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How to Read for Other People?

lindsay

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Nobody has talked about how to do readings for other people lately, and there's been so much recent wrangling in the Friends Area over procedure and technique, that I thought I'd offer some ideas based on good divinations I've seen.

Personally I know I'm not a very talented reader, but I've always been interested in improving my skills and trying to understand how the good readers do it. Here are some observations. I offer these only to prime the pump on a topic I really think we should be talking about once in awhile. What do you think?

Here's what I've seen:

A divination is a performance. It is not like solving an algebra equation or chatting at a party. The context, surroundings, and demeanor of the divination help establish the gravity (or frivolousness) of the event. Like a concert solo, a divination is about expressing oneself and not expressing oneself. In the best divination the Yi seems to do all the work. The best diviner appears to do nothing much except say what is obvious to all. The querent should come away thinking, “Hey, anyone can do that!”

1. The Warm-Up. Establish a friendly, sympathetic, non-threatening, but authoritative relationship with the querent. You’re there to help, but only by interpreting the Yi.

2. The Question. Restate and explore the querent’s question. Clarify ambiguities. Alert querent to possible problems in interpreting the answer based on the structure of the question. What does the querent really want to know?

3. Elements of the reading. Briefly identify and review the elements of the reading you plan to use: the primary hexagram, the moving lines, the component trigrams, the relating hexagram, the fan-yao, etc. If you are planning to do a complex or unorthodox reading, explain the stages of the reading and their interrelationship. The querent wants to know in advance what procedure you plan to follow and roughly where the answer is going to come from. Readings often proceed from the general to the specific, spiraling down from the somewhat lofty standpoint of ancient texts and symbols to the detailed concerns of the querent.

4. The general situation indicated by the reading. Using Yi text and symbols, focus on the broad meaning of the primary hexagram and its possible application to the question. Component trigrams and hexagram pairs can be helpful in illustrating the hexagram’s inner dynamics.

5. The specific details of the situation. Using text and symbols, explore the moving lines in an effort to move from the general to the specific. Keep in mind the querent is very interested in micro-level analysis of the problem, if you think you can do it based on the reading. Moving lines always modify the general ideas of the primary hexagram to explore the details of the current situation. Moving lines are usually interrelated, showing a developing situation or sketching a possible course of action. The fan-yao can be considered here, or below in discussing of the relating hexagram.

6. Contingent aspects of the situation. Using text and symbols, explain how the relating hexagram “relates” to the primary hexagram in general and to the moving lines in particular. There is a lot of interpretive latitude in this step. The relating hexagram usually shows the querent the overall movement of the reading. While the primary hexagram explains the logic of the current situation, the relating hexagram shows the primary hexagram in motion, developing, impacted by outside considerations and causal factors, possibly spinning off into future consequences. In my opinion, this is the step requiring the most skill, because interpreting the relating hexagram first brings the final form of the reading into view. At this point, the querent should begin to understand what the Yi is saying about the question at hand.

7. Interlude. Put the querent at ease. All the pieces of the reading are now on the table. You have just completed an extended and somewhat arcane analysis based on ancient Chinese symbols and text. Bring the querent back to earth. Tell a story, make a joke, get personally warm long enough to dispel shades of the lecture hall. Diviners are not a buddies or an advocates, but they are a servants.

8. Restatement. Restate the question, then review all the relevant pieces of the reading, showing how they fit together into a coherent answer. Discordant elements must be acknowledged, but should not be over-emphasized. You are assembling a puzzle in front of the querent, the object is to arrive at a clear answer. This can be a messy process – but the querent needs to understand where the answer came from. Trust and confidence depend on not being too glib, not making all the pieces fit too snuggly, keeping a few windows open and a couple of doors ajar.

9. Summary. Summarize the answer to the querent’s question as clearly and directly as possible. Give whatever advice or additional commentary you think is warranted. This is what the querent actually asked for – the rest of reading has just been a journey to this point. This is the product. (A deeper view – not necessarily shared by or with the querent – is that the divination process itself is the most active and beneficial component of the reading: the thinking, weighing, reconsidering, judging, discarding, accepting, resolving that goes with making sense of the Yi.)

10. The Close. Wrap it up on a high, positive note. No situation is so wonderful that caution is inappropriate. No problem is so difficult that hope and determination cannot help. Things change. Isn’t that the basic premise of the Yi? This is also the time to remove your self from the picture, and to put responsibility for the question squarely on the shoulders of the querent. The querent has to decide what to do, not you. Let the querent go away feeling they have a choice and are capable of making it. This has nothing to do with you, this is just how life works, and the Yi is life’s mirror.
 

rosada

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How to read for other people?

10.6 - 58

The superior man fortifies the thinking of the people.

Look to your conduct and weigh the favorable signs.
When everything is fulfilled, supreme good fortune comes.

The superior man joins with his friends for discussion and practice.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Lindsay,

This is a great diviner outline, and I could see how well it fits into a one-on-one reading scenario. The problem here is in applying it in a group reading session, such as we have here on this board. Rarely can an interpreter gather full attention of the querent so that this systematic approach can be effectively employed. The crossfire of interpretations can be very confusing to the querent. Unfortunately (see next paragraph), too often a querent wants to know what they “should” do, rather than to understand the conditions which surrounds their question, from where their answer can emerge.

A second thought on this is that, often a querent isn’t interested in how the answer is derived in the kind of detail you’ve outlined. This places the interpreter into an ambiguous position, which weakens the potential effectiveness of communicating their interpretation to the querent. So what can one do in such a case but to cut to the chase?

I still think it’s a great outline. I’d be interested, though, how this might be streamlined to fit into a group reading scenario.
 

lindsay

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Hi Bruce!

Actually, I was thinking about the whole process of reading for other people as opposed to reading for ourselves. Sitting down with another person. I just listed some ideas about how such a session might be handled based on what I've seen. In this forum people don't seem to talk much about how they deal with this kind of session. Maybe nobody reads for other people.

It's true the "group" readings people do here seem to be a different animal. I'm often surprised how casual and thoughtless they tend to be. I think many people would handle them quite differently if they were talking to the querent face-to-face.

Since this is alledgedly a website devoted to Yijing divination, I hoped someone might care to discuss how it's done.

Let's take you as an example, Bruce. Do you read for other people? Aren't you on Hilary's professional diviners list? Well, how do you proceed? What is a reading like with you as the diviner? What specifically do you do for the querent? What do you consider an adequate reading? How do you know what to do? What's your mode of operation?

Lindsay
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Lindsay,

Yes, I read for others some, oh I dunno, maybe 5 times a week or more. I don’t follow any particular guideline or format, and it depends on whether they are interested in the Yi or if they just could use a little guidance with a dilemma. Rarely do I read for strangers anymore, so there’s a bit of history and trust that’s been developed with them over time.

One such acquaintance wants to actually learn about the Yijing, to be comfortable consulting and interpreting on her own. In her case, we spend time on the phone discussing basic principles, philosophy and such. She’s more of a student, you could say, than someone who just wants an immediate answer. I interpret for her about once a week, as she’s going through some major life changes and asks for a helping hand. Working with her readings, I go into explanations as to how I arrive at her answers. For most others, they really don’t care too much about all that, so there’s no reason to go into it with them.

In general, I ask lots of questions and steer them to finding their own answers, not unlike a business consultant would do, or a doctor, lawyer or pastor. I summarize and reach a resolution they feel comfortable with, but before I can do that there’s some things they must tell me. Asking the right questions is at least as important as giving the right answers, and it has to follow in that order. It must be a cooperative and interactive exchange or I’m just not interested in getting into it. Sometimes it’s conducted very casually, sometimes more formally. It just depends on the person, really.

One interesting thing, I can’t recall the last time I was asked to decipher a frivolous or insincere question/answer. The friends and acquaintances I read for know better than to ask.
 

martin

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I rarely do face to face I Ching readings so I can't say much about that. But what I noticed in other areas that I'm more familiar with (teaching, counseling and astrology readings once in a while) is that some teachers etcetera prefer a structured approach and plan things beforehand in detail while others go more "with the moment" and whatever it brings.

I definitely belong in the second category. I rarely plan, I don't know what I will do or say next or even how to start. I improvise a lot and my head is 'empty' most of the time. The only guideline for me is the wish to reach the other somehow. How? I will see (I hope).

Maybe I'm mistaken, Lindsay, but judging from the 10 point program :) that you presented it seems that you prefer 'structure'. Is that true?
I ask this because I think it's very important to find your own style, the style that suits you. And if you say "I know I'm not a very talented reader", well, maybe you are! :) But perhaps you need another approach, a different style.
Less structured? More? I don't know, what do you think?
 

rosada

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I like the answer I got when I put the question to the I Ching.

10. The superior man fortifies the thinking of the people.

This suggests that the deviner need not have all the answers, that the seeker might be able to figure things out for himself quite satisfactorily if he could just think streight. The diviner's role is to "fortify" the seekers own thinking, or as Bruce said, "steer them to find their own answers." The way to do this is discribed in 10.6:

10.6 Look to your conduct and weigh the favorable signs.
Our lives are said to be the exact mathmatical manefestations of our words deeds and intentions. If we can courageously look at our own actions and motivations, then we should have no trouble knowing what the result will be. Few of us are always strong enough to look at ourselves so clearly, however, so this may be where the services of a diviner come in. Just as when we die and supposedly an angel stands beside us while we under go a life review, nothing interpretive need be said. We simply watch as our life flashes before our eyes. The presence of the angel gives us the courage to look, I guess. Likewise, the diviner reads the I Ching, explains the symbology, but avoids putting their own spin on it, leaving it as much as possible to the seeker to experience the "Aha!" moment.

58.The superior man joins with his friends for discussion and practice.
After reading the oracle, 58 suggests the diviner and the seeker discuss as equals - not as all knowing psychic or therapist and lump - what the message might be.
 
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hilary

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Excellent topic Lindsay, thank you. Here's my 'formula', such as it is, for live readings:

1. Understand as best you can. Listen a lot while the querent talks about the issue. It helps if you can remember not only the details of what they say, but also the kind of imagery they use.

2. The question - like Lindsay said. There's an art to this.

3. Personally, I wouldn't describe elements of the reading at this stage. Like Bruce said, not everyone wants to know. The first thing I offer is the framework created by the two hexagrams (or one hexagram). 'This one talks about the nature of the problem, this one talks about how to deal with it,' for instance. The first priority is to know roughly how the oracle's addressing their question - eg 'making this choice is like crossing a river', 'doing this interview is like treading behind a tiger' - so they have an 'anchor' to relate to before you dive into textual details.

3. Pause and listen to feedback. (OK, I'll assume from now on that this goes without saying.)

4. Dive into the text of the hexagrams - sometimes starting with the relating hexagram if that's the easiest to identify with. Always read out what the oracle says, never assume you know what's relevant and can paraphrase.

5. Moving lines - I often (not always) conclude with these after setting the scene with both hexagrams. It means they're in context - context someone familiar with Yi would automatically be aware of. It also makes them easier to remember, especially if I highlight them as 'the heart of the reading'.

(At this point I'll be using fan yao, zhi gua, line pathways and all that jazz. I won't talk about where all this comes from, though, unless I'm asked.)

6. Restate question and answer - as a dialogue. Summarise the reading. Try to provide a 'takeaway' - a memorable phrase, image, choice...

I find the key to all this is what Stephen Karcher told me when I was starting out doing phone readings, and quite scared I'd go blank. Trust the oracle. This is a conversation between querent and oracle; I won't necessarily understand everything that's going on. There will most likely be imagery that reflects the person's inner conversation; sometimes there'll be language that directly echoes a saying or slogan that's of key importance to them. It's not my job to know in advance what'll be important or what'll happen; it's my job to notice these things as we go along.

OK, cauliflower's cooked, got to run... ;)
 

lindsay

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Thanks everybody for the great responses. Rosada, I could spend hours talking about the junzi and its evolution as a technical concept through 3,000 years of Confucian philosophy, but I'm really trying to get at something different here. I'm not very concerned about what the Yi thinks about how to do readings - I know the Yi is likely to tell me something quite different than it told you - I'm interested in how actual people who read for others approach that task. Let's say divination is a piece of work like writing a computer program. Who would you ask if you wanted to know how to write a program? What kind of information would you be looking for? What are some of the problems you would want to discuss? That's how I'm looking at divination right now.

Many years ago I read a fascinating little book called "The Psychic Sourcebook: How to Choose and Use a Psychic" by Frederick G. Levine. This book is a gem. It was advertised on its cover as "a comprehensive consumer guide to card readers, clairvoyants, astrologers, healers, channelers, and other New Age consultants" - and surprisingly that's exactly what it was! Levine took the position that many people feel attracted to psychic consultations, but have no idea what psychics do or what to expect from a consultation. Everyone is afraid of charlatans or obscurantists, that they won't understand what is going on, that they will come away disappointed and cheated. So Levine interviewed dozens of professional psychics and asked them to talk about their work from the point of view of a consumer. This is where the book gets really good, because it turns out these people were dying to talk serviously about their craft. Most of them had very high professional standards, and were even more outraged by imposters and poorly-trained practitioners than consumers. A large part of the book is simply transcripts of long conversations with psychics about the business. Levine was an acute interviewer, and I finished his book with a new respect for working psychics as hard-working and honest professionals. It was as though the author had talked to several dozen expert programmers about the practical craft of programming.

This is why I cannot buy what Martin and Bruce are saying. No professional goes into a work situation without a plan. Amateurs stumble through jobs, going willy-nilly from one thing to the next, but experts have maps in their heads based on experience. What I was hoping to do here is (1) show that this is true of expert Yi readers, since I thought some amateurs in this forum might be interested to know this, and (2) try to get a glimpse of the maps the experts are using.

My own map is nothing more than a foil. I dreamed it up in about 20 minutes, because I felt no one would respond to this issue without being prodded by details. I expected many would find a lot to object to. I am not and will never be a professional diviner, but I might go see one sometime. I have in the past. What should I expect if I do?

Managing expectations is a huge problem, even when you are reading for yourself. Many times I have been crushingly disappointed by the vagueness and ambiguity of my own readings. This is a unique problem for readers of the Yi. I can tell you from experience that psychics in other areas have a command of relevant detail no Yi diviner can match. So my next question is: How do you get people to come to the Yi with realistic expectations for the results? I don't think sceptics are a problem - any hit will impress them, since they expect failure. But what about querents who really expect the Yi to solve their problems, to come up with the answer? How do you deal with their expectations and impatience with the rigamarole of symbolic interpretation? How do you get them to go away satisfied? Please don't tell me you just leave it to the Yi. If a querent tells you they don't understand what you're talking about, that the answer doesn't make any sense, that they still do not know what to do, that they are still confused and undecided - you're human, right? disapproval hurts - well, what do you do?
 

hilary

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No professional goes into a work situation without a plan.
Hm. I think many professionals go in with highly flexible plans. Think of tennis players, or concert pianists. You practice, and then you become completely responsive and ready to improvise.

And for question two... this actually isn't a situation I find myself in very often at all. I do some 'managing of expectations' before we start - no predictions set in stone, no decisions taken for you - I suppose, and I talk with people and answer questions until they're clear on what the reading says. (It's not my job to have them know what to do!) For the rest,
Please don't tell me you just leave it to the Yi.
OK.
 
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bruce_g

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Hi Lindsay,

I understand what you’re saying about “professional” psychics and readers and such, and not buying a loose or haphazard approach. A couple of comments on this.

First, I don’t consider myself a professional reader. As I’ve said, I approach interpreting on a pretty casual level. But this doesn’t mean I don’t take it seriously.

I spent a few hours jamming with some friends last night. The other guitar player's brother was in town – one incredible bass player! We played through a number of musical styles: jazz fusion, rock, blues, country, abstract free form; some Billy Holiday, Coltrane, Grateful Dead, etc. There were only a couple of moments during the evening when music theory ever entered my mind during the session. I just simply “played”. Truth is, I have little idea of what I was playing. I wasn’t thinking of the names of the chords or structure of the melodies, I just played what felt right. The others, I’m sure, played in similar fashion. It came together in sort of a magical, intuitive way. Extremely rewarding night of fun and creativity, and at no time did we sound like amateurs. How we made the music wasn’t important. What mattered is that music was made, even though there were no charts to follow. What each of us had was first the ability to listen and hear the whole sound, the ability to hold back, to blend our parts into the whole. There was no concern of being professional, but what came out made each of us smile like little buddha babies. Ah, yes…

So, while you may be of a different school of music, and while you may have had difficulty joining in with your cello without music charts, not everyone does. If you asked me to interpret a Yi reading for you, knowing your requirements for meticulous details, I’d refer you to Hilary, who is better suited to satisfy your requirements. But understand, not every querent has your requirements.

It isn’t that I work with no structure, but that the structure is (by now) embedded into my subconscious. I don’t consciously think about what I’m saying or doing, I just do it. Likewise, in discussions here on the Yijing, I don’t think “about” it very much. I’m better at becoming it than I am at talking about it. It’s just a different approach, and it’s not compatible with everyone.
 
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hilary

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If I could've come last night, I would have left the 'cello behind and just listened. :)
 

lindsay

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Never mind. It seems everything I say is wrong. I'm wasting your time. It was wrong for me to hope for candor from the experts - obviously this isn't the place or the time. I'll be back when I think of some amusing chit-chat about using incense.

Lindsay
 
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bruce_g

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hilary said:
If I could've come last night, I would have left the 'cello behind and just listened. :)

Oh, I wouldn't have let you off the hook that easily. :mischief:
 
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bruce_g

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lindsay said:
Never mind. It seems everything I say is wrong. I'm wasting your time. It was wrong for me to hope for candor from the experts - obviously this isn't the place or the time. I'll be back when I think of some amusing chit-chat about using incense.

Lindsay

Sorry I couldn’t be of any help. Trying to impress you wasn't my intent. Communicating was, just as with the readings I do.
 
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bruce_g

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Lindsay,

Ok, I’m going to have another go with answering your question.

First, I dress for success, as all professionals should, because packaging builds confidence in my client’s mind. Suitable attire includes Newbuck Birkenstocks, just in the case my client is anti-animal skin conscious. My jeans are fashionably faded, and my hemp Padigonia pullover bears an ecology emblem - the green one from the 60’s? This is to create the aura of longevity in my craft. My hair is thoughtfully ruffled and my five o-clock shadow communicates a monk-like image: detached from worldly considerations.

Next, I light a stick of Nah Champ incense to create the right ambience and induce a trance-like state. This prepares the mind and heart of the querent for something really cool to happen – a message from beyond perhaps.

I seat the querent upon an Indian throw pillow, which I bought at a garage sale. This connects the querent with the ancestors.

With the stage set, I begin.

1. I ask the querent to give me the background to their question. This may include such things as: how long this problem has existed, how it has impacted their life, what changes they would like to bring about through this consultation, and whether they are taking any anti-depressant medications. (kidding, of course)

(Ok, more serious now.)

2. I explain the fundamental principles of oracle consultation, what they can and should not expect from the reading.
3. Next, we formulate the question, which focuses either on what their situation looks like or what course of action would be most beneficial.
4. I hand the coins to them and ask them to drop them six times. As I construct the hexagram, I explain the procedure and answer any questions they present about the process.
5. Once the hexagram(s) have been drawn, I explain the name and meaning of the relating and primary hexagrams, and the significance of change lines, should there be any.
6. I share the text from either Wilhelm or LiSe, depending on which I perceive would resonate with them. Once generalities are covered I ask for their thoughts on how this might apply to their situation. I don’t proceed until they can offer their thoughts, even if they are only sketchy.
7. I explain in more detail the general meanings on each hexagram.
8. Ask again for their impressions so far.
9. We proceed to the changes, from bottom to top.
10. Ask for their impressions so far.
11. We examine the relating hexagram, and I explain the “canvas for the painting” analogy,
12. We share an open dialogue about the images given. This is usually a turning point, where they begin to solve their own riddle. I give a little, they give a little, and so on, until the meaning begins appearing to them. Once I’m satisfied they’re getting the message, we move on to the change lines.
13. We follow the same procedure with each line.
14. Then, my posture relaxes, and they always follow suite. A deep breath, a moment or two of reflection.
15. I ask what they think. They respond.
16. I offer to clarify, fill in missing spaces.
17. We reflect some more.
18. I watch carefully their body language and especially their facial expressions. If in reality this is conducted by phone, I listen to the tenor of their voice. If it’s in chat, I empath their emotions. I want to see, sense, feel them, even more than wanting to know their thoughts.
19. I ask for their thoughts.
20. More exchange between us, working toward a clear course to follow to attain their most desirable outcome.
21. Another crossroad. An essential one. Is their answer directly responding to their question, or, is the Yi speaking to their need for self development? This crossroad can make or break a reading, and it depends on how much responsibility the querent is willing to assume, and that determines the depth of what can possibly be benefited from the reading. It’s also a time I must remain flexible, in spite of my own wish to drive the importance of self development home to them. I will not argue with them over it. If they go away unhappy, I can live with that, though of course that’s hopefully not the case.
22. We establish agreements of the best course of action, permissible through their own willingness and abilities.
23. End of reading.

I had to consciously think about this before I could respond in a way which more earnestly addressed your question. I really don’t think about it during the consolation.
 

heylise

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I am a bad diviner. When someone asks me to throw the coins and say something, I am quite sure, that I cannot say anything relevant. Let alone give any solution.

But sometimes, suddenly I 'know'.

Maybe some day I will be so far that I know that I know, but that day is still far off.

I have looked a bit at Tarot, and it is very interesting, but compared to the Yi, extremely easy. Not that being a Tarot diviner is easy, divining never is. But with Tarot, it is comparatively easy to find answers and images.
I have done astrology myself, and that is a lot more difficult, but still easy compared to the Yi. Asks a huge lot more left brain stuff, but less right brain than the Yi. You can study for left brain, but not really for right brain. That does take practising, but also letting go, and it seems that the part of letting go, is the hardest part.

When I have a clear image myself of a hexagram, it is easy to interpret. And that is not the image I find in any book. It is the simple tangible picture a hexagram found in myself. So simple, that it encompasses all meanings of that hexagram. E.g. for 22 an image of a flower, that I have seen in my backyard. It was a big bud, and early spring, and that bud had to burst open, despite the cold, nothing on earth could stop it. It was every meaning 22 can possibly have. Beauty, energy, life-power, the power of herbs which can heal, the energy of nature herself.

When I know the answer of the Yi, how the coins have fallen, I start with the relating hexagram. "This is where you are now." I try to convey that image, and usually that is all I need to do. It is so simple and universal, that it can be used by anyone. Next step is "Now let's see what you can do."

Again I start with the simple image of the hexagram itself, and after that the lines are often not that hard. We have the book open, or the webpage, and try to find the meanings together. Sometimes I get an idea, but just as often, the querent suddenly sees something I had not even thought of. We both learn lots of things.

It is not really divining for someone, feels more like searching together.

LiSe
 

Sparhawk

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lindsay said:
Never mind. It seems everything I say is wrong. I'm wasting your time. It was wrong for me to hope for candor from the experts - obviously this isn't the place or the time. I'll be back when I think of some amusing chit-chat about using incense.

Lindsay

Well, I don't think you are wasting anybody's time. I find the subject fascinating although I barely consult for others. On the other hand, I'm afraid that what you are looking for, regarding Yi consultations and a need for structure, either doesn't exist or has been lost to us. Most likely the latter. You also made a comparison above between the richness of details in other divinatory and psychic systems and Yi's apparent lack of such details and I feel that such a comparison is the proverbial "apples and oranges" one. They are both fruits but that's about the end of it. I also feel the potential for receiving a bucket of BS from a "professional" reader is much greater in such systems than it is with the Yi. Ultimately, the answer to any consultation remains with the querent, not the reader, if he/she are not one and the same. This need to fully digest an answer for a querent and pulling details out of the air may impair his/her judgement and options going forward.

L
 
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hilary

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bruce said:
"I seat the querent upon an Indian throw pillow, which I bought at a garage sale. This connects the querent with the ancestors."
happy0188.gif


(It's the devil of a job to describe what you actually do, though, isn't it?)
 

frank_r

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Lindsay, I also think it's interesting to hear how other people use the Yi when consulting other people.

I use the Yi in different ways;

1.When I do a reading(not so often, usually for friends and once in while for unknown people), I ask if somebody wants one with the coins, or a insight reading with I ching cards. http://www.anton-heyboer.org/i_ching/origins/index.html then look under Sitemap- structures - The big pattern(Boering) the Bagua as lay-out map

I really like the last one, because you get also a sort of a timeline in your story. Sometimes I know ,sometimes I don't know the question(that's easier for me).
I try to be guided by the Yi and not by the question because usually the question is only a begining of a deep proces into the deeper layers of a person.

2. Sometimes I give a lecture and then I make a sort of hexagram with the group, 6 people all give a line. Then we have a hexagram with the group, and I try to discuss what everybody sees in this hexagram. I'm also part of the group and sometimes others explain me new things about the hexagram we made together. I always learn a lot when doing it this way. The Yi gives the structure to the discussion.

3. I use the I Ching in acupuncture. First I make a TCM diagnoses, then convert this to a trigram and work with the 8 houses of Jing Feng. All hexagrams have a connection with the most important acupuncture points. So using acupuncture points I use the Yi without talking only with bringing the Qi of the hexagram into the patient. I love working like this. I feel this works on a very deep subconcious level.
 
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bruce_g

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hilary said:
(It's the devil of a job to describe what you actually do, though, isn't it?)

Yes. To read for someone else I have to empty my mind. So what is there to recall? :confused:
 

martin

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Bruce! :D

lindsay said:
No professional goes into a work situation without a plan. Amateurs stumble through jobs, going willy-nilly from one thing to the next, but experts have maps in their heads based on experience

I don't believe you can judge the expertise of people by how methodical they are in their work. Even in such a 'structured' field as computer programming you will find a wide range of personal styles. Some programmers are very methodical and like to plan everything ahead, to the minutest detail, others do that much less. But that does not say anything about the quality of the programs they write.

I think what is important, especially when you work with people, is to find the right balance between structure (method, plan, etcetera) on the one hand and "listening to the moment" on the other hand.
But what is 'right' depends on yourself, what suits you best, and on the other, what suits him or her best or what he or she needs.
And many other factors. The mood of yourself and the other, how fresh or tired you and they are, the subject at hand, the kind of incense that is available and so on. :)

How to find the right balance for this unique moment? One has to listen to the moment to find it. So the ears come first.
But I'm prejudiced toward listening, I guess :)
 
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martin

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lindsay said:
I'll be back when I think of some amusing chit-chat about using incense.

Nah! What you call chit-chat may be meaningless for you but for some it is valuable emotional communication. Feeeeeeeeling!

Personally I often value 5 minutes of chit-chat about the weather (or the price of tomatoes or their color or incense or what have you) more than an hour of socalled brilliant intellectual discourse.
Brilliant! Pffffffff!

But I guess I'm prejudiced again (fyi, I'm a Cancer). :)
 

hollis

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good gosh no

Lindsay! DONT say you are wasting our time! This is a fascinating discussion you have started!!!
 

rosada

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Once we're into the reading I gage how I proceed by the responces of the individual. However, having a ritual at the beginning helps me know at what level I can reach the seeker. Therefore I always start my readings exactly the same way, "Give me your name and your birthdate." Considering the truism that "How you do anything is how you do everything," I find that how the person responds to this request reveals a great deal about their inner nature. That is, if they speak clearly and without fanfare I know their issue will be fairly streight forward and can be resolved without having to dig too deep. On the other hand, I am always amazed at how much drama a seeker can inject into this simple exchange. "Do you want my first name and my last name?", "Why do you need to know?", "Well my birthname is Fred, but I go by the name George cause my grandfather... etc. etc." and of course, "You're the psychic, you tell me!" All this gives me a pretty good idea as to the caller's real problem in life - too timid, too suspicious, too boring or too hateful - before we even toss the first coin.
 
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hilary

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You know, that's one of the best reasons I can think of for learning astrology: a perfect excuse to ask people's date of birth. I'd like to know when my customers' birthdays are, but they're frequently wise to the fact that dob isn't involved in Yi readings. How to find out when to send a card without being really unsubtle about it?
 
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bruce_g

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hilary said:
You know, that's one of the best reasons I can think of for learning astrology: a perfect excuse to ask people's date of birth. I'd like to know when my customers' birthdays are, but they're frequently wise to the fact that dob isn't involved in Yi readings. How to find out when to send a card without being really unsubtle about it?

Um, I like to send b'day cards to my clients. What's your dob?

Or, you could ask Yi. :rofl:
 

hilary

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Hm - what's the betting you'd get, say, hexagram 3 for everyone? ('When's her birthday?' 'It's the day she began.')
 
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lightofreason

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hilary said:
You know, that's one of the best reasons I can think of for learning astrology: a perfect excuse to ask people's date of birth. I'd like to know when my customers' birthdays are, but they're frequently wise to the fact that dob isn't involved in Yi readings. How to find out when to send a card without being really unsubtle about it?

tell them you are running a trial on Plum Blossom method...
 

rosada

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oooh, I like that Chris. Good answer!
 

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