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Kuei Ts'ang and Fu Shi

lienshan

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The first "Book of Changes" is explained in tread Lien Shan. The second Book of Change Kuei Ts'ang was a real book:

Books were invented in China ca. 1150 BC in late Shang Dynasty. They were bamboo slips fastend with thongs. Some clever Shang diviner wrote the first Book of Changes by reverting the Lien Shan oracle and changing the coloured trigrams into black hexagrams more suited for writing. Evidence: only few hexagrams are found on oracle bones and
only on late Shang bones. No earlier evidence of hexagrams have been recorded.

Kuei Ts'ang means "Reverting to the Hidden". "The Hidden" was the ancient name of Thunder in more old cultures.
The last Kua in Kuei Ts'ang was I Ching 24 Fu Return, but the Kuei Ts'ang number of the hexagram was 65. The first Kua was I Ching 2 K'un The Receptive and it was too the Kuei Ts'ang number 2.

This was explained on some bamboo slips belonging to the hexagram slips and these original texts of Kuei Ts'ang have survived in Shuo Kua. I'm not quite sure, but only these words look original to me:

- In ancient times the Holy Sages made the Changes thus:
- They invented the Yarrowstalk Oracle in order to lend aid in a mysterious way to the light of the Gods. To Earth they assigned the number two and to Heaven the number three. From these they computed the other numbers.
- They contemplated the changes in the dark and the light and established the hexagrams in accordance with them. They brought about movements in the yielding and the firm, and thus produced the individual lines.
- The forces of Lake and Mountain are united.
- Water and Fire do not combat each other.
- Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
- Earth and Heaven determine the direction
Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
This is why the Changes has backward-moving numbers.

The clever Shang diviner too reverted the trigrams, so the Fu Shi order of the trigrams was invented ca. 1150 BC. The original Lien Shan order of the hexagrams is the PaKua seen from the outside while the Fu Shi order is seen from the inside. The difference is, that trigram Water and Fire shift place in the astronomical order.

Wilhelm mentioned, that the trigrams original meant the wet and the dry. This means, that the 4 trigrams with broken topline are wet (waxing moon/waning sun ) Earth, Thunder, Water, Lake, and the 4 trigrams with whole topline are dry (waning moon/waxing sun) Heaven, Wind, Fire, Mountain.

Kuei Ts'ang was one single book kept in the library of the Shang Court. When the Chou king Wen conquered the Shang capitol, he loosend the thongs, placed 3 Heaven before 2 Earth, mixed the other slips, and fastened the thongs again. The belief of the Chou was Tengri shamanic. Shan Tengri (Blue Sky) was their primary God and second was the goddess Umei (Earth).
 

sparhawk

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Just to help find references to these works, here is the Pinyin transliteration. The titles were given in Wade-Giles.

Kuei Ts'ang = Guicang (or Guizang)

Lien Shan = Lianshan

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lienshan

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Hi sparhawk

Xia Dynasty ended about 1600 BC
Books / Bamboo slips were invented about 1150 BC
Your link with divination on slips date much later

Until 10 years ago Xia Dynasty was only a legend. Edward Shaughnessy is talking about three divination methods of whom two of them have borrowed their names from the legendary two first editions of The Book of Changes, Lien Shan and Kuei Ts'ang. He is talking of divination methods and not of the two pre I Ching editions.

I'm talking about the two pre I Ching editions, an oracle and a book. My primary source is Shuo Kua of I Ching: to Heaven they assigned the number three and to Earth the two. From these they computed the other numbers ... this is why The Book of Changes have backward moving numbers.

I'm talking facts and math. Everyone of You can count the order shown of the hexagrams.
 

sparhawk

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Hi Lienshan

I'm talking about the two pre I Ching editions, an oracle and a book. My primary source is Shuo Kua of I Ching: to Heaven they assigned the number three and to Earth the two. From these they computed the other numbers ... this is why The Book of Changes have backward moving numbers.

I'm talking facts and math. Everyone of You can count the order shown of the hexagrams.
So, if I understand this right, what you are presenting here and in the other thread, are your own meditations and conclusions based on the text of the Shuogua?

L
 

lienshan

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Yes sparhawk :)

I've studied shamanism, antrolopogy, archaeology, biology, physics, quarks/gluon, etc. etc. and what I've posted here is the current result of my research. I know that others like me are studying the pre I Ching Yarrowstalk oracle and I hope to help them with my postings.

As Wilhelm mentioned: the trigrams have non-chinese names and I have found where they came from, but I only want to post the math of the hexagrams, because then all can count if my theories are right or wrong?

I Ching has 6 changing lines because I Ching has no math structure
Lien Shan and Kuei Ts'ang have only one, the 6th, general changing line, because they have a math structure related to the sun and the moon. That's the difference.
 

sparhawk

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Aha. Thanks.

Yes, I'm one of those. What do you make of the fact that it appears, that in some traditions, the changing lines in the Lianshan and Guizang were the 7ths and 8ths?

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hmesker

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the trigrams have non-chinese names and I have found where they came from, but I only want to post the math of the hexagrams, because then all can count if my theories are right or wrong?
Too bad, I am more interested in the names of the trigrams than in maths. I have a paper by Julie Lee Wei, "The Names of the Yi Jing Trigrams: An Inquiry Into Their Linguistic Origins" (Sino-Platonic Papers No. 161, September 2005) in which she links the pronunciation of the names to similar words in Indo-European languages like Welsh, Gaelic or Irish. It is fascinating material, but she uses the Confucianist meanings of the trigrams, instead of the more older ones. That makes me doubt the validity of her assumptions.

Anyway, I am interested in your findings about the trigrams, but I doubt if you can back them up with facts and sources. Too often have I seen that a Zhouyista came up with fancy theories which later on proved nothing more to be than - well, fanciness. You have posted your idea's about the Lianshan earlier on several forums but never gave sources and motivations, only vague theories which were presented partly. I wonder if anything has changed.

Harmen.
 

sparhawk

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:rofl:
 

lienshan

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Too bad, I am more interested in the names of the trigrams than in maths. I have a paper by Julie Lee Wei, "The Names of the Yi Jing Trigrams: An Inquiry Into Their Linguistic Origins" (Sino-Platonic Papers No. 161, September 2005) in which she links the pronunciation of the names to similar words in Indo-European languages like Welsh, Gaelic or Irish.

Harmen.
I do not know Julie Lee Wei, but the earliest record of the ancient Oracle in my research is from southern Great Brittain dating ca. 2600 BC. English archaeologists are digging the rigth place at the moment so maybe we will get some usefull answers this authum?
 
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hmesker

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the earliest record of the ancient Oracle in my research is from southern Great Brittain dating ca. 2600 BC. English archaeologists are digging the rigth place at the moment so maybe we will get some usefull answers this authum?
I don't know, you tell me. Show me your research, show me some facts, instead of just some wild statements. Where can I check your findings?

Harmen.
 
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bruce_g

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That's true. If Harmen just wanted wild statements he'd read the threads at Clarity.

snickering..
 
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bruce_g

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Harmen, I can't even imagine what this place must do to the heads of the likes of Brad, Lindsay or yourself. Do be careful, it'd be a shame if you pulled out all that spiky blond hair!
 

lienshan

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I am a diviner not a scientist. I do my research to make better predictions.

Wild statements? I've just shown You the 64 Kua in the original order to be counted both foreward from 1 to 64 and backwards from 2 to 65. The two different ways of counting show, that RNA/DNA is counted from either conventional
5' to 3' or from the 3' to 5' end. This means, that the structure of RNA/DNA is exactly like the interaction of the earth, the moon and the sun as observed by the sages thousands of years ago and exactly as told in the Shuo Kua of I Ching.

30. january 2007 archeaologists found the village of the people that build Stonehenge I. The ancient Oracle had 56 Kua with different colour and shape plus 8 Kua with matching colour and shape (I Ching no. 1 - 2 - 29 - 30 - 51 - 52 - 57 - 58). Try placing these 8 as totem poles in a smaller circle inside the big circle of 56 aubreyholes. Until today no one has been able to explain the use of Stonehenge I, but try compare with the structure of Lien Shan?

The facts are down under them big stones, that have been placed upon the eight holes in the middle of Stonehenge. There You can check my findings :)
 
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hmesker

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I am a diviner not a scientist. I do my research to make better predictions.
Ah, that explains it all, I guess.

Wild statements? I've just shown You the 64 Kua in the original order to be counted both foreward from 1 to 64 and backwards from 2 to 65.
No, you haven't. You only have given some wild ideas without proper backup. I mean, you say things like "Some clever Shang diviner wrote the first Book of Changes by reverting the Lien Shan oracle and changing the coloured trigrams into black hexagrams more suited for writing", " The clever Shang diviner too reverted the trigrams, so the Fu Shi order of the trigrams was invented ca. 1150 BC." and "Kuei Ts'ang was one single book kept in the library of the Shang Court. When the Chou king Wen conquered the Shang capitol, he loosend the thongs, placed 3 Heaven before 2 Earth, mixed the other slips, and fastened the thongs again", but nowhere do you explain or motivate what you say. It seems you have a vivid imagination but really do not have sources which validate your assumptions.

30. january 2007 archeaologists found the village of the people that build Stonehenge I. The ancient Oracle had 56 Kua with different colour and shape plus 8 Kua with matching colour and shape (I Ching no. 1 - 2 - 29 - 30 - 51 - 52 - 57 - 58). Try placing these 8 as totem poles in a smaller circle inside the big circle of 56 aubreyholes. Until today no one has been able to explain the use of Stonehenge I, but try compare with the structure of Lien Shan?
But what do we know about the Lianshan? Nothing, only that it started with with hexagram 52. And where can I read about this 'village of the people that build Stonehenge', and how is this linked to the Lianshan?

The facts are down under them big stones, that have been placed upon the eight holes in the middle of Stonehenge. There You can check my findings :)
No, I can't. Because you give me nothing but wild guesses. You don't give your sources, you don't tell how you derived at your conclusions, you are just giving wild statements. Or I must be stupid and fail to see any connection between what you say and what we know.

Harmen.
 
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hmesker

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Harmen, I can't even imagine what this place must do to the heads of the likes of Brad, Lindsay or yourself. Do be careful, it'd be a shame if you pulled out all that spiky blond hair!
Ah well, Bruce, It is just fun, that is all what I can say about it. I can't take it all too seriously.

Harmen.
 
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lightofreason

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I Ching has 6 changing lines because I Ching has no math structure
bollocks.

The natural self-referencing of yin/yang equates with the dynamics of the binomial theorem ( (A+B)^n)

THAT theorem maps to Pascal's triangle and mapsto the Sierpinski gasket. The gasket stems from the chaos game - the containment of noise elicits order through self-referencing. Regardless of scale.

Perhaps you would like to see the wave structure of he I ching? and so more association with maths etc?

see:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveStructure.html
and in general
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmaths.html

The I Ching is a metaphor, as is Mathematics, as is Quantum Mechanics etc etc etc, all due to how our brains deal with symmetry breaking and symmetry breaking.

The ancient material is specialist and so limited in what it covers and tries to explain were the ancients had no idea what they were dealing with and so described all by rich metaphor to local history/legend/myth.

There is a LOT more under the hood of the I Ching but to understand it you have to focus on self-referencing.

Chris.
 

lienshan

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Hi lightofreason (and others)

My primary source is I Ching / Shuo Kua:

To Heaven they assigned the number three and to Earth the number two.
From these they computed the other numbers.

I have shown You that the 64 hexagrams are 64 numbers from 2 to 65
starting with Earth counted as two and Heaven counted as three.

It's your counting method that isn't described in I Ching ... show me 0 and 1 in Shuo Kua ???

I am talking about Lien Shan and Kuei Ts'ang. You are defending I Ching? The Book of Changes is not only I Ching.
I Ching is only the third Chou edition. And it's a fact that the Duke of Chou later on changed the very first edition.
 

sparhawk

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Hi Lienshan,

I'm glad your reply to the other thread was that you didn't claim to have hermetic knowledge. Those claims always prickle my skin first and then the allergy turns to laughter. Quite painful on the ribs... :D

I'm sorry but I must concur with Harmen here. I mean, anybody can have their own thoughts and conclusions about the Yijing and other related works but, when assertions are made, to be taken seriously, they must be backed up with sources and materials that other peers can peruse and study and then drawn their own conclusions, either in agreement or against. It is only fair and that's the way serious journals and publications work. They are littered with details and bibliographical references. It is the only way to follow the train-of-thought of the author.

Take Chris here, for example. The man sticks out because of his theories but he can also bury you with references (mostly to his site but within the site you'll find more references) You may agree or not with him but at least he has a better fighting chance to support his claims.

What you offer is interesting and colorful, and you may fully believe it, but, as presented, doesn't travel farther than yourself.

L
 

lienshan

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What you offer is interesting and colorful, and you may fully believe it,
but, as presented, doesn't travel farther than yourself.
Bulls Eye, sparhawk :)

I do my research to make better predictions but I am willing to share:

The Lien Shan Oracle was a great legend in ancient China. Why? Because Yü used it to control the dangerous Yellow River. That´s why my research all the time has been concentrated on a system of symbols, that could predict the time of tide!

The 4 horisontal rows of symbols are numbers in a mathematical correct order from 1 to 64 and backwards from 2 to 65.

The vertical 16 columns show from top and down: sunrise, morning, noon, day, and next column: afternoon, evening, sunset, night. All in all eigth columns showing time of eight days.

The vertical 16 columns show backwards from bottom to top: new moon, waxing crecent, first quarter, waxing gibbous, and next column from bottom: full moon, waning gibbous, last quarter, waning crecent. All in all eight columns showing the phases of the moon in eigth months.

The simple users manual: every phase of the moon, tide arrives a "phase of the day" earlier in the day.

Today fishermen use tide tables printed in the newspapers etc. but in ancient times? Lien Shan was a great legend in China. What did they use in the ancient Nile culture? And how did they do in ancient Great Britain near by the coast, where the difference between the tides are 12 to 15 m?

I Ching / Shuo Kua:

Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
This is why the Book of Change has backward-moving numbers.
 
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lightofreason

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Hi lightofreason (and others)

My primary source is I Ching / Shuo Kua:

To Heaven they assigned the number three and to Earth the number two.
From these they computed the other numbers.

I have shown You that the 64 hexagrams are 64 numbers from 2 to 65
starting with Earth counted as two and Heaven counted as three.

It's your counting method that isn't described in I Ching ... show me 0 and 1 in Shuo Kua ???

I am talking about Lien Shan and Kuei Ts'ang. You are defending I Ching? The Book of Changes is not only I Ching.
I Ching is only the third Chou edition. And it's a fact that the Duke of Chou later on changed the very first edition.
Very limiting.

My work is on the billions of I Chings possible given each person on the planet writing one- and how, despite the differences, a common thread will emerge for all hexagrams due to the ONE set of basic categories being used to represent 'all there is'.

See my old page http://members.ozemail.com.au/~ddiamond/onemany.html

OR the IDM material covering brain dynamics that seed the formal categories of meaning for the I Ching

(http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/newindex.html )

Chris.
 

lienshan

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Hi lightofreason

Very limiting? I checked your sites and arrived at this one:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/MBTIX.htm#APPENDIXA

The eight personality types were invented by C.G. Jung inspired from the eight trigrams,
but they didn't work because he used the Kuei Ts'ang order of the trigrams.

::: :II III :I: I:: ::I II: I:I the I Ching order of the 8 trigrams
::: ::I I:I :II III II: :I: I:: the Kuei Ts'ang order of the 8 trigrams
::: ::I :I: :II III II: I:I I:: the Lien Shan order of the 8 trigrams

In the C.G. Jung system the first (top) line was either broken (introverted) or whole (extraverted)
The second (middle) line was either broken (feeling) or whole (thinking)
The third (bottom) line was either broken (intuition) or whole (sensing)

The eight personality types work together with the Lien Shan order, if You define the first (top) line like this:

broken line is dominant irrationel function (either intuition or sensing)
whole line is dominant rationel function (either feeling or thinking)

Why? Put in short: modern science has prooved, that introverted is much bloodsteaming of thalamus and extraverted is less bloodstreaming of thalamus. Modern science has prooved, that one of the four functions needs hundred times less energy to solve a problem than the three other functions. Which one is inherited and is what differ us in mainly eight personality types: feeling, thinking, intuition and sensing types, with a preferred secondary function.

I'm like many diviners an intuition type with secondary thinking funktion (trigram :I: Water) :)
 
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lightofreason

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Hi lightofreason

Very limiting? I checked your sites and arrived at this one:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/MBTIX.htm#APPENDIXA

The eight personality types were invented by C.G. Jung inspired from the eight trigrams,
Rubbish. Jung used THREE dichotomies, two covering categories of structure (Thinking/Feeling, Sensing/Intuiting) and one covering a function (Introvert/Extravert). These dichotomies came out of analysis of the psyche and overall persona and formed aspects of Analytical Psychology.

Myers and Briggs then came up with the third dichotomy of structure, Perceiving/Judging.

The IDM focus is on STRUCTURE and so the I/E dichotomy, covering a process, does not come into the picture until level 4 (and so 16 types) and so my use of X - e.g. XNTP or XSTJ etc etc to give the 8 types then extended into 64, 4096, 13+million etc etc

A cognitive analysis of the eight categories of the MBTI from XNFP to XSTP reflect direct association with the binary order of the trigrams. The full details on the MBTI, I Ching, and IDM are not presented at my website as I was asked to withdraw them by the publishers of the MBTI but you can get a vague idea from the above as you can from the diagram http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/DIAG1.gif

and the XOR related table:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/type.html

I suggest you also consider the trigram pages:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t1.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t2.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t3.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t4.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t5.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t6.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t7.html
http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/lofting/t8.html

The focus is on the isomorphism across the different dichotomy-derived specialisations. We are not interested in any theory, or 'logical' perspective, but on cognitive analysis. When doing so the FEELINGS associated map qualities of trigrams to qualities of personas represented as:

earth - XNFP
mountain - XNFJ
water - XSFJ
wind - XSTJ
thunder - XNTP
fire - XNTJ
lake - XSFP
heaven - XSTP

The DIGRAMS then map to temperaments:

NF - SJ - NT - SP

yin/yin - yang/yin - yin/yang - yang/yang

Where these correlate with Keirsey etc and cover the temperaments of identity seeking, security seeking, solution seeking, sensation seeking.

The correlation of these categories with the IDM categories is well covered and consistant - as they are when we introduce the fight/flight dichotomy to map out emotions that 'drive' personas (http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/emote.html ) - these also come out in the Emotional I Ching material that works well:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/EmotionalIC.html

.... continued in next post...
 
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lightofreason

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lienshan said:
In the C.G. Jung system the first (top) line was either broken (introverted) or whole (extraverted)
The second (middle) line was either broken (feeling) or whole (thinking)
The third (bottom) line was either broken (intuition) or whole (sensing)
.

No. Your are getting confused with the dichotomies and especially the I/E. You can mix them like this but you will not get precision due to them leaving out P/J and including I/E and then focusing on lines etc etc. where that is too specialist.

To get isomorphism across I Ching, MBTI, HBDI, emotions, etc requires mapping out the self-referencing in each and then a comparative analysis, cognitive analysis, brings out the samness. If you try some formal focus then you will force local logic and that will elicit failure (e..g. the cognitive error in mapping I/E dichotomy etc, the focus is on the QUALITIES expressed regardless of any line symbolisms)

Your science is misleading you in covering the source of meaning where it is oscillations across the dichotomies that elicit meaning. Blood flow covers issues of novelty vs known and so expending energy vs conserving it and they fall into the bounds WITHIN the oscillations.

Thus at 2^3 we can jump to 2^6 through applying the eight to each other to flesh out more details. We can then do it again going from 2^6 to 2^12. This is called hyperbolic development and acts to conserve energy over the long term, 'jump' in developments over the short term.

Your association of intuitive type with secondary thinking as water is false. The NT type maps to the digram that develops into thunder/fire with NTP going to thunder and NTJ to fire. Look carefully at the MBTI/I Ching associations given before - it is COGNITIVE and so ignores local logic to bring out patterns that span disciplines. Your perspective indicates trying to 'fit' local logic as if universal. Error. ;-)

Also see the diagram I referenced in the previous post.

The Emotional I Ching work validates the approach, as does the XOR work on hexagrams showing the entanglements.

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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An ESSENTIAL point to understand in the context of deriving meaning is in the general-to-particular nature of each of the three to six dichotomies used.

The labels dont matter, it is the order that matters and so the hierarchy. We see this work in the wave model where the hierarchy is in the form of each line position representing a wave twice the frequency (and so operating WITHIN) that of the previous.

see http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html

With this in mind so the hierarchy of the MBTI goes:

NF / SP (yin/yang)

NF, SJ / NT, SP (digrams)

XNFP, XNFJ, XSFJ, XSTJ, XNTP, XNTJ, XSFP, XSTP (trigrams)

The generic form of persona is thus the proto-NF/proto-SP 'types' and we differentiate from there going general to particular (and so mapping the brain dealing with novelty).

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Hi lightofreason

http://psychclassics.yorku.ca/Jung/types.htm

To me it looks like C.G. Jung left out P/J and included I/E :)
Dont get distracted by the dogma - most have no idea how 'in here' deals with dichotomies and so come up with all sorts of variations!

As my previous email covered, it is not the labels that matter, it is the hierarchy. It moves general to particular such that ordering the MBTI in the manner I have with the I Ching, Mathematics, Emotions, Socio-economic categories, five-phase categories etc etc gives consistant meaning across all of them.

Some try to impose the MBTI types using the I/E as the base line. This will give you categories but will NOT span disciplines as my IDM work does. It is the spanning of disciplines that brings out the sameness across all of the differences. I can create my own little world with the four dichotomies of the MBTI in different orderings but they will not be isomorphic to the other categories in other disciplines; only the configurations I use make the meanings span disciplines and so show the underlying neurology at work.

Thus it is essential that the core, generic, dichotomy of the MBTI with the I Ching is the QUALITY of NF as yin and the QUALITY of ST as yang that serves as the first line. DONT confuse the TWO dichotomies present (N/S and F/T) trying to fit into one (yin/yang)with this - we are focusing on QUALITIES when we analyse and build from there. As such we map out the MBTI eight and work backwards to give the NF/ST qualities as the core dichotomy and so yin/yang.

Doing this gives us correlation, isomorphisms, of the dichotomies of different specialisations and so indicating the underlying sameness as our brains oscillate.

Chris.
 

lienshan

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Hi lightofreason

I prefer the dogma of C.G. Jung. From his foreword to the Richard Wilhelm translation of the Book of Changes:

"I am greatly indebted to Wilhelm for the light he has thrown upon the complicated problem of the I Ching, and for insight as regards its practical application as well. For more than thirty years I have interested myself in this oracle technique, or method of exploring the unconscious, for it has seemed to me of uncommon significance. I was already fairly familiar with the I Ching when I first met Wilhelm in the early nineteen twenties; he confirmed for me then what I already knew, and taught me many things more."

C.G. Jung is no holy cow to me, but I really like to read his thoughts. Wise and clever. Respect!
 
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lightofreason

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C.G. Jung is no holy cow to me, but I really like to read his thoughts. Wise and clever. Respect!
Sure - but also out of date and so one needs to understand the consequences of the methodology used to interpret reality. Jung wrote a lot but had to focus on expressions since he did not have access to essences as covered in neurosciences. His speculations were good but not definitive.

Science is an on-going endevour and so new work will replace old and so understandings of self, consciousness etc etc are dependent on empirical research. The IDM material brings out that work and how the IC can still 'make sense' even though the traditionalist view is 'out of date' ;-)

Chris.
 

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