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lienshan

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The 64 coloured trigrams are the original Yarrowstalk Oracle Lien Shan.

Counted => from 1 to 64 and reversed <= to 65 from 2 (counting rules below)

O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO . Ø Ø . OOO Ø Ø OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø
Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø OOO ØØØ O O ØØØ O O Ø Ø . OOO . Ø Ø OOO ØØØ . O O ØØØ O O
Ø Ø OOO ØØØ O O Ø Ø OOO ØØØ O O Ø Ø . OOO . ØØØ O O Ø Ø . OOO ØØØ O O
leu . glu . leu . asp arg . ala . arg . ala . ile . OCH MET tyr . ser . ser . arg . ser
CUU GAA CUG GAC CGU GCA CGG GCC AUU UAA AUG UAC AGU UCA AGG UCC

O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø
Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø OOO ØØØ O O ØØØ O O Ø Ø . OOO Ø Ø OOO ØØØ . O O ØØØ O O
O O ØØØ OOO Ø Ø O O ØØØ OOO Ø Ø O O . ØØØ OOO Ø Ø O O . ØØØ OOO Ø Ø
leu . glu . leu . asp arg . ala . arg . ala . ile . AMB ile . tyr . ser . ser . arg . ser
CUC GAG CUA GAU CGC GCG CGA GCU AUC UAG AUA UAU AGC UCG AGA UCU

O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø
O O ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø O O . ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø
Ø Ø OOO ØØØ O O Ø Ø OOO ØØØ O O Ø Ø . OOO ØØØ O O Ø Ø . OOO ØØØ O O
pro . gly . pro . gly his . val . gln . val . thr . OPA thr . cys . asn leu . lys . phe
CCU GGA CCG GGC CAU GUA CAG GUC ACU UGA ACG UGC AAU UUA AAG UUC

O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø
O O ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø O O . ØØØ O O ØØØ OOO . Ø Ø OOO Ø Ø
O O ØØØ OOO Ø Ø O O ØØØ OOO Ø Ø O O . ØØØ OOO Ø Ø O O . ØØØ OOO Ø Ø
pro . gly . pro . gly his . val . gln . val . thr . TRP . thr . cys asn leu . lys . phe
CCC GGG CCA GGU CAC GUG CAA GUU ACC UGG ACA UGU AAC UUG AAA UUU

A ... = OOO .......... MET(HIONINE) = START
U/T = Ø Ø ............ OPA(L)......... = STOP
C ... = O O ........... AMB(ER) ....... = STOP
G ... = ØØØ .......... OCH(RE) ....... = STOP

A and U/T = 2 aromatic ringe ...... A and G. = 3 hydrogen bond
C and G .. = 1 aromatic ring ...... C and T/U = 2 hydrogen bond

"Isle of Flame rose from the Sea of Two Knives and created the first sunrise."
This is the creation legend of the Ogdoad. The Sea of Two Knives is the Lake Kua
in the first row and 1 of 3 STOP signals in the DNA code. Isle of Flame is the next
colour=Mountain/shape=Fire Kua and the only START signal in the DNA code.

- In ancient times the Holy Sages made the Book of Changes thus:
- They invented the Yarrowstalk Oracle in order to lend aid in a mysterious way to the light of the Gods. To Earth they assigned the number two and to Heaven the number three. From these they computed the other numbers.
- They contemplated the changes in the dark and the light and established the hexagrams in accordance with them. They brought about movements in the yielding and the firm, and thus produced the individual lines.

- The forces of Lake and Mountain are united.
- Water and Fire do not combat each other.
- Thunder and Wind arouse each other.
- Earth and Heaven determine the direction

Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
This is why the Book of Changes has backward-moving numbers.

The first Kua is colour=Mountain/shape=Earth ... counting rules:

colour: first (6th line) line is either dark=2 or light = 1
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if equal to and 0 if different from first line.

O O = 1 Ø Ø = 2
Ø Ø = 0 Ø Ø = 32 colour trigram = upper trigram of a hexagram
Ø Ø = 0 Ø Ø = 16
Ø Ø = 0 Ø Ø = 8
Ø Ø = 0 Ø Ø = 4 shape trigram = lower trigram of a hexagram
Ø Ø = 0 Ø Ø = 2

shape: first (6th line) line is either broken=2 or whole = 3
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if different from and 0 if equal to first line.

O O = 3 . Ø Ø = 2
Ø Ø = 32 Ø Ø = 0 colour trigram = upper trigram of a hexagram
Ø Ø = 16 Ø Ø = 0
Ø Ø = 8 . Ø Ø = 0
Ø Ø = 4 . Ø Ø = 0 shape trigram = lower trigram of a hexagram
Ø Ø = 2 . Ø Ø = 0

The colour trigrams show vertical down the eight phases of the day.
The shape trigrams show vertical up the eight phases of the moon.

Lien Shan was e.g. used for predicting the time of tide.
 

sparhawk

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Hi there,

Interesting.

Sources, please.

L
 

lienshan

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Hi sparhawk

Sources? It's an Oracle that was a secret even to Confucius, so "normal" sources are very hard to find. It's a puzzle with a lot of missing links. What helped me most was to find out, why the Kua Mountain was first in Lien Shan according to Wilhelm. So I tell You a little about the related source called The Ogdoad:

The Ogdoad means the eight primeval forces of Khmun from about 2350 BC to 2040 BC and they are in many ways similar to the eight trigrams. 4 of them had frogheads (broken topline) and 4 had snakeheads (whole topline):

Nun - Naunet = primeval waters (Mountain - Lake)
Heh - Hauhet = infinite space (Water - Fire)
Amun - Amaunet = invisible (Thunder - Wind)
Kek - Kauket = darkness (Heaven - Earth)

They are first mentioned in 2350BC - 2345 BC pyramid texts § 446:

"You have your offering-bread, O Niu and Nenet, you two protectors(?) of the gods Who protect the gods with your shadow.
You have your offering-bread, O Amun and Amaunet, you two protectors(?) of the gods Who protect the gods with your shadow.
You have your offering-bread, O Atum and Ruti, Who yourselves created your godheads and your persons.
O Shu and Tefenet who made the gods, Who begot the gods and established the gods"

Most of the Ogdoad believers were slaves from asia and they had to flee back when the pharaos gained control again in 2040 BC and all Ogdoad temples were destroyed.
 

sparhawk

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Hi there,

Lienshan said:
Sources? It's an Oracle that was a secret even to Confucius, so "normal" sources are very hard to find. It's a puzzle with a lot of missing links.
Interesting connection, to say the least. I remember reading about such theories in "The Chinese Pakua, an exposé" by Ong Hean-Tatt. Now, tell me, do you claim to have secret, orally transmitted knowledge? In the other thread you claim to be a diviner. I just wonder if you believe to have hermetic knowledge relating the Yijing.


Luis
 

lienshan

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no

I use facts but look as a diviner at facts with other eyes than scientists:

The Wet and the Dry mentioned by Wilhelm give the 8 trigrams the following egyptian explanation:

Heaven = dry, shore, earth .................. Earth = wet, sea, water
Wind = dry, northern wind, rain below .... Thunder = wet, thunder, rain above
Fire = dry, fire, look floating inside ........ Water = wet, maybe air regarded as floating?
Mountain = dry, island, ground on water .. Lake = wet, lake, water on ground

I look at the Wet and the Dry like a visual Yin and Yang philosophy of eight elements.
Each element is a combination of broken lines (wet) and whole lines (dry) in a trigram.

My only problem is the meaning of the trigram Water, which is the dry inside the wet? The complementary Fire is
wet glowing ("floating lava") inside a dry fire and they are both in this visual philosophy defined as infinite space.
What element is dry inside wet?
 
L

lightofreason

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I use facts but look as a diviner at facts with other eyes than scientists:

The Wet and the Dry mentioned by Wilhelm give the 8 trigrams the following egyptian explanation:

Heaven = dry, shore, earth .................. Earth = wet, sea, water
Wind = dry, northern wind, rain below .... Thunder = wet, thunder, rain above
Fire = dry, fire, look floating inside ........ Water = wet, maybe air regarded as floating?
Mountain = dry, island, ground on water .. Lake = wet, lake, water on ground

I look at the Wet and the Dry like a visual Yin and Yang philosophy of eight elements.
Each element is a combination of broken lines (wet) and whole lines (dry) in a trigram.

My only problem is the meaning of the trigram Water, which is the dry inside the wet? The complementary Fire is
wet glowing ("floating lava") inside a dry fire and they are both in this visual philosophy defined as infinite space.
What element is dry inside wet?
The above is more expression rather than essence.
THe roots of the trigrams stem from self-referencing yin/yang and THAT method is sourced in our brain's use of self-referencing to derive meaning.

At the core level of the neurology come generic categories expressed in trigram form as:

wholes, parts, sharing of space, sharing of time.

Thus we have:

wholeness through differentiating - heaven (expansive blending)
wholeness through integrating - earth (contractive blending)
partness through differentiating - fire (expansive bounding)
partness through integrating - water (contractive bounding)
sharing of space through differentiating - lake (expansive bonding)
sharing of space through integrating - mountain (contractive bonding)
sharing of time through differentiating - thunder (expansive binding)
sharing of time through integrating - wind (contractive binding)

ANYTHING or ANY PROCESS is covered b the above and their composite forms. IN the I ching this is through trigrams and hexagrams and dodecagrams.

The composite give us hexagrams and so different qualities for trigrams in lower position or upper position:

generic hexagam - lower - upper

heaven - perseverence - singlemindedness (perseverence doubled, trust in self)
earth - devotion - dual mindedness (absolute trust in another)
fire - guidance - direction setting (an ideology)
water - containment - control
lake - self-reflection - intense expression
mountain - self-restraint - discernment
thunder - enlightenment - awareness
wind - cultivation - becoming influencial

There is consistancy here from neuron to emotion to I Ching where we work with relabelling.

Chris.
 

getojack

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Thus we have:

wholeness through differentiating - heaven (expansive blending)
wholeness through integrating - earth (contractive blending)
partness through differentiating - fire (expansive bounding)
partness through integrating - water (contractive bounding)
sharing of space through differentiating - lake (expansive bonding)
sharing of space through integrating - mountain (contractive bonding)
sharing of time through differentiating - thunder (expansive binding)
sharing of time through integrating - wind (contractive binding)

ANYTHING or ANY PROCESS is covered b the above and their composite forms.
Thats a very bold statement. Can you back it up? For example, is a banana integrating or differentiating? Whole or part? (maybe it depends on if it's a whole or sliced banana?) Sharing of space or time? Which hexagram covers banana-ness? If a monkey is eating a banana, I would think that would be sharing of time and space through integrating, correct? So a monkey eating a banana is covered by the mountain and wind trigrams, right? Unless it's a half-eaten banana... then it would be covered by partness through integrating... water trigram? And then the banana still on the tree must be covered the earth trigram? And a falling banana... heaven trigram?
 

sparhawk

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This thread has been officially hijacked... :rofl:

L
 

lienshan

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Hi Lightofreason

Your explanation is a modern explanation. I'm researching the ancient egypt explanation of a wet and dry philosophy as mentioned by Wilhelm. How did people define the Eight Forces 2300 BC. I'm trying to understand their way of thinking and esspecially their defining of the Force Heh corresponding to trigram Water course me trouble?

What of eight elements could be the the dry inside the wet ( :I: ) ?

You all sound so brilliant intelligent knowing anything, so prove your skills to me by answering this tricky question? :)
 

Trojina

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:rofl: I dig that banana man - don't slice him
 
L

lightofreason

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Thats a very bold statement. Can you back it up?

doing that for years - you just need to go through the references. See links at the bottom of http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/idm001.html

getojack said:
For example, is a banana integrating or differentiating? Whole or part?
an object and so (a) a whole and (b) a whole relation to a greater whole (the tree) etc etc etc - gets into issues of context.

getojack said:
(maybe it depends on if it's a whole or sliced banana?) Sharing of space or time?
since it is a three dimensional object (and so has depth) it covers both space and time. It is then context that selects the 'best fit' interpretation.

getojack said:
Which hexagram covers banana-ness?
no - "banana" is a label we call a noun and it is applied to a specific form of object associated with some context. Wholeness as differentiating is covered by heaven - thingness, singlemindedness etc - remove the label to get the object feel and then zoom in for local context meanings (as in the core nature of 'banana' etc)

getojack said:
If a monkey is eating a banana, I would think that would be sharing of time and space through integrating, correct?
object pulling in/allowing in an object relates to consumption (aka internal distribution) and so the sense of water. Issues of a boundary and what we allow in as we consume (and covers generic issues of rejection/rejecting, what we allow past some barrier. The broken down banana is then distributed in the form of nutrition throughout the body.

getojack said:
So a monkey eating a banana is covered by the mountain and wind trigrams, right?
more so water - a boundary focus that is contractive (integrating). if you include issues covering the age of the banana then wind can also be included with ITS focus on cultivation and time.

If, on the other hand, I am SHARING space then I am not digesting the banana. A marriage reflects sharing of space, a formal business contract more the sharing of time.
We can mix these into hexagrams made up of combinations of mountain, wind, thunder, and lake where the overall focus is on bonding.

getojack said:
Unless it's a half-eaten banana... then it would be covered by partness through integrating... water trigram?
That depends - if it is a week old half-eaten banana then comes issues of cultivation and so includes decay (e.g. hex 18).

getojack said:
And then the banana still on the tree must be covered the earth trigram?
depends on context - as an object it is stand alone, differentiated and so more yang, a blend. As an extension of the tree in the form of fruit etc then we get into sharing of space (this covers the seeds within the banana and the overall focus on replication etc) - a bond.

As an aging element it is covered with bind.
As a part it is covered with bound.

The template of meaning covers all POSSIBLE meanings and local context then decides the best fit.

getojack said:
And a falling banana... heaven trigram?
[/quote]
Now your just being fasecious (or more so have tried to be all the way through but overall have just shown your ignorance ;-))
 
L

lightofreason

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Hi Lightofreason

Your explanation is a modern explanation. I'm researching the ancient egypt explanation of a wet and dry philosophy as mentioned by Wilhelm. How did people define the Eight Forces 2300 BC. I'm trying to understand their way of thinking
Their specialist way of thinking, their 'small world network' would be derived from exposure to local context of their genetically-determined neurology where the exposure elicited customisation.

lienshan said:
and esspecially their defining of the Force Heh corresponding to trigram Water course me trouble?

What of eight elements could be the the dry inside the wet ( :I: ) ?

You all sound so brilliant intelligent knowing anything, so prove your skills to me by answering this tricky question? :)
Water is contractive bounding and so an enclosure that keeps things in (or out). Emotionally it is covered by the emotion of rejection etc and overall covers containment and control (Containment doubled). The 'dry' inside the wet reflects keeping the powder dry through containment as the containment reflects the boundary (sides) of flow.

There is nothing 'modern' about the brain, in fact the neurology is older than the species. ANY explanations, no matter when created, stem from the ONE set of categories determined by the neurology. IGNORANCE of such will elicit all sorts of labels etc to try and describe 'all there is' but focusing only on expressions will fail to elicit understanding until you focus on essences.

The neurology is the essence of meaning - blending, bonding, bounding, and binding is THAT old - Consider:

Origins of nervous system found in genes of sea sponge

Scientists at the University of California, Santa Barbara have discovered significant clues to the evolutionary origins of the nervous system by studying the genome of a sea sponge, a member of a group considered to be among the most ancient of all animals.

The findings are published in the June 6 issue of the journal PLoS ONE, a Public Library of Science journal.

“It turns out that sponges, which lack nervous systems, have most of the genetic components of synapses,” said Todd Oakley, co-author and assistant professor in the Department of Ecology, Evolution and Marine Biology at UC Santa Barbara.

“Even more surprising is that the sponge proteins have ‘signatures’ indicating they probably interact with each other in a similar way to the proteins in synapses of humans and mice,” said Oakley. “This pushes back the origins of these genetic components of the nervous system to at or before the first animals –– much earlier than scientists had previously suspected.”

When analyzing something as complex as the nervous system, it is difficult to know where to begin, explained Ken Kosik, senior author and co-director of UCSB’s Neuroscience Research Institute, who holds the Harriman Chair in Neuroscience Research.

The first neurons and synapses appeared over 600 million years ago in “cnidarians,” creatures known today as hydra, sea anemones, and jellyfish. By contrast, sponges, the oldest known animal group with living representatives, have no neurons or synapses. They are very simple animals with no internal organs.

“We look at the evolutionary period between sponges and cnidarians as the period when the nervous system came into existence, about 600 million years ago,” said Kosik.

He explained that the research group made a list of all the genes expressed in a synapse in humans, since synapses epitomize the nervous system. Synapses are involved in cell communication, learning, and memory. Next, the researchers looked to see if any of the synapse genes were present in the sponge.

“That was when the surprise hit,” said Kosik. “We found a lot of genes to make a nervous system present in the sponge.” The research team also found evidence to show that these genes were working together in the sponge. The way two of the proteins interact, and their atomic structure, bear resemblance to the human nervous system.

“We found this mysterious unknown structure in the sponge, and it is clear that evolution was able to take this entire structure, and, with small modifications, direct its use toward a new function,” said Kosik. “Evolution can take these ‘off the shelf’ components and put them together in new and interesting ways.”

The article can be found at http://www.plosone.org/doi/pone.0000506.

Source: University of California - Santa Barbara http://www.physorg.com/news100317699.html
 

charly

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What of eight elements could be the the dry inside the wet ( :I: ) ?
You all sound so brilliant intelligent knowing anything, so prove your skills to me by answering this tricky question? :)
Again banana! Could be?:confused:

Charly
 

lienshan

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Water is contractive bounding and so an enclosure that keeps things in (or out). Emotionally it is covered by the emotion of rejection etc and overall covers containment and control (Containment doubled). The 'dry' inside the wet reflects keeping the powder dry through containment as the containment reflects the boundary (sides) of flow.
Your "Containment doubled" point at the center of the problem: The diviner/Wen too had problems defining "Water"
in hexagram 29. He named it "The Abysmal repeated" but doesn't use this "repeated" phrase to the other 7 hexagram
with equal top and bottom trigrams? "The Abysmal repeated" is in fact not a reading but only what everyone can see.

I have considered that :I: maybe was the ancient picture/symbol of ice in water?
 

RindaR

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My only problem is the meaning of the trigram Water, which is the dry inside the wet? The complementary Fire is
wet glowing ("floating lava") inside a dry fire and they are both in this visual philosophy defined as infinite space.
What element is dry inside wet?
Ice?

Ice is not wet until some kind of energy (fire?) is applied. Touch it with something of the same temperature and it remains dry/solid.

The clue was the molten form of rock, ice seems to correspond well as a solid earth-like form of water.

Rinda
 

sparhawk

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I'm starting to dislike bananas... :D

L
 
L

lightofreason

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Your "Containment doubled" point at the center of the problem: The diviner/Wen too had problems defining "Water"
in hexagram 29.
I dont. containment doesnt. You have been led astray ;-)

The contaiment acts to protect and so keep things in or out. Thus contaiment applies to keeping your powder dry as it applies to the banks of a river etc that contain the river and so controls flow.

The neurological focus is on contractive bounding as compared to expansive bounding. The bound brings out the notion of part in the form of a boundary, a cut, 'us from them', 'dry from wet, wet from dry'.

The difference between fire and water is in the nature of the boundary - the water boundary protects, is contractive to hold in/out. On the other hand the fire boundary expands, converting difference to sameness (all to ash) and so its association with an ideology, a sense of direction - but this ideology is always particular and so an aspect the whole. What the exapansion does for fire is bring out the emotion associated with fire - acceptance, to be 'one of us' and the 'gang' to grow, to expand and so exploit.

The IC+ material has no problem with water in Water or fire in Fire since it grounds it all in what comes out of our method to make categories.

... I forgot to add the five-phase associations that when converted to Western perspectives cover Water and Fire manifesting Distribution - internal (water) and external (fire) - and so the 'flow' vibe for both.

The ancients tried to understand all of this with no science of 'in here' etc and so used rich metaphor, and the mixing of such, to come up with their labels - but their work was never complete. Now we can extend the IC into the 21st century AD rather than struggle with the 10th century BC to AD since we understand the properties and methods of self-referencing, and, as such, dont even need to focus on Chinese, or Egyptians, or Stonehenge or persia etc etc. to get the gist of what is going on ;-) (and in fact the XOR material allows us to interrogate the IC directly and it tells us about itself.)


Chris.
 
L

lightofreason

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...and your DNA associations with IC? nothing new and in fact is an error of association in that the association is to the method used to derive the hexagrams - recursion of yin/yang - that is isomorphic to the method used to derive codons from the recursion of the pyramidine/purine dichotomy of molecular biology.

The IDM work covers this through its analysis of self-referencing and the resulting isomophism with other category systems derived from self-referencing.

How come all of this self-referencing? A basic -property of the containment of noise (at any scale) is the elicitation of order from self-referencing (gets into asymmetry/symmetry etc etc) - google "the chaos game".

Chris.
 

lienshan

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How come all of this self-referencing? A basic -property of the containment of noise (at any scale) is the elicitation of order from self-referencing (gets into asymmetry/symmetry etc etc) - google "the chaos game".
Hi lightofreason

It comes from the Richard Wilhelm translation of I Ching. He wrote in his foreword, that the original words of Earth and Heaven were the Wet and the Dry. He wrote in his foreword, that the pre-I Ching oracle was named Lien Shan with Kua Mountain first.

Would You advice Richard Wilhelm to google "the chaos game"?

Why don't You look at the order of hexagrams in numerical order starting with Kua Mountain first? The basic numbers are Earth = two and Heaven = three. Exactly as described in Shuo Kua with backwards-moving numbers.

Please tell me where this numerical order of the hexagrams differs from Shuo Kua?

PS. Thanks to getojack and rinda because You convinced me, that trigram Water is water, but in the meaning of
water = wet and ice = dry, so the complementary meaning of Water and Fire is too a matter of temperature.
 
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lightofreason

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Hi lightofreason

It comes from the Richard Wilhelm translation of I Ching. He wrote in his foreword, that the original words of Earth and Heaven were the Wet and the Dry. He wrote in his foreword, that the pre-I Ching oracle was named Lien Shan with Kua Mountain first.

Would You advice Richard Wilhelm to google "the chaos game"?
Yes - he would have learnt a lot about what was behind what he was dealing with.

lienshan said:
Why don't You look at the order of hexagrams in numerical order starting with Kua Mountain first? The basic numbers are Earth = two and Heaven = three. Exactly as described in Shuo Kua with backwards-moving numbers.
why dont you leave the 10th century BC mindset and move into the 21st century AD? consider the MANY sequences possible, and all meaningful, when one starts to understand what is behind the IC - e.g. sequences in:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/icmatrix.html

... and NO, the trigrams of Water and Fire are NOT solely about water and fire, they are about the boundary where they serve as sources of analogy to describe the dynamics of the boundary. You traditionalists really do need to move into the 21st century AD!

Chris
 

lienshan

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I::::: 01/65 :IIIII 02/64 I::::I 03/63 :IIII: 04/62 (+ 10 more Kua =>) I::III 15/51 :II::: 16/50
I:I::: 17/49 :I:III 18/48 I:I::I 19/47 :I:II: 20/46 (+ 10 more Kua =>) I:IIII 31/35 :I:::: 32/34
II:::: 33/33 ::IIII 34/32 II:::I 35/31 ::III: 36/30 (+ 10 more Kua =>) II:III 47/19 ::I::: 48/18
III::: 49/17 :::III 50/16 III::I 51/15 :::II: 52/14 (+ 10 more Kua =>) IIIIII 63/03 :::::: 64/02

Forewards colour counting: first (6th line) line is either broken = 2 or whole = 1
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if equal to first line and 0 if different from first line.

Backwards shape counting: first (6th line) line is either broken = 2 or whole = 3
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if different from first line and 0 if equal to first line.

ØØØ
OOO = :I:II: 20/46 (colour Water and shape Wind) example (colour = sun and shape = moon)
Ø .Ø

Hi lightofreason

I'm actually back in the 20th century Bc at the foot of Hua Shan, where the Xia dynasty developed before moving east
to the capitol Erlitou dating 1860 to 1545 BC. The counting above explains why Kua means both trigram and hexagram.
The counting above was possible to invent in late stone age / pre bronze age.

The Yarrowstalk Oracle named Lien Shan was a shamanic Oracle and look as so a little mysterious to 21th AD eyes, but the above is exactly as descibed in the Shuo Kua of I Ching with backwards-moving numbers.

How are the backward-moving numbers of I Ching explained in the hexagram order and matrix You are referring to?
 
L

lightofreason

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I::::: 01/65 :IIIII 02/64 I::::I 03/63 :IIII: 04/62 (+ 10 more Kua =>) I::III 15/51 :II::: 16/50
I:I::: 17/49 :I:III 18/48 I:I::I 19/47 :I:II: 20/46 (+ 10 more Kua =>) I:IIII 31/35 :I:::: 32/34
II:::: 33/33 ::IIII 34/32 II:::I 35/31 ::III: 36/30 (+ 10 more Kua =>) II:III 47/19 ::I::: 48/18
III::: 49/17 :::III 50/16 III::I 51/15 :::II: 52/14 (+ 10 more Kua =>) IIIIII 63/03 :::::: 64/02

Forewards colour counting: first (6th line) line is either broken = 2 or whole = 1
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if equal to first line and 0 if different from first line.

Backwards shape counting: first (6th line) line is either broken = 2 or whole = 3
Lines 5-4-3-2-1 are 32-16-8-4-2 if different from first line and 0 if equal to first line.

ØØØ
OOO = :I:II: 20/46 (colour Water and shape Wind) example (colour = sun and shape = moon)
Ø .Ø

.....

How are the backward-moving numbers of I Ching explained in the hexagram order and matrix You are referring to?
The above is not very clear, I suggest you put your thoughts up on a website for consideration and so add finer details, background, clear references etc.

That said, given the binary dynamics you appear to be trying to describe where one steps through a hexagram using self-referencing, I suggest you review:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/WaveInterpret.html

Each line position relates to a frequency of 1/2^n where n is the line number (1 to 6) and so we move from a cycle of 2 (2^1) to 64 (2^6) and add the cycles. Since the wave is sine in form so we cover two amplitudes, that above the line and that below the line and so yang/yin, actual/potential.

SInce 000000 represents potentials, so introducing yang acts to express potentials as actuals. Thus focus on the yang line nature allows for summing qualities:

e.g. hex 07 + 23 = 04 (in wave form this is 4 cps (line 2) + 64 cps (line 6) gives us a composite wave form bringing out the qualities of hex 04) - we can take the reverse as the opposite of 04 (49) with the emphasis on the yin aspects etc.

...and then you can go and consider the vertical/horizontal sequences covered in the matrix page I referred you to earlier. The focus being on rotations.

And you may find this one of interest in the context of working backwards:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/binhex.html

THEN focus on the XOR material to see how it is all entangled:

http://members.iimetro.com.au/~lofting/myweb/introXOR.html

IMHO Your 20th century BC mindset is 'dead' - too loaded with ancient metaphors etc. You need to move on, past the 10th century BC and into the 21st century AD (and so cover the wave interpretations, the XOR material etc etc where all that comes out of what is behind the I Ching - self-referencing ;-))

Chris.
 
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lightofreason

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Just to make the point, the BINARY sequence of the I Ching is the natural sequence. All others are derived from such.

If you take the binary sequence, call it the horizontal sequence, and rotate the hexagrams you get the vertical sequence associated with XOR/changing lines etc etc.
Given this, we can derive the horizontal sequence for all other hexagrams by deriving their vertical sequence and rotating it. This gives us the foundations for a 'logic of relationships' and that includes a sequence covering mountain-lake and in fact sequences for all hexagram pairs as opposites of varing degrees (all lines to one line).

Chris.
 

lienshan

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Hi Lightofreason

Sorry, if it isn't clear: each hexagram is a number

What makes hexagrams mysterious is, that the number of a hexagram has two values either conted by colour or by shape. The light and the dark. The firm and the yielding. Maybe this explanation helps:

Due to tradition we use 50 yarrowstalks but remove 1 yarrowstalk. Why?

Lien Shan was a shamanic calendar and yarrowstalks were used to count phases of the moon. One year is 99 phases of the moon. First one count 50, remove 1, and then count 49. Every 19th year the counting is corrected by 1 yarrowstalk.

Lien Shan was too the tide calendar of the Xia shamans: A year was divided into 11 months of 64 tides.

The trigram above (colour) shows 8 different times of the day.
The trigram below (shape) shows 8 different phases of the moon.

Every year the tide calendar is corrected by 1 tide.

The inscriptions on Shang oracle bones show a similar calendar system with two names, but due to chinese tradition each dynasty had their own calendar system.
 
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lightofreason

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Hi Lightofreason
.....
Due to tradition we use 50 yarrowstalks but remove 1 yarrowstalk. Why?

Lien Shan was a shamanic calendar and yarrowstalks were used to count phases of the moon. One year is 99 phases of the moon. First one count 50, remove 1, and then count 49. Every 19th year the counting is corrected by 1 yarrowstalk.

Lien Shan was too the tide calendar of the Xia shamans: A year was divided into 11 months of 64 tides.

The trigram above (colour) shows 8 different times of the day.
The trigram below (shape) shows 8 different phases of the moon.

Every year the tide calendar is corrected by 1 tide.

The inscriptions on Shang oracle bones show a similar calendar system with two names, but due to chinese tradition each dynasty had their own calendar system.
This is a specialist focus, a small world network focus. it is akin to mapping the 384 lines to the 13 month (384 days) calendar of the moon. The top/bottom mapping you present still reflects my comments on moving from the general to the particular, here expressed as the moon phase that defines a day, represented in trigrams and within that we have finer slices of the day also represented in trigrams. So what?

The I Ching is a language and so applicable to ANYTHING - I can make calendars out of it etc etc but in doing so you limit the full expression of the IC as a PARALLEL system and so more than just a SERIAL system.

There are three basic forms of interpretation of the IC hexagrams:

(1) As aspects of the whole - as such each hexagram expresses some aspect of the I Ching derived from context selecting such. This treats the IC as a face and each hexagram a facial expression (emotion). Since all of the muscles of the face contribute to each expression so all hexagrams contribute to each hexagram and we can get the full spectrum of a hexagram by using XORing. In other words we can get the IC to describe itself. There are no 'changing lines' in this - the focus is on identifying the full spectrum of meaning of a hexagram. The entanglment that comes with the self-referencing brings out symmetries etc.

(2) As a sequence of time. Plum Blossom method seems to use this (one changing line) and calendar systems use it (with your system focusing on trigrams rather than lines).
ONE changing line representing the current moment in the scale. This realm still needs review from the XOR to map out any self-referening present since we map sameness over time in the form of cycles but there is also the asymmetric in the form of the unique expression of some moment.

(3) A hierarchic mapping. Here we have the traditional perspectives with each line covering some level in the hierarchy and we can have multiple 'changing' lines reflecting the independent activity of the levels - and so the 'ruler' level of position 5 and the supervisor level of position 2 give us some hexagram with these lines changing manifesting issues with these levels and so a change in the expression of the whole etc etc. Change is described with each level operating independent of each other but contributing to the whole expression. This is a property of non-nested hierarchy and allows for the dealing with differences independently for each level. For example, hex 7 covers some expression of a hierarchy but the 'supervisor' and 'ruler' levels have issues and so all is expressed more like hex 20. This is interpretable as a 'change' in that if the issues for the levels become fixed then the full expression of things will be more 20 than 7 from then onwards.

A nested hierarchy interpretation brings in line dependencies on each other and so we span levels etc. The form of hierarchy is logical more than physical - there is trust since all information is known and so dependencies are allowed across levels and we can review the influences of line pair relationships etc. thus a changing line 2 can influence all other lines through relationship changes with some special focus on the 2-5 interactions (Line relationships come in two dominating forms of interpretations but other forms apply. The two forms are:

1-6
2-5
3-4

and

1-4
2-5
3-6


Our brain deals with the symmetric (samness foundation) the asymmetric (difference foundation) and the anti-symmetric aka hierarchic (and so the forms of hierarchy - nested/non-nested). All of these are representable by the IC.

Chris.
 

lienshan

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(2) As a sequence of time. Plum Blossom method seems to use this (one changing line) and calendar systems use it (with your system focusing on trigrams rather than lines).

The I Ching is a language and so applicable to ANYTHING - I can make calendars out of it etc etc but in doing so you limit the full expression of the IC as a PARALLEL system and so more than just a SERIAL system.

This is a specialist focus, a small world network focus. it is akin to mapping the 384 lines to the 13 month (384 days) calendar of the moon.
Hi lightofreason

Sorry that I have cut in my quotation of your posting, but it's only meant to point at the center of this thread:

My focusing on trigrams rather than lines is because the ancient chinese pictogram Changes (I or Yi) shows the sun above the moon.

I agree, that all kinds of systems can be made out of the 64 hexagrams. That's why my reconstruction of the legendary Lien Shan Yarrowstalk Oracle is 100% in accordance with the text of Shuo Kua: The 64 Kua were backwards-moving numbers.

The time of tide is moving backwards 50½ minutes a day. During the 29 1/2 day synodic period (the time between new moons) the moon will have made exactly one less revolution around the earth. So that there will be exactly two less tides during that period of time. Therefore, the tidal period (time between high tides) will equal. The difference between counting tides (trigrams) and counting 13 months (lines) is, that a tide calendar of 11 months is compatible with the sun (a year).

I have never seen any "I Ching expert" explain the backwards-moving numbers? How do You explain this Shuo Kua text:

Counting that which is going into the past depends on the forward movement.
Knowing that which is to come depends on the backward movement.
This is why the Book of Change has backwards-moving numbers.
 

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