same: 64.

So, the alternative path to avoid disorder is to enterprise a new begining.

Therefore, once you had complete some enterprise, you have 2 options:
a) Remain attached to that balance-state achieved (as it would last forever)
b) To be alert to the signs to start a new era.

The first one is an ilusion, and that's why tends to disorder; the second one is a challenge to new growht, and that's why it needs the caution of the fox crossing a big river.

Best wishes

 

[hilary]

Great question!

Yes, what they said - you are in a 63 situation, and that includes the possibility of it all falling apart if you lose your sense of purpose and forward momentum and rest on your laurels. (Jesed's option 'a'.)

I think there is an implicit 'if... then...' in many hexagram statements. Often we read them so automatically as 'if's that we practically forget they're only implicit. Example: when did you last see 48 and assume you were facing the disaster of inadequate means to reach the water? Or see 25 and assume you had failed to correct yourself and were striding purposefully into the nearest pit?

 

[dobro p]

"Example: when did you last see 48 and assume you were facing the disaster of inadequate means to reach the water? Or see 25 and assume you had failed to correct yourself and were striding purposefully into the nearest pit?"

Yes, those are two more examples of what I'm wondering about. In the case of 48, I assume there's a very real possibility of my not going deep enough *every* time I draw 48. Ditto 25 - I always assume I've got to be...what's the word?... ah! Impeccable. But those examples are easier, because they obviously refer to what I do in the situation. My initial question(s) however, was about the Yi lines that refer, not to me or my role in the situation, but to the contour of the situation itself.

 

[ewald]

I don't think there's an implicit "if ... then ..." here,
as there's "at first ..., eventually ..."

 

[hilary]

I find it means (or at least often means) you do well with a beginner's mindset, and come to grief if you imagine you've finished. The Tuanzhuan actually backs this up - 'coming to an end, stopping, and hence disorder.'

 

[bradford]

Brad - yes. But what do you think about my question lol?

If only you'da asked it about Anything but Entropy!

You may know that I don't usually look at the Yi's pronouncements as predictions of the future, especially unchangeable ones. To me the answers are more like "Given that question, here's a metaphor-lesson-tool-attitude that ought to come in handy as you move down that path". Partly because, to me at least, a choice is always implied, even where one of the options is entirely between the lines. So instead of predicting failure, for instance, an image might say "This is the sort of thing that would lead to failure - do the opposite of that to succeed". But to make the right choice you have to understand the Hexagram and the Line texts. It's not just pure possibility. You work with the grain of the Time, depicted by the Hexagram. And for 63 the time has comes to get used to the idea that entropy is inevitable to any individual thing (the number one lesson of Buddhism), especially when it is no longer receiving the energy input necessary to more it towards perfection.

 

[dobro p]

"...especially when it is no longer receiving the energy input necessary to more it towards perfection."


Which implies an especial possibility of the situation actually receiving the energy input necessary to move it toward perfection, if only the person(s) in charge of that energy:

a know it

b have the power to do it

c and do it


I find the responses to my question pretty encouraging in a lot of ways.

 

[frank_r]

You know, I'm not wondering about how the disorder will disappear as much as I'm wondering about whether the disorder is an inevitable part of the situation.

Oh, now I'm getting the point, yes I think the disorder is inevitable part of the situation.
When I get a hexagram I think this will happen, otherwise why should I work with the Yi if I don't believe it in the first place.

But my perception what a disorder means and in what way it comes I don't know yet.
By using the Yi, for me the Yi has nothing to do with fortune telling, I can look at things in another perspective.
It gives me insights from all kind of angles. So the disorder( or whatever my interpretaion of 63 is) will often have another "face" then I expected. By using it this way I becoming more sensitive, more curious and more free than I was before. Because now I can investigate my own way of habit thinking as a sort outsider/spectator.

 

[bradford]

If you guys want to try out different translations for "Disorder", this is the Glossary entry for the Chenese word used. It syntehesizes about 15 different dictionaries.

luan4 4220 180c 5+12 45.1 (to be) confused (by, with), disordered, perplexed, distracted, disorderly, chaotic, erratic, tangled, random, indiscriminate, arbitrary, out of place, in disarray, wild, irregular, disturbed, promiscuous; (a, the) confusion, chaos, upheaval, commotion, distraction, disorder, perplexity, turmoil, disarray, entanglement, disturbance, mess; trouble, discord, anarchy, rebellion; (to) confuse, entangle, perplex, distract, upset, rebel, make trouble, overturn; (to) put in order, restore order, govern, sort out (s, ed, ing); to cross a river

 

[RindaR]

Hi Dobro

maybe a metaphora could help.
<snip>

So, the alternative path to avoid disorder is to enterprise a new begining.

Therefore, once you had complete some enterprise, you have 2 options:
a) Remain attached to that balance-state achieved (as it would last forever)
b) To be alert to the signs to start a new era.

The first one is an ilusion, and that's why tends to disorder; the second one is a challenge to new growht, and that's why it needs the caution of the fox crossing a big river.

Best wishes

I think of 63 like compost. Garbage treated with sunlight and air, then added to a seed, can bring more luxuriant growth...

 

[lightofreason]

If we extend the coverage a bit re 63....

63 After Completion
Correct Sequencing
In a context of guidance we utilise control.

"CHI CHI -

CHI : completed, done; has occured; past tense of not-yet, WEI..

CHI : cross a river at a ford or shallow place; overcome an obstacle, embark on a course of action; help, relieve, cease. The ideogram: water and level, running smooth over a flat bottom."ERANOS p656



Image :
"[With guidance comes overcoming(control) : Sequencing]. One remembers distress and prepares for it in the future."

In the binary sequence hexagram 63 pairs with hexagram 37.
This pairing reflects an overall focus on completion in the form of 'correct structure'. In hexagram 37 the differentiating bias is to a particular in the form of tension release where "a first daughter is a first daughter" and a "third son is a third son", in other words there is no competition and the context overall acts as a cause of tension release, that context being ANY collective but the metaphor of a family is used to get the point across.. Hexagram 63 focuses on correctness leading to the completion of something, of getting the sequence of events 'right' and so we also see a focus on 'correct structure'.

In the binary sequence hexagram 63 opposes hexagram 64.
This pairing reflects the differences in (a) remaining open (64) vs (b) focusing on closure and 'correct' ordering (63).
At the LOCAL level we are dealing with an octet of hexagrams with the FIRE trigram as base. In this sequence hexagram 30, the focus upon guidence and direction-setting, 'opposes' hexagram 63, a focus on closure, completion, on 'correct' sequencing. The issue here is on the degree, where 30 has a 'wide' boundary of yin/yang differentiations, it is clearly 'fire', whereas 63 is tighter, more mixed in yin/yang differentiations where we have the opposite of fire, water, present in the top trigram position and so limiting the exaggeration.

In the traditional sequence hexagram 63 pairs with hexagram 64.
MIXING:

63 : mixing - through closure, completion, correct sequence; 63 completion, closure, comes from a context described by hexagram 53 - maturing (63s 27-ness)

64 : mixing - through open, non-closure, incorrect sequence; 64 non-completion, remain open comes from a context described by hexagram 54 - immaturing (64s 27-ness)

63's spectrum described by analogy to hexagrams:

00 :: (02) : What is this hexagrams's potential form? :: 63
01 :: (24) : How does this hexagram 'start', express 'beginning'? :: 39
02 :: (07) : How does this hexagram express uniformity, establishment of? :: 5
03 :: (19) : How does this hexagram express approaching the 'high'; defer to the 'low'? :: 48
04 :: (15) : How does this hexagram level things out, keep words close to facts? :: 3
05 :: (36) : How does this hexagram protect its 'light' when not its time? :: 8
06 :: (46) : How does this hexagram become more entangled with something/someone? :: 60
07 :: (11) : How does this hexagram balance/harmonise, mediate? :: 29
08 :: (16) : How does this hexagram express foresight/planning? :: 49
09 :: (51) : How does this hexagram express surprise, enlightenment, shock? :: 31
10 :: (40) : How does this hexagram express tension release through relaxing structure? :: 43
11 :: (54) : How does this hexagram expend early energy, imaturity? :: 28
12 :: (62) : How does this hexagram express overacting to establish unconditional loyalty? :: 17
13 :: (55) : How does this hexagram deal with abundance/overflowing? :: 45
14 :: (32) : How does this hexagram express commitment? :: 58
15 :: (34) : How does this hexagram actively invigorate others? :: 47
16 :: (08) : How does this hexagram passively attract? :: 36
17 :: (03) : How does this hexagram 'sprout'? :: 15
18 :: (29) : How does this hexagram assert containment/control? :: 11
19 :: (60) : How does this hexagram standardise? :: 46
20 :: (39) : How does this hexagram obstruct, go against, stand up to, the flow? :: 24
21 :: (63) : How does this hexagram complete, 'get it right'? :: 2
22 :: (48) : Where does this hexagram get its nutrition, what sustains it, keeps it going? :: 19
23 :: (05) : How does this hexagram wait for opportunity to come? :: 7
24 :: (45) : How does this hexagram celebrate its 'faith'? :: 55
25 :: (17) : How does this hexagram find a faith? What is its faith? :: 62
26 :: (47) : How does this hexagram integrate with the context, be it by choice or otherwise? :: 34
27 :: (58) : How does this hexagram express itself intensely, self-reflect? :: 32
28 :: (31) : How does this hexagram 'woo', express restrained enticement? :: 51
29 :: (49) : How does this hexagram reveal, unmask? :: 16
30 :: (28) : How does this hexagram express excess, go beyond what is required? :: 54
31 :: (43) : How does this hexagram 'seed', spread the word? :: 40
32 :: (23) : How does this hexagram 'housekeep', clear chaff to bring out the wheat? :: 37
33 :: (27) : What is the basic, skelatal form of this hexagram, The mud from which it has emerged? :: 53
34 :: (04) : How does this hexagram learn social skills? :: 9
35 :: (41) : How does this hexagram achieve clarity, concentration, distillation? :: 57
36 :: (52) : How does this hexagram express blocking, discernment? :: 42
37 :: (22) : What does this hexagram look like, how does it present itself to the outside? :: 20
38 :: (18) : How does this hexagram correct corruption, express that correction? :: 61
39 :: (26) : How does this hexagram express 'holding firm' to traditions? :: 59
40 :: (35) : How does this hexagram bring something into the 'light'? :: 13
41 :: (21) : How does this hexagram resolve problems? :: 33
42 :: (64) : How does this hexagram remain 'open', mis-sequence? :: 1
43 :: (38) : How does this hexagram 'mirror', deal with opposition? :: 44
44 :: (56) : How does this hexagram demonstrate conditional loyalty; loyalty at a distance? :: 25
45 :: (30) : How does this hexagram express guidance/direction setting? :: 12
46 :: (50) : How does this hexagram express conversion of the raw to the cooked, transformation? :: 10
47 :: (14) : How does this hexagram manage from the centre? Direct operations? Push ideology? :: 6
48 :: (20) : How does this hexagram elicit admiration and so invigorate others passively? :: 22
49 :: (42) : How does this hexagram reflect augmentation? :: 52
50 :: (59) : How does this hexagram make things clear, dispell illusions? lift the fog? :: 26
51 :: (61) : How does this hexagram express empathy? yielding, soft core, hard exterior? :: 18
52 :: (53) : How does this hexagram express gradual development, maturity? :: 27
53 :: (37) : How does this hexagram reflect rigid structure as a form of tension release? :: 23
54 :: (57) : How does this hexagram cultivate and become influencial? :: 41
55 :: (09) : How does this hexagram express making small gains to be noticed? :: 4
56 :: (12) : How does this hexagram neutralise attacks on its core beliefs? :: 30
57 :: (25) : How does this hexagram stand up to say its piece, ignoring consequences, disentangle? :: 56
58 :: (06) : How does this hexagram compromise, meet half way? :: 14
59 :: (10) : How does this hexagram traverse a path carefully? :: 50
60 :: (33) : How does this hexagram draw-in its enemies, competitively entice? :: 21
61 :: (13) : How does this hexagram express association with the likeminded? :: 35
62 :: (44) : How does this hexagram persuade/seduce? :: 38
63 :: (01) : How does this hexagram express singlemindedness, competitiveness? :: 64

 

[dobro p]

"63 After Completion"

The reason I'm calling it After Fording is cuz of 63.1. There was a place called Dunk Yer Arse one time - some body of water or other in the States - but at a certain point in time officialdom decided to rename it something more genteel. Anyway, that doesn't have anything to do with anything except the image in 63.1 where the fox soaks his tail. A water feature sort of thing. But yeah, both meanings were listed in the lexicon entry you used.

 

[dobro p]

jesed -

"Starting point: primary hexagram
Ending point: tendential hexagram
Forces hitting at starting point: Heaven, Earth and Man (described in the changing lines)"

Described in the main text too. I like the way you explained that. I like the multimensional nature of it. Forces from above, forces from conditioning, and forces of what a person really is.



"So, the alternative path to avoid disorder is to enterprise a new begining.

Therefore, once you had complete some enterprise, you have 2 options:
a) Remain attached to that balance-state achieved (as it would last forever)
b) To be alert to the signs to start a new era.

The first one is an ilusion, and that's why tends to disorder; the second one is a challenge to new growht, and that's why it needs the caution of the fox crossing a big river."

You know, I'd just sum up the whole thing in 63 with 'everthing's in its proper place, but you know you can't hang on to it this way cuz change comes into every situation'.

How your idea has helped me is to remind me about a multidimensional set of forces at work. You know, my original question was aimed at finding out how inevitable and inescapable that 'disorder' in 63 is. I would answer my own question this way now: "For the conditioned self, the disorder is completely inevitable. For heaven, the disorder is either not a problem, or part of the scheme of things. For the person in between, the disorder depends on who's asking and what their level of being is. In my case, that means the disorder is pretty built into the situation.

Nice.


Nice.