humans or dancers?

[blue_angel]

So are you one with the crack head mother that abandoned her baby? Or is this your way of coping with your current reality?

I can not say that I have not myself thought at one time of these same things, so in a sense I do have compassion for your "reality". What a wonderful world... We are all one, all connected, one love, etc, etc, etc

In a sense yes and also in a sense no

 

[Trojina]

Here is the place where they discuss how nothing exists and so on http://coronzon.com/deadposters/ you'd get a good run for your money there.


You said earlier how existence wasn't 'valid' in some context or another.....but you are trying to make vast awareness most of us cannot access frequently anyway fit small intellectual constructs like 'validity' and so on ......in the end as Moss elk said what difference does actually make ?

For the purposes of your current life you are an individual and not one with everyone else. That is your/our reality most of the time. You have no choice but to live the reality you are in. Intellectual exercises about whether we exist as people or whatever...well it's just interesting to people sometimes but actually it doesn't make any difference to anything at all.

Don't think I need reminding of suffering Moss.

What, of your own or other people's ?


I think maybe what Moss Elk meant was it can seem kind of decadent to spend a lot of time wondering if one exists when there are many, people and animals suffering right at this minute who really don't need any proof they exist . So rather than spend energy awake all night thinking about whether you are a person you could tire yourself out doing some work for others.....even if it's dog. Giving an uncared for dog a home is more important IMO than playing intellectual games about existence and all that. In fact even bathing a dog is more important than that IMO Unconditional love is only worth anything on this earth when it is expressed through action

Not that I'm saying there's anything wrong with discussing these existential topics...not at all....it's only human. But in the end it doesn't make any difference to your life.

I couldn't put it better than this

I could set up a demonstration for you where you are tied up and hit with a series of progressively heavier hammers. Not too long into the process, you wouldn't have any doubt about the place of morality in relation to life. All those complicated thoughts about the nature of reality, the mish mash of elements of cosmogenies that you speak of as if they were facts would quickly be out the window.
Living beings that can suffer should be cared for. It is very simple.

And I agree with this since this is not about exploring divination

I think this belongs in open space.

Although I don't suppose it matters much. I mean it might in a roundabout way take in divination. But you would have a whale of a time at the Dead Posters society because they have loads of threads about not existing and how everything is an illusion. I think there is so much work to do in the world we cannot afford to spend to much time convincing ourselves it is all an illusion. OTOH I suppose it is an academic exercise of value in it's own right, philosophy .....But if unconditional love is all that matters then loving is all that matters and one cannot show love without working for the benefit of others in some way can one ? Whether that is through writing a book or feeding a dog or doing your recycling.....that is where our individual meaning is.

 

[Tohpol]

If only the Self (not 'self) exists, then there is nothing unique. As everything is Oneness. Therefore there is no diversity, no separate beings.

Perhaps this is the purpose of matter, to understand that the concept of "as above, so below" must translate into polarities so that we can learn to choose. In choosing left/right, shadow/light, yin/yang, we begin to understand what causes suffering. The "friction" we experience gradually encourages us to learn, to choose what IS as opposed to what we assume or project. A moral flavour to certain outcomes is just an initial construct to building conscience within, true empathy and compassion as opposed to a false self that is built as a coping mechanism and which displaces the energy for soul growth.

Through suffering we can learn how not to suffer. Without the One in manyness, the diversity of suffering and joy, the Universe cannot know itself - through us. In that sense, Unity is not a reality at this level, it is only a potential. It is the Mixtus Orbis of the material world where we exercise our choices to learn or to embrace ignorance - Being or Non-Being. Yet, there is always the opportunity that we can build something within ourselves that connects to "higher densities/dimensions" where Oneness IS a reality and thereby transform our immediate environment. I think this is where the challenge lies: in anchoring that potential in this world so that it becomes more and more commonplace.

Perhaps the "impersonal" nature of energy depends on which focus you have and how ones observation interacts with energy in our awareness. The more we know the Self the more the self is seen as a fractal part of it, spiraling its way back home.

Perhaps ....

 

[NemeanMagik]

As I see it Blue_Angel, the relative is the diversity, the absolute is the One, and the one runs through every relative existent 'person' or thing. it is really the Buddhist idea of the Buddha in each one of us; or the Quaker idea of 'that of God in everyone'. There is something that makes us the 'same' and puts us in union with each other, and on the other hand there are aspects that make us different...difference of 'persons', animals, things, etc etc..... There is nothing new about this way of understanding life. But everything is embraced within the Whole and that same 'whole' permeates everything too...

 

[NemeanMagik]

To me it makes the world of difference Trojan. It is certainly not simply an 'intellectual exercise' - not at all. These are questions which have immense importance and really do affect my life - and quite a few other people's too from what I understand. These are ultimate questions about life and death and of great significance.

Also, if you read the thread back, you will see how the subject relates to the I ching and so by virtue of that, to divination and the nature of change and the changeless. maybe the subject area has expanded as we've gone along. yes. But then everything is.............connected.

 

[Trojina]

To me it makes the world of difference Trojan. It is certainly not simply an 'intellectual exercise' - not at all. These are questions which have immense importance and really do affect my life - and quite a few other people's too from what I understand. These are ultimate questions about life and death and of great significance.

Well I just take it that yes we are all expressions of the one.....But really how much difference does it make to how I live each day or you live each day ?


Can you tell me in what ways it makes a difference to you ? How do these immense questions affect your actual life ? Are you going to live differently because of these immensely important ideas ?

What will you do differently ? I mean according to which way you think what will you do differently ?

 

[NemeanMagik]

Yes. It is about looking, seeing, letting be...I have sought to explain in previous posts in this thread. I don't know how else to describe how this works. The ideas and basic approach as described is the best way I can explain what I understand to be true 'liberation'. This is embryonic in a sense. I am not here to convince or prove anything really, just wanting to share what I am discovering, exploring, whatever. If you or others don't agree, or choose to see things differently, no problem at all. it's not about arguing, it's about seeking 'what is' for me. In my understanding that inevitably results in changes of perception, quality of life. The happening that can occur from this understanding result in true liberation....I say 'happening' because in the ordinary sense it seems one cant manufacture this.

 

[pocossin]

I think the issue is consciousness of self. 'Energies' are impersonal. This has been a big question for me. Without continuity of identity in this sense, karma is a total illusion as there is no 'person' to link the thread.

If only the Self (not 'self) exists, then there is nothing unique. As everything is Oneness. Therefore there is no diversity, no separate beings.

We are an interplay of forces like weather patterns, only we last a little longer and then disperse (hexagram 59). By 'karma' I think you mean the oughtness of things. A snowflake ought to have a certain pattern, though each is unique. The snowflake cannot interfere with its optimal organization, but we humans can and continually do. To divine is to attempt to find this ought.

 

[NemeanMagik]

The bit that generally stumps most of us I think is this understanding that the 'self' is really illusory and so to talk of it making choices, building up etc, is a misnomer.....Now, that is pretty impossible to get one's head round I know, but ultimately I suspect ---------- it is the case. Maya andallthat. Very hard.

 

[NemeanMagik]

But do we really 'interfere'? Do we really choose? If we are really 'maya', what does this mean about intention, purpose, choice, goals?

 

[pocossin]

My opinion is that self is a superstition because we are the product of larger forces of which we are mostly unaware.

 

[NemeanMagik]

I tend to agree with you pocossin.

 

[NemeanMagik]

And so, as if within a cycle,.... we return to CONSULTING THE ORACLE via questions about purpose, choice, decisions, goals.

(Trojina will be pleased)

 

[pocossin]

But do we really 'interfere'? Do we really choose?

Yes, we really choose but with limited awareness. This thread is quite loaded for me. It began with an allusion to Yeats' poem on which I wrote a paper in college. The professor attempted to get even with me for correcting him in class by occasionally accusing me of plagiarism, as he did on this paper. It was his only weapon, but he never dared bring me up on charges. It seems to be part of my pattern to have difficulty with authority figures, though I didn't recognize it at the time.

 

[Trojina]

Yes. It is about looking, seeing, letting be...I have sought to explain in previous posts in this thread. I don't know how else to describe how this works. The ideas and basic approach as described is the best way I can explain what I understand to be true 'liberation'. This is embryonic in a sense. I am not here to convince or prove anything really, just wanting to share what I am discovering, exploring, whatever. If you or others don't agree, or choose to see things differently, no problem at all. it's not about arguing, it's about seeking 'what is' for me. In my understanding that inevitably results in changes of perception, quality of life. The happening that can occur from this understanding result in true liberation....I say 'happening' because in the ordinary sense it seems one cant manufacture this.

Hmmm, no, intellectual understanding will not result in liberation. Liberation does not arise because you think/understand a/b/c. Will this make any difference to your issue with your therapist for example ?

See what I'm saying ? You can have all the intellectual understanding of this kind of stuff and it will not make a haporth of difference because liberation has absolutely sod all to do with understanding concepts of self....and so on.

I mean people can talk about this stuff to the most sophisticated levels and it will not take them to liberation. Mind you I do not speak from a position of liberation ....although some say liberation is bull because we are always already liberated and so it goes....hence my link to the dead posters society where I imagine you can have a really in depth discussion about this and almost end up believing you do not exist. Still you can have a pretty good chat here too.

I better go clean my teeth. They exist.....

Toodlepip

 

[NemeanMagik]

Trojina! There truly is the knowing, seeing of Enlightenment which whilst actually very ordinary, is nevertheless -LIBERATION!
And yes, of course it would have to be beyond concepts, but in describing this I have to use words! If I could do a dance naked in front of you all, maybe I would, but I can't, and I don't think I would either.
So, no, it is definitely NOT 'bull'.

Issue with therapist? Who knows, sometimes I feel this new 'vision' is in fact, 'releasing' me.........enabling me to see that actually I really can stand alone and know that in fact there is real virtue in that, in my own space, resplendently, and leave them all to their little boxes... I don't know. No doubt you will be able to track me on that one...

Don't forget to floss those illusory gnashers.

 

[pocossin]

Don't forget to floss those illusory gnashers.

"Food processing is fundamental to the way animals meet the energy requirements of life ": like hexagram 27.

 

[Trojina]

Issue with therapist? Who knows, sometimes I feel this new 'vision' is in fact, 'releasing' me.........enabling me to see that actually I really can stand alone and know that in fact there is real virtue in that, in my own space, resplendently

,


ompom: hope so....and yes you really can

Don't forget to floss those illusory gnashers.

Done it. Buddha got enlightened under a tree. I wonder if anyone got enlightened whilst flossing...well even if they did they'd continue flossing as in

Before enlightenment chop wood, carry water (brush and floss twice daily)
After enlightenment chop wood, carry water (brush and floss twice daily)

 

[blue_angel]

Beautiful!

 

[Trojina]

So, no, it is definitely NOT 'bull'.

Just to clarify, when I said

although some say liberation is bull because we are always already liberated and so it goes....hence my link to the dead posters society

I meant some say that the notion of enlightenment is meaningless since we are already always enlightened, there is nowhere else to go. They say the idea of not being enlightened is an illusion. Actually it is more sophisticated than that.....I mean the concepts are more sophisticated than that, but that's all written of elsewhere.






I think for you, if as you say, new ways of thinking of your self liberate you, then that is a Good Thing.

 

[NemeanMagik]

Firstly, Good Morning!

It is not that we are not 'already' enlightened - in a sense what that means is that we are already 'at the place' where the knowing of 'Enlightenment' exists - in other words POTENTIALLY we can 'know'...but the difference is certainly there between before and after - it doesn't change what is actually happening, what it changes is how one/what one sees..in the living of the life. so the chop before and after metaphor is true. But what distinguishes is - the vision, the feeling, the joy, - the 'seeing', the 'immediacy' of experience. The relative is embraced in the absolute in other words, whatever we do or don't do, but seeing from the near absolute (or absolute) is still a quantum leap; it is being 'God', and seeing FROM god, and there being nothing in between. 'Ye have heard that ye all are gods'. Who said that? Can't remember. But that is what we are talking about here. The Knowing.

Oh, and it is absolutely NOT about concepts. It is 'concepts' that create the maya. This is beyond concepts, beyond language.

 

[innertruth]

I think the issue is consciousness of self. 'Energies' are impersonal. This has been a big question for me. Without continuity of identity in this sense, karma is a total illusion as there is no 'person' to link the thread.

Maybe we are just not meant to understand all of this. Like Trojina said our reality is shaping us in many ways. We are first of all bodies of flesh that need food like fuel, then we are part of communities, then we
are independent thinkers, then we are anything that our minds lead us to be...I like Buddha's
middle way..It would be not wise to go into any extremes..You cannot be just a drop of energy if you
have your identity, born into certain circumstances (man or woman, in that or this family/country etc)...

But maybe looking for answers is the first step to get to know what you want or who you really are..It is the drive of your energy at the moment!!

Was also thinking that people are indeed different patterns of energies like Pocossin said..
and we even tune in or tune out with some people..What guides us is our free will and also karma maybe??
We cannot underestimate our energetic potential we were born with (because people have
various potentials energetically), and then what circumstances we were born into, and then what we can
do with all of that (or how we act shaped within this format so to say)....

Also strongly believe that times bring different energies into our lives....

 

[NemeanMagik]

What I am suggesting is very tough; but it is also the only way to true liberation.
Whatever we are, whatever there is, has to have context.
It is the context, and seeing from that, without 'personal' identity that constitutes 'Enlightenment'.

The 'person' who despaired in 'Leviticus' i.e. 'all is vanity', needed to take just one step further.......

 

[innertruth]

Maybe liberation would mean going away with your mind - like in a very advanced meditations..Or just shutting off everything that connects you to this world of maya..It is illusion in a higher sense..but it
requires so much determination and fearlessness in my opinion to overcome that state of
belonging to go completely astray...somewhere where our concepts do not even exist..
It is almost like breaking all ties with this maya and this world...so agree that this condition is
a liberation...but one must be prepared for it...

But then again to reach such state you need a full preparation physically and mentally - nothing really should bother you in the end - and there shouldn't be anything - maybe it's a state of koma experienced by
advanced mediators and buddhist monks. But it's a will-led koma. And it might not be koma in that scary sense (just a name for it). Point is that you free your energy from your body so it goes back to the everlasting Ocean of energy...But then there is no going back..

 

[Trojina]

It is not that we are not 'already' enlightened - in a sense what that means is that we are already 'at the place' where the knowing of 'Enlightenment' exists - in other words POTENTIALLY we can 'know'...but the difference is certainly there between before and after - it doesn't change what is actually happening, what it changes is how one/what one sees..in the living of the life.

Some would say you are stuck in thinking in linear time terms...as if there even were a before and after enlightenment... As humans we exist and have consciousness in the illusion known as time. We mostly cannot get out of that other than those peak experiences one might get in meditation etc.(apart from the enlightened people of course) I have had such peak experiences ...yes it is beyond words, I know that.. You misunderstood my point. Some say the whole notion of enlightenment is maya. Your belief that there exists a time before and after enlightenment is maya. As I said before why not go to the dead poster's society...or to get more of an insight into this kind of thinking read this journal http://www.biroco.com/journal.htm

the vision, the feeling, the joy, - the 'seeing', the 'immediacy' of experience. The relative is embraced in the absolute in other words, whatever we do or don't do, but seeing from the near absolute (or absolute) is still a quantum leap; it is being 'God', and seeing FROM god, and there being nothing in between. 'Ye have heard that ye all are gods'. Who said that? Can't remember. But that is what we are talking about here. The Knowing.

Oh, and it is absolutely NOT about concepts. It is 'concepts' that create the maya. This is beyond concepts, beyond language. .

I feel you are trying to tell me what I knew 45 years ago.....yeah I know all that...but knowing is not being enlightened. Talking about knowing about the relative and the absolute does not lead to enlightenment. If it did I would have been enlightened aged 14.

if these concepts are new to you and help you then I'm pleased for you,. because sure it can help to remember even on a cognitive level that one is part of everything.

But you completely misunderstood my point. Saying this and that is maya doesn't take anyone to enlightenment however as it is intellectual knowing. And if you are talking and writing about enlightenment you have to make it a concept in order to even think or write about it.

It's no good jumping up and down and saying 'this is not a concept' when you are talking about it. I know it is a state beyond words...I don't need you to tell me, as I said I understood this cognitively aged about 12....It doesn't lead me or anyone to enlightenment.. And you can't speed dial enlightenment through ideas and courses and discussions. So we end up realising to live our life now is our main task on this earth. To constantly question if we are real, taken to the extreme, I think might lead to a very empty life...as one might imagine if nothing is real then nothing is worth doing.

You are not experiencing liberation as far as I know, you are just talking about it. Nothing wrong with that in itself but don't imagine it is so terribly more important than living your actual life, because it isn't. Also don't imagine others don't already know and understand what you say. They do...at least I do...but I have learned 'knowing' is not enough.




Anyway I'll let you get back on track since I'm not much into these kinds of discussions....

 

[NemeanMagik]

It doesn't mean floating away and being separated from the world of maya, it simply means 'seeing' everything as they really are. Like this thing about chop before, chop after. If you look at something in front of you, on ground level as it were, it looks very different from an overview from a mountain or aeroplane. The perspective of an ant, of a dog, of a human, of an elephant - all will be different. Universes within universes. Its a bit like as a kid I'd write my address from my name down to Earth, The universe....Imagine if the Overview encompasses and understood everything it embraced. that would be unconditional love. (thanks for pm!)

 

[NemeanMagik]

Its a moving in and out of this. No 'one' is ever 'enlightened': that is impossible. Yes, this has happened. It has been a 'happening'. This 'happening' -- is all that it is. No 'person' to be 'special' as an 'enlightened person'. There are no superior persons who are 'enlightened'. If they are 'persons', then they are not enlightened at that point that they perceive themselves to be..............!

And no, I am not 'jumping up and down..'! it's perfectly okay that you disagree.

 

[Trojina]

What I am suggesting is very tough; but it is also the only way to true liberation.Whatever we are, whatever there is, has to have context.
It is the context, and seeing from that, without 'personal' identity that constitutes 'Enlightenment'.

The 'person' who despaired in 'Leviticus' i.e. 'all is vanity', needed to take just one step further.......

Oh dear me, there I was vowing I'd get off my bum and do something useful and I get sucked back in by the need to express disbelief at this statement. Good Grief NM are you having delusions of grandeur that you imagine you can instruct us in the 'only true way to liberation' ?

How would you know...you aren't liberated are you ?

You know what, to put it more strongly, I think to go through life saying 'all is vanity' is a decadent pointless way to go through life. As a concept to play with it has interest.....but to piddle about one's whole life saying 'all is vanity' is a waste of the life you are given IMO


I don't think you are the type to imagine you know the 'only true way to liberation' BTW.....it must have been an unfortunate accident of words..

I hope so as I don't much want to be 'instructed' about 'the only true way to liberation' by someone on this forum.....or anywhere. There are no instructions.

 

[Trojina]

I Trojina am now getting off my bum to do the many things that need doing all around me

I Trojina am now getting off my bum to do the many things that need doing all around me

I Trojina am now getting off my bum to do the many things that need doing all around me

I Trojina...off bum....

I don't want to get sucked back into this thread

I am getting off my bum


I have finished here...

I am now getting off my bum

Oh yes

Off my bum



......

 

[NemeanMagik]

It okay, I am juggling live conversations with/on radio WM on the subject of Surveillance Cameras, and the Outrage of Proposed Interest on Debit Card Transactions with this very earthy and entrenched dialogue about Enlightenment on Clarity, --so there you are, still struggling, still conflict for me: Much Chopping Wood, Carrying Water despite my Heightened Perspectives..