It furthers one to see the great man

[hmesker]

Harmen, I seem to remember reading in Rutt somewhere that the king could both make you noble by enfeoffing you, and also demote you from noble to peasant if you lost a battle. So being junzi wouldn't necessarily/ exclusively be something you were born into, even early on.

Ah yes, that's true. But I assume that as a 'chosen one' you didn't really have a choice: being recognized as a junzi you could not decline the offer. That would be a great insult, I think. So being born into it or not, the responsability was chosen for you.

BTW, Wu Jing Nuan describes 'seeing the great person' as consulting with the diviner - maybe a related meaning to the official who interpreted dreams?

That's possible. After all the da ren is described as a person who divines by interpreting dreams.

Harmen.

 

[maremaria]

It might be a warning, or it might be nothing other than something which is very, very useful, like when you want to become a doctor or concert pianist, you need a teacher to show you lots of things you need to know to achieve that goal.

Thanks for leaving out the word "virtue" from my quote; I was just about to edit it out of my post. It isn't "seeing virtue", it's just "seeing", or more specifically, seeing as a great (or as Brad calls it: a mature) person would see.

I don't know if I 'm in the right track, but the way this thread is moving, it make me think again about that phrase.

Dobro, you are rigth. I cannot be a doctor unless I have someone to teach me how to become one. But what kind of doctor I want to be determines what "great man" i'll seek to help me.
Meng what you said about "see" make me notice that word in that phrase.


Maybe Yi doesn't simply tell us to find a helper but examine the situation we are in , and decide whether we have all we need or not and then look for help to get what we lack.

 

[hilary]

Oh yes, the word 'see' is definitely worth noticing. 'Seeing the great person' has to mean some kind of change in awareness, whatever else it might mean. "Seeking for the greatness some beings have and learning from it" sums it up very well for me. It also reminds me of an idea from Carol Anthony, reflected in Ritsema/ Sabbadini's awkward wording 'seeing the great in the person'. Maybe it's possible to use this as a cue to see and relate to the great person in whoever you're interacting with at the time.

There are also times when a great person really needs to be a third party - it often seems to be that way in Hexagram 6. If you're in the middle of an intense argument for your rights and your needs, you're not best placed to see the great person in yourself or anyone else. It's what they have divorce mediators for.

Harmen - yes, but if you were king, socially noble or an ancient Northern chief (looking at your dictionary excerpt), you'd also had this chosen for you, so how robust is the distinction?

We know that eventually, being a junzi became a quality of character to aspire to. I wonder exactly when that was. As looking at the lines contrasting junzi and small person in Yi, the difference it does seem to be a matter of character and insight rather than position. (Whereas the difference between prince and small person in 14.4 is surely about social position and resources.)

 

[hilary]

The first time we're encouraged to see the great person is in 1.2 and 1.5. So what's the connection with dragons, in the field or flying?

 

[dobro p]

Well, how do you deal with a dragon? How'd you like to deal with a dragon without any prep? You really, really want an expert onside when dealing with dragons.

BTW, have you ever read the Wizard of Earthsea? Useful information about 'em in there. But by and large, best just to keep your distance whenever feasible.

 

[hmesker]

Harmen - yes, but if you were king, socially noble or an ancient Northern chief (looking at your dictionary excerpt), you'd also had this chosen for you, so how robust is the distinction?

By giving that list I did not mean that all the entries would fit the context of the Yi texts in which da ren is used. Personally I would choose the 'diviner by dreams' definition - it fits the time line and the context of the Yi. But it all depends on context. There is also rhyme in the short sentence li jian da ren, something which adds weight to the expression (must explore whether this rhyme also existed during Zhou times though).

I also find it significant that the term da ren mostly occurs in the Judgment text, at the 5th line, and at the 2nd line. Apart from the 6th line of H39 the term does not occur at other lines.

Harmen.

 

[meng]

Oh yes, the word 'see' is definitely worth noticing. 'Seeing the great person' has to mean some kind of change in awareness, whatever else it might mean. "Seeking for the greatness some beings have and learning from it" sums it up very well for me. It also reminds me of an idea from Carol Anthony, reflected in Ritsema/ Sabbadini's awkward wording 'seeing the great in the person'. Maybe it's possible to use this as a cue to see and relate to the great person in whoever you're interacting with at the time.

Assuming there is more than one "great person", in the complete sense. We could consider the archetype of "the great" or "mature" or "fully refined one" as the Buddha, or the cultural equivalent.

There are also times when a great person really needs to be a third party - it often seems to be that way in Hexagram 6. If you're in the middle of an intense argument for your rights and your needs, you're not best placed to see the great person in yourself or anyone else. It's what they have divorce mediators for.

I agree, there are times. But it's kind funny, this morning I received 6.3,5-50 about a purely personal matter, and only I could have acted as arbitrator in this matter.

There's nothing in Yi which can not be found within ourselves, including the dragon or "The Great Man", if we're willing and able to see him.

 

[maremaria]

........
I also find it significant that the term da ren mostly occurs in the Judgment text, at the 5th line, and at the 2nd line. .....
Harmen.

That’s interesting Harmen,

From LiSe’s site :

Line 2: Relations, contact with the world, maintaining oneself in contacts, seek or avoid contact.
Line 5: Spiritual exchange, leading, mental growth, society.

From Bradford’s PDFs :

The time of

Line 2 : Internal development, Scoping,Grouping,Preperation, Small advances
Line 5 : Manifestation, Mastery, Control, Authority, Achievement< finesse, Optima

Situations and Suggested Approaches

Line 2 : A time for Zhen: persistence, commitment,loyalty, focus or thoroughness. Situations broaden, some limits are learned, skill and resources are called on

Line 5 : The time bears its fruit. Subsequent decay is still not apparent. A time for the moderation and balance suited to mastery and nobility. The merit shows.

 

[meng]

Maybe because da ren is central, in the center of heaven and of earth. Being central in two places, possibly at once, is an interesting idea.

 

[maremaria]

Like a pinwheel (windmill) toy . As long as the pin is strong enough to keep the vanes together, It can rotate sweepingly.

 

[meng]

Like the Wheel of life?

I was referring to position 2 and 5. 2 is the middle of the earth trigram, 5 is the middle of the heaven trigram. Seems a fitting place for da ren.

 

[maremaria]

Like the Wheel of life?

.

No. The center = the pin

 

[dobro p]

The first time we're encouraged to see the great person is in 1.2 and 1.5. So what's the connection with dragons, in the field or flying?

Hilary, my other answer to this was just having some fun. But it's a good question, and I see maybe two answers.

1 The great person partakes of dragon power, the great person is a 'dragon master'. So when you start dealing with that power in your own life, who better to consult than somebody who's intimately familiar with dealing with ('fielding') that very thing? For instance, in yoga, they talk about (and sometimes cultivate) the serpent power known as kundalini. People who manifest this energy on their own really have a very hard and scary time of it, but people who have an instructor who KNOWS that energy through personal experience can help them a lot.

2 The great person crops up 11 times in the Yi, I think. (Less often than the jun1 zi3, which is interesting.) The da4 ren2 seems to put in an appearance whenever the higher, balancing force of his/her being is required.

1.2 and 1.5: dealing with dragon power

6: dealing with conflict and contention

12.5, 12.6: dealing with obstruction and standstill and stagnation

39: dealing with limping advance

45: dealing with gathering, the confluence of large numbers

46: dealing with rising to a higher level

47: dealing with confinement

49.5: dealing with transformation

57: interestingly, dealing with the flexible penetration of the foundation of things (I've never understand why the da4 ren2 is necessary here. Maybe it's dodgy penetrating to the foundation of things?)

In almost all of these situation, the da4 ren2 appears when it's really important to keep things on track (or brought back onto track), when you're dealing with big forces that require 'higher guidance'. I would also say that the appearance of the great person in these hexagrams is a surefire indication of the nature of the energies being dealt with - 'big times require a big person'.

But really, have you read the Wizard of Earthsea?

 

[meng]

No. The center = the pin

Last one to the center's a rotten egg.

http://downloads.wisdompubs.org/website_downloads/WheelofLife.jpg

 

[meng]

Maria,

I'm not sure if you understand what I meant by "last one to the center is a rotten egg". Here it is a child's expression, when they race to a certain place. Being the pin in the wheel is great, but it's not at all easy to achieve that place for any enduring length of time. That's why I compared it to the Tibetan wheel. You must first "negotiate" successfully with all obstacles, some of them horrible, before you can enter into the center. Also, notice that the image encompasses the duality of heaven and earth.

I'm told that line 2 and 5 both represent man: below on earth, above in heaven. Is it possible to be two places at once? Two wheels? Or one wheel which encompasses both?

 

[maremaria]

Maria,

I'm not sure if you understand what I meant by "last one to the center is a rotten egg". .........
... That's why I compared it to the Tibetan wheel. .....

Thanks for clarifying. New phrase on my list

I'll back later ...

Maria

 

[charly]

... 57: interestingly, dealing with the flexible penetration of the foundation of things (I've never understand why the da4 ren2 is necessary here...

... the da4 ren2 appears when it's really important to keep things on track (or brought back onto track), when you're dealing with big forces that require 'higher guidance'...

Dobro:
I agree with all what you say about the context da ren appears. I wonder why didn't you understand the necessity of having a da ren in H.57.

Wilhelm is clear:

THE GENTLE.

Success through what is small.
It furthers one to have somewhere to go.
It furthers one to see the great man.​

• Penetration produces gradual and inconspicuous effects.
• It should be effected not by an act of violation but by influence that never lapses.
• Results of this kind are less striking to the eye than those won by surprise attack, but they are more enduring and more complete.
• If one would produce such effects, one must have a clearly defined goal, for only when the penetrating influence works always in the same direction can the object be attained.
• Small strength can achieve its purpose only by subordinating itself to an eminent man who is capable of creating order.

Wilhem/Baynes

... and the chinese text:

巽 sun4: submission
SUBMISSION
GENTLENESS

小 xiao3: small / tiny / little
亨 heng1: sacrifice / feast / treat // success / to succeed
LITTLE FEASTS
LITTLE SUCCEEDS

利 li4: profit / profitable
有 you3: to have / there is / there are
攸 you1: far / where ?
往 wang3: to go (in a direction)
PROFITABLE HAVING WHERE TO GO
PROFITABLE HAVING TO GO FAR


利 li4: profit / profitable
見 jian4: to see / to meet
大 da4: big / huge / large / great
人ren2: man / person / people
PROFITABLE TO SEE A GREAT-MAN
PROFITABLE TO MEET THE GREAT-MAN

The dramatis personæ are few:

• 大人 Da-Ren, «Big-Man»: the one capable of getting his purpose with small strenght.
• 小 Xiao, «Little»: the one feasting at the begining, maybe twin brother of the first.
• ... and of couse, backstage, We.

The action is simple, for each step there is an advice:

• at the begining to feast, «go as far as you can» or «have a goal in your mind»
• at the end an ordered retreat, «get a big-man for to proceed», «you need a big-man for comming to an end alive»

It's not, as Legge said, matter of «little success» ...

Sun intimates that (under the conditions which it denotes) there will be some little attainment and progress. There will be advantage in movement onward in whatever direction. It will be advantageous (also) to see the great man.
Legge
From: http://www.sacred-texts.com/ich/ic57.htm

... it's about Little (aka «The Gentle») who succeeds and gets the help of Big for not to end badly.

Big is a yet initiated tall man, Little is like a child, not yet initiated but willing to be. Blofeld translated H.57 as «Willing Submission» and Rutt as «Food Offerings».

Yours,

Charly

 

[dougd]

Quit Interpreting !

You guys don't get it. Take it literally as it is meant to be. And don't make the mistake that every religion does of trying to INTERPRET the scriptures.

Now a big clue. If you want to know the Great Man of this time in history visit http://www.wopg.org

 

[Sparhawk]

You guys don't get it. Take it literally as it is meant to be. And don't make the mistake that every religion does of trying to INTERPRET the scriptures.

Now a big clue. If you want to know the Great Man of this time in history visit http://www.wopg.org

LOL!! I don't know how old you are but the statement sounds youthful and full of hope. I'll venture to say that perhaps I've been a "Premie" for longer than you've been alive (1977, if I remember correctly). Prem Rawat has a great message and I applaud his stepping down the pedestal of being "Lord of the Universe" (when I was initiated he still was... ). I suppose it was a self-demotion. Nevertheless, just as a Mason is always a Mason, a Premie is always a Premie, even if they stray away, like most do on any religion or cult. And believe me, back in the 70's and early 80's, the Mission of the Divine Light was as "cultish" as they come. I doubt it is much different now. Have fun! I did.

 

[dougd]

You left? You fool !

 

[Sparhawk]

You left? You fool !

Nice meeting you too, Dougd... If I didn't know better I'd believe that Prem Rawat was recruiting trolls to do further recruiting. Perhaps I should drop him a note. One thing I can assert is that you are not seriously helping his cause.

Jai sat chit anand!

 

[dougd]

Nice meeting you too, Dougd... If I didn't know better I'd believe that Prem Rawat was recruiting trolls to do further recruiting. Perhaps I should drop him a note. One thing I can assert is that you are not seriously helping his cause.

Jai sat chit anand!

Not nice meeting you scumbag. Have fun with your I Ching but it won't help your stupidity.

 

[Sparhawk]

Not nice meeting you scumbag. Have fun with your I Ching but it won't help your stupidity.

He-he-hilarious!! ROFLMAO Yup, that was zealotry I remember! Thanks for making my point. I couldn't have done it better!

Jai sat chit anand!

 

[seethis]

I always assumed intuitively that "seeing the great man" was an encouragement to be indepedent and mature enough to transcent and judge for myself what a specific situation/line is about are what needs to be done (regardless of whether one really has the ability to rise to such inner clarity and independence in judgement or not at that particular given time). Whether this meant something else in China's past, either moralistically or spiritually, all the different instiutional representations (kings, princes, diviners, etc) of such a person, are not really anymore relevant in our days. Therefore the discussion about those historical incorporations is purely academic (which doesn't mean it is not an interesting thing to do) but ultimately such "great" or "big" people don't really exist and presumably never existed and are idealist images of hope that such external institutions would exist anywhere (or romantic version of it, assuming that they might have existed any time in the past). In the context of this it is interesting that the gender of such images in the literature are most of the time men rather than women. This should make anyone with brain and heart in the right place suspicious in the first place. So, be a great person and believe in your own ability to be exactly that in your own right. It is as simple as that! No hidden meaning at all but only mountains of literature about it.

 

[sooo]

I agree with everything Prem says in that video lesson.

I see no contradiction with the Yj.

Good thing Luis is a pool boy, he can dive in and wash that mud right off. chuckle

 

[Sparhawk]

I agree with everything Prem says in that video lesson.

I see no contradiction with the Yj.

None whatsoever. But then you get the ones that want to be more papist than the Pope and his "real" message gets tarnished.

Good thing Luis is a pool boy, he can dive in and wash that mud right off. chuckle

Just allow the water to filter for a couple of days after I get out...

 

[rosada]

Namaste.

The great man in me greets the great man in you.

rosada

 

[sooo]

None whatsoever. But then you get the ones that want to be more papist than the Pope and his "real" message gets tarnished.

Dig that. Always the way it is though, isn't it? Whose teaching can become popular and remain untarnished by its followers? Particularly with naturally charismatic spiritual teachers. There was only one moment in the video where I perceived that quick paradigm shift occur, arousing suspicion. I've seen it before in rare charismatic spiritual teachers of various origins, but it was passing, as though he caught his own fox by the tail. That, to me, was admirable.

The most hostile people I've ever encountered, when resiting their message wholesale, were the Krishna Consciousness Movement cult. Religion is a blood and guts business. Easily the most violent human force on earth.

Surprisingly, the Moonies left with only the implication that you've changed your tune regarding your claims of seeking an ideal world.

 

[bradford]

I think I have to take exception to interpretations that put "the great man" within us, as some kind of higher self that is already possessed of some higher truth. We have enough of that going on and it really gets in the way of our growth. I think the Yi is saying to not be so narcissistic and full of yourself for a change and go look for somebody in the real world who is better than you are. And if you can't find one of those then you really have problems.

 

[heylise]

Sometimes I 'know' I have to look for one outside myself, sometimes that he/she sits inside. And sometimes I cannot figure out which one is meant, so to be sure I look everywhere. Depends on the question, the reading, the time, whatever.