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How to move on. Hex. 13 unchanging and 7.3>46

vikk

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Hi all. I hope everyone manages to stay safe and sane during this pandemic.

my husband and I tried to make the best of being quarantined by trying to conceive again. We suffered a heartbreak of a late pregnancy termination almost 2 years ago after trying for years. However, this new effort has not gone well either. We are still not pregnant, no doctor can give us answers why (everything looks normal on paper) and we are at our wits ends. Biological clock is pretty much out (I’m 41) and the only reason we see for us not having kids is just it is not meant to be for us. It is very heartbreaking. We don’t understand why we were dealt this and how come Universe decided that we are such sh””””y human beings who don’t deserve to procreate. It is hard to be around friends with children. In my darkest moments I hate them and wish they suffered the same I went trough. I hate life, God, and myself. I’m thinking how I can shorten my lifetime here because there is nothing to live for. All of the relationships are meaningless and it is hard to wake up in the morning. I’m trying to move on from being angry and learn how to accept childless fate. But it is hard.
I asked How do I move on from hating friends with children And received 13 unchanging.
I feel like IChing doesn’t tell give me any specific advice. Just to get it together and surround myself with people of the same fate. But how can I give up on my friends with children. I still want them in my life even though we are having less and less in common. Do I need to have another heartbreak by giving up those friendships.
thank you all, I would appreciate your input.
love,
vikk
 

Liselle

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:hug:

13's oracle starts, "People in Harmony in the wilds...," which is exactly what you're talking about - people you don't have a lot in common with.

A couple of possibilities:
  • Yi's suggesting you develop these skills (how to create harmony with people you have less in common with). Read a lot about 13 and see what you think. For instance the Oracle section ends with, "A noble one's constancy bears fruit" - maybe that means if you keep with it?
  • On the other hand, it's unchanging. I'm never sure how to interpret those, one idea is the above, work on your "harmony in the wilds" skills - another is there's no relating hexagram so maybe you won't find a way to relate. The good news is there's no deadline here, you can probably take your time with it.
 

Liselle

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Oh - a 3rd idea - look around "in the wilds" for other friends. Not people you have nothing in common with - a slightly different angle saying venture into the wilds, outside of your current friend group somehow.

This has the distinct advantage of fitting your question better (sorry :paperbag: ) - you did ask how to move on, not how to fix things up with your current friends.
 

Liselle

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By the way I do not think your inability to have children has anything to do with you being sh***y people. I mean, for one, it'd be wonderful if sh***y people were somehow prevented from procreating, but it's pretty clear that's not how it works (lol).

That might not mean there's no meaning in it. Am purposely not calling it a "life lesson" to avoid teacher-with-stick associations. But I do believe what happens to us has some soul purpose, if you'll forgive that overly-airy expression. There might be some value in experiencing how this feels, or something. It might be a good question for Yi sometime.
 

my_key

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Hi vikk
Your story of living without children touches my heart. Having the one thing that you want in life waved in your face by others will make seeing your friends difficult unless you can find a way to change your outlook. The trauma you experience through the late pregnancy termination can only be adding to your woes, especially as you are not being offered any medical insights into why you and your husband are not able to conceive. These may indeed be desperately hard times for you both however your inability to conceive does not make you both sh***y people - although I can understand how circumstances might have transpired to put these thoughts into your heads.

So to your question and your perspective that Yi did not offer any specific advice for you.
How do I move on from hating friends with children? 13 unchanging.

Being an unchanging reading this kind of says that there is no quick fix to this. 'Seeking Harmony' follows on from Hex 12 showing that you can move beyond the 'Hinderance' aspects of your life with this reading and start working with the new Hex 13 which has a meaning of 'making the connections'.

The Judgement offers advice to 'cross the great river' and aligned with this the outer trigram of heaven brings creativity to your firey inner strength. There is Motivation and Will just waiting for you to tap into them.

There is a sense in Hex 13 to connect with like-minded people, maybe connecting with couples who are in the same childless situation that you find yourself in will help you to heal and, through that connection, to accomplish much more than you ever could on your own.

The Judgement invites you to 'cross a great river' and to be persevering. Success comes from making the most of what is in the 'open fields' around you. Here you will find the next steps to take in your journey of 'moving on from hating friends with children'. I wonder if you have any inklings yet of what the great river is that you have to cross?

The Image calls for you to find the best you can in yourself to help you negotiate your way through this dilemma. Skills involving thoughtful discernment being brought forward within you would help enormously. Perhaps focussing on the aspects of your relationships that hold you together (your common ground) rather than the things that are driving you apart. There is also an emphasis on you 'organising the clans' which could suggest that it will be easier for you to start with one friend or a small group of friends that you would trust. Perhaps you could even make a connection with your most trusted friend (whether they have children or not) to reveal how you are thinking and feeling - this would be a brave venture in bringing harmony between people. They will then be on the same wavelength as you and could offer you a supportive hand that maybe is not there for you at the moment. The old adage ' A problem shared is a problem halved' springs to mind for me here.

The nuclear hexagram that is behind Hex 13 is Hex 44 Coupling. A place where the supple meets the strong - a question for you here: What is strong in you that needs to be more flexible ? Coupling is providing impetus and opportunity for short-term encounters between parts of us or different situations that do not nomally sit as bed-fellows. These encounters normally act to nip events or ways of thinking or behaving in the bud, that otherwise would have had a longer lasting negative impact on our lives. The nuclear energy here is calling you to begin your journey by jumping on the magic bus with gay abandon and trusting that this will deliver 'harmony with people' to you and move you away from the troubles that are otherwise brewing.

..... or it may be nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck
 
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vikk

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Hi guys! Thank you Liselle and my_key for your insight.
I think to deal with hatred towards my friends with children I will just have to remove myself from them. I don’t need a constant reminder of what I could have had. Plus the areas where we coincide are virtually nonexistent. I don’t understand their problems, they dint understand mine. I was already told by someone’s husband that I have no idea what it is to be truly tired. Oh well maybe I don’t, but I don’t need to spoken to like that. So I think I’m just going to distance myself from them and get closer to those in my social circle who are in the same position.

I also asked So what do I concentrate on now since I’m not going to have a family? And received 25.1.2>6.
It tells me to re-evaluate my plans, goals and dreams. I understand that. But the question was to see if I could be hinted on a particular situation worth concentrating my life energy on. What do you think?
 

Liselle

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(Hilary's book) 25.1 -
'Without entanglement,
Going on, good fortune.'

25.2 -
'Not ploughing and reaping,
Not weeding cleared fields,
And so then it is fruitful to have a direction to go.'

I think it means this will get figured out without you having to worry over it. Just go on with your life (line 1), don't make "what to do" a chore (line 2). Part of line 2 is don't do work you don't have to do.

6 relating might mean especially not right now, when you're sad and angry (emotions you have every right to feel). Give yourself some time.
 

rosada

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Interesting that 13. follows 12. Stagnation as if to say "The way to move on from this stagnant situation [feeling your life has stalled and hating the friends you have less and less in common with] is to make new friends."

Now one wonders, who should these new friends be? My first thought is how about the children? Either your friend's kids or maybe volunteer to help out in a classroom or Sunday School where you'd have contact with children. Having young children in our lives is - in my opinion - an essential but the children don't have to be your own to get the blessing.

Of course, you may find yourself guided to seek out totally new friends but the main thing is the I Ching is saying your feelings of animosity are a result of your Stagnant situation and rather than focusing on changing your attitude about these women, stir things up a bit - find new people entirely - it's a big world out there!

As to what to concentrate on, 25.1.2 - 6 could be guiding you to look back at what you were interested in before you got caught up in the whole marriage/family thing. Return to Innocence. Maybe 6 is urging you to consider what you might think pulled you off course. Like maybe you started out on one path but met with a 6.Conflict (i.e. fell in love) and were not able to pursue those dreams. So maybe the first step in figuring out what to concentrate on is to determine if your old interests have any pull.

Best wishes!
 

vikk

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Thank you, Rosada, for your thoughts.
I do feel more and more that these friendships should be given up and new ones found. It is hard though. There is this one particular friend who it is very hurtful to loose. She is definitely on her separate from me wavelength now even though we were best friends before. Sad to loose her too! She didn’t even share her pregnancy news until she was 5 months along. Makes me feel that she is tiptoeing around me and distancing herself from me like I’m plagued.
As for hex 25, I wasn’t really driven by anything at the point I meant my husband. I was just being a young girl with hopes to meet a nice guy, marry him, etc.
I also asked IChing please comment on my intent to quit trying for a baby. I received 7.3>46
Is oracle saying that I am guided by wrong thoughts, and giving up is not the right thing? Very confused.

Thank you!
 

rosada

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7.3 "Perchance the army carries corpses in the wagon " - Wilhelm

A "best friend" who doesn't tell you she's pregnant for five months?! Definitely a line advising you to lose those dead friendships!

Could also be advice to not continue to stress about becoming pregnant. Let that vision go.
Perhaps because there are numerous stories of women becoming pregnant "after they stopped trying"?
 

my_key

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I also asked IChing please comment on my intent to quit trying for a baby. I received 7.3>46
Is oracle saying that I am guided by wrong thoughts, and giving up is not the right thing? Very confused.
Hexagram 7 means grieving and links with possibilities of stripping away the old.
For this there is guidance in the Judgement and the Image to engage with the strong and disciplined aspects of yourself to provide leadership while at the same time showing care and concern for yourself and for others.

7.3 identifies the uncertainty with you and relates this to 'corpses in a wagon'. Focusing just on carrying the dead bodies will not allow you to plan ahead, or muster your forces to prepare you to move beyond your uncertainty. Is your situation clouded by old memories, out-worn ideas and misleading images that need to be compassionately buried? If so, 7.3 is calling you towards this and asking you 'How best can I achieve that?'.

It may not seem like it but your current situation is based on a premise of Ascending (46) and the persistent qualities that you have utilised to get you to where you are. Building step by step; small gain on small gain. 46 is all about slow and steady advance which is not always easy to achieve, but is achievable. In some cases it can be the very much like 1 step forward and 2 steps back before you can go forward again.

46 calls for adaptabilityof character in order to produce great rewards from at times the seemingly unconnected small advances that you make. The connection of 7 to 46 acknowledges that you are moving forward 'nicely' - for want of a better term - and that you should engage with your leadership qualities and your care and concern, for self and others, that you have successfully utilised and marshalled so far. The quicker you can do this the sooner you will move beyond your doubts and uncertainty.

...or the reading may be nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck
 

rosada

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More thoughts...

Now I'm seeing the response to your question, "What to concentrate on now? 25.1.2 - 6" as saying you went forward into life just sort of innocently assuming that you'd meet a man, fall in love, get married have kids and live happily ever after and then - whomp - it didn't work out that way. It's like that saying, "You want to make God laugh? Tell him your plans." Anyway I think 6. for going forward cautions you to be aware of what you want and the agreements and assumptions you make. You might start by making an actual list.
 

my_key

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Just seen this consultation in rosada's post

"What to concentrate on now? 25.1.2 - 6"

'Without Falsehood' through 'Contention'
'Innocence' through 'Conflict'

A big picture pointer for what you might want to concentrate on now is to focus on finding out who you really are (what is your truth) through voicing your grievances and fighting for what you hold as right.

This advice comes from the Judgements ( Jack Balkin translation):

25:
It is beneficial to persevere.
If one is not what he should be,
He meets with calamity,

And it is not beneficial for him
To undertake anything.


6:
In conflict, be sincere. Be prudent in dealing with obstruction.
To halt halfway brings good fortune.
To carry things through to the end brings misfortune.

It is beneficial to see a great person.
It is not beneficial to cross the great river.


You are swimming in a sea of contention and are being encouraged not to struggle but to understand its causes and how through compromise and negotiation you can settle the disputes in and around you. Recognising anew the importance of settling disputes through flexibility and fair arbitration. Swimming more towards your truth, you will find unexpected movement or events happening and if you spontaneously and naturally follow these they will take you further in the right direction (These are the things to concentrate on!).

Rather than having an agenda or a goal (a river to cross), act naturally and go with the flow: have no expectations. Nothing you will do or try to force through right now is going to help, so relax and wait for the great person to pay you a visit and listen carefully to his / her subtle instructions - perhaps, concentrate on setting up a meeting with the great person if you want to concentrate on anything.

25.1 - Follow your heart.
25.2 - Do the 'work' that is required of you right now and don't focus on any outcome.

...... or it may mean nothing like this at all for you.

Good Luck
 
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rosada

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Olga, Thanks for your insights about why a woman might not want to confide even in her closest friend. Also I wanted to mention that using the word “we” to include the husband when talking about pregnancy as in “we are not pregnant” is sort of the thing now, at least here in California. It does sound weird when you first hear it!
 

Olga Super Star

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They don’t get pregnant, we do. It’s another step towards cancellation of women’s specificity. we mustn’t allow that!
 

Olga Super Star

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I have erased my comment but I believe that if you hate people with children, these people you hate (=envy) will feel it and will try to protect themselves from your envy and negative feelings.
 

vikk

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Hi guys ! I appreciate your time and energy you chose to share with me!!!!
God is laughing indeed, Rosada. I will try to cut back on planning and daydreaming of what I want my life to play out like. It so reminds me of what my cancer survivor friend advised - take it day by day. The more expectations you have the more disappointment you will endure. I’ll take it easy and go with the flow, my_key.
At the end of the day, the emotions you have - negative or positive - should be felt and lived through. All the reasoning and sensibility which is used to explain why you feel what you feel can only help you so much. When you are living through your emotions, you are working through them and diminishing their power over you. This way the emotions can’t take over and you (god forbid) don’t act on them. And sometimes it is great to hear what advise the oracle can offer. At the end of the day it is wise and full of ideas we didn’t think of.
Thanks again you guys! I truly truly appreciate it! Maybe 13 pointed out your community, the fellow IChingers. 🙀😻😸
Love, Vikk
 

my_key

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They don’t get pregnant, we do. It’s another step towards cancellation of women’s specificity. we mustn’t allow that!
Hi Olga

Last time I looked it takes two to tango. Dynamic meets the Receptive in an exotic dance and there aren't too many recorded cases of the Receptive getting pregnant on her own. The whole process of child birth is a 'marriage' of male and female uniqueness. The 'women's specificity' remains whole and unique just as the man's does throughout the 9 months from conception to birth - in fact the magnitude of her specificity and her role in a successful completion grows the closer things get to the end.

Birth is a universal tribute to the female and her uniqueness. Nothing can take that away or diminish that in her. However this unique ability she has of giving birth could not be honoured without the equally unique contribution from the male, albeit over a much shorter time scale.

Pregnacy is achieved through partnership, conversely giving birth is a solitary unique female ability. It's important not to get these two aspects of a sacred process confused - pregnancy and birth. I agree with you that it is important that women regain their sense of belonging after a long time of disempowerment, however approaching this through attempting to disempower other women, i.e. attacking their beliefs, does not appear to me to be a healthy way to go about it.

So for me 'we are not pregnant' is a perfectly natural turn of phrase that reflects the position for vikk and her husband as a couple. If that is their belief then that is their belief and what authority do I have to say whether that is anything but true for them.To use biblical terminology 'we are not with child ' holds an exact and authoritative tone which sums the wider ranging implications of the situation very nicely. Partnership: shared responsibility for conception and equally sharing the responsibility for unsuccesful conception.

It seems like California is a forerunner in bringing this relational perspective out into the sunshine.

Good Luck
 
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Olga Super Star

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No, California is no forerunner and I am not confused between conception and giving birth. Sorry to disappoint you but this language distortion is part of a wider mechanism to crush women.

Men don’t have vaginas, women don’t have penises, two men or two women can’t have children of their own, and men certainly can’t get pregnant. It’s as simple as that. They contribute but it’s women who get pregnant.
To say that you are both expecting, that would be couple inclusion. But pregnant only concerns the female body.
(female=vagina)

What California does is detaching birth from the female body, so that people get convinced that it’s ok for rich sterile couples or rich single men to buy children from poor women and say “We are pregnant”. No, you are not. You are just stealing someone else’s child.
 
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vikk

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Hi Olga. Thank you for sharing your opinion so passionately. However, there are as many opinions as there are people even on such crucial issues as gender equality.
I personally do not see any disempowerment in using We are pregnant. I see it the opposite. Finally, men are acknowledging their roles in creating a human being, family, union. Without their sperm our vaginas are useless. And on the other hand you can’t create a baby without a womb. It is so very interconnected. I feel like before women were lonely in their pregnancies, it was their job only. Men didn’t go to doctors’ appointments or accompanied their wives during birth. My husband was the one who used We are pregnant. It made me feel that he is there for me fully. I felt that he was sharing my nervousness, and later on my pain. We are pregnant from him was yet another very strong proclamation that he is by my side no matter what. And that was very empowering!
 

my_key

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No, California is no forerunner and I am not confused between conception and giving birth. Sorry to disappoint you but this language distortion is part of a wider mechanism to crush women.

Men don’t have vaginas, women don’t have penises, two men or two women can’t have children of their own, and men certainly can’t get pregnant. It’s as simple as that. They contribute but it’s women who get pregnant.
To say that you are both expecting, that would be couple inclusion. But pregnant only concerns the female body.
(female=vagina)
California
What California does is detaching birth from the female body, so that people get convinced that it’s ok for rich sterile couples or rich single men to buy children from poor women and say “We are pregnant”. No, you are not. You are just stealing someone else’s child.
Hi Olga
You are right 'Men don't have vaginas, and women don't have penises'. Being from UK I cannot comment further on California I was just picking up on Rosada's words. I'm not in the least bit disappointed by what you have said. You are voicing your beliefs just as as I am mine. They obviously differ and I can see that you have not moved from your original stance... and nor should you just because of some words I have written. For you the ownership of the pregnancy solely by the woman is very deeply held and this, again for you, in some way closely links to wider conerns you have around issues of rich people buying children. I agree that this is not the healthiest of ways for the mother / child relationship to be honoured.

I do not wish to sway you from you beliefs around pregnancy and the female body although it is clear that not everyone holds the same views as you do.

Good Luck
 
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Trojina

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The term 'we are pregnant' as used in the UK is a light hearted way of talking, it really doesn't run that deep so isn't really any threat.

Also consider that many men now are 'house husbands' they take care of the baby while wife is at work or they take on a good deal of the child care. As men take on more and more responsibility for childcare it's easy to see where 'we are pregnant' comes from.

Also men often now go to prenatal clinics with their partners and so on.


And anyway also it's actually more supportive, it's not just 'I am pregnant all by myself' the man is there alongside.


There's more to worry about in the realm of inequality than the phrase 'we are pregnant'.
 

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Sorry vikk for what you're going through.

I asked How do I move on from hating friends with children And received 13 unchanging.
13 talks about harmony, but also differentiation. Maybe you need to be around childless people for a while?

I was already told by someone’s husband that I have no idea what it is to be truly tired. Oh well maybe I don’t, but I don’t need to spoken to like that. So I think I’m just going to distance myself from them and get closer to those in my social circle who are in the same position.

I also asked So what do I concentrate on now since I’m not going to have a family? And received 25.1.2>6.
It tells me to re-evaluate my plans, goals and dreams. I understand that. But the question was to see if I could be hinted on a particular situation worth concentrating my life energy on. What do you think?
Oh I read this after writing the above! lol. As for your reading: don't concentrate on what you don't have anymore. Avoid this tension and come to peace with your life. Then you'll find a useful, new way to spend your energy, as indicated in 25.2.

They don’t get pregnant, we do. It’s another step towards cancellation of women’s specificity. we mustn’t allow that!
I respect your viewpoint, but see no devaluation in the statement; rather a form of appreciation for the woman's ability to conceive and nurture by being by her side. Compare it to the traditional "spreading one's seeds" mindset where the man would be proud of impregnating as many women as possible without following through.
 
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Olga Super Star

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[I respect your viewpoint, but see no devaluation in the statement; rather a form of appreciation for the woman's ability to conceive and nurture by being by her side. ]

Mine is not just my viewpoint. I am into study groups of feminism, gender bullshit, language, men and women relationships. International groups. I mostly watch and read essays from other women (women who study society and hold PhD).

I had no doubt it was a sentence from a husband. It’s a modern kind of man s appropriation, maybe unconscious, but still appropriation of a once feminine territory.

Expecting means waiting for.
Pregnant means being full of. No man or trans woman will ever be full of (another human being).

It may sound quite harsh, and I am probably hijacking a thread which is not mine so this will be the last thing I will write about it and then I shall eclipse myself into the void again.

I just feel I have to point out whenever I come across man’s distortion of language. Language mirrors reality, and if language is twisted, the sense of reality may get twisted too.

Take this example: adoption.
Adopting a child is something extraordinary and entails parenthood as well, right? the man can show his care and how much he cares and supports her too, but none of them would say “I am pregnant” nor “we are pregnant”.

I can’t be sure in English but here pregnant is only used when you have something inside your stomach. If you adopt a child you can’t say you’re pregnant. even if you adopt him one hour after he is born.

So this Thing of the man saying it to share parenthood has no foundation except that of putting mother and father on the same level and there is a movement of nasty people who are working towards doing that and are spreading new ways of saying like this.

What could easily be the outcome of such an innocence thing as “we are pregnant”? the belief that children don't need their mother more than they need their father > tjerefore > we can get rid of the mother in the first place.

It was not intended as a personal attack on you Vikk!, I just noticed the use of the sentence and went mad, but I know someone started it and started to write it down and say it on tv. It would be interesting to see who actually started it.
By appropriation I mean someone not having something and making it his through words.

End of digression on “we” are pregnant!
 

vikk

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Thank you, Olga, for stopping this discussion.
 

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