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Is this correct? I see many definitions of what is Zhen and Xun etc. Help please.

Mustafa

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First I want to apologize if I've been rude (to especially David). I'm frustrated.

Please tell me if this table, the first table on this website is correct. Preferably if you have time if all this site is correct.

Kindly
Mustafa

The site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua
Zhen and Kun are oppsitely described (as I noticed) in this site here, compared to the first site above: https://charmvirgo.wordpress.com
 

moss elk

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Hi Mustafa,

The wiki page you linked to is about Bagua & Taoism . The Trigrams Zhen and Kun, and the I Ching predate Bagua and Taoism.
The chart references many things that most of us here do not study. (body part related to a trigram, chinese zodiac, accupuncture....etc.)

So, while I could comment on the attributes of trigrams, I cannot comment on the 'Correctness' of all the other material and systems there.

What exactly are you wanting to know?
 
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Gmulii

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I think we may need more then that to work with. What is oppsitely described?
 
F

Freedda

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Mustafa, no offense taken, at least from me. I'd more likely to be offended if you didn't find the trigrams confusing!

That said, and as others have asked, what is it you're wanting to know? More about what the trigrams mean and how to make use of them? Or ...?

For the site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua - actually, I find the second table more useful and clear. It's the one under the text, 'There are eight possible combinations to render the various trigrams (八卦 bāguà):'

In particular the columns with Translation: Wilhelm; Image in nature; Attribute; and Stage/ state I find most helpful. The first table may have some useful info, but since it covers so many correspondences with other systems and beliefs (zodiac, chakras, planets, meridians, Bushido, etc.), I find it confusing and not all that useful in understanding the trigrams.

The second web site you refer to - https://charmvirgo.wordpress.com - is equally confusing to me. There is some good info there, but you'd have to know how to sort through a lot of gobble-di-goop to get to it.

For more about the trigrams, some good sources might be:
I'd say that learning about and working with the trigrams is not all that straightforward, in that there are a broad range of associations and meanings that people have about them, and also because there are different ways (and some disagreement) about how to use them. Also, you have to remember (and consider) how the trigrams interact with one another within a hexagram and within a reading.

For example, Earth above Heaven conveys quite a different meaning and relationship than Heaven above Earth - even though you looking at the same two trigrams. And (for me at least) what is being conveyed - even with identical hexgrams, trigrams and moving lines - will be different if I were asking about cleaning my house versus how to find creative inspiration, versus where to find a lost copy of the Yi.

All that said, I find them helpful, but I know some of how I work with them takes me a bit far afield from 'usual' Yi methods.

Best, David.
 
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Mustafa

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Mustafa, no offense taken, at least from me. I'd more likely to be offended if you didn't find the trigrams confusing!

That said, and as others have asked, what is it you're wanting to know? More about what the trigrams mean and how to make use of them? Or ...?

For the site: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bagua - actually, I find the second table more useful and clear. It's the one under the text, 'There are eight possible combinations to render the various trigrams (八卦 bāguà):'

In particular the columns with Translation: Wilhelm; Image in nature; Attribute; and Stage/ state I find most helpful. The first table may have some useful info, but since it covers so many correspondences with other systems and beliefs (zodiac, chakras, planets, meridians, Bushido, etc.), I find it confusing and not all that useful in understanding the trigrams.

The second web site you refer to - https://charmvirgo.wordpress.com - is equally confusing to me. There is some good info there, but you'd have to know how to sort through a lot of gobble-di-goop to get to it.

For more about the trigrams, some good sources might be:
I'd say that learning about and working with the trigrams is not all that straightforward, in that there are a broad range of associations and meanings that people have about them, and also because there are different ways (and some disagreement) about how to use them. Also, you have to remember (and consider) how the trigrams interact with one another within a hexagram and within a reading.

For example, Earth above Heaven conveys quite a different meaning and relationship than Heaven above Earth - even though you looking at the same two trigrams. And (for me at least) what is being conveyed - even with identical hexgrams, trigrams and moving lines - will be different if I were asking about cleaning my house versus how to find creative inspiration, versus where to find a lost copy of the Yi.

All that said, I find them helpful, but I know some of how I work with them takes me a bit far afield from 'usual' Yi methods.

Best, David.
Brother David.
Can you elaborate on the bold in your text?
1. I want to know about the lines in the trigrams/hexagrams. I think the start, the bottom line in trigrams is Grandmother/Earth/Kun and the top line Grandfather. Can you give me keywords for each line and combination Brother David, like loyality or kindness. Or something to attach to like OCEAN in psychology (i'm not good there).

According to the wiki bagua link Chinese Zodiac i'm consciously sheep (everything, Qian), and subconciously tiger (Emptiness, Tiger). I'm born in the year of fire tiger 1986
2. Trigrams within a hexagram. Is there a brief text covering this?
 

Mustafa

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Haha. You're drowning me with text links registrations. I struggel.
 

Gmulii

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According to the wiki bagua link Chinese Zodiac i'm consciously sheep (everything, Qian), and subconciously tiger (Emptiness, Tiger). I'm born in the year of fire tiger 1986

This isn't exactly yi jing, though.
And we don't calculate it like this, usually.

Here is some info:

Many books for bazi out there, for people just starting I always recommend Kevins blog here:


Translating Trigrams/hexagrams to pillars and the other way around can be done in many ways. In general it depends how you want to use them later, as the way of "converting" is different depending on that. Some info here:


Here is calculator:

Keep in mind the symbolic stars won't always be valid, as this is just showing potential.
 
F

Freedda

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1. I want to know about the lines in the trigrams/hexagrams. I think the start, the bottom line in trigrams is Grandmother/Earth/Kun and the top line Grandfather. Can you give me keywords for each line and combination ..., like loyality or kindness ....
Mustafa, first a suggestion: when you quote someone's post, you don't always have to use the whole thing - as you did with me, above. I often edit or pare down the quoted text to just what I'm asking about or responding to.

Besides, this, I gave you some links and resources above to get you started on understanding the trigrams, including Hilary's Foundation course. As to the lines, I've never heard of this Grandmother/Grandfather association for the trigram lines. But besides this, you seem to be getting 'in the weeds' with all this, by jumping to individual line meanings before you have a sense of the hexagrams or trigrams.

According to ... Chinese Zodiac i'm consciously sheep, and subconciously tiger ....
So, are you wanting to learn about the Yi, or about the Chinese Zodiac? As I said above, I don't recommend the first table exactly because it goes off into too many associations that are not really about the Yi .... but this seems to be exactly the place you decided to go to ... so, again, I can't help you with the zodiac's tiger and sheep at all - or if they even have anything to do with the Yi.

2. Trigrams within a hexagram. Is there a brief text covering this?
Yes, see the references I already gave you.

D.
 

Mustafa

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David said: Besides, this, I gave you some links and resources above to get you started on understanding the trigrams, including Hilary's Foundation course. As to the lines, I've never heard of this Grandmother/Grandfather association for the trigram lines. But besides this, you seem to be getting 'in the weeds' with all this, by jumping to individual line meanings before you have a sense of the hexagrams or trigrams.

Reply: Hillary Barrets book which I have calls, Qian/Chien or Heaven for father, and Kun mother. Charmvirgo, above, and many other sites calls them the foundation and grandparents. The other trigrams are children. For example Hillary Barret says Zhen is eldest son, and Gen youngest son, and Kan middle son. The other three are girls.

A broken line is yin, and whole line is yand, i have casted many times. A hexagram is two trigrams. There are 8 trigrams, 8x8=64 hexagrams.

But i need keywords. Is this allright? I appreciate all help, but i don't like to be drowned.
 

Mustafa

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This isn't exactly yi jing, though.
And we don't calculate it like this, usually.

Here is some info:

Many books for bazi out there, for people just starting I always recommend Kevins blog here:


Translating Trigrams/hexagrams to pillars and the other way around can be done in many ways. In general it depends how you want to use them later, as the way of "converting" is different depending on that. Some info here:


Here is calculator:

Keep in mind the symbolic stars won't always be valid, as this is just showing potential.
Thank you brother, i'll take time to research this. Is Bazi theChinese name (and Japanese) name for Chinese zodiac?
 
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Freedda

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Hillary Barrets book which I have calls, Qian/Chien or Heaven for father, and Kun mother .... many other sites calls them the foundation and grandparents. The other trigrams are children. For example Hillary Barret says Zhen is eldest son, and Gen youngest son, and Kan middle son. The other three are girls.
Yes, among the many associations for the trigrams, there are the associations with family members. But while that is interesting, it might not be of immediate use to you without a more whole or complete understanding of the trigrams.

So my advice is to not sweat that too much for now. I would guess that Hilary offers other info. about the trigrams besides family associations, am I right? I don't have the book in front of me, but I am pretty sure she talks about the 'qualities' or meanings of each. That's what I suggest you focus on.

A broken line is yin, and whole line is yang, i have casted many times. A hexagram is two trigrams. There are 8 trigrams, 8x8=64 hexagrams.
Yes, yin and yang are two of the associations with the broken and whole lines. I don't use or really pay much attention to yin/yang, so I can't help you with those meanings.

But i need keywords ....
And as I said, Bradford Hatcher's Yi - along with Hilary's - will give you lots of info. about each trigram: he offers key words, and the symbolism (meanings), and the words associated with each from the Yi commentary (the 'Wings' or Shuo Gua).

Between Bradford and Hilary, I think you'll find much of what you're looking for. As for a few (and only a very short list!!!) of some of the associations I have:

Heaven: Creative, the Big-Picture
Earth: Accepting, nurturing, Gaia
Mountain: Stillness, stubbornness,
Lake: Joy, (perhaps selfishly so?)
Thunder: Suddenness, quick action/reaction
Wind/Wood: To slowly, gently explore/grow
Abyss (River): Danger, flow, the unknown
Fire: Flame, sun, clarity

But, if you want to understand these, you you'll need to figure out what they mean for YOU.

Best, D.
 
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Gmulii

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Thank you brother, i'll take time to research this. Is Bazi theChinese name (and Japanese) name for Chinese zodiac?

Well... They have the 12 animals, that are "the earthly branches". And they are earthly representation of the elements.
But they have one more layer on top of that, that is the heavenly stems, that are elements in pure form, more or less.

Their calendar is rotating combinations of earthly branch(deeper level) and its heavenly stem(surface). Each of these pillars will rotate through the elements until they start from the beginning, making their calendar cyclic. Everything keeps repeating, its not like the Gregorian that keeps moving forward. In there we won't know if someone is born now or 60 years back, as the bazi will be the same.

So like every noon we have 12:00(more or less) they will have Wu Horse(Yang Fire). And there will be a stem on top of it, for example it can be Bing(Yang Fire as well).

We have 12 animals(branches) rotating at the earth level and we have 10 stems rotating on the heaven level. So basically there is 60 possible combinations(since they are always the same polarity), so each day will have its own branch and stem.

The branches and stems at the hour,day, month and year will be 4x4=8, so we have for each specific hour 8 characters showing all influences. 4 earthly branches(animals) and 4 heavenly stems making complete 8 characters for the full date/time.

We say "water dragon year" and that basically means Yang Water on top of Yang Earth in the Year Pillar.
(stem and branch are always same polarity yang/yang or yin/yin, so the only possible water dragon would be yang water).


bazi means "8 characters".

ba 八 = 8
zi 字 = character

So we work with the idea that someones destiny is contain in that 8 characters as they were at time of their birth.
Reading that is similar to our astrology, when we look at it from outside, though very different in practice.
 
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Freedda

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Well... They have the 12 animals, that are "the earthly branches". And they are earthly representation of the elements.
@Gmulii - one idea I had is you might want to start a thread about Chinese astrology - or whatever it is you're describing here. It might be interesting to people as its own topic. D.
 

Gmulii

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hilary

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LiSe Heyboer also has excellent pages on the trigrams that really work to give you a feel for their individual characters. Start here and click the trigrams at the top of the page for more on each one.
 

moss elk

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But i need keywords.

Do you mean something like:

||| active, strong, firm, above, leader

::: passive, weak, yielding, below, follower

|:| bright, dry, hot, illuminating

:|: dark, wet, cold, drowning

|:: movement, shocking

::| stillness, calmness

:|| gentle, subtle

||: joyous, satisfaction
 

Mustafa

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Yes thank you. I will translate this article briefly from Norwgian and would be happy for hearing about what you think.

American Robert Clonninger defined 3 temperaments (before there was 4, and in my understanding it had been long four, known as Sanguine, Choleric etc.)

  1. harm avoidance, HA
  2. reward dependence, RD
  3. novelty seeking, NS
The connection between Clonningers temperaments and personality disorders
style="width: 100%"
|-
! PersonlighetsforstyrrelseSorter
! UbehagsunngåelseSorter
! Belønningsavhengig Sorter
! SpenningssøkendeSorter
|-
| Antisosial
| ↓
| ↓
| ↑
|-
| Dramatiserende
| ↓
| ↑
| ↑
|-
| Eksplosiv
| ↑
| ↓
| ↑
|-
| Passiv-aggressiv
|
|
|
|-
| Cyklotym
| ↓
| ↑
| ↓
|-
| Schizoid
|
|
|
|-
| Tvangspreget
| ↑
| ↓
| ↓
|-
| Avhengig
| ↑
| ↑
| ↓

I think Qian is above like previous post by moss elk says, and this is arrow pointing down. Being on all 3 temperament pointing down is what is called shizoid, a diagnosis I had, now I have Asperger/Autism. Being a no-man but moral.

Kun is arrow up, a yes-man. He says yes to everything and consequently no to others. As arrow up she breaks down. She is confused and manic.

All children are Qian, they believe without exception in a higher power in heaven, the heaven the enviroment pointing down arrow towards the children on earth and Children are like Masters (in Tao Te Ching) and Masters are like Tao, leaders.

I think Qian is Tao, and Qian is Heaven. We could be cheap copies and we couldn't
 
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Mustafa

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Do you mean something like:

||| active, strong, firm, above, leader

::: passive, weak, yielding, below, follower

|:| bright, dry, hot, illuminating

:|: dark, wet, cold, drowning

|:: movement, shocking

::| stillness, calmness

:|| gentle, subtle

||: joyous, satisfaction
Do you know what the lines symbolizes? As in webdesign as i just discovered, i need a 'static page' to show the second objects in my webpage that are 'posts'.

So can you help me define static pages (the lines in particular, here) so my posts will show?
 

moss elk

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Do you know what the lines symbolizes?

I am not aware that a line in a trigram means anything, (other than low, central, & high)
when it is not associated with a hexagram.


So can you help me define static pages (the lines in particular, here) so my posts will show?
Sorry, I'm not sure what you are talking about there.
 

Mustafa

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@moss elk You are not sure what i'm talking about because you erased my text where i elxplain what i mean a 'static page'. It is static, and not everchanging. It's a page, it is white, because i could write on it with black ink. In a computer it is possible to have a dark screen and bright text.
 

moss elk

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Are you asking me:

1-If I can help you with web design?
or
2-something to do with the I Ching?

Please keep your answer simple,
since there is some sort of language barrier.
 

Gmulii

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Yes thank you. I will translate this article briefly from Norwgian and would be happy for hearing about what you think.

American Robert Clonninger defined 3 temperaments (before there was 4, and in my understanding it had been long four, known as Sanguine, Choleric etc.)

  1. harm avoidance, HA
  2. reward dependence, RD
  3. novelty seeking, NS
The connection between Clonningers temperaments and personality disorders
style="width: 100%"
|-
! PersonlighetsforstyrrelseSorter
! UbehagsunngåelseSorter
! Belønningsavhengig Sorter
! SpenningssøkendeSorter
|-
| Antisosial
| ↓
| ↓
| ↑
|-
| Dramatiserende
| ↓
| ↑
| ↑
|-
| Eksplosiv
| ↑
| ↓
| ↑
|-
| Passiv-aggressiv
|
|
|
|-
| Cyklotym
| ↓
| ↑
| ↓
|-
| Schizoid
|
|
|
|-
| Tvangspreget
| ↑
| ↓
| ↓
|-
| Avhengig
| ↑
| ↑
| ↓

I think Qian is above like previous post by moss elk says, and this is arrow pointing down. Being on all 3 temperament pointing down is what is called shizoid, a diagnosis I had, now I have Asperger/Autism. Being a no-man but moral.

Kun is arrow up, a yes-man. He says yes to everything and consequently no to others. As arrow up she breaks down. She is confused and manic.

All children are Qian, they believe without exception in a higher power in heaven, the heaven the enviroment pointing down arrow towards the children on earth and Children are like Masters (in Tao Te Ching) and Masters are like Tao, leaders.

I think Qian is Tao, and Qian is Heaven. We could be cheap copies and we couldn't

But this is projecting the western views to the Chinese. And that isn't very good idea, when beginning with this, because in there stuff is just different. The heart xin 心 is what matters. So in that sense if we see shen神 as clarity in understanding the world, then if there are problems with that that is obstruction of the "shen of the heart", in that sense its something preventing that person to "see" clearly.

In that sense Kun will be confused and manic if shen神 is obstructed.
Kun will be manic if the hun魂 is too strong, but that is complicated to go into here and now.
If not, Kun will be the blank page Heaven will paint on. That is a good position to be in.

And Qi Gong is often viewed as only "aligning the heart(xin心)". We may practice for many years, develop internal alchemy, work with Kan and Li and the microcosmic orbit and the lightbodies and while all that may seem really nice, from their point of view, all of it is only done so we can "fix" the heart心 and the clearity when looking at the world.

The lines have meaning, but there are many ways to read a hexagram. As other members already mention in here that part of the system is rarely used, so going into it is better to be saved for later(if ever) for members here in my view.
But if you check the Jing Fang Palaces around the forum(Harmen has very nice info on them in the crane in the shade site), you can see how the Self moves through the lines and what roles it will take.

I get all this probably doesn't make much sense yet. However repeating the western view to it can be very misleading, as there is a lot of power in the way the East views all that. Up to you of course, but the Trigrams even in the later heaven arrangment are a lot more fun and good then the way they would look if connected to western views to personalities even more so if we view it as personality "disorders". As in there all that would be disorders of the heart心 and shen神.
 

Mustafa

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But this is projecting the western views to the Chinese. And that isn't very good idea, when beginning with this, because in there stuff is just different. The heart xin 心 is what matters. So in that sense if we see shen神 as clarity in understanding the world, then if there are problems with that that is obstruction of the "shen of the heart", in that sense its something preventing that person to "see" clearly.

In that sense Kun will be confused and manic if shen神 is obstructed.
Kun will be manic if the hun魂 is too strong, but that is complicated to go into here and now.
If not, Kun will be the blank page Heaven will paint on. That is a good position to be in.

And Qi Gong is often viewed as only "aligning the heart(xin心)". We may practice for many years, develop internal alchemy, work with Kan and Li and the microcosmic orbit and the lightbodies and while all that may seem really nice, from their point of view, all of it is only done so we can "fix" the heart心 and the clearity when looking at the world.

The lines have meaning, but there are many ways to read a hexagram. As other members already mention in here that part of the system is rarely used, so going into it is better to be saved for later(if ever) for members here in my view.
But if you check the Jing Fang Palaces around the forum(Harmen has very nice info on them in the crane in the shade site), you can see how the Self moves through the lines and what roles it will take.

I get all this probably doesn't make much sense yet. However repeating the western view to it can be very misleading, as there is a lot of power in the way the East views all that. Up to you of course, but the Trigrams even in the later heaven arrangment are a lot more fun and good then the way they would look if connected to western views to personalities even more so if we view it as personality "disorders". As in there all that would be disorders of the heart心 and shen神.
Yeah, we arabs when we hear discourse we don't understand we say: "He's talking Chinese or something" as a Joke, an Ice breaker. We Arabs (And Muslims) believe we must follow laws, and normative prescrptions, and all this time there are possibly wrong or actually adapted theories to our time by contemporary scientists. All this time, we have the Qur'an which is a timeless masterpiece quite as confusing and deep as Chinese wisdom. For me, for scholars, Asia is the source of spirituality, mysticism and we value intelligence, and there is what i call west Asian wisdom (The Prophet Abrahams laws) and East Asian Laws (Buddhism, Taoism, I Ching etc). Our religions (both are Asian) are either circular/dharmic or linear/Abrahamic. Europeans are not "aliens", neither American, and Asians are not Superiour. Exactly like the Arab Muslim world is linear, Christianity is also linear. Linear means there is a 'first day' and 'final day' or Armageddon. All major beliefs including Buddhism and Hindism (and in extension Taoism and Zen) believe in a final day.

I think xin (the heart) is temperament 2 or love, as mentioned above. As Mentioned above shen (Mind/soul?) is the faculty developed by temperament 3. Temperament 1 is harm-avoidance, or by Buddhas and Allahs words: Suffering.

Qur'an 42:27: And if Allah had extended [excessively] provision for His servants, they would have committed tyranny throughout the earth. But He sends [it] down in an amount which He wills. Indeed He is, of His servants, Acquainted and Seeing.
 

Mustafa

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Are you asking me:

1-If I can help you with web design?
or
2-something to do with the I Ching?

Please keep your answer simple,
since there is some sort of language barrier.
I didn't mean to help me with site, i used the site as example. I meant I Ching. Like Gmulii undrrstood: "Allow heaven to write on your white paper". As i said, the paper can be black and get text erased forth - which is hard and troublesome. Text (black ink) or paper is sin, white paper is tabla rassa or purity.
 
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Freedda

Guest
I didn't mean to help me with site, i used the site as example. I meant I Ching. Like Gmulii undrrstood: "Allow heaven to write on your white paper". As i said, the paper can be black and get text erased forth - which is hard and troublesome. Text (black ink) or paper is sin, white paper is tabla rassa or purity.
Mustafa, I really have no idea what you're talking about, and quite honestly, it does not make a whole lot of sense to me. I gave you what I felt were good references but it seems you've instead decided to go of on all sorts of other directions that are unrelated and disconnected from the Yi. I can certainly see looking in different places and directions for understanding, but usually one does this with some sense of a solid starting place, which I'm not sure is present here.
 
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Mustafa

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Mustafa, I really have no idea what you're talking about, and quite honestly it seems a bit crazy to me. I gave you what I felt were good references but it seems you've instead decided to go of on all sorts of other directions that are unrelated and disconnected from the Yi. I can certainly see looking in different places and directions for understanding, but usually one does this with some sense of a solid starting place, which I'm not sure is present here.
So you're not the one adressed (I didn't quote you, i quoted elk) and you're not sure. Did you google or even reflect on what I said? I'm Muslim! Why should i be ignorant? Muslims are generally hard-working highly educated people.

They say in English: "Great minds think alike". Accordingly I don't think I Ching as a thought is different than the Qur'an. At least not better.

And does your objection on me mean you think I Ching is superior to The God present in the Qur'an Bible and Torah? Are you seekung trouble? I can research anything anytime i can that, and i'm not obligated to do this for you now. Its me whom benefits from this. Not you. I am not thankful to your contribution here, nor do i consider you enemy. You're a stranger to me. Like Buddha says in the heart Sutra: "Emptiness is form and form is emptiness".
 

moss elk

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Mustafa,
I study and consult the I Ching.

Your question is not about the I Ching.

Your question is about qualities ascribed to the I Ching structure and symbols by another system or systems,
therefore I cannot answer it.

Maybe someone else can point you to some reference material.
 
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Mustafa

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My question is about the lines, what they mean. I've only gotten it postphoned. As Muslim, as my mother says, be like a (peace) dove flying from branch to branch. Being Muslim, being Believer as i heard from Buddhists is believing in everything. So I do Believe in I Ching, as magic, and i can't use it, it is under the much later Allah.

So i'm asking to be informed about this Chinese culture, and i said above: "I don't like to be drowned (by text) like water/Kan". Hillary knows i got hexagram 34 and 30, and 30 (Li above and Li below) is like she said an awake person like two eyes. So take Kan away from me!
 

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Office 17622,
PO Box 6945,
London.
W1A 6US
United Kingdom

Phone/ Voicemail:
+44 (0)20 3287 3053 (UK)
+1 (561) 459-4758 (US).

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