How to Read for Other People?

[lindsay]

Wow! I've been afraid to look at this string for the past 36 hours - lately I seem to be performing more false endings on Clarity than a Beethoven symphony. Now there's more to talk about than I could have imagined! Thank you so much!

The one thing I'm very, very, very curious about is why Hilary or anyone else would want to know a querent's date of birth? Is it for some definite reason (I won't even whisper the phrase 'plum blossom'), or more like a generational thing? Is it different reading for a 20-year old mad in love than for a 40-year old mad in love? Or is it a case of Gen Y vs Gen X vs Boomer, etc. - a kind of fundamental difference in values or gestalt that makes it necessary to adjust one's response to the audience? It's certainly true someone who's 103 like myself has a different take on life than my great-great-great-great-great grandchildren. Still, when I read Shakespeare these days, I can't believe how perceptive the old guy was about life's twists and turns. Maybe it's really about language: you need to talk to a 30-year old differently than to a 60-year old? What does age have to do with it?

And what about gender? Do you need to know whether you are reading for a man or a woman? Isn't the Yi gender-neutral? What's good for the gander is good for the goose?

While we're at it, what about race? Socio-economic status? Nationality? Culture?

I can understand how these things might impact a diviner's understanding of the querent's question, but it's the Yi giving the answer, is it not? Isn't the answer the same for everybody?

Lindsay

 

[lightofreason]

... Maybe it's really about language: you need to talk to a 30-year old differently than to a 60-year old? What does age have to do with it?

And what about gender? Do you need to know whether you are reading for a man or a woman? Isn't the Yi gender-neutral? What's good for the gander is good for the goose?

While we're at it, what about race? Socio-economic status? Nationality? Culture?

I can understand how these things might impact a diviner's understanding of the querent's question, but it's the Yi giving the answer, is it not? Isn't the answer the same for everybody?

Lindsay

There are three forms of interpretation - symmetric, asymmetric, anti-symmetric - these translate to issues of sequence, magnitude, and hierarchy.

The more sequence prone so the more susceptable to experiences of 'random' emotional states - IOW those with no history. The more magnitude prone the more susceptable to disorganised direction in that 'sequence' or history is interpreted by sorting emotional magnitudes rather than date/time stamps.

Collectives will have biases, some will be hierarchic, some rigid sequence, some more 'emotional'.

The older one is the easier to make associations not made when one is young - this reflects the accumulation of connections where 'random' exclusive-or thinking can start to link the dots! (and so the 'traditional' focus on no being able to deal with the IC philosophically etc until you are over 50 - and have had the full range of experiences listed ;-) - We can do better these days in we can identify the core behaviours without local colouring and so seek them out or more so seek out a context that will 'push' those buttons)

If we take one step back from our singular minds and into our collective minds we come across gender differences - the 'female' is more into relationships and as such cannot recognise the experience of the 'random' since there is always some connection. The 'male' on the other hand is more object oriented and so can sense the 'random', the sense of the 'discrete' - even if this positive feedback 'thing' comes out of negative feedback dynamics - the issue is in 'dot' precision.

etc etc etc

BUT behind all of the differences will be the sameness of the species I Ching, all of that blending, bonding, bounding, and binding ;-) - and each of us can develop a perspective upon reality rooted in ONE of these or in ALL of these or in SOME of these - e.g. females, relationships, bonding and binding - males, things, blending and bounding etc etc etc

Add in hierarchy and what was 'male' at one level is 'female' at the next/previous etc - reflecting the dynamics of positive (thats IT!) and negative (getting closer to) feedback.

Add-in the singular and male and female become more context-sensitive; consciousness is more flexible that what is in between our legs ;-)

Chris.

 

[bruce_g]

This is why I cannot buy what Martin and Bruce are saying. No professional goes into a work situation without a plan. Amateurs stumble through jobs, going willy-nilly from one thing to the next, but experts have maps in their heads based on experience.

"'Not doing' can also be regarded as spontaneous non-purposeful action, simply following an urge without any preconceived plan in mind and certainly without any agonising of the should I?/shouldn't I? variety. Such action maintains clarity from stillness to movement and does not become confused. Much confusion arises from the desire to act too soon, one fears opportunities are slipping away, chances being lost, and so the Yijing teaches how to recognise the nature of the moment, the closing and opening of possibilities. Far better is acting in wuwei, as then when you are acting still you are not particularly doing anything, it is simply that things are getting done. It is realising that constant conscious deliberation is not necessary. The antithesis of wuwei is trying to work out how to do it, worrying whether it might not succeed, racking one's brains, fretting about the task. Essentially, trying too hard. Better is to act unconsciously and naturally, without strain. There is a similar concept in Japanese Zen, 'mushotoku', which means 'no desire for gain, no goal', although I have even seen it translated as 'having a goal is a disease of the mind' (Taisen Deshimaru Roshi has written about mushotoku)." ~ Joel Biroco / Steve Marshall

 

[hilary]

Sorry - the birth date thing was a red herring. Like I said, it's purely because it's nice to have an excuse to send a card.

Though of course, sometimes having an idea of someone's age helps in knowing where they're coming from. Biological clocks and life cycles and all that. Similarly, knowing someone's cultural background, sexual orientation, etc, etc is all part of the relationship, and hence part of being able to make sense of the reading in the right context. Generally, 'tell me what I need to know to understand what's going on' covers it.

 

[lindsay]

I think 'wu wei' is one of the most misunderstood concepts in Chinese philosophy, and I'm afraid Birocco shows no great grasp of it. Athletes are a good example. They make the difficult look simple, they often say they are "in the zone", not thinking about what they are doing. But how did they get that good in the first place? Practice, mostly. Good technique. Discipline. Learning to do it right. Learning to do by doing, over and over - then learning to do without doing. I don't think anybody here is good enough at the Yi to do it without doing. Not yet. Even the best athletes admit there are good ways to perform, they can tell you what they are, but for them they are second nature. Of course, many use 'wu wei' as an excuse not to do all the hard work necessary before 'wu wei' can be actually attained. If you want to talk about Zen, I have spent enough time in a zendo to tell you it's crushingly ordinary, boring, practice, practice, practice. Maybe in a few years or so people start to get it. There are more mental obstacles than you can possibly imagine. All to do without doing. Meanwhile, there are few enough who can even do with doing, who can do things right by trying.

Lindsay

 

[bruce_g]

Lindsay,

You have developed impressive “athletic” knowledge and skill of the Yi, you’ve done your homework and practice. I don’t think you or anyone can deny that. How would you go about performing a reading for someone? You claim that you are not a good reader, though. How is that? Might it be that you try too hard, or that your emphasis on method creates a wuwei block?

Action with detachment is itself a method; one that is a fundamental principle of eastern sports psychology. Naturally, developed understanding and skill is imperative, and a prerequisite to effective performance. But to perform at peak, to overcome stress and performance pressure, there’s something else and athlete must learn: to let go of what they know and just do it.

 

[mudpie]

In my thoughts "wu wei" is not the prize won after arduous practice and hard work. Quite the opposite. when the mental faculty is wholly willing to let go and LET, wu wei is the naturally occuring movement, the ultimate "in sync"........Arduous practice is often required because, as it isnt hard to notice, the mental faculties are rarely willing to give up without a struggle to the death.

Beginners luck is often about unplanned wu wei. One totally without expectation, the "fool" so to speak, can often make the leap without effort into the right place at the right time type of thing.

Likewise The Yi often produces the most amzingly accurate readings for the first time beginner, because they are not struggling at all to understand or analyze.

I suppose there is truth to the concept that artists, writers, athletes and Yi readers, etc develop by practice, but ultimately what makes one "great" vs one who is just well-practiced and skillful is that leap of faith, the ability to LET GO and let something larger move through them. In regards to doing readings for other people, years of practice can make one more knowledgeable, but isnt it more about trusting the Yi? Most people who ask me for readings do not have great expectations, just a lot of curiousity. I trust the way the Yi works, I trust that it is going to accurately mirror and sync up with the questioner's inquiry the way it always does with my own. I am just the facilitator, the tour guide, the one who can interpret the language to the foreigner. Once they can relate this language to their own understanding of it, then it is up to them to make the connection.
most are too amazed to be disappointed. they want to learn more about divining.

the disappointment of a questioner could well mean that they simply do not want to intuit and sense on their own. they want a willowfox (no offense wf) who will tell them that next tuesday they will receive good news but not to act on it until the following june after which all will be easy. People will pay a lot of money to have the responsibility taken out of their hands

 

[martin]

Agree with Listener ..

A problem is that not-doing is sometimes presented as a technique and then people end up trying to DO not-doing.

Thoughts, feelings, impulses, sensations, where do they come from? And where does the sensation of 'me' come from and the idea that 'I' think or do or want or feel or sense this or that?
It all comes from nowhere. Or so it seems.

If we see that, does it make a difference?

 

[hilary]

I don't pretend to understand what wu wei means. But I do know that being able to do something complex fluently and spontaneously, without thinking/planning/strategising/ 'constant conscious deliberation', is a product of a whole lot of dedicated work. Great musicians only get the 'ability to let go and let something larger move through them' as a product of many hours a day practicing, every day, from childhood and throughout their working lives. I've heard it said that if they miss a day, they feel the deterioration.

 

[bruce_g]

Even in the first year of group musical instrument classes different aptitudes emerge from different students.

Through the first few years of jr. high and high school, I was paired with Dave, both assigned to first trumpet and cornet in concert band and orchestra. Dave was incredible, and he was first chair, playing all the solos. I’d stop by his house and he’d have Brahms or Vivaldi scores spread out on this living room floor, following each instrumental part note for note – at 13! His sight reading ability was amazing! After the first year, the music director started a dance band/big band jazz, and Dave and I were again assigned to play first trumpet. Then came a solo. Somehow, soloing on Stardust or String of Pearls wasn’t the same as on Hayden’s Trumpet Concerto, and so the instructor told me to pick up the solo parts. In the years which followed, Dave played solo in orchestra while I had the pleasure of soloing in our dance band. Dave was by far a “better” horn player, but I played with feeling. It all comes down to natural aptitude.

Professionals refer clients to their peers, matching task with talent and aptitude. Not all readers use the same method or form, and not all people that request a reading benefit from the same reader.

Whatever works.

PS: Dave went on to Juilliard, but quit after his second year and joined the Navy, where he spent his next 25 years on submarines. Go figure.

 

[bruce_g]

PSS: At 14 we started our own working dance band, playing weekly paid gigs at local dances. The guitar player (Lou) in that band sent me this picture not long ago, and a recording, done on an old Webcore reel-to-reel at my parent's house. Lou is also the one who turned me on to the Yi, many years later. We remain close friends.

just for grins and giggles..

View attachment 124

 

[hilary]

Smiling here, Bruce. You may not call it "practice" or consider it work, but you spend a whole lot of time playing - that's why you can express yourself freely in the moment. Believe it or not.

Different aptitudes and inclinations are a whole other thing. I did meet someone once who could sight-read well and improvise brilliantly - our college organ scholar. But for most of us it seems to be one or t'other.

(Maybe Dave found the submarines less demanding than Juilliard )

 

[hilary]

So where's the transfer to mp3?

 

[martin]

Nice thesis-antithesis in this thread.
I think we all agree that, in case of a complex skill, a lot of practice is needed. Many things need to become automatized before we can move to a higher level and 'let go'. That may take many years of practice and perhaps we can never stop practicing.

But for some the moment of letting go comes earlier and for others it comes later. That is were we differ.
It's all a matter of personality type, I think.
As Bruce said: "Not all readers use the same method or form, and not all people that request a reading benefit from the same reader."

 

[luz]

(Maybe Dave found the submarines less demanding than Juilliard )

Or maybe he heard that Julliard graduates often find themselves in the unemployment line

Nice story and nice pictures, thanks for sharing, Bruce . So, what happened to Lou, is he also an I Ching guru now?

 

[lindsay]

Bruce, you ask me why I am not a good reader, and I have thought about that question a great deal for a long time. I don't think it comes from trying too hard, although I admit I do have to try very hard whenever I read for other people. I don't think I'm naturally very emphathetic with others. When it comes to understanding the question, I often miss the point. One reason is I'm inclined to talk more than I listen. That's a bad habit for a diviner, I think, but a lot of it comes from being nervous.

Then, too, there is Male Answer Now Syndrome (MANS). Men have a thing about needing to answer every question, and being convinced they've got it right. You see MANS in this forum all the time. It's difficult for a man to back off, reserve judgment, consider many possibilities potentially valid, admit doubt or uncertainty, embrace diversity and differences of opinion. You rarely hear a man say, "I'm not sure" or "I don't know". Living with ambiguity is torture for many of us.

So - if you suffer from MANS - you will be convinced every question has a definite answer, you will be looking for THE answer, and trying to convince others it's THE answer. And if they don't agree or demure, well, you might just have to argue with them a little. For their own good, of course. If they go silent, then talking very loudly seems to help. Somehow you must make them admit that you're right, make them see it your way! Results vary.

Another problem I have is lack of imagination. It's hard for me to spin gold out of straw, and a great deal of the Yi is . . . well, somewhat intractable. The leap from ancient China to here-and-now in my own neighborhood is easy to miss. Not many people are interested in antiquarianism.

Then there is the whole problem of ADVICE. To read the commentaries, you would think the Yi is a veritable treasurehouse of practical wisdom and psychological insight. Not only does the Yi offer information and shifting viewpoints on the nature of any situation, it abounds with good sense and shrewd advice about HOW TO SOLVE YOUR PROBLEM. Unfortunately, all that is missing from my version of the Yi. I can barely deal with my own life, much less tell other people how to live theirs. My version of the Yi is OK with description, but pretty weak on prescription. And that's where things tend to fall apart, because people want to know WHAT TO DO about their problems. Usually I'm as clueless as they are.

Finally, there is the issue of "intuition", which the Yi diviner is not supposed to need -- "let the Yi do the work!" -- but in my experience intuition is crucial to hitting the target in a reading. My own intuition is vestigial. Trying to use it in a reading is like trying to wag my coccyx. Or something like that.

So if anybody has any ideas on any of these infirmities, let me know.

Lindsay

 

[bruce_g]

Smiling here, Bruce. You may not call it "practice" or consider it work, but you spend a whole lot of time playing - that's why you can express yourself freely in the moment. Believe it or not.

Different aptitudes and inclinations are a whole other thing. I did meet someone once who could sight-read well and improvise brilliantly - our college organ scholar. But for most of us it seems to be one or t'other.

(Maybe Dave found the submarines less demanding than Juilliard )

I believe it. But pleeease don't call it "practice". I hate discipline!

Oh, absolutely, there are those who can do both. Imo, they are the true masters.

And, yes, no doubt Dave did find the Navy less demanding than Juilliard! I just thought it was a shame; the kid was so talented! Eh, he seems happy though. Lives a tame Christian life. I don't think he plays anymore.

 

[martin]

MANS ?!
Google ...

Your search - "Male Answer Now" - did not match any documents.

Lindsay, are you sure you have a lack of imagination?

 

[martin]

Anyway, I would start with whatever talents you have and build on that, expand them if possible. Not with what you have not.
What are your talents as an I Ching reader? You must do something right!

 

[bruce_g]

Nice story and nice pictures, thanks for sharing, Bruce . So, what happened to Lou, is he also an I Ching guru now?

Thanks.

No, Lou put away the Ching after the break up of a (much) later band incarnation. He got what he wanted from it, and he still has one of the best minds of anyone I've known.

It’s amazing how karma works, though, ya know? Lou’s son got heavy into heroin, and all the trouble that comes with it. He’d been through the rehab programs and would go right back to it. Lou and his lovely wife were desperate. Somehow, I sensed Lou’s son was ready for a major 49, and so I invited him (cross country) to stay at my place for four weeks in July. He’s been clean since, has moved and started a new job. Neither Lou nor I would have ever imagined any of this back then. Life’s a trip.

 

[bruce_g]

Lindsay,

I think I know what you’re saying. I still equate it with trusting yourself and the Yi, and letting go of worrying over it, opening up. Not willy nilly or grabbing straws, but with introspection and compassion.

One other symptom of MANS, if that’s what it is, is fearing silence: those deafening gaps in time and space, that we feel compelled to fill with something. That induces panic! OMG! Silence! But it’s in that silence when cognition or intuition, whichever, comes through. And the funny thing is, it often comes through to the querent and reader simultaneously. How does that happen? Is it the reader, the querent, the Yi? I dunno. But it sure makes a great close.

 

[lightofreason]

The male/female focus - this gets back to issues of magnitudes (female, emotions, qualitative) vs sequences (make, quantitative, emotion is limited to 'correct/incorrect' or raw expressions etc)
Consciousness, our singular nature, can modulate things, make us more context-sensitive but in doing do we have to work through universals...

------------------------------------------
Study of Language Use in Children Suggests Sex Influences How Brain Processes Words

Washington, D.C.--Boys and girls tend to use different parts of their brains to process some basic aspects of grammar, according to the first study of its kind, suggesting that sex is an important factor in the acquisition and use of language.


Two neuroscientists from Georgetown University Medical Center discovered that boys and girls use different brain systems when they make mistakes like “Yesterday I holded the bunny”. Girls mainly use a system that is for memorizing words and associations between them, whereas boys rely primarily on a system that governs the rules of language.


“Sex has been virtually ignored in studies of the learning, representation, processing and neural bases of language. This study shows that differences between males and females may be an important factor in these cognitive processes,” said the lead author, Michael Ullman <http://explore.georgetown.edu/experts/index.cfm?Action=View&NetID=michael> , PhD, professor of neuroscience, psychology, neurology and linguistics.



He added that since the brain systems tested in this study are responsible for more than just language use, the study supports the notion that “men and women may tend to process various skills differently from one another.” One potential underlying reason, suggested by other research, is that the hormone estrogen, found primarily in females, affects brain processing, Ullman said.



The study, whose co-author is Joshua Hartshorne, was published earlier this year in the journal Developmental Science.



Researchers know that women tend to be better than men at verbal memory tasks, such as remembering word lists, and that this ability depends on declarative memory. Included within declarative memory is a “mental lexicon” in which word forms are memorized and remembered. The grammatical rules that allow us to combine words in sentences depend on “procedural” memory. Researchers have found that both boys and girls may be equally adept at this process, which depends on a different part of the brain than declarative memory.



In this study, Ullman and Hartshorne hypothesized that girls would be better than boys at remembering irregular past-tenses of verbs, like “held”, since these words are memorized in declarative memory. And if girls remember “held” better than boys, they should make fewer errors like “holded”, since these “over-regularization” errors are made when children can’t remember irregular past-tenses, and so resort to combing the verb with an –ed ending, just as they do for regular verbs like “walked”.



So they studied how a group of 10 boys and 15 girls, age 2 to 5, used regular and irregular past-tense forms in their normal speech. To their surprise, and contrary to their predictions, the researchers discovered that the girls over-regularized far more than boys.



They then investigated which verbs the girls made the mistakes on, and found an association between the number of similar sounding regular past-tense verbs, and the particular verb that was over-regularized. For example, girls tended to say “holded” or “blowed” because many other rhyming verbs use the regular past-tense form (such as folded, molded, and flowed, rowed, stowed, respectively).



The researchers say this kind analogy-based processing suggests the girls were relying on their declarative memory to create the past tense. “This memory is not just a rote list of words, but underlies common patterns between words, and can be used to generalize these patterns,” Ullman said. “In this case, the girls had memorized the regular past tenses of rhyming words, and were generalizing these patterns to new words, resulting in over-regularization errors” such as “holded” and “blowed”.



In contrast, for the boys there was no association between the number of similar sounding regular past-tense verbs, and the particular verbs that were over-regularized. So the boys did not make more over-regularizations on verbs like “holded” or “blowed” that have many rhyming regular past-tenses. This suggests, Ullman said, that the boys were not forming these words in declarative memory, but were probably using the rule-governed system to combine verbs with –ed endings.



Other types of evidence also suggest that adult women tend use declarative memory more than adult men do in their use of language, Ullman said. “Although the two sexes seem to be doing the same thing, and doing it equally well, they are using two different neurocognitive brain processes to do it,’ Ullman said. “This is a novel and exciting finding.”



About Georgetown University Medical Center Georgetown University Medical Center is an internationally recognized academic medical center with a three-part mission of research, teaching and patient care (through our partnership with MedStar Health). Our mission is carried out with a strong emphasis on public service and a dedication to the Catholic, Jesuit principle of cura personalis -- or "care of the whole person." The Medical Center includes the School of Medicine and the School of Nursing and Health Studies, both nationally ranked, the world-renowned Lombardi Comprehensive Cancer Center and the Biomedical Graduate Research Organization (BGRO).



Source: Georgetown Medical Center
http://explore.georgetown.edu/news/?ID=20915

 

[bruce_g]

So where's the transfer to mp3?

emailed a clip

 

[Sparhawk]

Then, too, there is Male Answer Now Syndrome (MANS). Men have a thing about needing to answer every question, and being convinced they've got it right. You see MANS in this forum all the time. It's difficult for a man to back off, reserve judgment, consider many possibilities potentially valid, admit doubt or uncertainty, embrace diversity and differences of opinion. You rarely hear a man say, "I'm not sure" or "I don't know". Living with ambiguity is torture for many of us.

So - if you suffer from MANS - you will be convinced every question has a definite answer, you will be looking for THE answer, and trying to convince others it's THE answer. And if they don't agree or demure, well, you might just have to argue with them a little. For their own good, of course. If they go silent, then talking very loudly seems to help. Somehow you must make them admit that you're right, make them see it your way! Results vary.

MANS?!? You are a gentlemen and way too kind with the fair sex here. There is as much FANKS (Female Answer Now "Kindly" Syndrome) here as the testosterone fueled kind... Besides, I'm never sure of what I'm saying and most of the time I don't know squat.

L

 

[bruce_g]

Anyway, Lindsay, it’s cool. What you know I haven’t time to learn. We each specialize in something. Sharing what you know enriches me and many others. No benefit in either of us being a five-skills-squirrel.

 

[Sparhawk]

PSS: At 14 we started our own working dance band, playing weekly paid gigs at local dances. The guitar player (Lou) in that band sent me this picture not long ago, and a recording, done on an old Webcore reel-to-reel at my parent's house. Lou is also the one who turned me on to the Yi, many years later. We remain close friends.

just for grins and giggles..

Amazing to see such a young picture of you, Bruce. One always have the impression that people we meet online are "born" the moment we cross paths. Much like the legend of Laozi's having been gestated for 80 years and born already a master...


L

 

[lightofreason]

The male/female focus - this gets back to issues of magnitudes (female, emotions, qualitative) vs sequences (make, quantitative, emotion is limited to 'correct/incorrect' or raw expressions etc)
Consciousness, our singular nature, can modulate things, make us more context-sensitive but in doing do we have to work through universals...

just to focus on the entanglement of all of the hippocampus focus on sequencing is manifest in the way we as humans make maps - but the sexual bias is found in 'lower' mammals more so than in us where CONTEXT allows us to choose beyond our 'instinct'.

Thus we have 'way point' mapping vs 'vectoring' mapping. In lower life forms the female is more way point, the male more vector. The vector uses universals (stars, planets, GPS), the waypoint local context (red house to white fence to hill to lake to blue wall.... note the focus on sensory harmonics)

With universals there is a focus on direction by formal assertions of n/s/e/w etc and so 'correct' order - in local context it is more sensory intensities that matter (the RED house etc)

London taxi cab drivers, mostly male, use waypointing more than vectoring - it reflects the use of magnitudes to develop an associative memory (it takes them 2 years to learn all of the streets of London - part of the formal training - in London the job is not a 'part time', something to do whilst I think about my PhD etc job!)

This focus shows us the CHOICE of behavior, the context sensitivity demanding a bias - although with GPS in cars these days their training may change!

Chris.

 

[bruce_g]

Amazing to see such a young picture of you, Bruce. One always have the impression that people we meet online are "born" the moment we cross paths. Much like the legend of Laozi's having been gestated for 80 years and born already a master...


L

would not want to be his poor mom! (nor mine, now that I think of it )

 

[hilary]

Anyone who can describe MANS (which I agree presents very similar symptoms to FANKS - though doesn't the K stand for Knowingly?) and talk about trying to wag his coccyx should not be protesting a lack of imagination.

I think you can survive as a diviner without any very constant or reliable intuition if you're happy to do that 'trust' thing and leave spaces. And not imagine that it's always necessarily your job to provide The Answer.

Isn't descriptive vv prescriptive a bit of a red herring*? If the answer's describing a certain way of acting and its results, as it often is, then the difference between a descriptive reading (here's what you'll get if you do this) and a prescriptive one (here's what to do/ what not to do, according to results) is a trivial shift in perspective.


*Maybe the tail?

 

[Sparhawk]

(which I agree presents very similar symptoms to FANKS - though doesn't the K stand for Knowingly?)

I dunno, but if experience is any indication of reality, "kindness" has a much longer mileage than "knowledge"...

L