humans or dancers?

[sooo]

 

[blue_angel]

Bruce I love that picture! What an awesome way to start the morning!

 

[sooo]

'Ye have heard that ye all are gods'. Who said that? Can't remember. But that is what we are talking about here. The Knowing.

Oh, and it is absolutely NOT about concepts. It is 'concepts' that create the maya. This is beyond concepts, beyond language.

The serpent within the Tree of Knowledge in Eden. It was this knowledge, or belief in being able to attain it, that got them booted from Paradise.

Everything the human mind conceives is a construct. Like the serpent, it's persuasive.

I've chased enlightenment since '63, and have discovered that the faster I run after it, the more illusive it became, as even a nice samanti is. Samanti means feudal. The faster I reel in the big fish, the lighter and more subtle it becomes; until it reaches the boat, and only a bare line is blowing in the wind.

I sat and waited for it, and many things came and went. Enlightenment was not among them, I was fooled too many times to mention.

I meditated harder, which is like trying harder to enjoy the moment; it's counter productive.

Anything which promises absolute, permanent and exclusive happiness, bliss, enlightenment, run don't walk away from it.

Everything the mind can imagine is a construct of that mind. Every construct of mind dims the light from enlightenment. The idea of enlightenment is indeed just an idea.

Isn't it enough to enjoy this moment? Is happiness not the desired thing? There are countless samantis, sensations of absolute freedom and oneness. This is not at all difficult, and it would be nice to practice contentment. Contentment is not a construct, an ideal to chase. Thankfulness is abandoning desire and bathing in overflowing gratitude in everything contained in this moment, including all of life's difficulties. And let's not forget laughter, especially at our self and our self image, including those things we imagine we need before we can be "enlightened", before we can laugh at our persona, our mask, as happens on that mount.

I think h30, catching that bright bird is our chance, and one must be quick because the moment is fleeting and is already gone. But this too is a construct.

What then is left to transcend?

 

[butterfly spider]

Have been wading through bradfords Tarot ideas - difficult on my phone. So I rummaged on the site and came across this thread. Am having issues with hex 63 and the big picture so am now looking at the smaller immediate picture - it is interesting that this thread mentions this hex.
On the issue of dancers or humans - in my humble opinion both are energies but the human dancer gives the dance form - each human can bring their own dance to the energy. The dance is going on wether we are dancing it - or not. Being able to dance the energy is a gift - but it is not necessarily human. Dance dance wherever you may be ... It feels very human to be able to dance
I love the picture
Difficult getting a comprehensive reply as I can only see small parts of the picture
In my small phone but its my thoughts at least
X

 

[Trojina]

have you seen Hilary's recent blog on 63 ? http://onlineclarity.co.uk/answers/2015/01/06/hexagram-63-already-across-a-beginning/

 

[butterfly spider]

Hilary's thread on hex 63 is interesting as the whole feeling of this hexagram is circular - revolving and circling to something else. It is akin to spinning in a circle and not knowing where you will end up. I also think hex 63 reminds me of learning to walk - of watching a toddler toddle off into the distance. There is movement (which can be quite fast) and there is often a determination to get somewhere. The destination is where? Is there one in the toddlers mind - I am not so sure. If we can dance the moment we have movement we can move anywhere - we have to trust in the dance. The destination is of little relevance.
All of this of course is very simple on paper but it is the forward movement of energies and dancing our present minute that will ultimately allow us to change and develop.
Am off to a dance class now ....

 

[NemeanMagik]

Yes, I think you could feel happy practicing these attitudes. I do not see Enlightenment as an idea, but I know exactly why you would feel it is not the way you want to go.

It is not that I am responding to anyone's 'promise' of Enlightenment; it is simply that I know myself from having had just a small taste that it's the most significant 'experience' (for want of a different word) I have ever 'encountered'. (for want of a different word!) For me it means, Light, Love, Liberation on a completely different level.

But again, just to repeat, I can totally see what you mean as well.

 

[Tohpol]

I think many of our paths of access to "enlightenment" or "soul growth" or any other phrase alluding to a form of spiritual evolution are indeed constructs but this doesn't necessarily invalidate certain formulae conducive to altered states of consciousness. In the same way we that we use subjectivity to arrive at a more objective evaluation of ourselves, even if that is inherently flawed, we can use the tools which are available to us at this level of existence. These choices become more refined as we recognise whether they truly increase Being or decrease it. And I think personally, that evaluation can only happen pre-birth and/or between lives. By that I mean we do the work in this earthly plane and only when we are liberated from this bio-chemical spacesuit can we truly evaluate how we did and with some assistance on hand. I do see this material existence like a vast kindergarten/primary school and University for emerging souls choosing either the downflow or upflow of life, entropy or creativity. Each is a valid path though choosing what is illusion and what is real is one of the keynotes of our human sojourn in my view. This is also a construct but at least one from which I can discern as "real" from my own experience. And this allows me a lodestar from which I can navigate and hopefully move forward otherwise we either lost in nihilism, comfort-zones. Yet, the concept of "moving forward" may require a very different approach from either the Eastern or Western mind.

I suppose finding what type of methodology works for us is all part of where we happen to find ourselves as a product of our past experiences. Is it a consensual belief based on fear and/or authority or experiential knowledge drawn from clear examples of tangible "works"? Does it increase are "happiness" or does it merely self-calm us to realities? Does it peel away all our accumulated hurt and "programs or does it subtly reinforce them? I think ultimately we continue to learn from our experiences whatever the outcome, whether we die as a result or become "liberated" to new thresholds of learning. I see it as striving to find the median, the moderate: always seeking, but not becoming obsessive, focusing on the individual self but not forgetting the collective, self-development but not forgetting the wider world, being aware of our environment, the nuts and bolts of reality, being grounded in Nature yet not forgetting the stars; knowing we are utterly insignificant under the lens of the Universe and at the same time still part of its fabric.

 

[blue_angel]

I thought you meant 1963 Bruce, was it hexagram 63?

 

[Trojina]

I do not see Enlightenment as an idea

,


Look enlightenment itself may not be an idea but as soon as you start talking about it it becomes an idea. An apple is not an idea, but if I talk to you about an apple then the apple is not an apple it is an idea of an apple that we share. You keep seeming to miss this point.

I thought you meant 1963 Bruce, was it hexagram 63?

LOL yes I took it as 1963 Bruce spoke of.....I wondered why ethel just started talking about hexagram 63 out of the blue and figured I'd missed something....but I think she just misread

It is not that I am responding to anyone's 'promise' of Enlightenment; it is simply that I know myself from having had just a small taste that it's the most significant 'experience' (for want of a different word) I have ever 'encountered'. (for want of a different word!) For me it means, Light, Love, Liberation on a completely different level.

So have I had such an experience, so have many people, it isn't unusual. Once it is given a name, and seen as a kind of desirable state and so on and it is spoken of, it necessarily becomes a concept. But thinking about it will not take you back there again because it is beyond the level of thought. My earlier point was don't get too hung up on it as the most meaningful experience of your life.

 

[NemeanMagik]

Trojina, you are perfectly correct; as usual.

 

[Trojina]

Yeah some call me Gurujina


But I should thank you for starting the thread as it led me to peruse this whole 'search for enlightenment' thing I was very much into when I was younger, in part due to meditation experiences I had. For me, looking back, in some ways I think I wasted time because if you think the only thing that matters is an ideal state you have not attained you can neglect all the joys of life.

Anyway I am fond of this guy so I was watching his stuff...He may be a charlatan, I don't know. I must post his laughing video again. So I watching his videos and they were all about how his disciples didn't exist and so on....like this one

[video=youtube;v9zWHXAx98A]https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84838260&v=v9zWHXAx98A&x-yt-ts=1422327029#t=12[/video]


....and I thought how much use was this really to that woman for example. I mean I watched, intrigued....yeah...I am actually nothing. But that thought takes me nowhere...Did it take her anywhere ? I don't know. I'm not so sure that all he 'throws' away doesn't matter, even in the deeper sense, it matters how one acts, it matters what one does. For those living outside of ashrams and so on how much good does it do them, or anyone, to aspire to not exist.


I mean I 'get it'......don't underestimate my gurudom..uch:..this is not some lofty topic I don't understand, but if I were chatting to my 18 year old self I'd say 'just enjoy the world and don't try not to be in it.....because you are in it babyguru....'. Too often I see this kind of thing make people feel disconnected, half hearted about life, always trying to remain in some ideal detached state.

I question it for us as westerners...I question what the mojiji above does for others. Yes they spin off to bliss and become deindividuated...er but actually the flip side of that is anxiety attacks and complete discombobulation. A person needs to be grounded as a person in the world. If they spend all day telling themselves they don't exist, unless they aren't thoroughly grounded, sooner or later they will be susceptible to anxiety, depression...feelings of pointlessness.

Knowing what I do of you I personally would not recommend you focus on not existing. I don't think that would be healthy for you. However if ideas of us all being one help you then that seems good.....But there is a fine line between seeking cosmic enlightenment and becoming so disconnected one is completely barking mad. Trust me, I know something of it.


Also I know that him telling them they don't exist will not make any difference. What he says won't enlighten them. Still I guess they are doing meditation practise too but even then......

There is one of these where he says one is always already enlightened. It is not a future state. It is always there it's just ideas get in the way. None of these ideas bring enlightenment.

 

[Trojina]

Here's another of his I posted before some years ago....only now I have a different perspective on it

[video=youtube;DfvgvDkdG2M]https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84838260&v=DfvgvDkdG2M&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-ts=1422327029#t=8[/video]


I enjoy it, I find it funny, I find it funny that Dennis doesn't exist...but I now wonder what the flip side of that laughter experience might be for some people. Bliss states can flip to anxiety states quite easily. If people attempt to get rid of their sense of themselves when they are not ready they can get anxious and unwell because actually they need to find stability in finding a good solid sense of self not in abandoning it.

This clarifies for me how my thinking has changed. I no longer feel eastern meditation practises are suitable for me..I no longer feel the whole eastern spirituality thing is suitable for me at all. Oh apart from Yi that is....

 

[sooo]

I do not see Enlightenment as an idea, but I know exactly why you would feel it is not the way you want to go.

Really? You know exactly why I feel it is not the way to go. I don't think you know me, or my past, or even why I said what I did. I think you are as convinced of your idea of enlightenment as a hard core Christian is convinced of going to heaven to meet Jesus, as convinced as Bin Laden of being met by 70 virgins in Paradise, and as convinced as those who willingly drank to the Kool-Aid in Uganda. If you think your notion is the way, bless you and good luck on your journey.

Do you think you are the only one among us who has been struck as though by lightening by a sudden vision of unconditional love, that whites out your karmic existence? Are you the only one here who has had this glimpse into eternity and God, or whatever name one gives it? Let me assure, you're not. But that is considered a Samadhi, even as Baba Ram Dass' guru, Neem Karoli Baba, serenely said after ingesting a handful of acid, gleefully administered Dass to blow his new master's mind - "nice Samadhi." Dass' temporal idea of enlightenment burst! Have you ever ingested a handful of acid, NK? There's a lot you don't know, and let me be the first to enlighten you: you have not the slightest idea of me nor my direction, nor the reason I go this way. You may have discovered a pearl in your oyster shell, and I think that is a fine thing. The problem with those who do is that, like wide-eyed born again believers believe, that is the only truth and the only way.

Yes, I meant since 1963, or so. But it actually began long before that. I was utterly mystified by divine presence since before 10, and just KNEW there was something greater than anyone around me could possibly understand. I think Trojina speaks of similar experiences when a child. I think some children are closer to "God" than any adult who is so sure they know the way through enlightenment, or salvation, as some prefer to call it. We lose that as we become responsible adults, however. Finding our way back to innocence is as good as it gets. At least that is my construct. Wilhelm seemed to agree: "While the preceding line represents a man who contemplates himself, here in the highest place everything that is personal, related to the ego, is excluded. The picture is that of a sage who stands outside the affairs of the world. Liberated from his ego, he contemplates the laws of life and so realizes that knowing how to become free of blame is the highest good." Wilhelm 20.6

 

[sooo]

Love this guy. I also posted these vids but in the form of links. If one listens to what he says between the laughter, the same message of no self will be heard, though I don't recall the mention of enlightenment anywhere. I may be mistaken though.

I believe the cultural connection is critical, and agree with the dangers involved with adopting beliefs and practices that have no roots in ones own culture. The difficulty with the US is that our only real ancestral roots are with indigenous Indian cultures, and we are as removed from them as from Hinduism or even Christianity, though we've made our own superficial religion from our attempts to adapt to a foreign God and his laws.

 

[moss elk]

[video]http://youtube.com/watch?v=qCBNhOxW2-c[/video]

There seems to be a song called "Are we human or are we dancer?"

Somebody else pondered it.

 

[Trojina]

Er yes I think she called the thread after the song...It was quite a big hit here in UK.

Bruce here is where he speaks of enlightenment

[video=youtube;PePJGMiR1E0]https://www.youtube.com/watch?x-yt-cl=84838260&feature=player_detailpage&v=PePJGMiR1E0&x-yt-ts=1422327029#t=5[/video]

he says 'liberation' means nothing at all...nothing at all....

 

[Trojina]

The difficulty with the US is that our only real ancestral roots are with indigenous Indian cultures, and we are as removed from them as from Hinduism or even Christianity, though we've made our own superficial religion from our attempts to adapt to a foreign God and his laws

Yes I've dumped Eastern mysticism for celtic/druidic/norse/pagan/christianity.....actually there are strong links between the ways of the north American Indians and the celts apparently. The one thing I've never had any affinity with is Buddhism...yet that seems popular here since it isn't strictly a religion.

 

[butterfly spider]

Hello I did not misread The 63 in Bruce's posting - taking it to be 1963 although his thread no was 63. I was actually referring to Svenrus post no 7 talking about hex 63 and 64 within this thread. I thought the notion of before crossing and after crossing was usefulThank you for taking me to Hilary's continuation ....
I just think that the concept of enlightenment is a human dilemma. If we spend our time worrying about what will happen when we are across then perhaps we miss out on the crossing itself - or perhaps we are already across and need to discover how we got there. Either way perhaps we should all spend more time dancing ....and not think so much with our heads
Xx

 

[blue_angel]

 

[butterfly spider]

Thank you - this is why we should all be dancers ....xx

 

[butterfly spider]

Sorry me again - my dancing friends sent me a YouTube video just now that they played at our moving dance meditation. - Jimjames State of the Art AEIOU. Somehow it connected with crossing being across and enlightenment. In any case I liked it. Rather like the video on enlightenment not full of wisdom or anything too cerebral just what it is

 

[sooo]

Yes I've dumped Eastern mysticism for celtic/druidic/norse/pagan/christianity.....actually there are strong links between the ways of the north American Indians and the celts apparently. The one thing I've never had any affinity with is Buddhism...yet that seems popular here since it isn't strictly a religion.

Here it is believed, even by many anthropologists and archaeologists, that traveling early Tibetans became the earliest known Anasazi tribes, which split up into Navajo, Hopi and even Pueblo tribes. The word Anaasází is Navajo for "Ancient Ones", and dates to the 12th century BC. So the roots do spread far, wide and deep, but are remote from our modern culture.

During the mid 60's, it felt so natural to adopt the fabric of these early cultures, leaving behind the modern world, prone toward wars and cold wars. I bought my wife a beautiful doeskin fringed dress and Indian jewelry, while I too wore the red bandana of the Comanche and flowered shirts of the Navajo. It felt so natural, so right. But alas, that too was temporal, as it was a way borrowed and romantic, but not deep enough in our blood and genes to last, or to be really real. No regrets though, as they were the most romantic time of our lives together, and much was lost to the yuppie lifestyle that naturally followed.

I relate to the Buddhist philosophy, at least the general ideas. I relate to the Taoist philosophy too, and to the "red letter" words attributed to Christ. For the most part, I see much more in common than I do as unique. The Elementary ideas are simply expressed in terms of Folk Ideas, or local stories or mythology. They, to me, are beautiful, but I never lose sight that these are all ideas, concepts, constructs, and when we must, beliefs. It's the same with life after death ideas. There are so many, and more than one may be true, if consciousness continues when the body, brain and heart turn to dust or ashes. But at best all we can do is imagine, construct beliefs, because no one living can know for certain about death, nor even if there is such a thing.

I love what the laughing buddha said, to keep your mind in your heart. Those we may be certain to possess in great measure.

 

[butterfly spider]

The only neutral place (physically as well as metaphorically) is in our heart - if everything returns to the heart we can recharge and face the world with renewed energy. This energy is pure and is our own - it is not purchased copied or inferior. If all our concepts we create return to this neutral place we would not need religion or seek enlightenment from others. Our own energy will radiate from a place of neutrality. The Yin and Yan energies can be balanced. Judgements ideas and opinions are simply holding rails - to enable us to cope. If we polish the roughness in our hearts then surely we no longer need support Are are human or are we dancers - perhaps in the end it doesn't matter

 

[Trojina]

Neutral ? Who wants to be neutral ?

Judgements ideas and opinions are simply holding rails - to enable us to cope

.

I don't buy that....If you watch a dog being kicked to death are you meant to stand there saying 'I have no opinion'.

Good grief even dogs have opinions....see Open Space where the dog makes a judgement that the man is drowning and does something about it.http://www.onlineclarity.co.uk/friends/showthread.php?18850-Clarity-pets-corner&p=201891#post201891 It is absurd for a human to aim to be without judgement. If they have no judgement they might as well be a mushroom omelette.

If we were all mushroom omelettes living in perfect neutral detachment this forum would be as dead as a dodo.

A question I have re with all these gurus going on about being nothing (fond as I am of mojijij)...with halls full of disciples. Do any of them, as a result of sitting at his feet, actually ever come to any kind of enlightenment or nothingness ? I guess I'll never know.

 

[sooo]

 

[sooo]

Neither head nor heart alone makes good judgements or omelets.

Oh, about enlightened gurus, I kind of lost heart when observing Swami Sachidananda repeatedly looking at his Rolex before being whisked away in his stretch limo. Maybe that's poor judgement on my part, but he just seemed.... I dunno, like a dashboard plastic Jesus.

 

[iams girl]

I shut off my computer thinking this thread was too complex to add to, then couldn’t stop thinking about it…

I think at least some of this conversation relates to dealing with “existential isolation.” A first step being about facing what our relationship is with “that which is not ourself.” From there, coming to terms with the magnitude of its inclusivity and the "oneness” that grows from the relationship.

I think it matters because how we choose to view “that which is not ourself” affects how we treat ourselves and others. Imo, the greater our sense of "other" as being a benevolent influence, or at the very least a moral order, the greater becomes our sense of belonging. It also adds more meaning to the work of "loving our neighbor as ourself” and dealing with the abhorrent in the light of an ultimate system of justice.

I'd say we are “humans dancing.”

 

[butterfly spider]

Being neutral is not the same as having no opinion.
I can have an opinion about a so-called guru with a Rolex or make judgements about paths to enlightenment. I can (and do) judge people - based on my experiences and knowledge. Dogs do when they meet other dogs based on body language. I do not think eggs can do this. If I bound off along an enlightened path that is a dead end - and return to my own self or heart - and balance - then I am in a neutral place - it is a place of strength. Good decisions and responses happen when we are balanced . The only physical place in our earthly body where the energy is neutral is within the heart. Perhaps a dog responds the way it does because of its neutrality. Maybe wars and atrocities are caused by the inability to be neutral - opinions judgements and ideas take us off down slippery slopes and dead ends.
X

 

[Trojina]

I think Homer would be relieved......


[video=youtube;A71bh8keqbI]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A71bh8keqbI&x-yt-ts=1422327029&feature=player_detailpage&x-yt-cl=84838260#t=3[/video]


okay I'll stop posting videos now.....I have gone a bit over board in the thread.. He's very engaging though...also soothing. I nodded off a few times yesterday whilst watching

Iams girl I agree with your last post, it's what I meant when I said I was pleased if such thoughts helped NM this way, that is she would feel less isolated. So on that level it matters. But knowing that does not bring enlightenment....or even radically different behaviour when it boils down to it ? Look at all the religious wars and so on... If ideas about the unity of humanity and all else were enough to make peace we would have found peace long ago. 'Trying' through thinking and talking isn't enough, it has to come from a state of being...and we can't reach that state of being via ideas. Not as far as I know.

I do not think eggs can do this

.

You haven't seen my omelettes

If I bound off along an enlightened path that is a dead end - and return to my own self or heart - and balance - then I am in a neutral place - it is a place of strength. Good decisions and responses happen when we are balanced . The only physical place in our earthly body where the energy is neutral is within the heart. Perhaps a dog responds the way it does because of its neutrality. Maybe wars and atrocities are caused by the inability to be neutral - opinions judgements and ideas take us off down slippery slopes and dead ends.

'Neutral' isn't a word that I find inspiring.. However likely you mean something else by it to do with your own path so no need to explain.. . Talking of good judgements, that is precisely what we consult the I Ching for and I find one can consult in any frame of mind, there is no need for a state of neutrality. Sometimes the more emotive one is the clearer the answer is heard and understood.

BTW re the underlined, you have said twice that physical energy in the heart is the only place in the body where the energy is neutral. Why would physical energy in the heart be more neutral than physical energy in the lung ?