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rosada

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I just read an article making the case that the COVID-19 pandemic is a hoax - mainly arguing that the majority of deaths are people who have multiple other issues, doctors and hospitals have been financially incentivized to sign death certificates saying the patient died from the virus when the real cause of death might be something else entirely, and that BillGates and Fauci have stock in companies creating vaccines. I want to ask the I Ching about this but am unsure what would be the best way to ask. Suggestions?
 

Trojina

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I just read an article making the case that the COVID-19 pandemic is a hoax


What kind of people believe this ? What kind of people ?


You surely can't believe it ?


These people who believe this must be on the run from reality, or maybe they are just incapable of facing reality.


So this hoax includes the cooperation of Drs and nurses pretending to dress up in hot uncomfortable PPE, working long shifts and putting people on ventilators, watching them round the clock, saving some not others. So according to these fruit cakes who believe this conspiracy theory all these health workers are just very good actors ?

And why is this so Americentric ? Covid is all over the world, this isn't all about American politicians.




I want to ask the I Ching about this but am unsure what would be the best way to ask. Suggestions?


First you'd have to be clear about your own beliefs. This isn't an America only virus but clearly the author of the article doesn't believe Covid in the rest of the world is real. Possibly he thinks the US is actually the world. So the author is completely out of touch with reality. So what question do you think would be possible ? Why would you even entertain the ideas in this article ? Indeed why would you even read it ? Do you actually think it's true and hence deserves a question ?


This is the 2nd time you floated the idea Covid is a hoax here so can we take it you think it's possible Covid is a hoax ?
 
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moss elk

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It's really quite disturbing that you would think to entertain that madness.

1.1 million people have died from it,
so far.

Please delete this thread.
It is irresponsible and dangerous of you to spread this misinformation.
 
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Trojina

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We have 2 Covid cases in SR right now, they're real aren't they ?
 

rosada

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Neither of you know anything about my beliefs or my situation.

Whatever, I think Trojina's suggestion I ask "What kind of people believe this?" is a good one.
Thank you.
 
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moss elk

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Prejudice?
Monumental, Unbelievable,
dangerous, irresponsible Ignorance!
 

Trojina

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Neither of you know anything about my beliefs or my situation.

Then tell us.

The view that Covid is a hoax is quite offensive as well as ridiculous so the fact you take it seriously enough to want to ask a question about it is surprising to say the least.


Wales has just been locked down, a full lockdown for several weeks. Do you think that is a hoax ? I'd like to know what you think ?

You read the article and take it seriously ?


 
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Trojina

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Wales has just been locked down, a full lockdown for several weeks. Do you think that is a hoax ? I'd like to know what you think ?


In fact large areas of UK are in lockdown. Do you think this is due to, and I use your word 'a hoax'.


Really Rosada ?
 

rosada

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Thank you for asking me to tell you.

First of all, the people calling COVID-19 a hoax here aren't saying it doesn't exist or that the life threatening effects aren't real. Rather it seems they are saying the numbers are inflated, that not all the deaths attributed to COVID-19 are due to to the illness, that hospitals reporting a death is due to COVID-19 get large government payments when reporting a death is from COVID-19 where they would only get about a tenth that amount if the death is reported from being from heart disease or some other cause, and that Bill Gates who has been highly praised for his support of vaccines has actually caused thousands of deaths in past years in countries like India where his untested vaccines caused great harm. So when an article talks about the idea that COVID-19 is a hoax it is not saying the disease does not exist rather it is floating the idea that the response has been politically motivated.

Anyway, yesterday an article came out telling how a very large group of lawyers and doctors are coming together to sue the government for putting out what they are calling false information, which is why the question is foremost in my mind once again.

You ask why I read such stuff. Actually I don't. It makes no difference to me whether this bug is real or not. I just wear my mask and go on about life. However, my partner and several of his friends are consumed by this hoax theory and it is very depressing for me to have to hear the latest Every. Single. Day.
Yet at the same time, I don't want to tell my partner he's not allowed to talk to me! So I was hoping the I Ching could give me some sort of advice as to how to deal with the situation. I followed Trojina's advice and asked "What kind of people believe this?" I got a 43.1.3-47 which says to me "People who may be alone in their struggle (47) and may not have all the facts (43.1) but who are very sincere in their beliefs to the point that they feel called upon to speak out (43.3). I thought that a very appropriate answer as it gives me the compassion not to immediately label them as "dangerous, irresponsible or ignorant."
 

hilary

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Yes, having a partner who has been sucked in by the nonsense would be very depressing. You don't need the I Ching to evaluate the ideas - in fact I'm inclined to agree that using it to 'evaluate' them (in public) would be irresponsible. You'd be lending credence to dubious ideas. Heaven help us if people start thinking the I Ching says wearing masks is all a conspiracy, or whatever. We're in enough trouble. (And with a virus that spreads exponentially, you don't know how much harm you could do by inadvertently persuading one person that this stuff is credible.)

What you need to deal with the ideas is something like Snopes, or fullfact.org.

I agree that Yi might well help when you have to maintain a relationship with someone who's been taken in. The question of why people believe it, why they want to believe it, is interesting. (47 looks to me like a state of isolationism and mistrust.) 'How am I to live with this (and not have it damage our relationship)?' is another good one.
 
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Trojina

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Whatever, I think Trojina's suggestion I ask "What kind of people believe this?" is a good one.
Thank you.



To be very clear I never made any such suggestion. I asked you. You are saying your husband believes this crap. Well sorry but he needs to wake up and face reality.


If it's about how you relate to your husband try posting in SR or CC

If it's a marital issue you could have said that to start with.
 
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IrfanK

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One of these days, I'm going to do an experiment and ask the Yi a question like this, or about the American election or something. I'll try to imagine that I believe Trump is an inspired genius seeking to overturn a corrupt political elite and see what the answer says. Then I'll try to imagine that Biden is a fairly uninspiring, moderately competent alternative and write down an alternative interpretation.

I'm breaking a minor vow by commenting on this kind of issue in the first place, but it is interesting to reflect on the extent to which the Yi just makes it more clear what you already believe.

By the way, in Indonesia, where I live, doctors and others have a pretty strong incentive NOT to record covid deaths. Fairly easy, tests are often unavailable, and if someone doesn't get a PCR test and dies, they aren't listed as a covid death. Our official numbers are bad enough, but who knows the reality. About half a dozen friends have tested positive with rapid tests. Some got really sick, some didn't. One died. Early thirties, no known previous health issues. A bit atypical, she had a sudden heart attack while she was being treated for the covid.

Regarding comorbidities ... well, obesity is a recognized comorbidity, so you've already got about half the population of America covered. Chuck in diabetes, HBP and all the rest and you've got the lot.
 
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IrfanK

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I ... asked "What kind of people believe this?" I got a 43.1.3-47 which says to me "People who may be alone in their struggle (47) and may not have all the facts (43.1) but who are very sincere in their beliefs to the point that they feel called upon to speak out (43.3). I thought that a very appropriate answer as it gives me the compassion not to immediately label them as "dangerous, irresponsible or ignorant."
@rosada, I think that's a good question and a good reading. Or why do people believe this? You know your partner better than I do, but I presume he's not stupid. And I know a fair few other people, some of them quite bright, or at least well educated, who also believe all sorts of conspiracy theories like this. I don't think it really is about intelligence, it's about trust.

People always say that the evidence for, say, global warming is overwhelming. But what they really mean is they trust the scientists and scientific organizations that tell them that. They actually haven't gone through all the data and decided for themselves. Personally, I think it is quite reasonable to trust the global scientific community (with a few major reservations about nutritionists, but that's for another thread). But some people don't. And you can show them piles of data, but they'll flick it away. They still don't trust it.

I can see why some people do have this lack of trust and it's very sad. If you have governments, presidents, global agencies lying to you about all sorts of things, it's very hard to be convinced when other big institutions are actually telling the truth. And that's the 21st century for you. Too many people crying wolf.
 

Trojina

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I think that's a good question and a good reading. Or why do people believe this? You know your partner better than I do, but I presume he's not stupid.

But 'why do people believe this ?' and 'why does my partner believe this ?' aren't the same question. They aren't at all because I don't think one can assume everyone on the planet who thinks Covid (or response to Covid) is a hoax does so for the same reason. It is a very loose question if it's about all the people on the planet who think Covid is a hoax. If it is about her husband that's different but she didn't appear to ask about him just about 'people'.


I can see why some people do have this lack of trust and it's very sad. If you have governments, presidents, global agencies lying to you about all sorts of things, it's very hard to be convinced when other big institutions are actually telling the truth. And that's the 21st century for you. Too many people crying wolf.


With Covid we don't rely entirely on government information surely. We can see there are massive makeshift hospitals being built in the cities we live in, we may know people with Covid and people who have died from it. Also there's reports back from front line health workers.



First of all, the people calling COVID-19 a hoax here aren't saying it doesn't exist or that the life threatening effects aren't real. Rather it seems they are saying the numbers are inflated, that not all the deaths attributed to COVID-19 are due to to the illness, that hospitals reporting a death is due to COVID-19 get large government payments when reporting a death is from COVID-19 where they would only get about a tenth that amount if the death is reported from being from heart disease or some other cause, and that Bill Gates who has been highly praised for his support of vaccines has actually caused thousands of deaths in past years in countries like India where his untested vaccines caused great harm. So when an article talks about the idea that COVID-19 is a hoax it is not saying the disease does not exist rather it is floating the idea that the response has been politically motivated.


What I don't get about this theory is surely if the hospitals get more government money when they report a Covid death wouldn't it then be in the government's interest to aim to reduce the number of reported Covid deaths rather than boost them ?



So when an article talks about the idea that COVID-19 is a hoax it is not saying the disease does not exist rather it is floating the idea that the response has been politically motivated.

It would help if the article didn't say Covid was a hoax at all in the first place. But this motivation that the idea the response is politically motivated is something I just don't understand.

If the government must pay out more money to hospitals for Covid deaths how could it be in their interests to over report Covid deaths ?

And re the US response to Covid it is utterly inadequate so I hear though I understand it's different in different areas.


I don't know anything much about US healthcare but I'm not seeing the logic of why your husband would think the government having to pay out more money would motivate them to invent extra Covid deaths. Don't they want to give hospitals less money not more ?


I agree that Yi might well help when you have to maintain a relationship with someone who's been taken in. The question of why people believe it, why they want to believe it, is interesting. (47 looks to me like a state of isolationism and mistrust.) 'How am I to live with this (and not have it damage our relationship)?' is another good one.

Another suggestion there for a much better question, better because it is directly concerning relationship with husband 'How am I to live with this and not have it damage our relationship ?'.

That's the real question surely. You have said

You ask why I read such stuff. Actually I don't. It makes no difference to me whether this bug is real or not. I just wear my mask and go on about life. However, my partner and several of his friends are consumed by this hoax theory and it is very depressing for me to have to hear the latest Every. Single. Day.


You say it makes no difference to you if this virus is real or not ? It sounds like you aren't sure if Covid is real yourself ? Then there's the real problem that your husband and his friends are pressing misinformation on you (and maybe others) every single day. So I think FWIW rather than distance yourself from the problem by asking about all the people in the world who think similar to your husband it would help more to ask about you and your actual husband as that's what motivated your initial question. That's a more private issue you may not want to share.

Also the most straight forward response to your husband's ideas would surely be to find out what your own ideas about it are and then have a discussion. It doesn't sound like you have a position on those beliefs he and his friends have ? I guess the initial question to us on this thread was part of your research to discover your own point of view about what your husband believes ?
 
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Liselle

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I could see (theoretically) some political incentive to inflate Covid deaths, because - theoretically - you know, if we caused all this massive disruption for relatively nothing, it wouldn't go over well. The fewer deaths there are, the more it feeds the school of thought that lots of people also die from xyz and we don't shut down the whole world for it. I can forgive people who weigh catching Covid on the one hand with having their life destroyed on the other, and decide they'd rather take their chances.

It also doesn't help one bit that Trump was one of those with an exceedingly mild case, despite being in a high-risk group. I had some shameful wishes that he'd get sick enough to actually scare him.

People always say that the evidence for, say, global warming is overwhelming. But what they really mean is they trust the scientists and scientific organizations that tell them that. They actually haven't gone through all the data and decided for themselves.
People don't have to, because it's to the point where they can see it in their own thermometers.

Global warming needed a better p.r. firm. For years, we heard stuff like, "A one-degree rise in global temperature will cause this-and-that calamity!" Of course people didn't believe it because in normal life one degree is barely detectable. (Added - will confess I'm one of those people. I still don't understand it, which isn't to say I don't believe it.)
 
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Liselle

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Something like this might get it across a little better, I think. Granted with less scientific rigor.
1603244650180.png

It's knitting, called the Tempestry project. From the Instagram post, on the left is Austin, Texas in 1900, compared to 2018 on the right. One row per day of the year. The redder, the hotter.
 

IrfanK

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Mark Twain once said something like "Nothing is harder than to get someone to believe something if their livelihood depends on not believing it." People tend to adjust their beliefs to meet their needs. Where I live, almost everyone who has a job where they can where they can work at home or sufficient savings or a generous pension tends to believe that the covid threat is real and that measures like lockdowns are required. Daily workers who aren't eligible for any form of social support aren't so convinced.
 

Liselle

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Yes, that's what I mean, and I can't quite blame them. What's worse, social support won't help if your company ends up going out of business entirely.
 

IrfanK

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Yes, that's what I mean, and I can't quite blame them. What's worse, social support won't help if your company ends up going out of business entirely.
Yaaaaaa. Where I live, the "social security" system for informal workers usually consists of workers who lose their jobs going back to their villages and hunkering down and growing subsistence crops. Jakarta's population expands and contracts with the economy. Except this time, there were road blocks and travel restrictions to prevent them from going anywhere (Not very effective ones, but still). You can definitely see why unemployed workers who usually fed their children and paid their rent on the income they earned that day might find it tempting to believe in a hoax. I get a bit sad when people like that are described as idiots or gullible fools.
 

Trojina

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I could see (theoretically) some political incentive to inflate Covid deaths, because - theoretically - you know, if we caused all this massive disruption for relatively nothing, it wouldn't go over well. The fewer deaths there are, the more it feeds the school of thought that lots of people also die from xyz and we don't shut down the whole world for it. I can forgive people who weigh catching Covid on the one hand with having their life destroyed on the other, and decide they'd rather take their chances.


Bear in mind Covid isn't only in the US it's a worldwide pandemic.

I don't see with the figures of Covid high in other countries also why some Americans find it so hard to digest the fact of the death rates for Covid in the US.

The political incentive you described doesn't make sense since it wouldn't be in the government's interest to shut down the country anyway would it ? I don't see your logic. Why would the government want to shut the country down if it were not for good reason ?


Surprised no one has yet been able to tell me what the financial incentive would be for inflating the number of deaths from Covid ? Rosada said they inflated it to make money but how does the government having to pay more to hospitals make more money ? Be interesting to find out Mr Rosada's reasoning.


That's the thing with the conspiracy theory it has no logic as far as I can see ?




It also doesn't help one bit that Trump was one of those with an exceedingly mild case, despite being in a high-risk group. I had some shameful wishes that he'd get sick enough to actually scare him

He probably didn't have it at all. No one of his age and weight would skip out of hospital after a few days arrogantly whipping his mask off his stupid face. Just by that act alone he's probably caused hundreds of deaths as some will follow his lead, refusing to wear masks and so endangering the lives of others. I know 40 year olds who have had Covid. Months later they are still exhausted.



People don't have to, because it's to the point where they can see it in their own thermometers.

No that's really not evidence of anything much since temperatures on earth have always fluctuated. In Shakespeare's time there was a mini ice age, well the Thames froze over hard enough for them to hold fairs on it. I'm not saying global warming isn't true I'm just saying noting the temperature is hardly hard evidence for it.




Mark Twain once said something like "Nothing is harder than to get someone to believe something if their livelihood depends on not believing it." People tend to adjust their beliefs to meet their needs. Where I live, almost everyone who has a job where they can where they can work at home or sufficient savings or a generous pension tends to believe that the covid threat is real and that measures like lockdowns are required. Daily workers who aren't eligible for any form of social support aren't so convinced


True. I noticed here in the UK that it seemed the more well off isolated first, isolated more fully and for longer. Those lower down the social scale were taking far more risks because they had to or because they didn't have the nice house with all the resources and the family support. So people living in small flats went out more of course. Shop workers, often older women just carried on going to work shopping at the supermarket despite being at more risk. However in the UK most people took Covid seriously regardless. There was no big thing about 'it's our right to do what we want/not wear masks' as there was in the US. In the early days at least much more of a sense of pulling together. A whole different culture to the US and of course we do have social security, furlough schemes etc



You can definitely see why unemployed workers who usually fed their children and paid their rent on the income they earned that day might find it tempting to believe in a hoax. I get a bit sad when people like that are described as idiots or gullible fools.

But apart from such people there are plenty of perfectly comfortable well off idiots, irresponsible well off stupid idiots who post online about Covid as a hoax. Yesterday I watched an English middle class young woman on Tiktok (new addiction of mine) claiming to be a 'Dr' of alternative medicine saying 'hey you don't have to get ill or get Covid, we create our own reality and you are all being fooled about Covid, it's not really a problem if you don't believe in it'. She said she refused to wear a mask anywhere and no one could make her'. It should be and hopefully will be taken down. She doesn't seem to have understood, despite claiming to be a 'Dr' that she doesn't need to wear a mask for her benefit but for the benefit of others. She's quite happy to go into shops and public spaces and spread infection to the older, more vulnerable poorer people. I wouldn't call her gullible, I would call her a dangerous idiot and we can't afford such people because they are literally endangering lives and perpetuating lockdowns and so on. Lockdowns are going to happen as long as idiots keep doing this.

I could just say in normal times this was a young person with no health issues who thought they just discovered the 'you create your own reality' angle, had plenty of money from mum and dad to pursue setting up their little clinic or whatever and believed in their daft clueless reality, no harm done. These days we can't afford such people because there is harm done. Every time that silly woman goes out as the revolutionary she thinks she is with no mask she literally kills people. Hence I can't afford tolerance of such behaviour and don't hesitate to call her and people like her an idiot for an idiot she is ! She's reaching a wide audience, influencing people and she should not be allowed to as she will cause more deaths.
 
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Liselle

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Why would the government want to shut the country down if it were not for good reason ?
Agreed. *I* don't believe it's a hoax.

Also as you said, it would be mind-bogglingly complicated to somehow get thousands of people to co-operate in such a thing, especially when most of those people won't be conspiracy theorists. I mean, it's absurd almost to the point of why am I spending time on this :rofl:

Surprised no one has yet been able to tell me what the financial incentive would be for inflating the number of deaths from Covid ? Rosada said they inflated it to make money but how does the government having to pay more to hospitals make more money ? Be interesting to find out Mr Rosada's reasoning.
I think actually Rosada said it's the hospitals' incentive, not the government.
I just read an article making the case that the COVID-19 pandemic is a hoax - mainly arguing that the majority of deaths are people who have multiple other issues, doctors and hospitals have been financially incentivized to sign death certificates saying the patient died from the virus when the real cause of death might be something else entirely
But again, I personally don't believe there could be enough mis-reporting to make a difference. If hospitals tried to get the people who work there to fabricate a noticeable percentage of death certificates, someone would say something eventually. Secrets like that are impossible to keep.

He probably didn't have it at all.
I don't believe that, either, for the same reasons. I don't think a whole cadre of medical professionals would do such a thing. One doctor, maybe, but the more people who are involved the more likely someone won't go along. I also think faking a diagnosis entirely is different from spinning it afterwards. "Let's make believe I have Covid!" (if the idea would have come from Trump) vs. "Let's not tell the press every detail."

I don't understand it, but it seems to be a weird disease, where some people get horribly sick and others barely have symptoms. I don't find it impossible to believe that Trump could've been one of the mild ones, it's just maybe a bit unfortunate, sad as that is to think.

Just by that act alone he's probably caused hundreds of deaths as some will follow his lead, refusing to wear masks and so endangering the lives of others.
Exactly.

There was no big thing about 'it's our right to do what we want/not wear masks' as there was in the US.
Yes, this drives me nuts. I read something where in 1918 in the U.S. there were people who resisted wearing masks, but it was because they found it annoying, not to make a freaking political statement. Whatever is wrong with us, I'm beyond tired of it.
 

Liselle

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But apart from such people there are plenty of perfectly comfortable well off idiots, irresponsible well off stupid idiots who post online about Covid as a hoax.
Yes, exactly. But I think it might be for similar reasons. People are panicked that what might have started off as a furlough will become permanent. Google "furloughs becoming permanent" and there's a whole raft of scary results from reputable sources. (At least that's what I see on Google.)

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to make darn sure all of this is really necessary.

I mean, even people whose personal economies aren't affected at all, people with jobs that carry on just as well in lockdown as not, it's still really alarming to watch things crumble around you. Even well-insulated gazillionaires are probably concerned that the country is spending trillions of dollars on it.

I guess I can partly see their point without subscribing to it myself.
 

moss elk

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Trojina

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es, exactly. But I think it might be for similar reasons. People are panicked that what might have started off as a furlough will become permanent. Google "furloughs becoming permanent" and there's a whole raft of scary results from reputable sources. (At least that's what I see on Google.)

I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to make darn sure all of this is really necessary.

I mean, even people whose personal economies aren't affected at all, people with jobs that carry on just as well in lockdown as not, it's still really alarming to watch things crumble around you. Even well-insulated gazillionaires are probably concerned that the country is spending trillions of dollars on it.

I guess I can partly see their point without subscribing to it myself.


That really doesn't justify spreading misinformation that can kill people. This isn't all about 'oh well they can't help it lets make excuses for them' because the fact is they endanger life when spreading misinformation. And of course people are worried but the more misinformation is spread the longer time it will take to get rid of Covid. Lots of people are scared but mostly they do what they can to minimise the spread of the virus so we can get back to normal sooner. That's a more effective way of dealing with fear than spreading bonkers conspiracy theories.

As Hilary said


You don't need the I Ching to evaluate the ideas - in fact I'm inclined to agree that using it to 'evaluate' them (in public) would be irresponsible. You'd be lending credence to dubious ideas. Heaven help us if people start thinking the I Ching says wearing masks is all a conspiracy, or whatever. We're in enough trouble. (And with a virus that spreads exponentially, you don't know how much harm you could do by inadvertently persuading one person that this stuff is credible.)


"....And with a virus that spreads exponentially you don't know how much harm you could do by inadvertently persuading one person that this stuff is credible"


Billions of people are worried about their jobs and money it doesn't follow that they go online and gather others and try to convince others it's far less of a threat than it is or convince others it's no threat.


I don't think it's unreasonable for people to want to make darn sure all of this is really necessary.


But we aren't talking about people needing to check it's necessary (which is pretty easy) we are talking about spreading misinformation. They are 2 different things.



Yes, exactly. But I think it might be for similar reasons. People are panicked that what might have started off as a furlough will become permanent. Google "furloughs becoming permanent" and there's a whole raft of scary results from reputable sources. (At least that's what I see on Google.)

Many are worried but they don't make up ridiculous theories and try to convince others of them they do what they can to minimize the spread, that's all anyone can do.

I mean, even people whose personal economies aren't affected at all, people with jobs that carry on just as well in lockdown as not, it's still really alarming to watch things crumble around you. Even well-insulated gazillionaires are probably concerned that the country is spending trillions of dollars on it.


Being alarmed doesn't give anyone the right to spread misinformation, not wear masks and so on given those activities can kill. Of course people are worried but that doesn't mean they spread misinformation.



I guess I can partly see their point without subscribing to it myself.


Oh come on this isn't just a matter of seeing points of view, lives are at risk. I don't have much time for excuses for these people who spread misinformation, it's a criminal act really. I can see why people might want to go back to work and take risks and so on when they have no financial back up but those aren't necessarily the same people who spread misinformation on the internet or socially and so on.


Probably repeated self numerous times here...that's not for emphasis but lazy editing
 

Liselle

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Cornell University analyzed millions of articles and found that in the u.s,
the current president was the source of 38% of the covid misinformation here.
That makes a maddening amount of intuitive sense, :rolleyes2: .

("Infodemic" :lol: )

That really doesn't justify spreading misinformation that can kill people.
Yes. There is a difference between raising concerns about what's necessary, and spreading craziness. "This is a hoax!" isn't the same as "Are we over-reacting?"


Speaking of which - as an exercise only, since I see Hilary's and Trojina's point about readings on this topic - actually, you know what, I'm not going to discuss this here. There's no point saying I agree about not evaluating things publicly with readings, and then proceeding to do it. We have private blogs in Change Circle to use. (Unless Hilary meant she'd rather we don't discuss it at all, in any forum, in which case I can delete it.)
 
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IrfanK

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Here's an interesting case study on someone getting sucked in to conspiracy theories from today's Guardian:


We've all got chinks in our armor. Don't get me started on mainstream nutrition recommendations and guidelines (I draw the line at thinking Lizard People are behind it!) I notice some people here are quite ready to believe that a highly respected medical establishment would be willing to conspire with the President to support fake claims that he had covid. And that's the way it starts ...
 

hilary

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We have private blogs in Change Circle to use. (Unless Hilary meant she'd rather we don't discuss it at all, in any forum, in which case I can delete it.)
Of course not. Post away.

I think it's also worth trying to understand - with or without help from Yi - how human belief works, why we are drawn to conspiracy theories, and so on. (IMO it's because they a) simplify complex issues and b) remove our own responsibility.)
 

Trojina

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I think it's also worth trying to understand - with or without help from Yi - how human belief works, why we are drawn to conspiracy theories, and so on.


I don't, we have a whole area of psychological research devoted to that no doubt. Well people can if they want but there's probably more specific forums for that. As for questions about why everyone in the entire world believes in a conspiracy theory, well you know my view on that.

Also bear in mind some conspiracy theories may turn out to be true in which case all the psychologising of those who believed in it falls through.


Unfortunately somehow this thread became about conspiracy theories in general which is off the point.


Some conspiracy theories are really very harmless. Many believe Princess Diana was killed deliberately, that doesn't really harm anyone. Some people believe the royal family are lizards, that doesn't really harm anyone.

Here we were talking specifically about the propagation of the idea that Covid is a hoax, at least I was. That particular conspiracy theory kills people because those who believe it can influence others to think it's a hoax and so more risks less care will be taken. And whilst the conspiracy theorists themselves may remain well they don't know how many older people they killed off while they were wondering about maskless etc.

So to divert from that issue to


I notice some people here are quite ready to believe that a highly respected medical establishment would be willing to conspire with the President to support fake claims that he had covid. And that's the way it starts ...

This thread was about the specific idea of Covid as a hoax and a question about that which led to discussing Covid as a hoax. That belief causes actual harm. To think that maybe Trump didn't have Covid doesn't kill lots of people, most conspiracy theories don't. So turning it around and just saying 'And that's the way it starts..' is to deny the real issue about this particular conspiracy theory.
 

IrfanK

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The conversation evolved. Anything other than a specific response to Rosada's inquiry about how to form the question is a "diversion," really, and that never really went anywhere. So I'm just going along with the general trend.
 

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