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lines and resulting hexagram

bostonian

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I notice that many times the changing lines warn me about things that I already know or that it's not in my character to do. For example, it might warn me about bragging or trying to keep up with neighbors in terms of material things, neither of which is in my character to do. Do you think the oracle does that in order to give me the necessary changing lines to get me to resulting hex that it wants me to get to.

Occasionally, the opposite happens. The resulting hex warns me against doing something that i would never do anyway. (Or warns me to do something that i would do anyway). Do you think it might be doing that in order to give me the lines I need to see?
 
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bradford

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Sometimes this is how it works for me -
I ask a question and I get "person does X"
Sometimes it means "I do X", sometimes "person does X to me",
but maybe most often it's "an understanding of how and why
people do X is about to become really useful."

As to the "sacrifice lines", there only to get you to the Zhi Gua,
especially with multiple changing lines, I find that transitional
hexagrams make the most sense and are the least contradictory.
 

bradford

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When you have multiple changing lines you change the bottom line first
and read the next changing line in that new hexagram. You get to the
same final hexagram as before - you just take a more interesting route
and the line texts tend to make more sense.
 

bostonian

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So if, say, lines 2,3,4, and 5 are changing: I create a new hexagram by changing line 2. Then instead of reading line 3 in the original hexagram, I read it in that new hexagram?
 

bradford

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That's it. And keep going like that until you get to the same old Zhi Gua.
That doesn't stop you from doing it the old way too. Just see if it doesn't help,
and also get you out of the contradictory lines problem.
The theory is partly that the lines are a sequence in time from bottom to top,
and partly that each line was written with a single Zhi Gua in mind, so that the
transitional Zhi Gua will read like more logical step.
 
M

meng

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Retracting my statement. This isn't what I was doing. Will check it out though.
 
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M

maremaria

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Would be interesting to examine here one reading with these too different methods.
 
M

meng

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Bradster..

Asking a deliberately mundane prediction "What if I..." question.

The situation is this. I own a guitar, which I call "blue". It's a quality instrument and plays extremely well and sounds very good. However, I am going in a different direction, one which is well satisfied by what has become my #1. Now blue sits in a case for 90% of my playing time. So I'm considering putting it up for trade on a guitar gear forum I'm a member of, where I've bought and sold a number of items already. My question: What will result from trading blue?

54. 1,3,4 - 46.

So, checking your methodology: first read line 1. Then read line 3 of 40. And then line 4 of 32, which still winds up at 46. (?)

Interesting way to get there. hmh...

The marrying maiden as secondary wife. Lame yet able to walk. To set things right: auspicious.

Carrying a burden on the back and also riding a carriage. Inviting robbers to approach. Determination: distress.

Fields without wildfowl.

Man wants to go one step ahead of what he is. It gives satisfaction, self-confidence, and a purpose in life. It makes life exciting and full of promises.

I'll just say it speaks to me succinctly. But is this correct use of the transitional method?
 

bradford

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is this correct use of the transitional method?

Mechanically you done fine. It seemed to answer the question too.
You don't really read any more text this way - it's just a more
articulated story, more like a Tarot reading.
Did 54.3 and 54.4 make as much sense?
 
M

meng

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Let me offer my interpretation, just cuz.

The marrying maiden as secondary wife. Lame yet able to walk. To set things right: auspicious.

Carrying a burden on the back and also riding a carriage. Inviting robbers to approach. Determination: distress.

Fields without wildfowl.

Man wants to go one step ahead of what he is. It gives satisfaction, self-confidence, and a purpose in life. It makes life exciting and full of promises.

Blue is my secondary wife. To try to make a better second choice is auguring favorable circumstances. Good luck. (sarcasm?)

If you (me) really want to carry this thing around, exposing yourself to a possible ripoff, go right ahead, lose sleep over it if you want to.

There's nothing out there right now that will do a better job of second fiddle. And she is still first as what she does best. (ahem..)

Maybe the allotted time isn't now; what, with no game in the field. Upward with stratcat, and a place of honor for blue. :bows:
 
M

meng

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Brad, almost missed your reply.

This is very cool indeed. Thanks!
 
M

meng

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Did 54.3 and 54.4 make as much sense?

Yes, they mate naturally with the transitional method message.

I've also scanned other lines 3 and 4 to see if I'd find the same compatibility, randomly; trying to fool myself, and no dice. It's more than a line position thing.

Brad, what's the origin of this method?
 
M

meng

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:mischief: beginning to see what's happening here, like zig-zag relating lines, that end at the same place. It's perfectly natural. Feel like I got an early Holiday present.
 

bradford

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what's the origin of this method?

I don't know. In English, Mondo Secter and I seem to have discovered and published it at the same time in the mid-seventies. "Transitional Hexagrams" is Dr. Secter's term. I can't imagine that it doesn't have a history somewhere in the Chinese lore - it's just too obvious and natural. But I haven't come across it in Chinese - there's a good 3000 books there that I won't live to read.
The multiple changing line problem is a real pain in the ass, and solutions are all over the place, from Zhuxi's method to the big rewrite called the Yilin. The Yilin approach is a good idea, but the texts seems to lack most of the thought, care and experimentation that went into the Zhouyi"s Yao Ci. The transitional hexagrams method meets the need nicely and without much contrivance.
I've never thought to give it a Chinese name. Maybe 仲卦 zhong4 gua4, intermediate diagrams.
 
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meng

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While I generally don't struggle with multiple lines, I can see how this method could shift a line's context just enough to smooth out apparent contradictions.
 
M

maremaria

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Thank Meng for sharing your experiment.

I tried too !!! Btw, its was good timing , to me, Bostonian’s Q and Brad’s comments. Thank you both :)

The question is wide open, lol. It’s a reading I do on my b-day. This year was 22.1,2> 18.
Line 22.1 and hex 18 , till now makes sense and as a answer its pretty accurate, but line 22.2 still baffles me

Method #.1

22.1,2 >18
22.1 : He lends grace to his toes, leaves the carriage, and walks.
22.2 W/B Lends grace to the beard on his chin.
LiSe: Energetic in one's waiting-spell.

18 .WORK ON WHAT HAS BEEN SPOILED
Has supreme success. It furthers one to cross the great water. Before the starting point, three days. After the starting point, three days.


Method #.2

22.1 > 52.2 > 18
22.1 : He lends grace to his toes, leaves the carriage, and walks.
52.2 Keeping his calves still. He cannot rescue him whom he follows. His heart is not glad.
Bradford H. :Stilling those toes. Not helpful at one’s pursuit. One’s heart is not gratified.

18 .WORK ON WHAT HAS BEEN SPOILED Has supreme success. It furthers one to cross the great water. Before the starting point, three days. After the starting point, three days.

Well, haven’t study my reading thoroughly but it makes more sense and gives me a glimpse of what line 22.2 could mean.
So , a brief interpretation :
Yes, its time to work on what is spoiled and yes now, you can leave the carriage. You don’t need it anymore, you can walk, you can do it !! But be careful because even if it’s a good opportunity you can mess it up if you don’t keep a appropriate attitude. Feels like 52.2 grounds me a bit. :mischief:
 
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bostonian

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So should one decide ahead of time that that is how he will be reading the lines in order for the Oracle to know what results to present to him?
 

Sparhawk

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So should one decide ahead of time that that is how he will be reading the lines in order for the Oracle to know what results to present to him?

No, IMO, the Yi will not adjust the answer to accommodate the method of interpretation used by the querent. The querent, OTOH, should be able to choose and use the method that would give the clearest answer to his/her question. If an answer doesn't make immediate sense, try something else.
 
M

maremaria

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Bostonian, I had a similar query in my mind What if from tomorrow I decide to work on that method. I’ld have to leave out the lines that till now I used to read. What could be lost in that way?
I don’t think, imho, that I ought to make a deal with Yi on how I would process the answer. After all, I don’t know in advance how many changing lines or not I’ll be given. And what if a line that makes sense is one that has to be ommited? Do I have to ingore it or not ? Perhaps this method is just another approach to read and maybe it doesn’t affect the actual answer we are given.

It would be interesting to hear people that use this method opinions’.

Maria
 
M

maremaria

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lol, Luis. What a service !!! :D

6.40pm I ask for another opinion and 6.40 I rea it !!!
this forum becomes better and better :)
 

Sparhawk

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I strive to serve... :D
 

bradford

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I still use both the conventional and transitional methods because I think the new one merits more testing before it can be called tried and true.
 

fkegan

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Hi Bostonian and All,

There are various questions being raised, some about the Oracle and some about using the Oracle. The first origin of this thread was about the exact wording of an Oracle answer, why did the Yi counsel against things that weren't being considered. This is a question of expecting an ancient text through published wording to only use exactly the right terms and phrases for each person.

The text is about general counsel and symbolic situations which the individual consulting the Oracle is expected to consider rather than take exactly literally. However, there is the personal experience that one's Oracle's are exactly and literally speaking counsel to you personally. In that case, the increasing frequency of bits of the line text not fitting so exactly any more is an indication you are moving on to a more objective stage in your Oracle experience.

The method of transitional resultants is a step towards a structural approach to the Oracle. Each line is moved individually, eventually all the lines move and the same resultant hexagram is the final result. The transitional hexagrams offer a view of how each line is changing the situation. It is the equivalent of seeing how the Oracle would progress if only one changing line at a time were acting with the next only starting when the one before has fully changed.

Taken with a literal attitude to each word involved, this greatly increases the number of words expected to be addressed exactly and expressly to you. As this thread started in the circumstance that such an expectation wasn't working out so well, increasing the words involved may well increase the problem.

The ability of the Oracle to speak so exactly to each of us arises from the elegant simplicity of its symbolism expressing everything in its line structures and how they change. The words are a far less exact medium to convey meaning, which get less exact as the translations over the centuries change the words (and languages) used and the connotations we expect from those words as we read them.

It is difficult to imagine how the Yi itself would be able to listen to us and make changes in the toss of the coins or other method to fit our changed instructions or expectations. However, it is easy for each of us to make those changes in ourselves and in our interpretation of our Oracles.

We pose whatever question we choose and the Oracle responds with its answer. We use our own selected means to help us interpret that answer. We continue to cast the Oracle since we find our interpretations useful and insightful. The more we each take responsibility for our own interpretation, the easier the process becomes as WE each change and our needs or abilities change as well.

The Yi Oracle was never offering you advice that was out of character for you. It was making a symbolic answer in its four line values that other folks have tried to explain in terms of the words published in the various I Ching books. Personally, I have come to use mostly the lines themselves to interpret the Oracle (described in my website as the Flux Tome structural approach). That is a major departure from the perspective of reading the book with its translations of text and commentary.

Much of the commentary started off as interpretations for ancient Chinese Imperial Bureaucrats where any situation offering personal opportunity or responsibility was cause for counsel to beware the dangers of being seen as taking initiative. In your terms, they were speaking to the needs of other users millennia ago. How you adjust those words to your needs is a major part of your developing relationship with the Oracle.

At first we are each persuaded by the personal impact of our consulting the Oracle that this is a worthwhile thing to do. As you use the Oracle more, things change and it becomes time to find new attitudes and understanding in our divination. The flexibility of the Oracle answers are quite remarkable, whatever our attitudes and perspectives or how they change our Oracles manage to still work.

The more you focus upon how you are changing and what you now are looking for from your Oracles, the quicker you will find the next perspective that will work best for you.

Frank
 

rodaki

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. . talking of more structural approaches, I don't think they have to be an either/or thing, they do add more detail though, making the reading more complex, more well-rounded too . .

In addition to transitional hexagrams, I wonder if people have tried, or are using the XOR method at all . . not the whole system that Chris Lofting has suggested, but the idea that the changing lines point to a third hexagram which works like a catalyst in changing the first to resultant . . I have found that it often sheds light on my readings and at times it seems to explain contradictions between the original and the transitional lines

. . for example, I asked a question abt a call for proposals I received, for a project that's going to take place next summer and got

14.5,6 to 43
which looks just great at first sight . .
transitional hexagrams though add a different twist cause they take me from
14.5 to 1.6 to 43

so there's a 6th line with contradictory aspects, on the one hand 1.6 -generally a no-no - and on the other, 14.6 -a seemingly great line . . grmph (scratching head . .)
so next I tried the XORing hex, which is 20 . . ties in nicely with my question which is abt taking part in a conference, thinking thru my ideas and presenting them . .
on a further note, 20's 6th line seems also to tie in nicely with the crux here . .
from the Wilhelm translation/commentary:

Contemplation of his life.
The superior man is without blame.

While the preceding line represents a man who contemplates himself, here in the highest place everything that is personal, related to the ego, is excluded. The picture is that of a sage who stands outside the affairs of the world. Liberated from his ego, he contemplates the laws of life and so realizes that knowing how to become free of blame is the highest good.

so the three approaches (like 3 pairs of eyes on the reading) seem to give further insights on the answer, telling me that this can work out in the best way if I manage to make a contribution that will be supported from the detached and genuine observation of the theme of the conference, rather than some empty show of self-centered thought . . Still, this is not a way that I use every time nor does it work so smoothly with every reading, but it has helped in the past in getting a better picture . .

so I wonder if more experienced readers see this adding up of perspectives as a valid way in digging around the answer to understand it better, or if you have used it at all
. . or is it better to stick with a simpler approach?
 
M

meng

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So should one decide ahead of time that that is how he will be reading the lines in order for the Oracle to know what results to present to him?

I see no harm in deciding the particular method before letting her fly. The same way as deciding ahead of time which side of a coin is which.

But I understand also what Luis has said. The answer is the answer and it's up to us to flesh it out however we can.
 

fkegan

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Hi All,

The range of techniques expanding to give ever more line commentaries to consider raises the question of what limits the possible good or bad implications in all these lines that accumulate. There is a context to every Oracle which is made up of both the question and the answer.

In the example of the proposal for a project next summer, hopefully the question is limited to counsel on what to focus upon now in preparing the current effort since so many things, including the work on the proposal will influence everything next summer. Within that context, some sort of cautionary note about what to avoid would be helpful and doing whatever is required to find that a plus.

From the structure of the Oracle answer, in the context of the question, the result is that it is all about developing the overall organization (line five filling in) and expressing the transition to the Next (line 6 moving Yang) or what the project next summer would require and then moving to the resultant where the process is full of forward momentum (5 Yang lines) with the actual Next event open to future possibilities and opportunities.

With that as background, then you can work through all the text of all the lines of all the possible interim hexagrams to find detailed bits of counsel or caution in your reading. The problems arise when you find in your various additional hexagram lines not just cautionary text, such as 'arrogant dragon will have cause for regret,' definitive slogans such as 'misfortune' or 'calamity' and also 'good fortune' or even 'no blame' etc.
None of the slogans are guaranteed as results. Each has a context in terms of what is going on with that line that is being counseled in that way.

Once one gets a sense of what the overall message of the Oracle answer is for you, then you can further flesh out the details with all these additional texts. It is coming to that meaning or sense of what the Oracle is all about that is the difficult step, often made more difficult by the connotations we imagine for the words of text. Each of us come to our own method to find that overall meaning. The structural approach eliminates the text issues; however, it adds its own issues of translating the literal question into process symbolism which many folks find difficult.

So, which approach one chooses is mostly a personal choice to be determined by what yields YOU the best results in your own quest to benefit from your Oracles.

Frank
 
M

meng

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Just a rough preliminary sampling seems to show that the traditional method is more directly answering to the immediate situation, while the transitional method goes one step further, longer or deeper, sort of as an addendum.
 

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